296 - Relationship Health Checkup (with Erin Tillman)
Checking in
Erin Tillman, also knows as The Dating Advice Girl, is an inclusive sex educator, dating and consent empowerment coach, author, public speaker, and media personality. She is based out of Los Angeles and has contributed to BuzzFeed, Lifetime, Elle Magazine, Men’s Health, Washington Post, and more. For over a decade, Erin has helped empower others through her workshops, podcasting, matchmaking, and the publication of her book, The Consent Guidebook.
Throughout this episode Erin covers a range of topics about relationship health and wellness, including:
Navigating boundaries with different partners during Covid:
How she has continued to see risk management show up in people’s lives from earlier on during the pandemic when couples were confronted with managing risk together with other partners and/or metamours.
Differences in negotiating boundaries with a new partner as opposed to an existing one.
Being a good ally to partners/friends who are black and/or have an identity different from your own:
How the push and pull between speaking/standing up for oppressed groups while avoiding speaking over those who are oppressed continues to show up in intimate relationships and how we can maybe do it better.
Keeping things fun, even during a pandemic:
Fun recommendations for people to spice up dates or hangouts during this time.
If it’s even possible to get a good sense of someone during a Zoom first date and how to make those fun.
Remember secondary/tertiary/other partners during this pandemic:
Suggestions for people to keep long-distance relationships connected.
Platonic relationships versus romantic ones and how similar they are, as well as some advice on keeping in touch with people.
Be sure to listen to the full episode and check out Erin on her social media! She can be found at www.TheDatingAdviceGirl.com, Instagram and Twitter at @DatingAdviceGrl, TikTok at @MissErinTillman, and don’t forget to check out her book, The Consent Guidebook, at www.TheConsentGuidebook.com.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're joined by the dating advice girl, Erin Tillman, to talk about your dating and relationship health. During times of increased stress or just a change from the normal, all of which are happening right now, it can be easy to lose perspective and stop maintaining your own mental health and the health of your relationships. Today we're going to go over a few topics to keep in mind, to keep them going strong.
Our guest today is Erin Tillman, an inclusive sex educator, dating and consent empowerment coach, author, speaker, and media personality based in LA. For the past 10 years, she has helped empower singles through workshops, matchmaking, podcasting, and her book, The Consent Guidebook. She's also written for all sorts of places like Lifetime, Buzzfeed, Elle Magazine, Men's Health, Washington Post. She was on this podcast a little over three years ago, which is wild to me it's been that long. Erin, welcome back. Thank you for being here.
Erin: Yay. So happy to be back. I know, I can't believe it's been three years or something. That's so crazy.
Emily: Time really flies.
Jase: Feels like just the other day.
Dedeker: I'm assuming in the last three years it's been just the same old, same old nothing's changed in the world or any if that's between now and then.
Emily: Oh, yes. Nothing at all.
Erin: The world looks exactly the same from three years ago, important, right?
Emily: 100%, yes.
Jase: No big deal.
Erin: I mean so much has changed and it's so funny because I feel like these conversations about time or when I start to feel really old. Because I've been in the dating industry so to speak before Tinder and before Instagram and that kind of stuff. I'm like, "Whoa, Whoa." Three years ago TikTok wasn't around. It was just like this weird thing. We're just like, "Whoa."
Dedeker: I'm really curious actually to jump in with that of you've been in the industry for so long, how do you make sense of all the really rapid change that we've seen?
Erin: Well, let me start by saying, even though I've been in the industry a lot, I'm one of those people who can adapt very easily. I'm fortunate that I'm not overwhelmed which is why I think I'm a good dating coach, is that with all the changes that are happening, I try to keep my clients on task. I'm not overwhelmed. I try to make things very understandable for them in terms of which dating apps should I choose? How do I set up a profile? All of that stuff. I don't know. I guess it's just my brain is such that it's easy for me to learn a new thing and I get excited about it. I've adapted pretty well to the changes, to be honest.
I love that social media is more integrated into these dating apps per se. I think it's really interesting that we're in the pandemic and a lot of our meeting new people is virtual. Yes, it's not ideal, but I think it's kind of interesting and kind of fun that you kind of need to pay attention to people because if this is the way- Zoom and various platforms if this is how we're meeting people, then what are we doing on these and are we putting our best foot forward on these? I nerd out on it all.
Dedeker: I think it is funny. I feel like I hear the sentiment from a number of people. There are the people out there who are just like, "Oh, I can't do the apps. I can't do the online dating. I can't do the virtual dating. I just can't. I need to meet people in person." I think that's a 100% valid way to feel. I totally get it. Totally respect it but it is that kind of thing where now where it's like, you don't really have the choice necessarily because you can't just wander down to the bar on the corner and have the superorganic meat, cute kind of experience.
Erin: Or you can, depending on where you live. Because I was in Ohio recently and everything is open my friends.
Jase: What?
Erin: I didn't go to any of those places, but oh yes. Waterparks were open, bars were open.
Emily: Oh, my gosh.
Erin: Everything's open. Yes. Some people still are meeting in person.
Dedeker: Oh guys, so maybe you can meet your next love at a waterpark.
Emily: Are you in Los Angeles, Erin?
Erin: I'm in Los Angeles.
Emily: Me too. Nothing is open here. That's a complete opposite
Erin: First of all, I'm going to say, there's not going to be enough time on this show to talk about all the things, because already we've opened up a can of worms in terms of meeting someone during a pandemic or what are your boundaries around COVID? Are you meeting people who have the same boundaries you do around wearing a mask and not, and comfortability? I can't say that word Comfortable. Being comfortable with someone with a mask or not? Those are all really valid things to talk about when you're meeting new people and also with current partners. Again, I'm jumping around and I know we're probably going to talk about all these things, but it's like the pandemic hopefully is making us better communicators because with all the people in our lives and all the new people coming into our lives. We had some boundaries before but maybe those boundaries are different now.
Emily: Yes. I'm interested to talk about current partners because I know a lot of people that, well, me personally, and also Jase and Dedeker, and then a lot of our listeners are with maybe a long-term partner and they're quarantining with them or social distancing with them and they're really the only people that they're seeing or maybe just a small pot of people. Are there ways of checking in and seeing how our relationships are doing even if they're newer relationships or long-term relationships or anything else?
Erin: Oh, absolutely. Well, number one, check-in like you said. I think that we make a lot of assumptions during a pandemic or during a time of crisis even where it's like, "Oh my god, that person knows how I feel." It's like, "Yes, yes." Why are we making assumptions about that? In our lifetimes, how many generations have never had to deal with this? This is a new experience, a generational experience that a lot of this happens that was so why are we making assumptions? Why are you not keeping in touch? Definitely, call if that needs a Zoom virtual date with your secondary tertiary partners, even if it's a new partner. It's really important to make time for those people, whatever that be a one-on-one time.
We could get into agreements with a primary-- I'm not a huge fan of hierarchal relationships, but if you are quarantined with a primary partner, definitely there should be conversations with the primary about your other partners. Absolutely. If those other partners mean something to you and you want to keep those other partners in your life, post-pandemic, then it's really important that you not forget about those other partners, even if you're not sequestered with them. It's so important.
Dedeker: I want to layout for today's topic thinking about dating and relationship health. We laid out fourish-- I think there's four here, fourish categories that we wanted to check in. Four categories where we felt like this is probably a good place to check yourself before you wreck yourself and we have a bunch of questions related to these four categories. Just for our listeners, a quick broad overview of the stuff we're going to be covering. That involves things like navigating boundaries, the different partners during COVID specifically. Being a good ally to your partners and friends who are people of color or have a different identity from your own. How to keep things fun even while dating or when you're in a relationship during a pandemic and like we're touching on right now, ways to just not forget about secondary, tertiary, other partners during the pandemic. Let's start with the boundaries question first of all. I think Jase had a specific question related to this.
Jase: Yes. This is something that we've only touched on briefly on this show before, and actually haven't done so much of a dive into it. Especially early on in lockdown, but I think still, maybe even more so now that like you were saying, things are opening up in some places which can cause this bigger divide between, "I want to be more safe than my state is choosing to be and then potential partners or existing partners are--
Emily: Or vice versa.
Jase: Right, or vice versa but overall it's like people who normally didn't have to think as much about how they manage risk versus how their partners manage risk, which is something we talk about in non-monogamy when it comes to STIs, but it's a little different like the dynamic isn't quite the same when it comes to COVID there. There's not one-to-one with that, but as all of us were suddenly presented with a lot more ways with our friends that we had to talk about how we manage risk between our partners and our multiamories and our friends and all of that.
I was just curious for you in doing your workshops and dating coaching and stuff like that, how have you seen that show up? Is there anything that you've noticed with that that can help people in navigating that? Because I think some people are like, "Fuck, I don't know what to do. I have to break up with all my partners or I can't date anyone." Right?
Erin: Yes, no. Literally, both of those things are valid and both those things are happening. Some people are like, "I'm not dating right now at all. I'm done. I can't do it. I don't trust people." Also, in this conversation, we should a little respect to people who aren't able-bodied that was kind of awkward the way I said it, but people who are immune-compromised. They don't really have the luxury of choosing. It's like, "No, this is what it is." It's very real.
Jace, I would say it's definitely not a one-to-one comparison to the STI conversation, but it's very close. It's very, very close. It's transmittable from what we know about COVID if you believe scientists, which I believe scientists. Shout out to the scientists. Yes, it's airborne on some level. It's transmittable by our spit, saliva, mucus. It's absolutely an STI conversation on some level. It just is. We should be, I don't like to use the word should. It's really important that we think about who we're sharing, who we're fluid bonding with, in a way. It is fluid bonding in a sense.
Jase: It's like fluid bonding through the air too.
Emily: Yes, air. Aerosol bonding.
Erin: In some ways, it's even more intimate and experienced now because of the pandemic, which is weird to say, right? It's really important that we're taking some precautions and really being selective about who we're inviting into our spaces, into our homes, who we're intimate with. It's absolutely similar to the STI conversation, in my opinion, in my humble opinion. Now, everyone can judge for themselves what the best choice is for themselves, but also to your point, Jace, it's not just us involved. For those of us who are in non-monogamous relationships, it's not just about us.
One of the biggest things I've seen during this pandemic is the level of selfishness involved. I don't want to get too negative, but really it is a question of, do I want to wear a mask? Do I feel like I want to make sure people in my life feel safe or am I just uncomfortable in this mask? I'm bored and I want to go out and do stuff so I'm just going to go do what I want to do and I'm sure everyone will be fine. It's like that attitude. It's like, I think--
Jase: It sounded almost word for word like you were having a conversation about condoms as a guy
Dedeker: Yes, I was going to say that. It's like that happens all the time. I hear people being like, "Oh, but like barriers--” It's just awkward. It's awkward.
Emily: It doesn't feel as good.
Dedeker: I don't want to, of course, diminish people's experiences of sometimes barriers are like straight-up painful for people or things like that. That's fine but I do think, yes, it's hard to ignore the way these things kind of rhyme together.
Erin: No, it's absolutely related. Again, there is a very basic principle here around, how are you caring for your partners? How are you caring for your partners? Yes. The ideal is this other thing over here, like pre-pandemic, there's this idea of how we were before COVID. BC, before COVID right?
Erin: And now during COVID, it's like, "Well, what is it now?" Are we willing to change how we live, how we act our philosophy and the way we do things? Are we willing if it's for the good and the safety for all of the people in our lives? That's the question. You know what, and here's the thing, even though I do sound a little judgy, I'm going to remove some judgment from that and just say, "Whatever you choose is fine, as long as all of your partners are informed about what's going on. Informed consent, right?" As long as everyone is like, "Okay, well, I know that Erin doesn't really like to wear masks." By the way, I do. I love masks. Like Erin doesn't like to go masks, but Erin doesn't like to wear a mask. She's being very honest about that so I guess I need to make a decision accordingly and my decision is not to be around her.
Emily: Yes. We've talked a lot about boundaries on this show and you were talking a little bit about hierarchy as well, and we have similar feelings regarding hierarchy on this show, for sure. If there is an existing partner and then maybe a newer partner, is there a difference between how you negotiate and navigate boundaries between those two types of relationships, existing partners and boundaries versus the new one?
Erin: Well, again, if people are in hierarchal relationships, I think it's really a first conversation with the primary partner. What are your established boundaries? What have you negotiated with each other? That could very much influence how you bring in new people, if you bring a new people and what those boundaries and standards are for other people. Yes, I think it's going to be a very individual thing. Some people like primary partners they have agreements where they're like, "You know what, as long as that person has a COVID test, STI test, everything's good. I'm cool. Go live your best life with them." Some people might be like, "Listen, it's a pandemic so they have to quarantine for 14 days before you see them but as long as they do that, then I'm okay."
It's really up to- this is like the black belt in communication. This pandemic is literally that. I think that all of us who choose something that's a little more non-traditional, this is where our super spidey skills are tested. How good are we at this? Right? How awesome are we or how terrible are we at this? This is the time that we're probably figuring that out. I definitely have some clients who have ended relationships right now or in the last couple of months because of it, because they found out that there was a partner who maybe had just different levels of comfort around this stuff.
Again, no judgment. They just were like, "Oh, wow. In this pandemic, there are certain things that I can't handle and I don't want to risk certain things. For now, maybe we should end it." That's a very valid thing, but I think honesty is most important here. Communication with all parties involved or potential new people you bring in and checking in, especially checking in, again I don't like hierarchy, but checking in with the established partners. If those are people you're quarantined with, if those are people that you're in committed partnerships with, if those are people that you have lifelong connections to, it's really important that you heed what their boundaries are. Absolutely.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: Yes. I mean, what a wild time. I love that you pointed out the whole black belt thing because sometimes I am surprised that I do think that the non-monogamous community, to a certain extent, we really pride ourselves on figuring out really tricky conversations or really uncomfortable conversations. Then sometimes we fall apart when it gets a little too uncomfortable or a little too awkward to figure out but I have hope. I have hope that--
Erin: Me too.
Dedeker: We've been training communicatively for this and hopefully that means some of us are better set for this? I don't know. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about being a good ally to partners and friends, either who are black or people of color, or who have a different identity or come from a different group than you do. You released a podcast episode a few months ago where you interview different interracial couples to talk about allyship and specifically what it means in a romantic relationship. This is definitely something that our listeners bring up a lot.
I've definitely seen among our listener base. It's not even just about race, but it's about how do I- just how do I be in a relationship where there's a big privilege differential between myself and my partner, in some way, and even though that's not necessarily black and white people have a lot of questions of how do I separate kind of the individual from what's going on in a bigger scope.
I think that when it comes to being an ally, in general, there's often what I see as kind of a push-pull between speaking up, standing up for oppressed people, oppressed groups. On the other hand, we're also encouraged to avoid the tendency to speak in place of a particular group of people or center your own experience or center your own allyship as the most important piece of the picture. In your interviews and in your work, how do you see this showing up in intimate relationships?
Erin: Well, it's a huge, huge, huge, huge topic. I feel like it's a huge topic. I'm so happy to hear that some of your listeners have brought some of these things up too. I think that's--
Emily: Absolutely.
Erin: That's a sign of the times. It's like, "Oh, wow." We all have our own individual experiences even on this show. For me, wow. Everything has happened in the last few months. Just a little backstory about me, I grew up in a very small town, moderate/conservative town in Ohio where I was the only black girl in my grade and one of few in my school. Those were super well-liked and people like, oh. I was like the black girl people knew, the one they could say, "Oh, I know one black person personally and that's Erin."
Because of that, I think growing up in the 80s and the 90s, there was definitely a feeling of wanting to, I don't like the word assimilate. Because I just was, I grew up there my whole life so I didn't know any different. It wasn't like I was trying to be like people, but there was this feeling of anytime race stuff came up or even history class, we talked about slavery and stuff. It's like, I don't want to talk about that. Why? Because it was like all eyeballs on me or this uncomfortable feeling that I felt and everyone felt. It's like, no one really wants to talk about this stuff. Even us, newsflash. We as black people, for example, hate talking about this too. We don't want to be talking about this. It's effing exhausting.
We just want to live and walk in the world without having to be notice in theory, in theory. It's not the world we live in. That's definitely not the country we live in and there's a whole lot. All that to say, when all the black lives matter protesting and stuff happened and Briana Taylor, Oh my God, it was still like that. I came and look at pictures of her. It's so effing disgusting anyway. Because she literally could be me or any of my female family members. All that to say, it was really a very beautiful thing to see so many protests and so many people who seem to really care about what was happening.
What did start to come out of that later though, was things that people are calling performative allyship, which I'm still kind on the fence. I'm definitely somebody who feels like silence is the worst. For me it's like, if somebody's like there, I definitely lost some friendships. I definitely were like, oh I see some people's true colors. If somebody literally has nothing to say about anything that's happening right now and I'm in your life or you have other people of color in your life, I just don't know why you're being quiet. I get the fear around it. I'm trying to condense my thoughts because again, each of these topics is just like so much.
Dedeker: Yes, could be a whole episode on its own.
Erin: Yes, absolutely. Bringing it back to allyship with partnerships, during the height of the protesting in the summer, my partner happens to be trans masculine and we actually we've been dating for almost a couple of years. That's a shout out everybody. We met on Tinder so it's not impossible.
Dedeker: Impossible. No, it's okay. I met my partner Alex on Tinder. Yes, success story.
Erin: You can meet a great person anywhere. I just want to say this real quick too, he's also in Los Angeles and I think we've been in the same social circles for a while. We just never actually met. Tinder was our little nudge to get us to actually meet. Going back, there's a lot of similarities in some of our experiences between him being trans and me being black. There's a lot of similar things that we've experienced. I don't like the word oppression, but maybe things that have happened to us that have been unfortunate because of our identities, back to your question.
For me, it's been an interesting journey to-- He's been an amazing ally, especially in general, but especially over the last few months because there wasn't anything performative that I noticed about him. Because of his experience with his identity and you don't have to have a related or congruent identity experienced to be an ally. I think what I noticed in him is that things he would post on social media, things he would say to me. He was really good at holding space and not saying anything sometimes, asking me what I wanted, asking me if I was okay. Like, "Can I just run some errands for you?" It was a lot of listening involved in his allyship and I think that's a really big part of things.
Specifically, with the people in our lives, who are our partners and our close friends, I think the performative aspect comes along. I definitely have some people that I know who aren't as close in my life, but it was like they would post videos of them crying about how racist they are or-- The thing is, who am I to judge if that's the way that somebody expresses themselves in terms of a feeling of remorse or a feeling of, oh, I could have done better. That's fine. Those scenarios for me feel a little bit like taking up space because it's like, okay, now all of the feeling bad and stuff is going to you crying when it's not about that. Yes. I appreciate you feeling bad, but it's like, that does feel a little bit like taking up space.
I guess what I'm trying to say in conclusion is really great allyship, I'll switch it. Well, really great allyship for me feels like listening, feels like holding space, feels like saying, "I'm here for you." Feels like asking what I can do for you, which can be a little bit of a labor there too though. It's like, sometimes I don't know what I need.
Emily: Yes.
Erin: Right. I still, me personally, I can't speak for everybody. I appreciate someone at least asking or acknowledging that maybe I may be going through something or might need something that always, always for me is better than silence, always. You might run the risk of someone being like “ugh, ugh,” but you know what, none of this is pretty, none of it is easy. Feeling somebody's frustration because you can't read their mind and know what they might need, it just put it in perspective that that's distressing, but what's more distressing is literally that some of us don't feel safe walking outside by ourself.
If we put it in perspective a little, I don't think there's any great scenario where everyone's feeling great. There's just not. That's just not part of what social justice and racial justice is about. It's just not. It's not comfortable. It's oh, I want to just switch it up real quick and say, for Jet, Jet's my partner, there's been times where I've been an ally to him in scenarios where maybe seeing something that's weird if we're out together or there's something attached to his gender that's happening. I'm a little tough, I look kind of innocent but I'm tough. If I see something I'm like, what, who said what, Where do I need to go? Who do I need to talk to? I'm that person and he's definitely more reserved and he'll handle things.
For me, again, it's because I know I'm somebody who can be like, oh my God, who I need to talk to, and I know that's not his style, I cede to what he needs. I know what he wants is something more reserved or something like, he wants me to ask him first or he wants me to not just react. That's a big part of this. Not just react because that's what I want. Waiting to react and maybe having a conversation or putting him in the conversation. I'm reacting in a way that I know that he might prefer that that's where we're going.
Dedeker: I think something that I've seen on the personal level, again in the intimate relationship level, almost on the flip side of performative allyship, is closer to the silence. What I've seen is people who have some identity differential or privileged differential in their relationship, really struggling with my partner's upset about something that's bigger way bigger than the relationship. How do I fix it? How can I fix it? How can I just fix it? Or I can't fix it so let's just not talk about it. I can't fix it. It's bigger than me, so let's not even go there.
It is this weird place of it's both true at the same time that like you can't maybe fix it right away in this moment for your partner, but you can't do something and it is so important to build that on the basis of asking your partner what they need and then believing them.
Erin: Beliving them, dead agree yes. Thank you for saying that. I'm very fortunate. Again, this could be a whole episode on its own so this is the last thing I'll say about it potentially. I can't tell you how many people I've dated or been in a relationship with who I would say that, oh, this thing happened or I felt this way or that person's being weird and I can't put my finger on it really. Or maybe I can be like, this person said this thing to me and a partner or someone I'm dating is like, no, no. They didn't mean that. I know that person. It's like, see what I think is really great about this whole pandemic situation. The one thing that's great about it, is that I think a lot of people are really seeing the truth about who people are and it's not been easy and it's been so painful and a lot of us, I'm sure some of you as well, we have watched -people have let go of people have literally been like, "Oh, I can't believe I was with this person" How could they hide this from me? How did they not know?
The pandemic has revealed so much about who people are and I think it's been really hurtful, but ultimately it's great. I'm definitely someone who would prefer someone be a total jerk to my face than hide something and secrecy and then no, just tell me no so I know who I'm dealing with. In that way, I think it's been a really great thing to know who-- Especially if we're talking about like intimate relationships, it's obviously sex and any level of intimacy it's like shared energy.
We're taking on these people's energy in our lives. It's just so funny because I actually, I remember saying to somebody a long time ago and there was somebody that I dated not so long ago, a few years ago, and he was extremely, extremely toxic and so much gaslighting and there was so much going on. I remember saying he's the type of person that when we're not together physically anymore, I cannot shake him for like a week. Energetically it's like, I literally cannot shake his energy and I'm anxious and I just feel this feeling of like, Ugh, and I don't know what it is. It's like those kinds of- and everyone has different levels of sensitivity around that kind of thing.
Those kinds of things, it's like, I think that the pandemic has revealed even deeper levels of that. It's like people couldn't hide people were out loud and proud saying how they felt about all kinds of things and you couldn't avoid it. I think that's really great and like I said, I'm repeating myself now, but I mean, it's really been devastating on a lot of levels but thank goodness people have felt comfortable enough whether it's been disgusting or positive to reveal who they are.
Emily: Absolutely.
Dedeker: Yes. Seriously, it's like a big hole shakedown to a certain extent, shake it down and shake them up. We are going to take a quick break from our interview to talk about the best ways that you can support this show and keep us offering this content for free.
Emily: Let's switch gears one more time and discuss some fun stuff. I know personally the last few days, I've been feeling some anxiety and just like, "Wow," like this is a bit of monotony I'm doing similar or the same thing over and over again are going to work but then coming home and doing the same thing. In my relationships too, we tend to just sit on the couch and watch something and that's about it. Are there ways of doing fun things? Do you have some like good creative or I don't know exciting things that you can do with your partners when maybe you do after be at the house a lot or you can only walk to the park or something like that? Are there some fun recommendations for people that you've found?
Erin: Well, so I was-- Okay. Again, pre-COVID PC or BC, it was BC.
Emily: Before COVID, I love that. Yes.
Erin: I was the most extroverted person. It's definitely-- Okay, what's the word? What's the one where you're introvert and extrovert? What is that word? There's a word for that.
Emily: Is there a word? Oh, God.
Erin: Yes.
Dedeker: Every human being on the planet? I don't know?
Emily: Yes, but you're super charismatic and I definitely-- Yes, I feel like we're more extroverted and they're definitely introverted those two.
Jase: Ambivertive?
Emily: Oh, you found it. Ambivertive.
Erin: That's it. Ambivert.
Emily: That makes sense.
Erin: I'm definitely an ambivert but definitely socially a huge extrovert. When the pandemic hit, it was devastating. I was devastated. Literally, everything in my life and actually even work-wise, everything I do involve people or crowds or groups or-- Literally, it was the hardest thing for me to wrap my head around. Now, again, being an ambivert, the introverted side of me could still thrive living alone and doing things and working on projects and stuff, but it was really, really hard for me to not have that social aspect.
I definitely was a huge fan of the Zoom everything. Zoom movie nights, Zoom drag shows, Zoom strip nights, literally everything. I still do actually do a lot of those things. I would say especially for-- Let me jump first to those of you who were dating or in a relationship with someone who you don't live with, who you're not quarantined with. Do some of these fun virtual things. I guess literally, there's one- I don't know if I should shout out shows. Why not? There's a show called Let Them Eat Cake that's based out of New York. I think it's like every other Thursday. It's free/donation and they have all kinds of pole dancers and aerialists and all these things. It's so much fun.
You could totally be like, "Hey partner, let's meet on their Zoom platform and watch this amazing show." It's really- it's actually, some of these shows are so well done. Sure it's not like being in person, but it actually is a really great escape. If you're going from no drag show or no performance art to virtual is the only way to go, it's a great replacement in that context.
I also love- I don't know, I like video games sometimes, so like One of my clients actually is well, virtually dating somebody in Norway, I believe, one of the Nordic countries, and they're doing these virtual sightseeing, another countries dates. There's like certain websites and you can go like tour Greece and stuff and they're doing it. I'm like, that is-- I would say that even if it wasn't a pandemic, like that sounds really fun.
Dedeker: Yes. There's I think I found recently what was it actually bookmark this for you and me Jason then never did it. There's a particular Japanese castle that they have a full 360 virtual reality walkthrough that you can do.
Jase: Nice.
Dedeker: I don't know. I think that it was the kind of thing that toward the beginning of the pandemic, I was like, "Whatever. This seems silly. It's not the same thing. I'll just wait until I can go," and now several months-- Now I'm like, "This sounds great. Let's do it."
Emily: Yes. It's a long road.
Erin: It is, it is. You got to keep it interesting. Again, if you're- even if you're not, even if you're quarantined with your partner or something like that virtually could be fun. Because when are we going to travel again? I don't know. Who knows? Might as well do a virtual travel thing with your current partner you're quarantine with or with other partners you're not quarantined with.
The other thing I'd like to say too is if you are quarantined with somebody or if you are in the same city geographical location and you do feel comfortable being in the same car with that person, there's a ton of like drive-in, drive through things happening too. I love it. Again, the most extroverted socially. I love all of those things. I'm actually going to a drive-in play later tonight. I'm so excited. It's like an immersive play and I'm not really sure what's going to happen, but I know they're going to come up to our car. It's not Halloween-based, it's something else, but they're going to come into our car and do things around the car.
Emily: That's so cool.
Erin: I'm so excited. You can still have fun. Yes. Make this pandemic fun and make your dates fun. Yes, the pandemic is depressing, but it's really important that we find ways to keep it fun- and dress up. You better believe, I'm going to be in a car but I'm going to dress up. I might have makeup on. I'll probably take some selfies too. You got to make it fun so, because at some point we will be done with this pandemic and to be honest, why would you want to-- I want to say it like that. What I want to say- I was going to say something kind of not nice, but I was going to say, I was going to say, no one's going to say, I was going to say, why would you want to hang out with somebody who had a terrible time for years or a year with this pandemic? I don't want to say it like that though.
I want to say, wouldn't it be really interesting to come out of this pandemic, meeting someone or having met someone or having had the best time had really some fun like experiences during the pandemic with somebody. I think that's more interesting to me. It's like, what did you do to make this fun? Did you- I don't think time. I don't like the phrase "wasting time" because I don't feel like that's- I feel like there's always something we can do and whatever. What I'm trying to say is don't waste your time. What can you do to have fun even during this pandemic? There's things you can still do and so make it fun.
Dedeker: Just to kind of put a button on that, this has been on my mind because my partner Alex recently, like finally went on like a Zoom first date a couple of weeks ago. We had a lot of conversation about the experience. You work with clients through this and I'm just like, is it possible to really get a good sense of someone over Zoom? Is it possible for it to be fun? I've been really resistant to it because I'm like, I need to smell somebody. Right now I'm not going to smell a nobody knew and that's fine, but I've just have a lot of questions about that. How are people adapting to that?
Erin: Yes, great question. Here's the thing, the smell thing is very real. Dedeker, I get it. My nose is very, very sensitive for good smells and bad smells, so I'm definitely with you like it's really important. Again, it's not ideal, but here's the thing for me personally and for clients of mine over the last few months, Zoom and FaceTime, whatever virtual dating scenario is happening, it makes people work a little harder and/or it makes them not work hard at all, which is actually a great way to select somebody or say, "Oh yes, this person is really interesting or that person like really phoned it in," no pun intended.
Literally, think of it as in theory, you could think of it as a precursor to when you actually do get to meet them in person and smell all the pheromones and all the things. It's like a precursor to that. It's like step one, you don't have to risk getting COVID, you don't have to drive anywhere, you don't have to look for parking, you don't have to do all of these things. You can meet virtually and then if that goes well, then, oh, there's so many things that can happen in the future.
The virtual date, if I think about all of the first dates where I drove like an hour away or I got dressed up and all this stuff, and I went and it was terrible, that felt like a waste of time to me. Going on a virtual date for like 20 minutes and then be like, "Oh, guess what? I got to go," even if it's terrible, it's like, oh, 20 minutes, I've still could wear my pajama pants. It's totally fine.
Hopefully, if there are people that you're meeting virtually, there's one or two or a couple that you'll meet that, you'll be like, "Oh my god, I can't wait to meet this person in person at some point," but it's not like a bunch of legwork out there in the field like risking COVID.
Dedeker: That makes sense. Out in the field.
Erin: Out in the field.
Jase: Amazing. This actually is a good example. I normally never do this because my thing during the pandemic has been like when I'm going to get up and go to my computer to work, I'm going to dress up all the way down, all the way to the bottom half because it helps me feel like I'm in work mode and not in lounging on the gas mode and then after work, I get to change back and it helps me. I'm big on that. However, the last few days I've been feeling sick with like a sinus thing and so today I did just for this call put on this shirt, but I'm wearing my pajamas on.
Dedeker: It's very rare. Very rare for Jase to do.
Jase: You can wear pajama but very rare for me.
Erin: I love it. No, I'm doing the same, Jase. I'm with you. I'm like, "Okay. I'll put some makeup on, I'll put on a cute shirt, and then nobody can tell I’m wearing sweatpants." Nobody actually knows.
Emily: Nobody knows, exactly. The same with--
Jase: Oh, man. Okay. I wanted to pivot this topic then a little bit because something that's been present for me this past year or maybe two is that I've just been dating less maybe the past year or so. I've been dating less than I've been trying to put more of that energy into my platonic friendships and maintaining those. It's become more and more apparent to me in doing that that there's really not that big a difference between maintaining romantic relationships that you don't live with and maintaining friendship relationships that you don't live with.
The only difference is the language that I use with them that I'm not maybe going to be as cutesy with them or something. I know sometimes I do, I don't know. I feel like during the pandemic, I often feel like I'm dropping the ball on those. What's been interesting is that then when I'll reach out to my good friend, I just sent him a text the other day being like, "Hey, I'm so sorry. It's like every week runs into the next. I haven't been in touch at all. How are you doing? How's your kid doing?" That kind of stuff. His response to me- well, first he called me up and he was like, "Hey, yes. Me and my wife just woke up this morning and we were like, oh, it's raining outside and also Jase is a dick because he never called. He sucks."
Jase: Then he's like, "No, actually, we've been the same." He's like, everything runs together and we haven't even thought about it. I'm sorry I haven't been in touch. I guess I'm just curious wherever you are on that. I guess just if you've come across that at all with just friendships and other types of relationships, just remembering to check in even when you just forget or it feels like I've used up all my bandwidth, how do I even do that?
Erin: 100%. Again, this is a crazy experience of our lifetimes and our parents' lifetimes and our grandparents' lifetimes in some ways. All bets are off. There is no rule book for this. Although I should look more up around the pandemic of 1918, is that the one? Because people keep saying, this is very similar to that one. Anyway, plus they didn't have technology, they didn't have all these things, but all that to say, no, it's absolutely "normal" sadly it's normal in this absurd abnormal that we're in. Everyone I know is dealing with something. Literally, I don't know anybody other than maybe I don't know him personally, but Jeff Bezos, he's like one of the few who I think is really thriving right now.
Jase: Since he is doing all right.
Emily: Yes, I think he is doing just fine.
Erin: There's definitely some winners of this pandemic for sure. No, I think it's a very real thing too. I think if you care about your friends and partners that you're going to feel bad that you haven't been more in touch, but there's only so many hours of the day and our own mental health is a part of this. What are we as individuals doing to even just get through the day? Every day is so different. I literally don't know what day it is every day. Especially my mom had spinal surgery and I was helping her for about two months in Ohio. I literally being in our hospitals, it's like Vegas, it's like a less fun version of Vegas. It's like, "What day is it? What time is it?"
Jase: Much less fun version of Vegas.
Dedeker: Oh, I was going to say only marginally less fun than Vegas because I don't find that
Emily: Goodness.
Erin: I love Vegas. Well, I did love Vegas, but not going there now. Anyway. All that to say, it's like time is so subjective right now, time and space. I've definitely been in a similar scenario where certain close friends of mine, I'm like, "Oh my god, I'll call them tomorrow. Oh my god, I'll call them tomorrow," and then it's like two months have gone by. A couple of my friends have had babies and it's like, "Oh man," I was dealing with my mom's stuff, but then other stuff and it's like you do feel bad, but what I'm trying to say is that all of us except for some of the people in the 1%.
To be fair, even some of them probably are dealing with a lot of stuff emotionally. There's nobody who hasn't had to adjust over the last few months and so I think we just need to take it easy on ourselves. Honestly, I'll say this too. I think that in this time, if there are people in our lives who are pissed at us because we haven't been calling all the time and that kind of stuff, maybe that friendship is in a different phase. Maybe we need to adjust that friendship or that relationship a little bit.
Having said that, because I do like to check myself when I need to sometimes. Even as I'm saying that, I definitely had some moments during the Black Lives Matter protests where there were some close friends who I didn't hear from and it was very upsetting to me. It's not logical. It was definitely an emotional reaction, but it was like, I can't believe all of these things-- You guys remember it was literally every day, there was something going on. It was like, I can't believe. We're talking about close friends.
In that way, the thing is once I actually connecting with those people, it was okay. Again, it's more of indefinite silence, the indefinite silence of not knowing, not hear from someone, not knowing how they feel about something that is hard, but once you actually do reconnect and you have the conversation, hopefully, things are okay. I do feel we need to give a little respect to the fact that we're dealing with something that is absolutely insane, seriously.
Again, this goes back to the whole partner conversation, a close friends and partners to your point, Jase. Because also I would say too, I actually do have some clients who have said that they're not going to date right now. It's just too overwhelming for them. They are relying on their close friends and there are people who've moved in with close friends because they just feel like more of a sense of community being around people they really trust.
Whatever that looks like for you, whether that's friendships, whether that's partners, I think it was really important to be honest about how you're feeling about someone's level of communication or lack thereof, but also give a little wiggle room in terms of, oh my gosh, I'm dealing with a lot, they're dealing with a lot, so we got to take it easy on each other
if we really do care and we do know that person cares.
The last thing I'll say, having said that, again, no assumptions. I said this earlier in the show. Especially if you're dating people, if you're dating multiple people, you can't make an assumption that, "Oh, well, I haven't texted them, we haven't talked on the phone, we haven't done a video day, we haven't done any of these things. I'm sure they're fine, I'm sure they know I care." Don't make that assumption. That’s not okay. That’s not all right. Because as we're saying, everyone is dealing with something, if you don’t check in, then it can feel like you're leaving somebody hanging or that you don't care, or that you don't know. I haven't seen any of you in three years really, other than on social media, and so I don't know what your day to day things are happening for you and so how dare I be upset like, “Oh my god, Jase, I haven't heard from you," whatever.
Dedeker: It's a theme. Everyone is close to Jase for not reaching out to them. Jase is famous for being really inconsiderate, basically.
Jase: Gosh.
Erin: I’m sorry, Jase.
Dedeker: No, we can say it. We can joke about it because it's really not true. It's the opposite.
Erin: Yey. Oh, sis, that's sweet. See, that’s the love. I love the love. I feel the love. We basically we just need to be really- we need to take care of the people in our lives and check in on everybody because we really don't know how people are doing. Like I said before, there some people who are not afraid of this pandemic, who are out there in the world, who live in states or countries where things are just open, and there are a lot of people who are really afraid to be outside. I've definitely gone back and forth personally in that.
Check in on those people, check in on the people who might be living alone, who are maybe more- who really are struggling with the isolation of it all. Definitely is the mental health aspect to all of this. Whether it's friends or partners this is really important that we don't forget about the people in our lives. No, BC.
Dedeker: BC. Yes. Oh, okay. Well, I think that's a great note to end our main episode on, Erin. This has been fantastic. Where can our listeners find more about you and your work?
Erin: You can find me on my website, thedatingadvicegirl.com. I'm also super active on Instagram, @datingadvicegrl, so @datingadvicegrl with no I in girl. I'm also on TikTok which I'm having fun. Here’s the thing, we didn't really talk about consent much which is totally fine. Boundaries, that's a whole other show, but because you mentioned before, I wrote a book called The Consent Guidebook, and I just-- The topic of consent can be so serious, especially in the height of the Mee Too movement which is when I wrote my book around that time when they're all-- Everyone's being accused all these bad terrible, terrible egregious stories. It was like one of those things where I'm like, okay so there's a little fatigue around consent and consent education, it's so, so important. How do we make this fun? On TikTok, I'm trying to make consent fun. I'm trying to do some fun videos and stuff.
Emily: Oh, cool.
Erin: They’re on Instagram as well. Also on Twitter @DatingAdviceGrl. All that to say though I'm trying to find a way to weave in the sex education, consent education in a fun way that's not like where people are just like, “Oh, this again.” I'm trying to make it fun. That's all the things.
Jase: That's awesome and that's a perfect segue into something that we're going to chat about more in our bonus episode. As you can tell when the four of us get together, we'd like to talk about all sorts of things. You can expect that in the bonus but also I did specifically want to talk to you a little bit about TikTok. Yes, the stuff that you’re doing there.
Emily: Yes, because I know nothing about Tik Tok in general so I want to like get an overview of everything. I love it.
Jase: Totally.
Erin: I'll do my best.
Jase: Yes. For our patrons, if you want to get in on that conversation that will be in our patron-only bonus episode that's coming out in a couple of days. All right. Thank you everybody so much. This has been awesome. We would love to hear from you. We on our Instagram right now if you're listening to this within a day of this episode coming out, we have a poll going on about have you tried going on a first date during the pandemic. We would love to hear from you, our listeners, and know what's going on.