268 - Sex Worker Rights with Alice Little
Alice Little, sex entrepreneur, sex positive influencer, and vocal activist for sex worker rights, was able to join us this week as our guest. Alice is the highest earning licensed sex worker at the Moonlite BunnyRanch, a legal brothel in Carson City, Nevada. She has founded the group “Hookers for Healthcare,” a political action group that fights for healthcare rights and policies that benefit sex workers, and co-founded the Nevada Brothel Association to help protect and advocate for the women who work in the legal brothels in Nevada.
During this episode, Alice expands on her own views of polyamory, and goes into detail about:
Hookers for Healthcare
Misconceptions about sex workers
Sex positivity in society
The non-sexual side of sex work
What makes a good client
Sex education and sex communication classes/coaching
Listen to the full episode for Alice’s unique and strong perspective on these topics, and visit her website at thealicelittle.com to learn more about her and her work!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're talking to sex entrepreneur and influencer Alice Little. She's the highest-earning licensed sex worker at the world-famous Moonlight BunnyRanch Legal Brothel in Carson City, Nevada. Alice is also an outspoken advocate for sex worker rights and a vocal champion for an all-inclusive sex-positive society. Alice founded the political action group, Hookers for Healthcare to fight for healthcare policies that benefit sex workers and other stigmatized groups. She's also the co-founder of the Nevada Brothel Association, a political action committee that advocates for the rights of women working in Nevada's Legal Bordellos. Alice, thank you so much for joining us today.
Alice: Thank you so, so much for having me. I am so excited to chat with you all.
Emily: Yes, we've talked a little bit before we started recording this episode and you said that you are currently single, but when I first was introduced to you, it was on the skinny confidential podcast and on that episode you said that you identify as polyamorous. I'm interested with that like do you feel like that specific relationship configuration allows for more ease in your job?
Alice: Without a doubt. Just the knowledge and understanding that polyamory gives when it comes to establishing multiple, unique, multifaceted relationships with more than one individual really comes in handy both personally as well as professionally. I always long had the stance that love shouldn't be limited and it just goes hand-in-hand with what I do professionally now.
Emily: Yes, that totally makes sense.
Dedeker: Definitely.
Jase: Yes, it seems like polyamory already involves a certain amount of like questioning and dismantling some of the assumptions people have about how much ownership they have over a partner's body and mind and heart and stuff like that. It does seem like it would, at least, if someone were already polyamorous, they would at least have started questioning some of those things so that then something like sex work doesn't feel like as much of a threat to everything that they hold sacred about relationships.
Alice: Absolutely so and it's particularly interesting when you look at the origins of relationship monogamy and why that was such a concept in the first place and it really doesn't have any relevancy in 2020 yet we still hold it so near and dear to our hearts and if you ask most people what was the origin of monogamy, they probably couldn't tell you.
Dedeker: Right, it is also that kind of thing that we're so set up for it to be a default that a lot of us don't really even get a choice in the matter that I think I get filled with the question all the time and I'm sure that you did also of like when did you choose to be polyamorous? How did you get into polyamory? But we don't really ask people like, how'd you get into that crazy monogamy that you're doing?
Alice: It's really true and people always expect it to be this like long-winded dramatic-- well you see, and it's like actually my first relationship was with two other women when I was in high school before we even knew the word polyamory existed, we're just like, hi, I like you and you like you and you like her and yes, we should do this. Eventually, I came to find the polyamory community and learned a little bit more about the do's, the don'ts. There's so much great literature out there now, it's wonderful.
Emily: You were polyamorous even before you became a sex worker?
Alice: Yes, I sure was. I also was involved in the kink community as an educator. I actually had spoken at a polyamory conference back in 2014 and one is really, really fun. I enjoyed it so much so and so transitioning to full-service sex work was like a duck to water, like cool, I can totally do this, this suits me so, so well.
Jase: Right, and already having those skills of presenting stuff in like an educational format, I think that really actually makes a lot of sense why then you went on to found the Nevada Brothel Association and become an advocate for sex workers.
Alice: Yes, it's funny. I used to be such a painfully shy kid, like sweaty palms, but I would stand up in front of the class with this little heigh speech super like meek freaked out voice and I took a few public speaking classes in school and that really helped bring me out of my shell.
Emily: I can imagine.
Dedeker: Nice.
Jase: Wow, that's all it took was public speaking courses? That's amazing.
Alice: Just multiple, multiple public speaking courses.
Jase: Wow. Okay, we were curious to start out what would you say because you probably talked about this a lot. What are the most common misconceptions that people have about sex workers and what's the truth?
Alice: The most common misconception is that consensual sex work does not exist and the assumption that all sex work must be coerced or forced, and that is so far from reality, it is not even funny. Unfortunately, there's this conflation between sex work and sex trafficking and the two are not the same thing. Sex work is inherently by default, a consensual choice that somebody is making to enter into this space and offer these emotional services. Whereas sex trafficking by very nature is anything that is coerced, forced, pressured, manipulated, it falls under that umbrella.
They're very, very different groups and when you try and combine the two, you do both groups are really grave disservice and it doesn't allow for services to authentically be offered to survivors of sex trafficking nor does it allow for there to be services available to just sex workers in general.
Dedeker: Right, it's like these two populations to a certain extent, maybe there's a little bit of overlap in like the services that they might need or like the support that they might need, but it's like really at the end of the day, two completely different populations with two very distinct sets of needs I'd imagine.
Alice: Absolutely, you figure for trafficking victims, the goal is to move them into a more comfortable, safe position. Allow them to find employment outside of the industry and really focus on rehabilitation from the trauma that they've experienced and take care of any psychological needs, any medical needs, et cetera. Whereas if you're looking at someone that's a sex worker, their needs are going to be so greatly different. They're going to need things like ongoing STD and STI testing. They're going to need access to banking systems so this way they can fund their own retirement.
They're not looking to get out of the industry, they're the ones who chose to be in it in the first place. They don't want to be "saved" and that's something that has been a real chronic narrative especially right now. There's been a couple of difference, I'll use the term very loosely here, nonprofits that offers services to "sex workers", but they assume that all sex work is coerced and forced and therefore has zero services actually available for sex workers. They're there to support sex trafficking victims who by all means absolutely deserve support, but please don't do it under the guise of support for sex workers. Very, very different.
Dedeker: I'm curious, with these nonprofits that have been maybe not quite so helpful for people who are actually sex workers, are there practices like offering support only contingent upon you exiting the industry or things like that? Is that kind of-- I imagine that that might be somewhere where some of that the negative impacts of the messaging being unclear might come from?
Alice: Very much so the one group locally that I've had run in when defending the legality of Nevada Brothels misused 501C three nonprofit funds is to run 67 paid Facebook ads campaigning to close the brothels down in order to save the women and it's like hold off a minute here, they're actually costing the county 101 paid employee positions, not to mention the 130 licensed sex workers you'd also be putting out of work. How exactly do you plan to recompense 230 odd displaced workers in a rural county in which there's very limited work opportunities? Please, do tell me how that helps anyone.
Dedeker: Like who are you saving here, really?
Jase: Right.
Emily: Yes, absolutely.
Alice: It was really frustrating. To now see that same group choose to take this "opportunity" of the coronavirus, COVID-19, to try and convince girls to forsake the brothels and find the light in Jesus Christ is a little bit misplaced and misguided.
Emily: I would say so. Goodness.
Dedeker: That's another thing. I didn't even think about that. I'm sure the same way that we see these really deceptive crisis pregnancies under that are usually Christian-funded and Christian-driven that are deceptive in what services they offer. I imagine that there must be same thing with the people trying to support sex trafficking victims. That it's like there's the ones that have an agenda or maybe the ones that don't have an agenda. Gosh, sorry. Now I'm just newly disgusted.
Alice: That's a really relevant connection to make because they are not dissimilar in the way that they presented themselves as being there and beneficial and wonderful and helpful, and actually, no, not so much. It's just been a real point of personal frustration because dancers, sex workers, so many of us pay into our taxes. We run little, small businesses. Many of us have LLCs, and yet, we can't get any of the grants that are available for small businesses.
We're being specifically excluded from that. We are excluded in most states for receiving the unemployment benefits that are being extended to independent contractors. Supposedly, the State of Nevada is going to offer coverage for the legal sex workers, but I haven't spoken to a single sex worker that has successfully managed to apply for and get unemployment at this time. We're being told we have to call into the phones.
Emily: That's impossible. I know, personally it's impossible.
Alice: I called 153 times. I literally had it on my phone 153 times. It's clearly not viable support for somebody who is existing at a level where the need is going to be higher. I can't even fathom what single mothers are supposed to be doing in this scenario. It just runs really deep. I'm still a little bit speechless at the fact that they so specifically were careful to exclude sex work in the sex industry from support.
Dedeker: Talk about extreme insult to injury at a time like this.
Alice: Really? That's the route that you want to go? That's the choice that you want to make right now? I'm sorry. There was this woman. Her name is Stormy Daniels. Did you, dear Sir President, possibly maybe have relations with this sex worker? Oh, you did, didn't you?
Emily: Yes, absolutely.
Jase: I don't want us to go down a whole political rabbit hole on this particular episode. We all so easily could. We're on our way to that. There's a lot to be said here about when there's a crisis, what happens to anyone who's already even remotely disenfranchised just gets tossed out the window. Even to the point of looking at the way that wage workers are treated by the companies who employ them in order to save themselves. There's a lot of bad things. I don't want to go down that road all the way right now. I actually was wondering if you could clarify some stuff for us.
Alice: For sure.
Jase: I know for me, a few years ago, when I first learned the term sex work, in my mind that meant specifically prostitution. I have come in the years since then to learn that actually sex work applies to quite a wide range of things. I was wondering, for our listeners who might be in a similar position to me, what is that range? Could you give us a sense of the lay of the land of what sex work means?
Alice: Sure. I like to think of sex work almost as an umbrella term, which is fitting because umbrella is the sign for supporting sex workers. Each spoke of the umbrella represents a different type of service. In the full service spoke, you have full service sex work, which can look like full-on prostitution, which is legal in Nevada. That could look like full contact dancing. That could look like full BDSM sessions sometimes could fall under the umbrella term of "full service". Anything that's based one to one physical interaction in person, I put under the full service category.
Then you have your virtual category. These are going to be your cam girls, your phone sex operators, only fans you're going to see, personal content creators, ladies that are doing photoshoots and selling those through websites such as Suicide Girls. That's your digital space. Then you also have a few niches within the digital space too where you can have online financial domination. You can have an online girlfriend experience. You could have online tease and denial session. There's a lot of different ways that the digital sphere can go.
Then you also have your technological side of sex work. Those are going to be people who are designing sex toys, sex products, and sort of harnesses, leather smiths, boot blacks for the leather community. That's going to be under your technical sex work sphere. Then, you have your educational sphere. I personally consider sex educators to be under the umbrella of sex workers because they often times are stigmatized and limited in much the same fashion, and often times there's overlaps between the educators and the sex workers, whereas sex education is still a type of sex work.
That can look like folks going to different national level conferences like I used to do. Folks on the online space. People creating YouTube videos. There's lot of different ways like podcasts that fall under the sex sphere could technically fall under the sex work umbrella. It's a really broad term. It's very inclusionary rather than exclusionary. There's another concept that's really important to be aware of in the wide umbrella of sex work. It's called "whoreharchy".
Jase: Whoreharchy.
Emily: What's that?
Alice: The whoreharchy.
Emily: Whoreharchy. Okay.
Alice: The whoreharchy is the internal stigmatization of one group of sex works to another group of sex workers.
Dedeker: People love doing that, though.
Emily: People like doing that just in general things.
Dedeker: Any of us who are attached to relatively sex positive, we love looking at the next person over and being like, "My sex positivity isn't as gross as their sex positivity." We love doing that.
Alice: It's so toxic. To say that I'm "better" because I'm a phone sex operator and not a cam girl. I'm better because I'm a cam girl and not a full service provider. I would never sell nude photos online. Calm down. Let's not sex work shame here. It's just like kink shame. Your kink is not my kink, and that's totally okay. Your work is not my work. That's great. It doesn't mean we need to create this internalized pyramid of privilege. Come on. We're already marginalized enough, gang. Let's just stop that real quick. Double tap the breaks.
Emily: Yes, absolutely.
Dedeker: It's so interesting how that happens. This is my first time being introduced to the term whoreharchy, which I love. Not as a concept but as a term.
Alice: It's hysterical. I love the term. Down with the whoreharchy. Are you kidding me? That's a t-shirt waiting to be made.
Dedeker: It's so interesting how we do see that happen across marginalized groups where we all learn to internalize our own misogyny or our own racism or our sex negativity to the point where we can come to a place of accepting ourselves and maybe accepting our little in-group who are into the same stuff that we're into, and yet we're still so trained to do that othering and to put ourselves on the hierarchy and figure out where do we fall in the pecking order, and as long as I know who's above me and who's below me, then I'm going to be safe.
It's so interesting that it's like the work almost goes halfway there when it comes to work of either removing marginalization and stuff like that. It's just fascinating to think about.
Alice: Yes and I always feel the need to speak up about it because I am a very, very, very privileged sex worker and I can absolutely acknowledge that I get to work legally in a safe environment. I'm the most successful person in my industry. I am a very privileged individual and I am not better than a cam girl or a phone sex worker or a street-based sex worker. No, there is no state law. There is no this is better than that one. That conversation, that narrative really needs to go away if we're ever going to see progress made for rights for everyone.
It's not just about me. It's about we in a sense. We as sex workers, we as people in the adult industry all need to collaborate and work together to ensure that we all are going to be given fair rights and opportunities.
Emily: Absolutely. To go along with that, I am interested in what you created, which is Hookers for Healthcare. I want to talk a little bit about your work in creating that and what you're hoping to achieve with that movement.
Alice: That's like my baby. That's like my passion project right there.
Emily: That's awesome.
Alice: I decided to go with Hookers for Healthcare to be really, really, really flashy. I wanted people to stop and be like, wait, what? Really? They're really calling themselves? I know it's a slashing word and it's intentionally so. Back when it was first started, when I went to go and obtain health insurance for myself, there were no options other than a bad health share market for independent contractors in the adult entertainment space. We were specifically excluded from all opportunities for coverage which--
Emily: Even though it was legal?
Alice: Yes.
Emily: It is legal.
Alice: Yes. We had zero options and as a result, I decided to do something about it, so I turned to my coworkers and said, all right, cool. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to get together and we're going to write some letters and we're going to make some phone calls and then we're going to put on a little demonstration. We are going to campaign for additional insurance providers to enter this space and offer our services because we are valid, we are legal, and we deserve the same damn health rights as everybody else. Are you getting me? Is this a joke that we have to do this right now?
We decided to make it as impactful and as well in everyone's face as possible. We put together a whole bunch of signs, March down the center of Carson City, which is the capitol with red umbrellas and signs calling for healthcare. Healthcare is a human right, et cetera. We went hard and as a result, three different providers entered the space to offer services to legal sex workers in Nevada.
Dedeker: Wow.
Jase: That's awesome.
Alice: We didn't just get coverage, we got options, which was as good as it gets.
Emily: That's amazing.
Alice: Since then it's shifted focus to match sex workers to their right insurance plan. Because, let's be honest here, the healthcare marketplace is kind of a hellscape.
Dedeker: Just kinda, just a little bit, I would say. Just a .
Alice: I can't think of a better word for it. It's like nightmarish beyond words like hold on, I think it got hives popping up. I feel like I'm allergic to it. It is such a complex and nuanced thing, especially when you're looking for multi-person coverage for those that have kids or family, there's so many different factors. What level of coverage? What kind of coverage? Now the organization helps to guide sex workers through the jungle, if you will, and make sure that everybody knows how to get coverage and understands what it actually means.
Just recently, I reactivated Hookers for Healthcare because the special period was opened up here in Nevada to allow all Nevadans access to healthcare if they hadn't previously signed up for insurance. We seized that window of opportunity, reached out to every single girl in the industry and said, hi, if you don't have coverage yet, we want to help you get the coverage you need. Unfortunately, we can't pay for it. We don't have the ability to make a union and create a group plan at this time because we are independent contractors but by all means, I will hold your hand and help you navigate this mess.
Emily: Wow.
Jase: Yes, that's really cool.
Dedeker: Have you had thoughts about what is the feasibility of being able to unionize? I feel like a lot of people are going to scoff at that idea but I'm just like if you're able to mobilize around Hookers for Healthcare and like actually get stuff done, I'm like that feels pretty encouraging as far as being able to come together as a group and secure more rights for yourselves.
Alice: Absolutely. Part of the challenge is that every single brothel operates under its own set of laws, which are dictated by the individual counties. The legislation for Lyon County is not the same as the legislation for Nye County, which is different than Storey County on and on and on. As a result, every single individual location really has different needs. The girls have different levels of things that they would like access to. For example, we recently were able to overturn a policy, ironically enough called lockdown.
We started a little group as, stoplockdown.org to defeat what was a 24-hour doctor's ordinance in Nye County which essentially required the ladies to stay at the brothel location for the duration of their work period. If they left for more than 24 hours, their doctor's clearance would expire. They would then have to return, pay a fee, retest, wait, and then be unable to work until the results came back in, which pretty much just forced the girls to stay there 24/7 for two to three weeks on end and which is unacceptable in 2020.
Jase: Yes. Wow.
Emily: Oh my goodness.
Alice: Ironically enough, we managed to get that Nye County ordinance thrown out the window just in time for the whole wide world to be put in lockdown. Hurrah, we did it.
Emily: And didn't have to stay there for 24 hours, seven days a week so here we are. That's amazing. Wow.
Alice: There was definitely a good chuckle that happened afterwards. The like, Hey, stop lockdown or you guys, we're not really relevant anymore. We need to rethink the messaging here guys. Kind of, oops. Oops.
Dedeker: I want to switch gears a little bit. You've talked about advocating for an all-inclusive sex-positive society and so far in our conversation, I think that we've hinted at that a little bit, but I want to hear, can you tell us what that means to you and what that would look like?
Alice: For me, that looks like sex education acceptance and services at all ages and all levels. By this I mean quality sex education that's relevant to the specific grade level of the child. We need sex education that's appropriate for kindergarten. What's a good touch, what bad touch. That's important. That's an important conversation. We need to talk to kids about that. Then there needs to be puberty related sex education. There needs to be sex related sex education, STD and STI, sex education.
Then for adults, we need to have things that educate about foreplay, consent, kink, all available at this very public level and able to be obtained to no different than a college education. Additionally, we need to see the legalization as well as decriminalization of sex work across the country from state to state. The reason why we need both the decrim and legalization is because the illegal system isn't necessarily going to serve those that are most marginalized.
Not everyone is going to be interested or able to participate in a legal system. As such, we need to go ahead and decriminalized much in the same way that with marijuana we're seeing it both legalized and decriminalized simultaneously seem too is it a harm reduction method for the overall health and welfare of Americans? I don't want to say just women because realistically, there are sex workers that are men, there are sex workers that are trans, there's sex workers that are queer and non-binary and right now the only place to do legal full-service sex work is in Nevada, which is only available to those that have the female gender marker, which is of course limited.
Jase: I didn't realize that. That that's actually part of it. Wow.
Alice: It is.
Emily: Wow.
Alice: There unfortunately are no opportunities for men legally in Nevada and if you were trans, my understanding is that only certain counties allow for male to female trans workers, but you have to have your name changed in your gender-confirming surgery, you need to have the gender markers on your passport, your birth certificate, your driver, the whole ordeal.
Jase: Wow, I had no idea.
Alice: It's a lot.
Emily: Wow.
Alice: That means a lot of people don't have access to a safe workspace, and I have a huge problem with that and I want to do something about it.
Emily: Oh my goodness.
Dedeker: Yes. My goodness. I know that at the time of recording we're all on lock-down.
We're all having to adjust to the new normal and once this thing blows over, we don't know what normal is going to be after that, but once this blows over, what for you feels like are the next steps as far as pushing us forward towards this all-inclusive sex positive society?
Alice: I think we can all agree that our economy is going to be hurting tremendously on the other end of this and as a result, many people are going to need to be innovative in order to generate enough tax income for this country to be able to sustain itself. Much in the same way that nationally legalizing marijuana would be a good choice. I believe that nationalize or nationally legalizing sex work and decriminalizing sex work is a really intelligent move to make right now because it creates a new industry that can have an excise tax on it, tax us an extra 15% please, please do, that is worth it for rights.
If we were to turn around and make marijuana legal in all 50 states and then make sex work legal in all 50 states, that would look like multiple billions of dollars entering the economy right now. I think it would be enough to put us back on track. It would make a tremendous difference because it opens up so much enterprise across so many levels, not just for the workers. It creates work for web designers, graphics designers, marketers, podcasters, you name it.
The industry is so large that there would be so much opportunity available there that jobs could be created, market share could be opened up like, it has so much possibility that I'd love to see on the other end of this, people at least having a conversation about what would it look like, how could we start doing this? And just accepting that as a possibility is really the next step.
Right now, most people don't even have that on their radar as an option because it is so limited, nationally legalizing marijuana, most states now have it available either recreationally or medically so that's not super outlandish whereas the idea of proposing sex work at a national level is still kind of like, ooh, cul-clash to a certain degree. There's a lot that has to happen before then. Education, awareness, de-stigmatization of sex workers by like sharing their real human stories in a way that isn't being censored by the media.
We need people to understand who sex workers are and what sex workers actually do in order for us to be able to take those next steps. I've set doing my small part by continuing to talk to legislators, answering their questions, making the bill proposal suggestions, offering to talk to students, answer interview questions, help them with their term papers around sex work. I do anything and everything I can to help be a voice in the right direction.
Dedeker: It seems like a big philosophical hurdle that I see is how do we get ourselves past this big wall of denial and it's like the denial that the majority of us engage in some kind of-- the majority of us benefit from some kind of sex work essentially upon release of the entire pretty much the entire country watching pornography. Two things, like you said, whether you're ordering a sex toy from someone who's designed one or you're a sex educator, stuff like that.
It's like how do we move ourselves past this huge denial that none of us benefit from sex work and it's this tiny fringe thing that only the weirdos in the corner actually take part in and I think that's the thing that's been so baffling to me in the past few years is that we have the data for porn hub of everyone out there is kinky all hell and clearly we're all interested in sex and we're sexual beings and yet it's this big blind spot, there's big black hole of denial, that's the first thing that comes to my mind is before we can take any action forward, it's how do we get people on board with that of just dropping that curtain of denial?
Alice: I barely think education is going to be so significant and unfortunately at this point in time, only 13 of the 50 states require a sex education to be scientifically accurate.
Emily: That's horrifying.
Jase: Yes, really.
Alice: Everybody's making a cringed face right now and it's so real. I feel it in my soul every time I hear that statistic, I'm like, "Oh make it stop." They can teach the stork story as if it's scientifically true.
Jase: Wow.
Alice: Think about that and then we wonder whether it's such high instances of teenage pregnancy, gee, I wonder.
Jase: Wow, so we want to move on in the last half of the episode here to talk a little bit more about you and your story and things like that but before we get to that, we're going to take a quick break to talk about how you can support this show as well as maybe find some great community for yourself.
We want to talk a little bit about your business, Alice, as well as how it ties to the bigger picture of creating a more sex positive world and educating people and things like that. Something, when you talk about having a sex positive world, I think the people who are scared by those words tend to think that that means a world where we all have to have sex. They just think sex equals coercion maybe in general because maybe that's how it is.
Dedeker: And be forced to come to the orgy.
Alice: Oh no, they're going to open their mailbox and dildos are going to fall out. The horror.
Dedeker: That sounds fun.
Alice: Yes, it's sex toys.
Jase: Those things are expensive to just get them delivered for free.
Alice: That'd be awesome. There's that stimulus that I'm waiting for from the government.
Emily: Two hundred dollars worth of dildos. Love it.
Jase: The government's like, we want you all to stay at home so we're sending you all sex toys so you can .
Dedeker: Now y'all scoff but the Japanese government has up to this point been sending money to its citizens. It's equivalent of $80 a day or something like that but there was a politician that proposed, "Hey, we can't keep doing this. Maybe we should switch to sending people wagyu beef as a stimulus for the rest of this." So that was actually floated as an actual proposal and the Japanese government so I'm just saying the dildos stimulus is maybe not too ridiculous.
Alice: I was supposed to be in Japan right now at the time we're just saying.
Jase: We were too.
Alice: Oh my God, are you serious?
Jase: Yes, they speak now.
Emily: They speak Japanese pretty fluently.
Alice: Yes, I was so sad, they cancelled it.
Emily: Where is that? In Tokyo?
Jase: It's outside of Tokyo a little bit.
Alice: I was supposed to be there like this is supposed to be my second to last day and oh God, that's crazy that you all were supposed be there too .
Dedeker: We were supposed to be there for a couple of months.
Jase: Yes, we could have been recording this episode in person.
Emily: Oh, you're right. Oh my gosh. That's so funny.
Dedeker: Well, maybe next year.
Alice: Oh all right, we will have to do a Tokyo reunion party or something crazy.
Emily: Yes, I guess.
Jase: What I was trying to get to before we got to this thing about dildo stimulus is that I think something that many people might find surprising about a more sex positive society is that by de-stigmatizing conversations about sex and not making sex into such a loaded thing, that it actually frees up a lot more opportunity to not have sex if you don't want to and something that I found really interesting on your site about your different offerings is you specifically have one that's the non-sexual girlfriend experience.
I thought that was really interesting because I think a lot of people would not expect to see that on a sex worker's offerings. Right? Just have specifically a non-sexual experience at all. I was really curious what inspired you to create that and what is the response to that?
Alice: A lot of people have experienced sexual trauma on all sorts of levels and oftentimes they're still looking for intimate connection and companionship but not necessarily that sexually charged element. The problem is when we date in the, let's call it vanilla landscape, there's this assumption that sex is always inevitably a part of a relationship and some people want a relationship without sex and that's perfectly valid.
As a result of that, I've had the opportunity to connect with a number of folks, men as well as women and a couple of folks that are non-binary as well, that simply want to have nice quality companionship, cuddling, watching the movie, going out to dinner, doing a shared activity like horseback riding or bowling and not have that sexual pressure come into the equation.
Jase: Right and to have that be from the start that there's not going to then suddenly they're going to expect sex from you. I think actually is a big relief sometimes to not have that looming pressure that you might get in the "vanilla" dating world, where it's like they might say they're fine but eventually they're going to want that. They'll be disappointed if I don't and they'll break up with me, all those concerns .
Alice: Exactly, that just gets thrown right out the window and instead you actually get to get your needs met rather than having this voice in the back of your head like, "No, no." This is almost a form of self care in a way because intimate needs on the spectrum are still a need. Whether it'd be a need for sex or whether it'd be a need for companionship, we are at the end of the day designed to be together. We're social creatures. Isolation is not the norm for us, which is why I think the situation right now is so particularly poignant for so many people. We're being deprived of one of the very things that makes us human, which is that intimate connection.
Dedeker: Yes, and layering that on top of just the collective trauma and anxiety of a pandemic combined with isolation, which is literally-- Isolation is literally the worst punishment we give to human beings. It's like putting people in solitary confinement. I hope all of us come out of this just with a lot more mental emotional resilience, having gone through the fire essentially.
Emily: Yes. It is testing our resilience for sure right now. When I was speaking to my partner, who I am quarantined with right now about getting the opportunity to talk to you, Alice, I asked him like, "What would you ask her? Is there anything? Just a lay person, what would you be interested in?" He said to ask you what makes a good client. Are there certain scenarios, certain people-- whatever makes a good client so that the scenario was better for both of you.
Alice: Absolutely. A client etiquette is arriving in person freshly showered. You don't have to dress to the nines by any means. Please, do make yourself comfortable, but shower, scrub under your nails. It's actually a really good idea to not brush your teeth right before you go to the ranch and instead just use mouth wash because you don't want your gums bleeding. A lot of people think it's the opposite and it's like, no, mouth wash. Brush your teeth before you get into the shower and get ready. Do that first.
I figure it can be a good idea to walk into the scenario having some idea about what you'd like to experience. Even if it's just an emotional description like, "I want to feel safe, warm and connected," versus, "I want something that’s hot and intense." Even if you can only describe the feeling, have something to describe what it is you're looking for. Otherwise, it's like spitting the river like are we thinking schoolgirl cosplay and we're going to role-play and get naughty or are we wanting to sit down and have a romantic dinner? There's a broad spectrum of different things that you can do here.
Knowing what you would like and bringing that to the table is certainly helpful. Trying to think what else, other things. Just being polite, kind, courteous. Really come as you are. Sex work is the celebration of who you are as a person, not having to prop yourself up and pretend to be somebody that you're not. I never ask people to do something that feels unnatural to them. If you don't wear a suit and tie, please don't put on a suit and tie for me.
I want to be with you. Now, if we decide that part of our time together is going to look like we're going to go out to a red carpet-type event and we're going to get dressed up and I'm going to be wearing this over-the-top dress, and you're going to be in a suit and tie, let's just talk about it. Other than that, please be comfortable. It's supposed to be a fun, enjoyable experience, not an anxiety inducing one.
Dedeker: When you were talking about having some idea of what you want, like coming in and even being able to communicate the emotional or the feeling side of it, that leads me to my next question, which is I saw also in your site that you offer specifically sexual communication education for couples specifically. I really wanted to know more about what inspired you to begin offering that.
Alice: One skill that I have acquired as a legal sex worker is quality communication when it comes to intimate topics. I don't flinch when talking about sex. Sexual activity, whether it'd be things we want to try or things that we're maybe afraid of happening, like dysfunctions. What I bring into the table is a normalcy to those conversations that would otherwise be really challenging to have.
Many people wouldn't feel comfortable just going to their therapist and talking about erectile dysfunction concerns or foreplay issues, whereas I'm somebody that is very comfortable talking about these things in a confidential manner, then I'm able to model how to have those conversations with your partner, so it becomes a life skill you get to take home with you just how to initiate sex in a way that doesn't feel pressuresome.
Now that you're having sex, here's how to find out what sorts of things feel good. There are some phrases you can use, here's some body language, things to be aware of. If you want to know does that feel good instead of saying, "Do you like it?" 8,000 times, here's how to ask in maybe a more descriptive way, tell me how that feels. Are you enjoying yourself? Show me what feels nice, et cetera, because nobody wants to hear, do you like it? Do you like it? Do you like it? Do you like it? Like that endless porno loop. Knock a door just now. That's bad. That's bad bedroom talk. We can do better, guys. I promise.
Dedeker: That intimate communication, it really feels to me like one of the most empowering things that you can do for your own sexuality and for your own sexual pleasure, because we're just so not given scripts for that at all or even told that it's okay. I think that's the big thing because obviously in the movies it's like these people just magically know how to have sex.
Emily: And they're pretty silent during the entire encounter.
Dedeker: It seems to be so that's how it has to be. I know that for me even having been sexually active for a long time, I feel like it's only been a handful of years where I've actually been like, "Oh, I can actually communicate about this and actually get what it is that I want and learn what does my partner want." I don't know, that's just such a thing that I feel like it really is an important skill to be helping people build up.
Alice: It feels and sounds so radical but it shouldn't be. This should be a normal, healthy, accepted part of relationships but unfortunately our society has not set us up for that kind of intimate success. As a result, it really comes down to you choosing to go out there and seek that kind of serve us, which is-- part of the reason why I put it out there is, "Hi. This is an option and something that I can genuinely help with at a level that's going to be really impactful."
Even now during COVID-19, I've adopted all my services online purposes. I do a couple of couples, several couples that are chatting with me over webcam and taking the advantage of the fact that now they're at home together and they have this time. They're having these conversations and digging into those things that maybe they didn't have the time to prioritize otherwise.
Jase: Yes. I was also thinking about this, that probably another thing that you would bring to the table in that kind of education for couples is more of an experience of the variety of people in sex and sexual experiences. I think this is something that's true when you're learning any new thing. For a lot of people, unfortunately, sex maybe they've only had it with a handful of people in their life.
They've gotten to this point now where they're in their 40s or their 50s and they're finally like, "I've just somehow learned that it was possible to be having this better than I have been, but I have no frame of reference of what's normal. I don't know if what I'm struggling with is a normal thing or if something's wrong with me." I think that getting that perspective can be huge.
Alice: Absolutely. It's invaluable and life-changing because we have a pervasive worry that's constantly nagging at you. That has an impact.
Jase: Absolutely.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: I remember we had a guest a few weeks ago. We're just in passing, we're talking about sex parties and she was talking about how for most men their first several times at a sex party, they're not able to maintain an erection because of the nerves and just being overstimulated or whatever. That was absolutely my experience, but it was not something that anyone ever told me like, "Oh, yes, that's normal." So actually hear her say that-- I'd come to determine this on my own but it had been a little bit of a struggle when going through and being like, "What is this? Am I just too uptight in my nerves? What's happening?" and learning oh, that's actually very normal was just surprising.
I wasn't even looking for it but was like, "Wow, it was great to hear that. I feel a little better knowing that." I imagine you'd be able to offer a lot of that stuff to people.
Alice: Yes. It's so funny. Some of the questions that get asked are ones that many of us in the sex positive community, will obviously know the answer but not everybody has that same frame of reference like a real common one that I get especially from gentlemen that are over the age of 50 that have limited sexual experiences is I put something in my butt, it felt good, does this mean I'm gay?
Emily: Oh my goodness. Really?
Jase: I'm still surprised by that one but it's true.
Alice: Yes. Think about it. In that particular demographic, there was no education around what a prostate was that it felt good and the only association they have with anal activities is on the gay spectrum. They'd never been presented with that as an option before. That doesn't even enter their sphere of possibility and so, of course, they're going to respond from a place out of fear and ask like this fearful question first. It makes sense in a backwards way but it's a super common one and the answer, of course, is no, enjoying stuff up your butt does not make you gay. It makes you normal. You have a prostate, use it. It feels good.
Emily: Enjoy yourself.
Alice: Yes, it's there, you might as well enjoy it.
Emily: That sex education and sexual communication, that's one of the offerings that you have now due to COVID-19. Do you have other ones as well? Can you talk a little bit about that because you have as you said had to pivot away from doing in-person encounters?
Alice: I've adapted everything that I do in person for online. While we not might not be able to meet skin to skin, we can still be face to face. That means we can still do things like dinner dates. We can watch movies or Netflix together. We can have a romantic dinner or a picnic or go for a walk outside. I'll attach my phone and my bike. We can go bike riding together.
I want to encourage people to still enjoy that companionship level of connectedness. At the same time, we're still able to do lots of things intimately and sexually through digital technology. There's a webcam. There is even sex toys now that people can pair to their phones and use an app to control the other person's pleasure. I'm really taking advantage of and exploiting all of those technologies that we have available to us to be able to offer virtual girlfriend experience and virtual sex experiences for people in addition to the companionship too.
Jase: It's funny. I actually was just realizing as you were saying that that's something that if you don't already offer I think would be amazing is like a how-to video sex lesson for couples that are long-distance because I know that for a lot of people even though those of us who have done some kind of sexual thing over video chat, maybe there's a better way to do this. It feels weird like all that nervousness that comes up.
Alice: What's the right platform to use? Privacy concerns, if you get Skype for example. Don't get naked on Skype. You'll get kicked off. Don't do that.
Emily: I did not know that.
Alice: Skype is super anti-sex. Don't use Skype. Use an encrypted video service like Zoom or something similar. You don't want to just use Skype. Double check the terms and services because a lot of things are very anti-sex guys.
Emily: Yes. I didn't know that.
Jase: Right. Even just part of that lesson being about the security side of it just like things with Zoom that has all these security concerns, a lot of those are from people not setting it up securely and so it's like even just teaching people like, here's how you actually do this so that you know what's going on, what these things are and how do you do the sex part of it well like, where do you put your camera? What do you say? All that actually would be great to have.
Alice: Yes. That's a good idea.
Jase: For the people who are stuck long distance from their partners like Dedeker and I are right now.
Alice: Especially in the Poly Community, there's a lot of primary privilege conversations happening in regards to who gets to be quarantined together and that's the whole thing into itself. It's just challenging on every single level of relationships whether it be you're together with your loved one or away from your loved one. There is so many different challenges that are being faced right now on taking advantages of those that have expertise in those fields, it's going to make problem-solving go a lot faster. I promise.
Emily: Absolutely. Our final question that we wanted to ask is that we saw that you offer video game dates and we're all big gamers so I was just wondering like, what game?
Alice: Biggest nerd.
Emily: It's our way that we were just wondering like what games you're going to tell because we're all playing Animal Crossing a lot right now.
Alice: Damn. Shut up. I'm obsessed with that amazing adorable little game.
Emily: Yes. It's the perfect game right now. Truly.
Alice: I have enjoyed that with several people now because it allows for not necessarily multi-player but you're able to be on the same island and do stuff together so I've definitely been doing some Animal Crossing and chill. I am such a fan of Animal Crossing like, dammit, now it's like, hold on, I got to go water my flowers and get my hybrid black roses. We got to go fishing.
Jase: You know what? You can have a fishing date, a little Animal Crossing fishing date.
Alice: There's been some really cute Animal Crossing dates I've seen. I did a cherry blossom viewing date with someone because there is cherry blossoms in game right now. Since, I couldn't go to Japan, they got the little tea set and they set it up in game. It was so cute. It was the cutest, most wholesome use of Animal Crossing ever.
Emily: I love it. Oh, my goodness.
Dedeker: Alice, this has been fantastic. For our listeners, we're going to be sticking around and talking to Alice a little bit more on our bonus content today but before we do that Alice, can you let our listeners know where they can find more of you and your work?
Alice: Best place to find me on the web is through my website, thealicelittle.com. It'll have links to my Twitter, Instagram, Youtube as well as my Patreon account and for those that are interested in spending time with me during quarantine or even afterwards in person can reach me by email at alicelittle@thealicelittle.com.
Dedeker: Great. Excellent. For our bonus content today, we are going to be talking about sex work and cheating. Does going to a sex worker count as cheating? We're going to talk about Alice about an article that she wrote about this and answer some more questions related to that.