271 - The Power of Receiving "No"
Why is saying no so difficult?
There are some people who find refusing something or someone extremely difficult, for a variety of reasons:
Fear of missing out (FOMO)
Feeling as though you may not get another chance
Believing you may hurt the asker’s feelings
Fearing the asker may get mad
Believing they may not ask again when you want to say yes
Despite the difficulty, it’s healthy and a sign of a good relationship if you can say no to things you don’t want to do. This can absolutely include things like sex or sexual activities, but extends to any other activities as well.
“If you feel you cannot say no…then you are not being loved—you are being controlled.”
-Judith Stills, PhD
The usage of no is powerful. It can keep you from being taken advantage of, it lets people know where you stand, it makes your “yes” more meaningful, lets you focus on what really matters, and it can be the difference between a good experience for both parties involved and what feels like a consent violation.
How to get better
Practicing saying no is a valuable and critical skill. Some good ways to start are:
Start replacing an automatic “yes” with an “I’ll think about it,” or “I can’t commit to that yet.”
Be Zen. A clear, concise, unemotional no is most effective to use whenever possible.
Do it sooner rather than later if you know it’s the answer you want to give.
Don’t say “maybe later” if it’s not true.
Practice, and practice using it repeatedly. Some people are insistent and need to be told multiple times.
Receiving no
Sometimes hearing a no can be as hard as giving it, because sometimes we feel as though it means someone is saying no to us as a person, or that it means a failure. But it’s important to hear it sometimes, for these reasons:
In some situations, like applying for a job or a raise, being willing to hear it means asking for what you want.
It tells us what people want instead of making us guess.
In sales situations, it means you’re not stopping before the customer wants you to.
To get better at hearing no:
Remind ourselves that people aren’t saying no to us, just to a specific thing.
Respond to a no or a rejection with “Thanks for taking care of yourself.”
If applying to a job or in sales, set goals for numbers of no’s rather than yeses.
Making it harder
Sometimes we make it harder to tell no to, and there’s a difference between being easy to say no to and being manipulative. If you ask for something, then immediately follow it with something like “oh, I should never have asked, I’m terrible,” etc., then you’re in fact making it more difficult, instead of cultivating a sense of safety where people know you receive rejection or a no respectfully. This is vital for consent.
If you’re bad at receiving a no and want to improve, then try this:
Again, practice thanking people for taking care of themselves, and make sure you mean it.
Remember that even if you know that you would accept a no, others may not know that or believe it.
Be sure to communicate that saying no is an option.
Give the full episode a listen to learn more about the power of no!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're going to be talking all about one little word, no. We're not actually just going to be talking just about the word but more about the concept of saying no. I don't know if you have heard this out there. The power of no is this expression that's been around for a while, and it tends to come up in two different ways. On the one side, it's used in personal care and self-improvement ways, of the power of saying no to things that you don't want. It also comes up in terms of things like sales and negotiation and things like that, of that going for no, and pursuing what you want until you get the no, is another way that it comes up.
For this episode, we're going to explore each of those as well as a third, potentially even more powerful or at least magical, way that no can improve your life, which is specifically being a good receiver of no. That's a little bit different from the ways that it tends to be talked about in the zillion blogs out there that are written with the title, The Power of No, or something like that.
Dedeker: The funny thing is that when you sent me this episode, and I saw that it was titled The Power of No, I was like, "Did he misspell The Power of Now?"
That's my touchpoint to that phrase, is Eckhart Tolle book.
Jase: Right. That's good.
Dedeker: I actually wasn't familiar with this being a common phrase, the power of no. I was familiar with the concept of empowering people to say no and blogs floating around about here's what to do if you're someone who has a hard time saying, "No." I was familiar with that. This whole idea, of that as a phrase or as an idiom, is new to me.
Jase: There's various paraphrasings of it. I just went with the power of no because it was simple.
Emily: Various paraphrasings like what?
Jase: Things like the road to success is paved with the word, no, or you have to go through no to get to success, or, no, is the most powerful word you can say. There's various things but they all come down to this concept of saying no, or having others say no to you is important.
Dedeker: What about the power of gnomes?
Emily: I think that's something else entirely.
Jase: I like that. It's a different yes.
Emily: Like a garden gnome?
Dedeker: Yes. Jase has gone off on this whole tangent about things being magical.
Jase: Okay. Fair enough.
Emily: Apparently no was my first word, which is pretty funny considering that later on in life, I wasn't very good at saying it.
Jase: Really?
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: You used up a lot of your nos in your first couple years of being verbal.
Emily: It was because my mother, that was a word she used a lot with me. If I wanted to grab something or knock something over or do something that I shouldn't have been doing, she would be like, "No, no." Apparently that became my first word because I was so used to hearing it.
Jase: Sorry. This is not related at all.
Emily: No, please.
Jase: My little brother's-- One of his first words was, "Uh-oh," because that's what we would say anytime he would drop his binky, or drop something he had. We'd be like, "Uh-oh," and so he started referring to that as, uh-oh. If he wanted his binky, he'd be like, "Uh-oh. Uh-oh."
Dedeker: That's adorable.
Jase: It was really cute.
Emily: Jase, very adorable.
Dedeker: Let's bring it back. Jase, you want us to talk about this in three different arenas today, specifically about saying no. Let's start with just the power of being able to say no to people, to co-workers, to your boss, to your romantic partners, to that person on the street asking you to sign up for a subscription you don't want to sign up for
Emily: I've said yes to that in New York and it was awful. I was really pressured into someone telling me, "For $90 you can get your haircut at an exclusive salon in New York."
Dedeker: Oh, one of those salon packagey things.
Emily: I didn't know how to say no, so I gave her $90 and never used it, of course. Never used it. It was awful.
Dedeker: Oh, Em.
Emily: I know. It’s so me.
Dedeker: I'm not surprised at all though.
Emily: No, and I totally did. Someone came into the restaurant that I worked out too and was like, "Here teeth whitening and it's only 50 bucks. We're doing a special for people around here." I did it and I never used it also. Those were two terrible times of me saying yes, and just literally throwing away my money.
Jase: This is a good segue into the first thing we want to talk about this which is, why is it so hard to say no, sometimes? Emily?
Dedeker: Now you're on trial. because I think a lot of people have been in that situation. I've definitely been in that situation. This is a relatively, maybe low-ish stakes situation, depending. Why in those situations do you feel like it was so hard to say no?
Emily: I think initially that my first thing is like, "This person is doing-- This is literally their job right now." They have a job to do and they have to get money from people in this very roundabout way of talking about, "Oh, I love your hair. I love x, y & z thing about you, but I could definitely make it better by giving you this package deal of going to a salon or whatever." I guess at the time I felt a little bad. I'm like, "They're trying so hard to win me over and I don't want to be rude to them." I guess I'm just going to be kind and give them some money here and just do that, which, unfortunately, it led to nothing for me.
I think it's just difficult because it's hard when somebody is working hard to get you to do something to say no to them.
Jase: I think that you hit on a couple big ones there. One is that we don't want to hurt someone's feelings. We don't want to hurt someone else by saying no to them. Then also maybe a little bit of the, "Oh, maybe this is a good deal. I don't want to miss out, " or, "This might be my only chance to do this with this person or this might be my only chance to get a job in this field, so I better take it even though it doesn't seem like a good way." There's lots of different ways that could look or, "Maybe this is the only person who's going to want to date me this year, so I should say yes even if I'm not that interested."
I know it's funny, but it's super true. Actually it's funny when you're not in it, and it really sucks when you are.
Dedeker: It's hilarious when you're not in it, I have to say. I feel like
Emily: I think you're great at saying no probably.
Dedeker: You think I'm going to say no? I think in those situations of if someone's asking for my money, I'm pretty good at saying no, pretty good. Most of the time, pretty good. I just be like, "No, sorry. Not today." I have a hard time historically, with saying no to people, I think romantically. No, not necessarily for getting in relationships. I think that when I was very, very young, like a teenager, I would say yes to whole relationships that I really wasn't actually jazzed about. There was this fear of, "This is the only person interested in me and so I have to take this opportunity."
I think later in life, it's been more around-- I realized I have this weird thought process that sometimes comes up when people asked me out that it seems similar to your thought process, Emily, I was like, "Oh gosh, they went through this effort, and they put themselves out on a limb. It's scary to ask someone out, so I can't say no." That's completely self-directed coercion basically because even in situations where someone's not being a jerk, they're not being weird and coercive and pressuring or stuff like that, just being vulnerable and honest, there's still this internalized sense of, "It would just be rude to say no," which is something that a lot of humans struggle with, something that women struggle with specifically, this idea that saying no automatically equals your being a rude POS.
Wait, we can curse on this show, piece of shit. There we go.
Emily: Jase, don't get angry if we curse on this show.
Jase: No, curse away.
Dedeker: That's definitely something that I've struggled with for quite a while of how to actually say no because I think something that's attached to saying no, especially to romantic or sexual opportunities is this idea of you need to have a good enough reason. There's no way to just say no to someone, historically, especially women saying no to men because you're going to be expected to provide some proof or evidence or defend your choice. I feel that very much ingrained in me.
Jase: Yes, for sure. It comes up in other arenas, but I definitely feel with heterosexual relationships, that comes up a lot. That feeling of men feeling like women need a good enough reason, and usually, good enough means having a boyfriend or a husband and pretty much no other reason is acceptable. Almost as if it's this, "Obviously you would want to be with me because obviously you just would. If you're saying no, there's got to be a very compelling reason for why that is because that really sucks for you." It's just the amount of ego that's behind that is mindblowing.
I know I've talked to you about this a bunch. I just yesterday had a 40-minute phone conversation saying no to someone who wanted to buy ads on our show who just would not take no for an answer. It felt a lot like that thing of I needed to come up with a good enough reason. I was like, "I don't really want to be the one to have to give that to you, especially since you don't actually seem to want my feedback about your company and about what it is you're trying to do. You just want to talk enough so that you think you convince me. You're not actually interested in hearing what I have to say here." We were on the phone for 40-minutes because I didn't want to be mean or rude, but at the same time just kept, in different ways, saying no over and over again to this guy who just--
Emily: You would have had to truly hang up on this person in order to end the conversation any other way pretty much. Yes, I understand.
Jase: Yes, right. It comes up in a lot of arenas for sure.
Emily: Absolutely. We've all had to say no in various ways over the years for any number of reasons or had a really difficult time with that. Especially in my case, I am only now, maybe starting to become a little bit better at saying no, but why is it important and why is it powerful to say no to people?
Jase: Oh, boy, this one is so powerful. Let me just start off. I feel like one of the big ones, especially from the fear of saying no out of hurting someone's feelings or being rude or mean or being a POS as Dedeker said, that actually, ironically, I feel like it makes you a safer person. It makes you a more trustworthy person because people then start to learn that when you do say yes to something, you actually mean it. That can happen on the other side too of, "They said yes," or, "They didn't quite say no and I don't really know where they stand."
Whereas if you know that, "Oh, I know this person is able to say no when they want to say no. Cool, I can feel more confident in trusting what they say to me," that I feel like even if hearing a no can hurt, it's like in the long run, the stress it can create in your life and other people's lives by not saying no and also not quite saying yes or saying yes out of obligation can actually create a lot of stress all around. That maybe that short pulling the bandaid off of saying no, would avoid, I don't know. What do you think? That's just something I've noticed, and I do struggle with it too. That's something I've noticed.
Dedeker: I think the important thing to think about, especially in situations like you're talking about, Em, when someone's trying to get your money in some way or sell you something, a certain amount of sales, predatory sales tactics are based on the fact that they know that you feel like it's rude to say no.
Emily: Fascinating. I should keep that in mind more often.
That makes complete sense though.
Dedeker: You know?
Emily: Of course.
Dedeker: They know that if I've sat here and talked to you for 10-minutes about how great your hair is and made you feel like we actually have some sort of connection, that you would feel extra rude.
Emily: Yes. Some people will say like, "Oh, you know, you're my sister. You're my whatever. You're my friend now because I think that you're so beautiful or whatever," and really truly try to do that. I remember a couple of weeks ago, or I guess a couple of months ago now before lockdown happened, a woman came to my door and just like, "We're selling these big coupons for $20 for our basketball team." It was a bunch of non-vegan things that I could never use, and I'm like, "Can I just give you $20? Here, I'm not going to use this." Even in that situation I freaking gave someone money, jeez.
Dedeker: It's okay. You probably supported a local kids' basketball team or whatever.
Emily: Sure, I guess I can feel okay about that one, but yes, I think there are so many things out there that will take your time away from what you really should be doing. By saying, no, I think it can allow you to really focus and pin down in your life on what you truly care about and what truly matters. For example, yes, I took three restaurant jobs. I've talked about this on this show before. I got three restaurant jobs at once and they all wanted me at the same time and stuff, so I said yes to all of them, but my life was total chaos. It was running from the next job to the next job, to the next job.
Dedeker: It was a terrible time.
Emily: It was a terrible time, yes.
Jase: It was a terrible time.
Emily: It was not good for me or for anyone else. Then also trying to do Multiamory on top of it. It was just way too much, and I had to finally pair down and be, "I'm not doing this anymore because this is completely ridiculous." Beforehand I didn't want to say no to these people because I was, all of those things. I was worried about missing out on money and on opportunity and saying no to friends who wanted me to be in these jobs, et cetera.
Jase: Yes. I think the funny irony of it is that when we feel like we can't say no to anything, it actually makes it so we're less able to say yes to the things that really matter to us. Maybe this is silly, but to think about your example of the woman coming to your door, wanting donations for something. Remember, Emily, at our old place, there were those kids who lived in the same building, who a couple of times a year would have their school selling wrapping paper or whatever to raise money for stuff? To me, I was, "Yes, I remember being there and doing that as a kid and I want to support these kids.
Yes, I want to do that." It's like if I were saying yes to every other sale or promotion or every other thing that came along, I wouldn't have the money to give to something where I'm like, "Oh cool. I don't even really want these things but I want to support you. Let me do that." Like you said with the woman with the chocolate where it's like you could support her, I would argue, because you have said no to some other things that could have taken that money away from you.
Dedeker: Yes, and I think that something that's quite really powerful about being able to say no, is that it can be the difference between having a great experience with another human being and having an experience that just feels like a violation, and that produces a lot of resentment for one or both of you. This doesn't have to be about any sexual interaction. I know when we talk about consent and saying no, often it's within this context of negotiating sexual interaction. It really doesn't have to be. It can be a great experience for someone to come to you and say, "Hey, do you have time to do this thing for me right now?"
I can be like, "Oh, actually no, I don't. I'm sorry." Then be like, "Okay, sorry I just thought I'd ask." That's a small interaction, but it's a good experience, to have that freedom to be able to say no, and then the other person receives it and then no harm, no foul essentially. Versus if I don't feel like I can say no, I say yes even though I don't really have the time or capacity to do this thing for this person. Then not only am I stressed out and tired out and maybe also feeling like, "They should have seen how stressed and tired I was, and they shouldn't have even asked in the first place."
Now maybe I resent them for coming to me in the first place. Then just all around, things are no good and feel crummy.
Jase: Yes, you alluded to that earlier too. I was just going to say, last one is just, saying no also can get you out of a bad situation. It's not always about saying the word no, but more about saying no to something, and that's like getting out of a shitty relationship. That's not to say, "Oh, you should have said no beforehand" Because maybe you didn't know that. Maybe it's changed over time, but that ability to say no also means stopping doing something once you've started doing it. Saying, "Actually, you know what? I don't want to do this anymore." It can look like that too.
Emily: There's this woman Judith Sills, who's a PhD psychologist and she had this quote on no, which is "No tests the health and equity of your closest relationships. If you feel you cannot say no, at least to some things some of the time, then you are not being loved, you are being controlled." That's really interesting, because you can, in your life be taken advantage of by people in various ways. You can also take advantage of people, but the ability to be able to say no to someone can help you monitor that for yourself, and be, "Am I in a situation where this feels like if I said yes to this, I might be taken advantage of?" You can figure that out for yourself in those moments. If you're maybe being controlled, or if you are in a situation where you're like, "This is okay to say no, and I feel good about that."
Dedeker: Then also, something I've seen, sometimes in more toxic or abusive relationships is, if you say no to a partner, and that partner, instead of accepting it, treats that no like a challenge, that's often a bad sign as well, because then if it gets to that situation where it's just constantly escalating, trying to push against that no, of, "What if it was this? What if it was that? You shouldn't feel this way," constantly trying to talk you out of it necessarily. That's also not a good sign either.
Jase: That's like we talked about earlier with that guy I was on the phone with for 40 minutes.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: This is not a good sign. We do not want to work with this person.
Dedeker: Let's talk about, how can we get better at being able to say no to people around us?
Emily: I think it takes a little bit of time, maybe age, maybe lots of years of feeling like, "I'm not really good at this, and it's burned me in various ways." One of the ways that you talked about, Jase was having baby steps, which is a good thing for someone like me who's pretty bad at saying no. Instead of just saying yes, automatically to maybe be like, "Let me think about it. Let me not maybe commit to that quite yet, check my schedule, see what's going on," et cetera, et cetera. Then go from there. Really, take the moment to evaluate, is this going to be a good thing in your life right now?
Jase: Right. For you, it's like the only options that feel possible is saying yes, or maybe saying, "Let me think about it," go with the, "Let me think about it," if you don't feel like you could say no, right then for whatever reason, the circumstance or your emotional state or whatever it is.
Dedeker: I think that some of that training yourself out of the automatic "yes", is really tied to just giving yourself time and being able to slow down, which is where mindfulness can really help, being able to buy yourself some time, again, if you can't go straight for the "no", by saying something like, "Let me think about that for a second," just to give yourself time to check in with what's going on in your body and what's going on in your emotions. Because also answering from a place that's super emotionally charged, maybe it's charged by guilt of, "Oh God, this person is making all this effort, and they're being really nice to me," so that compels a particular answer or things like that.
Just checking in on what are the emotions going on in your body? Is there anger? Is there disgust? Is there regret? Is there fear? Just being aware of that, and then producing your answer, or even taking more time to actually think about it until you're feeling a little bit less emotional, so you're feeling a little bit more calm, a little bit more stable, before being able to respond.
Jase: Yes, absolutely. In an article by Judith Sills, who Emily quoted earlier, she talks about the importance of being as unemotional as you can in saying no because that also helps people to receive it better.
Emily: That's a good one.
Jase: This is the part that I added too, is whether that emotion is, "No." If it's like "I'm disgusted or angry," but also could be, you're like, "I don't think that I can." The emotion of, "I'm afraid to tell you this," or, "I feel bad about it," that even that can then make them think, "Oh, they just need to be talked into it. Clearly, they're feeling uncomfortable saying no, so I should convince them to say yes." Even if they don't mean that in as terrible and manipulative as that sounded when I said it out loud, in either case, it's not what you want. In either case, it's going to end up in a situation that you didn't want, so trying to get that across helps, if possible.
Emily: Yes. I've found that some people in my life who I'm intimidated by, it's really hard for me to say no to them. Even my voice teacher who can be pretty intense and intimidating at times, she's great. I learned a lot from her, but at times, if I feel like I can't afford doing something than taking an hour and a half long lesson, but she's very insistent upon it, then I'll say yes, even when I should be saying no.
Dedeker: Is that why you're always in voice lessons?
Emily: I took a couple weeks off during quarantine because I had no money. I still have no money, but we're doing cheaper lessons right now, so that's good.
Jase: That's good.
Emily: I think it is important to practice saying no in various ways, so that when you do have people in your life, who maybe you are a little bit more intimidated by, or who, it's more difficult for whatever reason for you to say no to them, that it can become easier in those instances. Especially if you really need to, if you don't have the funds to pay for something, and you need to say no to someone for a reason such as that, then you need to be able to do so in those particular moments, but it can take work. It can take a lot of personal reflection and insistence to
Jase: I think in this case when it comes to practice, that can even literally look like actual practice with a friend or someone to be, "Hey, can you help me practice saying no to this particular situation?" Especially if you've noticed a recurring, "Every weekend I sign up for a new subscription when I go downtown New York."
Whatever it is, have them practice it with you, to literally practice, not just mentally be like, "Yes, yes, yes. " No. In the mirror you go, "No, no, no" but actually get someone to help you.
Emily: Older women that are like my mother, I'm terrible at saying no them. Real domineering, overbearing, intense women, I'm terrible at saying no. Men, I'm like, "Whatever. No."
But women, I'm freaked out by it. I'm really bad at that.
Dedeker: That's good to know.
Emily: It is good to know.
Dedeker: Then how do we practice that with you, Em?
Emily: I don't know.
Dedeker: How do we set that up? We need to hire an older domineering woman. We'd hire a dominatrix.
Bring her in, and she'll just stand there asking you if you want to buy a particular coupon or a subscription or voice lessons, and you'll just be like, "No. No. No," over and over again.
Jase: I love it. Great.
Dedeker: That'd be great. It'll probably be the easiest money she's ever made.
Emily: Yes, for sure. The thing is, I don't have money for that right now either.
Dedeker: Maybe we can then go around and we can do a fundraising collection, and be like, "Will you contribute $20 to hiring a dominatrix so that we can help Emily practice saying no to domineering women?"
Jase: I love it. I love it.
Dedeker: We'll just pass the hat around and see how that goes. It'll be a whole daisy chain of probably receiving a lot of nos from people.
Emily: Yes, definitely. It'll be good for all of us.
Jase: Call, 1800 teach Emily. No, you can give us a credit card and we'll just take those donations, do a little pledge drive. It's okay. You can say no to that. Then also just don't say yes-- Sorry, what am I trying to say? Saying yes, first and then later saying no is especially difficult and arguably more hurtful, so that idea of saying, "Let me think about it," or, "I don't think that I can, but I will let you know," or something, can be an alternative to that. At least someone's not counting on you, and then you're bailing once you realize, "I'm over committed," for example.
Dedeker: Yes, bailing is no fun. No one likes bailing or flakiness. I just want to reiterate, it is okay to do that along the lines of consent being reversible. Please don't take our words to mean that once you've said yes, you're stuck, just use some common sense.
Jase: We want to move on to talking about the power of receiving no, but before we do that, we want to take a quick moment to talk about ways you can support this show if that's actually a yes for you. Please take a moment, and if you like this show, if this is something you want to support, listen to our sponsors, as well as our info about Patreon and consider supporting or getting some of those awesome products.
Emily: We want to move on to speaking about the power of receiving a no from someone. There are those of us out there who do live in a lot of fear of someone telling us no, and it can definitely prove to be a challenge in our lives because it can cause a lot of stress when we might take somebody's no, personally. Then also because fear of no is really a real thing. It can definitely stop us from advocating for ourselves, or for pursuing what we want in our life because we're constantly worried about somebody saying no to us, so this is interesting. I think I'm pretty good at receiving a no but I'm really bad at giving a no.
Dedeker: It's really because your mom trained you from birth. She just like no to you a whole bunch.
Emily: Yes. Exactly she was like I'm going to no all over the place and then you're going to be great at that, then terrible at saying it yourself for whatever reason.
Dedeker: This reminds me of there's this concept that's been floating around recently, this ask culture versus guess culture concept. Have the two of you encountered that?
Emily: Ask versus guess?
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: I don't know.
Dedeker: It initially was popular. In 2010, was when I first saw it floating around the internet and then went quiet, and then it's had a resurgence recently. I've noticed a lot of memes about this or articles about this being shared recently. Basically, it's more about the micro-cultures that you grew up in, which could also be influenced by the culture at large that you grew up in. This idea of ask culture people feel comfortable with directly asking for a favor or directly asking for something, and understanding I may receive a no and that's okay. Versus guess culture people, the point is more indirect communication and more like, I can only ask if I'm expecting to receive a yes, basically.
The example that often gets attached to this is this idea that someone, your friend calls you up and says, "Hey, I'm going to be in town for a business trip next week. Can I crash at your place?" Maybe they're an ask culture person where they may accept, "Oh, yes, you may say no. You may say yes. I'm just going to ask though, and see." Versus if you're a guess culture person, you may be feeling offended, like, "Wow, that's really presumptuous of them to reach out and ask because now I'm in a position where either I feel obligated to say yes, or I feel like I have to say no."
In guess culture that's a bad thing. That's a failure. That means you, the asker, have not sufficiently read the room, and therefore, you're asking your question because you're expecting a yes. This is something that can come up in relationships often, it can come up in negotiations. I highly recommend just go Google ask culture versus guess culture, you'll find a lot of resources on it. It makes me think about that, of that you can be raised in a microculture where someone's saying no to you, your parents saying no to you, or a teacher saying no to you, that's automatically a failure. It's really easy to take that personally.
Jase: For sure. I think that part of what goes along with that is this idea of that when someone says no to you that they're saying no to you as a human being, rather than just saying no to the thing that you asked, the favor that you asked or the relationship that you wanted or something. I feel like this is even bigger than just the ask culture versus guess culture. I feel like even within someone who grew up in an asking micro-culture, that there's still an element of this, like, no is a bad response and yes is a good response so try to ask it in a way to make sure you get a yes or don't ask something if you know the answer is going to be a no, or if you think it's going to be a no, something like that.
Emily: I do want to bring up, because we've alluded to it a little bit here, but that in the heterosexual relationships that I've been in, it has been difficult sometimes on both ends to say no in sexual situations. Then at times on either end to feel really offended when somebody gives you a no, or see that offense occur when you give a no. Then having this cyclical thing of feeling like you have to say yes, but not really wanting to and then also bracing yourself for when you're going to get asked. It's just really ugly all the way around. I think there's a lot of entitlement that happens in relationships for time and for people's bodies, and we've talked about this before on previous episodes.
I think that, and we're going to get to this, the ability to be okay with hearing the word no, and also giving it, is really important in relationships.
Dedeker: I think it's well-documented especially in heterosexual relationships or sexual situations, how consent has historically been a tricky thing, and people being able to say no, has been a tricky thing. I have a personal story about this that actually reflects very poorly on me, so I'm going to share it. It's basically in my early 20s when I was dating more heavily and had more casual hookups and stuff like that, that I went on two or three dates with this guy. I went back to his place on date number three or whatever. We were fooling around, and I asked him if he wanted to have specifically penetrative sex and he said, "No," actually.
I didn't prompt him on this. He wanted to explain that he recently had a little bit of a traumatic experience with it and so he was like, "It's okay with you, I would like to do other things like outercourse, or other sexual activities, but not penetrative sex." I remember at the time feeling compassion for him because he shared what was going on, so feeling sad for him. Then also at the same time, I was still indoctrinated in this idea of, men don't say no to sex. I didn't receive that no very well. I still gave him a look. The way that I remember it, looking back on it, is that I felt like he was a weirdo, which was so not the right response to that, now that I know now.
I think some of that was just that assumption of, " Guys don't say no to sex and if a guy is saying no to sex, it means there's something very wrong with you as a woman." It was both a combination of, "Whoa, this guy is maybe a little weird combined with, oh, maybe there's something wrong with me if he doesn't want to have penetrative sex." That's something that we've heard from listeners, especially male listeners of ours who go to play parties and feel like, "If I say no to this touch, this other person is going to take it personally because that's the way we've all been socialized when it comes to saying things like yes or no."
Anyway, nowadays I feel really bad about that. I hope that that guy is doing well. We didn't end up seeing each other again. I don't think because of that instance, but because he lived out in Santa Monica honestly. In LA when you have to drive half an hour to see someone when there's no traffic it's just rough.
That whole situation that happened, I do feel like it was an important stage in my own personal development with these things because it was important for me to have that experience of a man saying no to sex for me for, I don't want to say like a "legitimate reason." Not like he needed a legitimate reason but that it showed me, "Hey, people can say no for any reason and I don't need to know." It can be really serious, and it doesn't have to necessarily do with me and that it's still important to hear no.
Jase: I love that. I think that that idea of realizing that someone else's no isn't always about you, is huge, huge because I would say it's actually about you probably a minority of the time, right?
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: Or at least that a minority of it is about you. That's a really great observation to have. I think the other side of this is that the fear of someone saying no to you can also hold us back from asking for what we want. This one's a tricky one because I feel like it's important to find the middle path between, on the one hand, someone, and this is where it comes up a lot in sales and stuff, is this going for a no. It's like you keep pushing until they tell you a definitive no and that's how you know you've sold them as much stuff as you can sell them, or it's go until you get a more solid no.
That goes into pushy shitty territory especially in relationships, but I would argue actually, in any circumstance. Then on the other side, you have if you're so afraid of getting a no, and instead you try to insinuate everything or indirectly ask everything so they never get a chance to say no, you can also end up being pushy and shitty, and putting people in a bad situation. I actually think that there's this really important middle ground of being clear. I don't even want to say direct because that has some connotations to it. Being clear and unafraid in stating what it is that you want, whether that's a raise, or a job, or a relationship with someone, or going to a certain place or that you want someone to join your Patreon, whatever it is, of not being afraid to ask that, while at the same time not being like "Oh, I'm going to keep pushing until they tell me, fuck off. No." I think at the same time, a lot of us can just go through life never really asking for what we want, and other people who might want to give us something don't know how because we've never told them what we want.
Emily: Are there ways to get better at hearing the word though, not saying it, but hearing it? If we don't internalize it and rather just, they're saying no to the action or the thing that you maybe want in that scenario or something along those lines, if you can take yourself out of the situation, which is really hard to do, we know that. I know that personally. Instead, just see they're not saying no to me as a complete person, but rather just to the thing that I am asking of them.
Jase: That one's funny even if the ask is to go on a date with you. Where it's like, "No, they're saying no to me." I know this is maybe a mind game, but to go, "No, they're actually saying no, not to me as a person but to going on a date with me." I think that subtle difference actually is significant and can help.
Dedeker: Yes, definitely. Something that comes up in a lot of consent exercises is the thanks for taking care of yourself exercise. Just practicing you asking somebody for something, they say no, and then you respond with, "Thanks for taking care of yourself." Some consent instructors don't like the thanks for taking care of yourself. We like it. Any variation of just like, "Thanks, I got the message." Then that's where the conversation or at least for that particular negotiation, ends. It's really good practice because I think that also something that sometimes hampers us is someone says no to us, and then we don't know what to say back, necessarily.
Jase: Oh my gosh, yes, so true.
Dedeker: Give yourself just a little script. Just a little script of like, "Okay, cool. Thanks for letting me know," is perfect.
Emily: Yes, that's a really good way to handle that situation.
Jase: Practising that one is huge, of just getting in that habit. I know for me the first time I went to a consent workshop where they did that exercise of asking someone for something that you're pretty sure they would say yes to and then part of the exercise is that they will say no. Then, in response, some variation on, "Thank you for taking care of yourself," or, "Thank you for letting me know," for me it was this mind-blowing moment of, "Whoa, someone saying no to me is something that I would thank them for" It goes back to what we've been talking about this whole episode of, you've got something clear.
You've got something honest, you got something that was hard for them to do in the same way that, Emily, you were saying before it's like, "Oh, they did all this work to talk to me about this thing and they're working so hard." For me, it was this really mind-blowing moment of realizing, yes, anytime someone says no to me I know that that's hard. I know that that can be very hard for some people. It's like really appreciating it and admiring it, being like, "Wow, thank you for that," helped me be a lot less afraid of no, also.
Dedeker: Let's take it to the final countdown.
Emily: Let's take it to the core.
Jase: Where are you going with this?
Dedeker: I don't know. The final section, the superpower art of being easy to say no to. Now, this is something that not a lot of people out there are talking about. It's basically never talked about. There are countless resources out there that talk about the opposite about how to make it harder for people to say no to you, which is everything from just being charismatic, and irresistible, to being downright manipulative. That's cool, but we don't really spend a lot of time in our culture talking about how being someone where it's easy and safe to say no to, is actually a good thing and maybe a good character quality, something that makes life easier for yourself and everyone around.
Of course, caveats, there's a difference between being easy and safe to say no to and saying no, for somebody else. There's a difference between being easy and safe to say no to and being a doormat, of course. You can do things where maybe you ask for something, and then you immediately follow it up with like, "Oh, no, I shouldn't have asked. Oh, I'm so terrible for asking. Oh, no," stuff like that. That doesn't count as being safe to say no to because what you're projecting to the other person is, "Even before you've said yes or no, I'm beating myself up.
You're having to watch me self flagellate and really perform how difficult it is for me to even ask this to then make you feel even worse if you do have to say no to me." On the other hand, cultivating a sense of safety, where people know that you are the kind of person who will respectfully receive a no, that not only makes the world a better place but also makes you an easier person to say yes to.
Jase: For all the people sitting at home, scratching their heads being like, "Woof, wait, what are you saying? Being easy to say no to? That seems super counterintuitive." Stick with us because we want to get to it. This is something that actually really is a superpower. Let's start by, we've covered this already, but let's review why is it hard to receive a no? I would say the first thing is that everything in life tells us yes is success and no is failure. If we're getting nos, we're failing, and that's a blow to our self-esteem. We're likely going to show that to the person who's saying it to us.
Even if we don't intend to, we're now manipulating that person into at least feeling bad if not changing their mind and saying yes. Even with the best of intentions, and even just coming from a place of insecurity, have made a shitty situation for other people by doing that. That's hard not to do because it's so tied with our self worth in this culture.
Emily: Internally, it can be hard not to take a no personally. It's like a failing thing. Like, "Oh, well, I guess I failed at X because they're saying no." As we said before, specifically in this situation of being in a relationship with someone and if you're in a sexual situation or any type of situation, and you do take it really seriously or personally when somebody tells you, no, and then throw a hissy fit about it or walk out of the room in a huff or something like that or pout or anything.
Stonewall, yes, then that is you're not an easy person to say no to. That's not a thing to be striving for in any way. Instead, consent and the stuff that you talked about before, Jase, being able to say, "Hell, yes," to someone and then also being able to respectfully say no is a really, really awesome, important thing to be able to do.
Dedeker: I think we've talked about this on this show before, but the Gottman institute that does a ton of research on relationships and couples and things like that, specifically when it comes to asking for sex within a relationship, a short-term or long-term relationship, that the couples where there's a culture of it being safe to say no, Where anyone can say no to sex at any time, basically, and there's like you said, no pouting, no hissy fits, when there's zero negative consequences for saying no in the relationship, those couples have way more sex ironically.
It seems counterintuitive that you would think that when there's more opportunity and safety to say, no, there's going to be more nos. It actually produces the opposite effect that they're more likely to say yes.
Emily: Only Probably because they feel safe.
Dedeker: Yes, exactly, or they're more likely to say like, "No, I don't want to do that kind of sex, but let's do this other kind of sex instead," things like that.
Jase: I love that. I was also going to say, part of it is that this is something that Dedeker I feel like you've expressed to me before, is that if you're with someone where you don't trust them to receive a no gracefully and kindly and stuff like that, then it's like, there can actually be a fear of saying yes to even a little thing because that might lead them to the next thing that you might not want to do. If you don't trust that at any time a no is okay or like you said, Dedeker, "Actually, what if we did this instead?" Then it's like, even earlier on in this chain, even if that's like, "Hey, do you want to make out?"
It's like, "No, because I know you're going to ask for this thing. Then you're going to get upset with me if I say no." It makes a lot of sense actually, why that chain of nos. If you have a friend who you offer to hang out with, and then you just can't escape them for the next six hours or something is another non-sexual version of this, where it's, "I'm less likely to say yes to you because I don't feel like I'm going to be able to say no, for the rest of the day if I've said this one yes."
Dedeker: How do we practice this one of becoming the kind of person where it's easy to say no to? How do we get a dominatrix involved, is what I'm really trying to go for here.
Jase: That's really to have that.
Emily: The practice parts as you're saying, talking about that is really important. Just being able to say, "Thank you for taking care of yourselves, "and really meaning it and realizing, "Hey, it's okay that this person said no to me. I'm choosing not to take it personally in this moment."
Dedeker: When the dominatrix is in here, Emily, then we'll first do the first round of you saying no to her a bunch of times, and then we'll swap it where you ask her for stuff and then she keeps saying no to you, and then we can all practice being like, "Oh, yes, thanks. Thanks for letting me know. Thanks for taking care of yourselves." Communicating clearly.
Emily: I don't think I'm particularly bad at that one, but it's a good thing to practice regardless.
Dedeker: Something that I learned about fairly recently when making requests of people, is based on the same principle. If in your request you can also communicate, actually even sometimes quite bluntly, that it's okay to say no, that those requests tend to be not only, first of all, accepted much more frequently, but also just taken much better even when the answer is a no. Even being able to tell people things like, "Hey, do you mind doing this thing? If you can't that's okay. Let me know." If that's true, if it truly is okay that they say no Them saying no does mean you're going to be all weird and passive-aggressive to them. Things like that or things like, "Hey, what do you think about hanging out this week? If that doesn't work for you that's okay," or, "If it's not a good time, that's okay." or, "Just let me know."
Something like that, actually telegraphing, letting people know, "Hey, you do actually have a choice here, and I'm helping you to even be able to save face because I'm the one who's brought up, hey, I will also receive a no." That interaction is just much more likely to go much more fluid and just feel better for both of you.
Jase: I think part of part of that is, one is doing the self work to actually be at the place where a no actually is an answer you can accept and will respect. Then also it's not so easy to just say, "I'll say these words and then they'll know it's okay to say no," but it's just because you know that no is an okay answer to give, doesn't mean they're going to feel that way. This could be because of you in the past, or more likely I would say, this could be because of their thousands of experiences they've had with other human beings that have shown them whatever it is.
That, "Oh, actually saying no makes people feel bad," like we've talked about, or, "That saying no could even be dangerous to me." This is something I've found particularly, as a man, in my interactions with women, that becoming more aware of that fact that while I might think I'm a perfectly safe and reasonable person to say no to, there's no guarantee that any women in my life will know that about me or even agree with that statement to be totally honest with myself. I can't know that. It's not just so easy as saying, "Oh, yes sure no problem. I can take a no. No big deal."
There's you really have to go that extra mile sometimes to make it clear that it's safe and make it clear, showing by example, that it's okay to say no to you in a whole number of situations and scenarios. That's I guess just really being aware of that. I think that doesn't just apply to men's relationships with women, it's especially strong there. It's especially embedded in our culture in that. With anything else, if it's talking with someone who's younger than you or a subordinate at work or someone that has less money than you or someone of a different race than you, or a nationality, or any number of things that might create some sort of a hierarchy in that relationship, whether that's actual agreed upon between you or not, that that's something to be aware of.
That it's worth going that extra mile to be like, "No is actually a good answer and I want to prove that to you. I want to show that to you, that no is safe and that it's okay."
Emily: In conclusion, it's very important to be able to say no, to receive no, and then to be someone who is good at receiving no, and then your life is going to be awesome.
Dedeker: Get a dominatrix involved somehow.
Emily: Sure, that sounds great just in general.
Dedeker: Is it okay for me to read a poem in conclusion today?
Jase: Wow, what a surprise bonus ending. Wow.
Emily: Is it from the poem book that you gave me?
Dedeker: From Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman? Yes, it is.
Emily: Oh, wait.
Dedeker: No, that's a different poem book that I gave you.
Emily: Wait, did you give me that one?
Dedeker: Years ago.
Emily: Yes, you gave me that one. That one was the first books you ever gave me.
Dedeker: Yes, years and years, years ago. I gave you a copy of Leaves of Grass. Jeez, I've given you multiple books of poems over the course of our relationship together.
Emily: Look at you, wow.
Dedeker: No, this is by one of my favorites Walt Whitman. It's a very short poem. Don't get afraid.
It's a very, very short poem. When you sent me this episode Jase it just made me think of this poem in particular that has come to mind for me a lot whenever I've had to deal with rejection or with a no from somebody or something. This poem is called Stronger Lessons by Walt Whitman.
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired
you, and were tender with you, and stood aside
for you?
Have you not learned the great lessons of those who
rejected you, and braced themselves against
you? or who treated you with contempt, or
disputed the passage with you?
That's it, the end. Super short.
Emily: The end. Thank you, Mr Whitman.
Jase: Thank you all so much. For our bonus episode which is for our Patreon supporters, we want to do a quick little dive into the world of saying yes and how sometimes being able to say yes Yes, opposite day. Sometimes saying yes can be hard and we're going to explore that a little bit. If you want to get that you can become one of our Patreons at the $7, or up-level, gets the bonus episodes.