303 - Is Your Partner Going to Change?
Expecting change
It’s a common mantra to hear that you shouldn’t date someone expecting them to change. But human nature is to change, so it’s unreasonable to expect someone to stay static as well. There are some reasons we think we can change partners, as well as some reasonable changes to expect, which we talk about in this episode.
When do we expect change?
Sometimes situations arise that make us believe someone will change:
When a relationship first begins, sometimes NRE can cause us to ignore red flags or think that some things will resolve with time.
When areas of incompatibility arise, such as timeliness, cleanliness, money, sex, life goals, values, definitions of fidelity, etc.
Annoyances and irritations (sometimes related to compatibility, but also some day-to-day annoyances can fall into this category).
Boundary violations, both intentional and unintentional.
Toxic or abusive behavior.
Change that we can (and it’s okay to) expect:
Change in actions such as doing things around the house, asking for a check-in at a particular time, change in communication approach, etc.
Compromise, or coming up with solutions as a team and working together to honor both your needs.
Changes of opinion or outlook, which usually only works if you and your partner already share similar basic values.
Helping a partner make changes that they want to make or are motivated themselves to make in a way that they want to be helped.
When there is toxic/abusive/directly harmful addictive behavior.
What it’s NOT okay to ask for or expect:
Change in personality traits.
Change in how your partner dresses or presents themselves all the time.
Your partner abandoning or changing their circle of friends.
Change in their sexual or relationship orientation if it does not feel fluid to them already.
Change in what they eat or how they take care of their body.
On-demand change of your partner’s sex drive or emotional state.
Change that YOU ultimately want, not your partner.
If I want my partner to change…
It’s important to figure out why you want your partner to change something. What’s triggering it? What does the situation remind you of? Do you need a boundary in place there?
If you must complain, do your best to do it without blame or shame. Blame puts the other person on the defensive immediately, and shaming someone into change isn’t effective or ethical.
Try to understand first before being understood. Ask open ended questions with compassion about your partner’s background, past baggage, way of thinking, etc. Offer and provide empathy and understanding, even if you don’t agree.
Use “soft start up” to engage in conversation about change, and look for areas of compromise.
Remember that it’s okay to break up. Sometimes it’s necessary and healthier for both of you.
How can I tell if my partner is actually changing?
Some cues to look for when your partner is implementing positive change that both they and you wanted are:
They respect your opinions even when you disagree without any mockery or belittling.
You can talk about complaints and make requests without fear of punitive backlash.
You’re free to express a wide range of emotions even when they’re related to your partner’s behavior.
They are willing to compromise and collaborate on solutions, and you see consistent effort towards making changes the two of you agreed on.
Some misleading signs that your partner may not in fact be exhibiting positive change are:
No bad behavior, but also no good behavior.
The volume is turned down, but harmful words and sentiments have stayed the same.
Ideas like “I can only change if you can change,” or “I can change only if you are here to help me change.”
Criticizing you for not recognizing their change.
They’re nicer but still disrespectful and coercive.
Give the full episode a listen to get all the detail that’s packed into this one! Let us know what you think.
Image credit to Disabled And Here.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking about changes, we're talking about change.
Dedeker: I knew you were going to do that. I didn't even write it that way. I knew you were going to that maniacally.
Emily: Do you want him to change Dedeker? Do you want him to change from the way that he is?
Dedeker: Oh no, I don't.
Jase: It's a commonly repeated refrain that you can't date someone hoping to change them, but at the same time as human beings, we do change frequently over the course of our lives and relationships. Today, we'll be talking about when it is or isn't reasonable to expect change in your partner and how to tell if someone who has promised to change is actually following through with it.
Dedeker: I feel like that's just, again, more low hanging fruit of relationship advice about don't date someone or marry someone hoping that they're going to change down the road because they're probably not.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: I don't think that it's reasonable necessarily to just think that you can change someone, although so many people out there, probably myself included, in relationships thought that maybe I could, maybe I can do it.
Jase: I think it's interesting too because there's two parts to it. There's one is, is the person going to change or not and what's reasonable to change, which is what we're talking about in this episode. I think with that advice, there's that second piece of now you're committing to something before the change that's important to you. I do agree with that though. I do think that's pretty key. If this is something you believe they can change and you think they will, let's have that happen first before you end up in any extra-legal entanglements with this person, like marriage or a lease or adopting a pet or having a child.
Dedeker: Extra-legal doesn't that mean outside the terms of this contract? What are you talking about?
Jase: Supplemental, legal, not extralegal, one word.
Dedeker: You could just say legal, just legal. It's just legal.
Emily: Additional legal.
Jase: Additional, there we go. Additional legal entanglements with this person. Yes.
Dedeker: What kind of situations arise in life that could make us expect a partner to change in some particular way?
Emily: Well, at the beginning of a relationship, often we are just like in the throes of intense NRA and it can make us feel just totally amazing in the moment. If you see little red flags or weird behaviors or something along those lines, it might be easier for you to believe that eventually those might just go away or you can deal with them later or something along those lines, you can like kick the can down the road a bit. That might be an instance where you're like, maybe they'll change or I don't know. I'm not going to worry about it right now because I'm so in love with you and I'm so obsessed with you, et cetera, et cetera.
There might also be times like areas of incompatibility, like little things or bigger things, depending on what you believe. We talked about this a little bit in episode 243, or compatibility episode, but things like timeliness or cleanliness, how you handle your money, what you want to do in sex or how often you want to have sex, life goals, personal values, stuff like that. You might be tempted to think like, this will change eventually over time, or I can change my partner's views on these things, or I can get my partner to be less not punctual. What's the opposite of punctual? Late.
Jase: Tardy.
Emily: Totally late.
Dedeker: Tardiness.
Emily: Tardiness, yes. This is a big one, especially for what we like to talk about on this podcast, which is a person's definition of fidelity or even how into monogamy or non-monogamy one might be if they want it in their life. If they say, "That's cool, you have other partners and I'm starting to date you and I've never been non-monogamous before, but I'm fine with it. No problem, but eventually I'd like to maybe be monogamous with you." And hoping that that'll change.
Jase: I think that can go on both sides.
Dedeker: It definitely goes on both sides for sure.
Emily: The cowboy and the cow we--
Jase: Cowboy and the cow. It's a classic fable of a polyamorous and the monogamous person trying to change each other.
Dedeker: I do see that on the flip side all the time with people who are like, "I'm okay to not have a non-monogamous relationship now. I would like that in the future. Even though my partner has given me zero indication that they're going to feel good about that in the future, I'm still going to hold out hope that at some point in the future, we can do that." Some people can pull it off, some people can also pull off the future monogamy thing. With some people it's less of a preference and really more of potentially an incompatibility.
Emily: It might be someone's identity and the other person is not okay with that.
Jase: I think it's the difference between, I know that I'm okay with eventually doing what my partner wants, versus, I'm going to stay with them hoping they're going to change to come around to my way of thinking even though they've not indicated that they actually want to do that. Even if they're like, "Well, I don't know, maybe. Who knows what I'll feel later?" That's still not saying, "Yes, I want to change." Maybe that's something we can talk about as we get into this. It could also be smaller things like annoyances and irritations, maybe related to some of those key incompatibilities that Emily mentioned, but it could also just be just the little idiosyncrasies about how they leave their water glass out or where they like to put their computer when they're not using it or any number of little things.
Emily: Are you looking at Dedeker and like thinking about things that piss you off about her?
Jase: No, the computer one is the one she gets mad at me about.
Emily: I see, okay. Amazing.
Dedeker: Of course, there's those everyday things that I think a lot of people can relate to it, especially if you live with someone that that's part and parcel of living with someone is you also get exposed to all their weird little habits or weird little quirks that are maybe weird or annoying or frustrating or any number of things. Another situation where we might be expecting a partner to change could be if there's been some kind of boundary violation, both intentional and unintentional as well. An example I came up with was maybe you've expressed to your partner, "I don't really want to be touched in this particular way during sex." But your partner either intentionally or unintentionally maybe keeps doing it.
That's a situation where you'd probably pretty understandably be like, "I want them to change what they are doing." Of course also if you're in a situation where there's any toxic or abusive behavior, we're going to get more into the nitty-gritty of that later on in the episode, but that's another situation where, quite understandable, you'd probably be hoping that a partner would change.
Jase: Let's just get started.
Dedeker: Yes. Is it ever reasonable to expect a partner to change? Or do we need to just live by the old adage of, don't expect anyone to change ever, ever, don't ever get your hopes up?
Jase: It reminds me a little bit of a joke that I heard on that old '90s TV show, The Pretender and the psychologist's character--
Emily: This is well before our time.
Jase: This probably before your time, yes.
Dedeker: I have no idea what you're talking about Jase.
Jase: It was called The Pretender. Anyway, not important, but the character who is like the psychologist on it at one point he gives the joke of, how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? One, but the light bulb has to want to change.
Emily: That's a good one.
Jase: I think that that fits here where, is it reasonable to expect your partner to change? Maybe depends partly on whether they want to change.
Dedeker: That is part of it, we will get into it. I think the ultimate answer is that yes, there are times that it is reasonable to expect a partner to change, but it highly depends on the context. We've gathered a little list of some things that are probably okay to ask for or expect within a healthy relationship.
Jase: Number one is changing actions. This could relate to the things we talked about with where they leave their computer, or where they set their glass when they're done with it, doing certain things around the house, or maybe not doing certain things around the house, wanting check-ins at a particular time, something like that, something that's a concrete, tangible individual action of like, I would like this to change, I'd like this to be different. That could be a reasonable thing to ask.
Emily: We talk a lot about communication on the show. I think that that can go in this category too, like a change in a communication approach, whether that's talking about the Triforce in a specific way and we are going to talk about that a little bit more, or even just adding in radar and making it monthly and really sticking to that, a particular check-in that you have just to make sure that everything is flowing well within your relationship. Stuff like that. I think that it's reasonable to ask for that and to stick by it.
Dedeker: I think it's reasonable to ask for like, "Hey, can we work together to change our communication approach to each other a little bit?" Maybe we can't completely overhaul the ways that we're naturally inclined to communicate, but we can make requests of our partner of the things that may make it a little bit easier to communicate and get our meaning across. It's also okay to ask for and expect compromise. As in working together with your partner as a team toward coming up with solutions that honor both of your needs. As an example, maybe it's like, I know that you consistently stay late at work on Wednesdays and I know that you actually really love your work and it's really engaging.
How about like, I'm okay, I won't give you a hard time for staying late at work on Wednesdays, but maybe can we make that a regular day where we get lunch together during the day instead of hanging out in the evening? Or whatever. It's totally reasonable to also expect that you and your partner can work on compromise that will help make a healthy change in your relationship.
Emily: Things like changes of opinion or outlook. This is an interesting one because it really only works if you and your partner share similar basic values, but if you can discuss or debate ideas where you differ in good faith, that can be a good thing. That's an interesting one because I don't know, people can have totally opposing opinions and still be able to function well together.
Dedeker: Again, it gets a little fuzzy when it's well, what counts as sharing similar basic values, that's something you have to figure out, but I think about something like, honestly, if I'm in a relationship with someone who has a basic value of like, I think monogamy is the most stable relationship structure and our relationships should be moving towards that, our relationship is probably not going to work out super great. Neither of us are going to be able to change each other's opinion on that necessarily. However, if I'm in a relationship with a partner where we share more values about non-monogamy or polyamory about the way that, how those things make relationships better potentially, then it may be safer for us to talk about the minutia of what do I feel about unicorn hunting? What do you feel about casual sex? What do you feel about sex positivity, sex-negativity?
It's okay for us to defer on those things and have friendly debates and it's okay that over the course of our relationship, maybe we do change each other in that in a certain extent. I definitely know that in my healthy relationships, they've been really influential and changing my perspectives on a wide variety of things.
Jase: Absolutely. I definitely think when it comes to those things within polyamory, like kitchen table versus more compartmentalized or things like that, that it's definitely affected by the people that I'm with. In a good way, just my opinions will change seeing how that relationship works with them, seeing how they do relationships. I definitely agree with that one that, but yes, if I were dating someone monogamous, they're not going to convince me to go, "Oh yes, that's actually what I want." The fundamental part doesn't match.
Emily: Helping your partner make changes of things that they're really motivated to make in a way that they want to really be helped and supported, that's a good thing. That's a thing that we can strive to do for our partners and for ourselves. Something like, if your partner's really motivated to go back to school and they do something like ask for your help getting paperwork together, or your advice on something, you can definitely do that. It doesn't mean that you have to be like their parent or their college counselor or something pushing them every step of the way, but if you can help them in that change, if you can help them in that goal, then that's a really positive thing for your relationship.
Jase: I could see this also applying to something where say your partner really wants to make some other kind of life change. Like, I want to be, I don't know, this is a weird example, but become more of a morning person or something like that. Maybe you're excited about that too because you're a morning person and you would like for your schedules to line up a little bit better. Then, yes, absolutely. That seems reasonable to hope for and expect that change since it's something they also want to change, as opposed to it being something you want to impose on them. It goes back to the light bulb wanting to change.
Emily: Absolutely.
Dedeker: Again, I'm going to say it again. We're going to be a broken record on this one, but it just needs to be said that, yes, if there's directly harmful behavior happening, toxic behavior, abusive behavior, it is totally reasonable to ask for and hope for a partner to change that. Let's switch gears and talk about the areas where maybe it's not okay to ask a partner to change or expect that a partner changes. Again, I'm going to throw this in there. We're going to be a little of a broken record on this until the end of the episode, but again, if you're in a relationship where there's toxic, abusive behavior, directly harmful behavior, addictive behavior maybe, it's totally acceptable that A, either you leave that relationship or B, you expect major change on this front or both, porque no los dos?
Let's switch gears and talk about where it's not okay to ask for or expect your partner to change. I think the first thing out the gate is expecting your partner to change their personality traits. For instance, you know that you have this extroverted partner who just really gets a lot of joy out of socializing, but you really wish they would just learn to be okay with staying home all the time.
Emily: They have to right now.
Jase: Who bought it? Pass.
Dedeker: But you know what I mean?
Emily: Yes.
Jase: But I could see that even applying during lockdown times is, I wish my partner would stop being so extroverted.
Emily: Start with the Zoom calls.
Dedeker: Yes, stop calling everybody all the time.
Jase: Well, I was going to say so they can stop being so frustrated and upset during lockdown. I just want them to have a better time. Maybe if they just changed their personality to not be someone who needs so much social interaction.
Dedeker: Makes sense.
Emily: My partner is really happy right now that we're all locked down and he's like, "I'm loving this. I'm such an introvert." And I'm like, "Oh, I got to get out. I got to get out of here."
Jase: Another one is changes in something like how your partner dresses all the time. This one I feel like my hope is that this is less of a current concern for people today. I'm sure it still is sometimes, but I get the impression that from marriage advice books and things like that from generations past that this was a much more common concern of generally specifically a husband dictating the way that his wife would dress.
Emily: Whoa, in what fashion?
Jase: Whatever.
Dedeker: Oh, I've done that.
Emily: What type of fashion? I don't like when you wear those outfits that are so low cut or something?
Dedeker: Oh, no, I've dated someone who said that to me once. It wasn't about a low cutoff outfit, but it was about, I think, wearing a skirt that was too short. I'm not in that relationship anymore.
Jase: That's good.
Emily: That was years ago.
Jase: I guess it does still happen in modernish days, but I hope it's less of a thing.
Dedeker: The way that I think about it now is, I think about it more of looking at your partner and being like, "Oh god, they just dress like a slob all the time, or like a nerd." Or they don't put any effort into their appearance and I'm really frustrated with that. Stuff like that.
Jase: I think that one, it goes into that territory of, if that's something they also want to improve, then, yes, that's reasonable to expect some change there, but if it's not something that they want to do, that's not your business to get them to change that. That's something you need to evaluate for yourself if you're okay with being in that relationship.
Dedeker: No one wants an unasked for personal stylist at the end of the day. It's also not reasonable to expect your partner to completely change or abandon their circle of friends. I'm going to take this and extend this to if you're non-monogamous, it's also not reasonable to expect your partner to completely change or abandoned other partners. It's probably not reasonable to expect your partner to completely change overhaul the relationship they have with other people. Again, this is a tricky one because it's also so context-dependent, but it's the kind of thing where if you're not getting along with a partner, you're not getting along with one of their friends, that's a situation where it might be better to put personal up boundaries or collaborate rather than expecting or demanding, "You can't hang out with this friend anymore."
Jase: Similar to that is expecting your partner to change their relationship orientation, like we talked about non-monogamous or monogamous, or their sexual orientation. Like, "I really want my partner to become bisexual." If that's not something that's fluid to them or that they also want, this is absolutely not. You cannot expect this, you will not get this, no one's going to be happy if you do expect that or think you'll only be happy once they get there. Stop, stop. Give that one up right now.
Dedeker: It's also not okay to expect major change in what your partner eats. Again, if this is not something that they are interested in changing, food shaming anybody is not great. Even though I come from a-- I come from a long family line of food shaming.
Emily: Me too.
Dedeker: I have to try hard to hold back that habit.
Emily: Me too.
Dedeker: But again, similarly, no one wants an unasked for dietician.
Emily: Right now, a lot of people are enjoying food and enjoying that comfort and it's like allow it. Just love it.
Dedeker: Oh, you mean during locked-down stuff?
Emily: Yes, exactly.
Dedeker: Everyone's relationship to food and stress eating is really coming out of the woodworks here. Related to that is also, it's probably not okay to ask for or expect major change in how their partner takes care of their body. This is a hard one for some people, but we really do have to respect people's bodily autonomy because to add it to the list, no one wants an unasked for personal trainer also at the end of the day.
Jase: All Dedekers are really just about unasked for professionals.
Dedeker: Yes, no one wants an unasked for professional. We only want professionals we've consented to and that we've invited in.
Jase: Right.
Emily: Things like on-demand change in your partner's sex drive. Yes, that's not a good one to expect change.
Jase: It's interesting to say on-demand.
Emily: It's like, hey, or if somebody comes to you and is constantly, "I want to have sex, I want to have sex, I want to have sex." Or you're asking for it too much on the other side and I wish that you would just be less into it or more into it.
Jase: I thought you were going for on-demand as in they're the overall change of I want my partner to want different things sexually or more often or something and the other of like, I want you to change right now in this moment into someone who wants to have sex right now or something.
Dedeker: It’s both, it's both.
Jase: That's why I thought you were saying on-demand to emphasize both of those. There's the short-term changes and the long-term.
Dedeker: I wrote the on-demand change specifically because I realize that in relationship and just as human beings, all of us have fluctuations in sex drive, those of us who are sexual. We have natural fluctuations that happen over the course of our lives, depending on the season of life, depending on the day, depending on where you are at in your menstrual cycle, depending on what hormones you're on. It's a kind of thing where I don't want to tell somebody, you are stuck the way that you are and don't expect that's ever going to change as far as your sex drive is concerned, but I do just want to point out that counting on that or expecting that that's going to happen or expecting that that's going to happen to the timeline that you want for your partner is probably just going to cause some sadness and frustration for you both.
Emily: Also on-demand change in your partner's current emotional state. If that emotional state is happening for maybe a period of time to just say like, "Hey, you need to buck up, get over it." Or something along those lines. That's not okay.
Dedeker: Again, this is also a tricky one because it's like, let's say your partner is really, really angry. You can ask them to be like, "Hey, can you lower your voice?" "Hey, can you not stomp around?" You can ask them to change their actions, but you can't ask them, "Hey, stop being angry. Get over it."
Emily: There's a difference there, behavior versus the emotion itself because-- Then ultimately pushing a change on your partner that you want rather than what they want. That goes along with everything that we just talked about like, I want my partner to dress better so I'm going to buy him a bunch of clothes and expect him to wear it or something or like-- Anything along those lines, just a change that is not something that they're excited about, but that you really want to happen. That's probably not okay.
Dedeker: Again, even this list is tricky because in all of these areas, it could still be reasonable again, to ask for actions to change, to ask for a compromise or for you to put up a boundary in order to protect yourself. For example, with the clothing or the way your partner dresses, for instance. Maybe you will be in a situation of like, "Okay, I know that you really don't like wearing button-ups, but since we're going to go to my family and they like getting formal for the holidays, do you mind putting one on just for today on Christmas day?"
Emily: Just for me.
Dedeker: Just for today. You can make that request. Your partner could say, no, could be like, "No, sorry. I got to go in a t-shirt and jeans. That's my most comfortable me." But you can make the request. Or, for instance, you might need to put up a boundary. Let's say you have a partner where they have a friend that comes over that talks about politics and it's really upsetting to you. Instead of it being, "Hey, you can't hang out with that friend anymore." Or, "Hey, I don't want you talking to that friend anymore." Maybe it's like, "When that friend comes over, I'm happy to hang out, but if politics comes up in the conversation, I'm just going to politely excuse myself and go, I don't know, pout around the kitchen or something."
Then there's your personal boundary that doesn't involve needing to expect your partner to change their relationship with their friend. Then with the sex one, maybe you can come to your partner and make a request or ask for a compromise of like, "Hey, sometimes if I approach you for sex and you're not in the mood, I feel sad or a little rejected. When that happens, would be willing to maybe give me a hug, tell me that you still think that I'm sexy, tell me that you like the way that I look and then that can be the end of the interaction."
Emily: That’s a nice one.
Dedeker: Your partner could say, no, they could say, yes, they could say, "Actually, how about we try this?" But again, that's kind of asking for a change that isn't requiring them to completely fundamentally change their sex drive or who they are as a sexual being.
Jase: No, those are all great examples of ways you can take the things, if you have a frustration over something that's on that list where we said, this is probably not a reasonable thing to expect someone to change, there might still be something related to it that you both could collaborate on to make that better for both of you though.
Dedeker: In our second half of the episode, we're going to be moving on to talking about, what do you actually do when you find yourself in a situation of really wishing that your partner would change something? First, we're going to take a break to talk about the ways that you can support this show and keep this show coming at you for free every week. Let's say you're in a situation where you've identified, I really wish my partner would change X, Y and Z. What do I do about it? Do I just collapse and assume they're never going to change and I can't do anything and so I just slide into years of resentment and misery in the rest of my relationship? That's the wrong answer.
That's not correct. First, we're going to lay out some things for you to think about and some things for you to try as well. The first thing that you can do is change your focus. Shift away from focusing on what your partner is doing or the way that they're being and take a little time to focus on yourself with curiosity. You can ask yourself some questions, like, what might be triggering me here? Does this situation remind me of something from my past, from my childhood, from a previous relationship? Do I need a boundary here? Could I ask for something here? Am I bringing in any kind of assumptions or expectations?
I think it's really good to at least take a little bit of time of examining what's going on and getting your thoughts and feelings in order. This isn't necessarily for the purpose of just talking yourself out of your annoyance or talking yourself out of your feelings, but just to get some more clarity and some more information of what's going on inside you.
Jase: I think part of that too is that then when you do have a conversation and talk about compromise, if you've spent some time exploring what's really at the root of this for you, when compromises are proposed, you'll be much more equipped to identify, no, actually that's not going to address what's really going on here for me, or yes, that actually will, or let's change it this way.
Dedeker: Let's bring in an example to work with. I know Emily, you talked about the example of, you said that you've talked to so many people lately that have a particular communication complaints in common?
Emily: Yes. It's funny because we created the Triforce of communications specifically for this. I've had various colleagues at work who are men who come and talk to me about their girlfriends and how their girlfriends are constantly upset when they come to them about a problem and then the men go and tell them, "Oh, well, you should do X, Y and Z thing. You should do this, this and this and calm down about this, whatever." The women get really upset about the fact that their partners were giving them advice rather than just being there for them and being happy or being happy to be sweet to them and poor baby them and be like, "Yes, that sucks, I'm sorry that you're going through this."
It’s definitely one that is a tale as old as time. This happens to a lot of people, but I've seen it happen recently. That's potentially a thing that you could ask for change on, ask for a communication style change on.
Dedeker: Yes. Let's think about this from the perspective of let's say you're the partner where you have an issue with how your partner communicates with you. Your partner jumps to tier three all the time, jumps to advise giving just right out the gate and it really bums you out. Yes, you can ask these questions of like, "What is triggering me here? Is it because I'm missing out on empathy and validation? Is it because it reminds me of every single relationship I've ever had with a man? Is it because sometimes it feels mansplaining? Could there be a boundary here?" Stuff like that. You can get really curious about what's going on first.
Jase: Next, after you've spent some time evaluating things for yourself, if you feel the need to complain about something, do it without blaming or shaming. Blame puts the other party immediately on the defensive and shaming or criticizing someone need to change doesn't work and is shitty. Even if you don't mean it, to be honest, it's shitty. I recommend checking out Episode 232, Criticism and Episode 281 and 282, which was our two-part series on shame if you really want to-
Emily: Shame and shame. What was the first one?
Jase: Just shame origins and shame or something.
Emily: The shame game. Yes, you come up with, that was good.
Jase: Dr. John Gottman says people can change only if they feel that they are basically liked and accepted the way they are. When people feel criticized, disliked and unappreciated, they're unable to change. Instead, they feel under siege and dig in to protect themselves. I think this is so interesting. That idea of if you really want your partner to change, being okay with them as they are now is going to be a more effective way for them to be able to change, which is a little bit of one of those-
Dedeker: Counter intuitive
Jase: -mind paradox things.
Emily: That's good though. It's really good.
Dedeker: Yes, but an example of how you would not want to go about this is going to your partner with your communication complaint and being like, "You act like you just know everything and so you hop straight to giving advice and you don't know everything and you can't just spend your life acting like a know-it-all and it really pisses me off." Probably not going to set a foundation for actual effective change.
Emily: No.
Jase: I would say a good example then on the other side is, if you're the one giving advice and you're sick of your golden advice being shot upon by your partner-
-that similarly, a bad approach would be to come in and be like, "You need to get your shit together because I'm giving you how to fix this. You need to stop complaining and start fixing your problems and I'm trying to help you with that." That's also not a good solution for getting the change that you want.
Emily: Yes, that's shaming your partner on the other end, for sure. On your end, you should seek to understand before being understood. This is a really big one because this can be done with things like open-ended questions. Those are asked with compassion, with good faith about your partner's background, about their dreams, about past baggage or pain, what may have happened in their childhood, stuff like that. Maybe their way of thinking, if they have formulated a big opinion about a specific thing and this is fundamental to them, then ask them about it.
Yes, a family of origin, stuff like that. That's huge because I know for myself if something has come up, even about the dishes or whatever and it's like, "Hey, my parents really scolded me as a kid about the dishes and so when you did the same thing to me, I felt really defensive and really hurt by that." There, just knowing that little nugget of advice-- Or like that nugget about their past can completely change the way that you react to your partner in the future.
Dedeker: Yes. The way that I imagine this playing out with a little example scenario is, maybe you go to your partner and you explain, "Hey, the other day when I was talking about this difficult relationship situation and you hopped straight to advice, it was hard. I realized that actually, I just wanted empathy and holding and yada, yada, yada." As you have the conversation, it's like maybe you can get some new understanding when your partner tells you like, "Oh, yes, you're right, but when I heard what you were going through, I realized I've been through the same exact thing and I really didn't want you to go through the same thing. That's why I hopped straight to telling you, you need to go see a therapist" Or whatever it was.
While that doesn't mean that it excuses your partner or that that means that you don't want them to change their communication, but it can help just generate more understanding and more empathy in the situation, which is going to lead to, ultimately, a better conversation.
Jase: Again, it's doing more to prepare yourself for when you have the conversation about what can we do, what actions could we take together? What compromises could we make? By having more information, similar to examining yourself so you know if a suggestion or a compromise will even solve the problem for you, but also knowing, is this a reasonable compromise to suggest that could work for them? If you have a better understanding of why this is an issue for them or why they believe or do something different from how you do, that that can also, again help. It's just arming you with better tools to be able to have a good compromise. Something that's not only going to work, but is also going to be satisfying to both parties.
Emily: Ideally when talking about this stuff, you should be offering empathy and understanding, even if you don't agree with your partner's way of thinking. That's definitely a big one because you still may be like, "I think they're wrong, but hey, I appreciate you telling me this and this gives me some new data points for the future."
Dedeker: We highly recommend, for opening up this conversation, any kind of conversation or discussion about change or raising a grievance or anything like that is using what the Gottmans call soft startup or softened startup. Again, as in, instead of going straight on the attack, or going straight to the criticism, it follows this super simple formula, which is just I feel X, about Y, I need Z from you. It sounds so simple. Maybe too simple, but when you're in a situation where you're really pissed off, or there's a lot of feelings, or you're feeling really scattered, this is a great simple formula to just start with. Just as a place to start.
Jase: Let's apply it to our example.
Emily: Great. I feel upset when you jump to giving me advice every single time. I need love and understanding and empathy from you, not advice.
Dedeker: Well, my relationship coach wants to jump in there and get all nitpicky about the details.
Emily: By all means, Dedeker.
Dedeker: No, no, no. Okay, sorry. No, Emily, that was great.
Emily: Thank you.
Dedeker: I'm just going to--
Emily: Tweak it a bit?
Dedeker: I'm just going to tweak it a little bit because I'm a little bit worried that by using the words every time, you might be sabotaging.
Emily: Oh, did I say that? I didn't even hear myself say that.
Dedeker: You're listening a little bit.
Emily: Sorry.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: I should know better. I should know better.
Dedeker: Yes, you got it, you got it. You're on the right track. That's all. I just want to make sure that we're not sabotaging any listening.
Emily: Yes, I don't like saying always endeavor every time and stuff like that, so my badass. You're right. Good job teacher. You're right.
Dedeker:
Jase: Maybe also, I feel frustrated and unappreciated when I try to be helpful and give advice and you just tell me that that's not what you want or you get mad at me for it. I need to feel heard and appreciated.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: Too bad.
Dedeker: Jeez. I also recommend people, I'm usually pushing my clients toward what I call an affirmatively stated need, rather than a negatively stated need. As in, instead of telling your partner, "I need you to stop doing XYZ. I need you to not do X, Y and Z." See if you can reframe it to be something that's additive or affirmative. As in, "I need you to ask me before you give advice. I need you to ask me what it is that I'm looking for." Or, "I'd like you to ask me specifically what Triforce am I looking for before responding when I'm in pain." Things like that.
Jase: Yes, that's good. Now that we're armed with this information, we can come together and look for areas of compromise. Where can we be flexible? Where can we get creative? Maybe instead of doing it my way or your way, we pick a new third way, that's maybe silly, maybe it's a ridiculous way to do it, but that still could solve your problem and could become a fun little in-joke in your relationship. Also, along those lines is, where can we experiment and try something temporary? What if we try this new thing we're going to do for a week or a month, or however long?
Having something like a regular check-in radar to have a regular monthly check-in can be a really great way to do that. It's, okay, let's make a plan now, let's talk about a compromise, let's come up, let's brainstorm ideas, decide to try something with the understanding that we're only going to try this till our next radar and then we're going to reevaluate and go, "Wow, that really worked, this ridiculous thing where we said, now, whenever we're going to load the dishwasher, we're going to spin around three times first just to break up our patterns. Suddenly, it works and it becomes this silly little ritual that we do." Or, "I hated that. That just made me so much more mad because then I was dizzy while I was watching you load the dishwasher badly. This is terrible. Let's come up with something else."
Emily: Oh my god.
Jase: It really could be that outlandish because it's temporary because then you get to come back and go, "Did it work? Did it help? Did it change anything? What did it help, what didn't it?" Stuff like that.
Dedeker: Yes. Definitely.
Emily: What if my partner is engaging in behavior that is directly harmful, directly abusive, toxic, something like that? We talked a little bit about what that could include, but things like consistent lying or cheating, whether you're non-monogamous or monogamous, breaches of trust, manipulation, emotional, verbal or physical abuse. We talked about addictive behaviors, stuff like that as well, things like this. What if my partner is engaging in behavior like this?
Dedeker: I want to just put it out there that we're going to be referencing some information from this fantastic book called Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft, where he goes in great detail about-- He's specifically looking at straight-up abusers and straight-up abusive relationships and giving some ideas of, like, can you expect them to change? How do you know that they're actually changing? What needs to happen for them to change? A lot of our resources that we're covering in this section are from that. Go check it out.
Jase: First, to start out, one of our favorite multiamorisms is, it's okay to break up. I just want to start this whole section with that. Also, if this is what's going on, while yes, you should expect and demand change, also you're the one who could get out and leave and break up. We will love you for it and it's a 100% valid option, oftentimes, the best option. Just don't forget that, that that's also okay. Just need to get that out of the way first, that it's okay to just leave the relationship.
Dedeker: If you're in this position, some important things to remember, one of which is that major change in behavior in this area often requires extrinsic motivation rather than intrinsic.
Jase: Excuisny?
Dedeker: Extrinsic.
Emily: Extrinsic.
Dedeker: Extrinsic rather than intrinsic.
Emily: So external rather than internal.
Dedeker: Essentially. Intrinsic motivation is like, I'm doing something because I just feel like it's fun to do, it makes me feel good to do, it's worthy in itself to do. Something like, I don't know, I think about like my meditation practice. There's no one out there encouraging me to do a meditation practice or threatening me to do a meditation practice or anything like that. I'm just doing it because it seems like a good thing for me and I like it. Again, this kind of major behavioral change often requires extrinsic motivation. That means that the change is motivated externally to achieve something good like having a better relationship or a happier partner or to avoid something bad like my partner breaking up with me, for instance.
That's just to say that if you're in a situation that's toxic in this way, it's unlikely that your partner is just going to wake up one day and realize, "I should be a better person. Really, I'm going to change the way that I behave." That often, with this kind of dynamics, it requires much more direct extrinsic motivation. Another thing to remember is that change shouldn't be vague, it should be highly specific. As in a person is changing if you can clearly and specifically see evidence of the change, not just a rough assumption that they're changing or a hope that they're changing.
If your partner has told you, "Yes, I'm going to change this." And you're still full of question marks and you really can't see or feel any evidence of it, that's probably not an indicator of real change.
Jase: Oh, I was just going to say maybe if you say, "Yes, I feel like they might be changing." And your friends go, "How?" And you can't answer that question, that's a good indication that you need to get more specific so that you can know if this is really changing.
Emily: Yes. You may though get a bunch of advice from people like your friends or your family or your metamours if you have multiple partners, your other partners, stuff like that, but you are the only one who will have the best sense of what real change is, not necessarily all of those people potentially giving you advice.
Jase: Yes.
Dedeker: Yes. This comes up where people can be in a situation where that this toxic partner's family members goes to bat for them of like, "Oh, they've gotten a whole lot better than when I first knew them." Or maybe your metamour is like, "Oh, no, no, I feel like they're really changing in my relationship. You should give them another chance. You should stick with them." But it's important at the end of the day that it's like, yes, you have the best sense of whether the needle has actually removed or not.
Jase: Related to that, if this person has not budged on this change for a year or 5 years or 20 years and then finally makes one tiny little change, it can be easy to get too excited and think that this is real progress and the problem's solved even if it's not. Don't downplay your partner's efforts, but also don't believe that now full transformation has happened just because of this one positive interaction, this one instance of them changing the thing. Yes, it's good, but it's not the end.
Emily: Let's talk about what you can do. Creating the context for change, which is more of an internal thing specifically for you, like, what can I do? I guess it's external and internal because some of it is going to be outward.
Dedeker: It's kind of both.
Emily: If you're the one who's wanting the change from the other person, then this is what you personally yourself can do. You can be clear on your asks, on your boundaries, something like, "I need you to speak with me with respect and with kindness even when we disagree. You need to not raise your voice or not slam your fist on the table or something along those lines. If a verbal insult is directed at me during a conversation, I'm going to stop the conversation and leave the room." That's a thing that you specifically can do in order to make your ask happen even if the person that you're with doesn't do what you want in the moment, you can leave the room and make that decision for yourself.
Jase: That's also, I think, such a good example of boundaries because I still see boundary used so often as something you're trying to enforce upon your partner, or something you just stand there and be like, "Hey, stop keep going over my boundary." That the boundary is really something you do yourself. I think this is such a great example too of specifying it beforehand. Then it's not, oh, the conversation got heated and you just ran off to pout because you couldn't handle it. It's no, this has been clarified beforehand. This is a clear boundary, if this happens, I'm going to do this to take care of myself and you know. Being very clear beforehand about the ask and about your boundaries, I think, that's a really nice example of that.
Emily: Then be clear on what your expectations are. The treatments that you will tolerate, what you won't tolerate in something like you expect that both of us will put effort in to not using things like insults or name-calling or put-downs when we're in a disagreement. That's an expectation personally for yourself and for them, that that one you can do.
Jase: The term put-downs just brought me back to elementary school. That's a while.
Dedeker: Did you get put down in elementary school?
Jase: No, we had a lot of education in my school about not using put-downs. That term put-down was very much like--
Emily: What's a put-down? Like, you're silly, your hair looks silly. I don't know.
Dedeker: The dictionary says it's a remark intended to humiliate or criticize someone.
Emily: Yes. Your hair looks silly.
Jase: Your hair looks silly, yes. Nailed it.
Emily: Jase just got a haircut, so no, it doesn't look silly, it looks good. Well done.
Jase: Oh, thank you.
Emily: Finally, focus on your own healing and strength. If the change doesn't happen, maybe you're ready to move on, maybe you're like, "You know what, this is it. We're done here." Things like therapy, support systems, education on what's happening, on what's happening maybe with your partner or what's happening internally with yourself, things like that can all be really empowering here.
Dedeker: Yes. A question I like to ask clients who are in dysfunctional relationships is, I like asking people, "How can you set yourself up so that even if you don't get the thing that you want from this person, you'll still be okay so that you're not just purely hanging on to needing this particular change so that you're ready and in a good enough space that if it doesn't happen, then you know that you can walk away from the relationship relatively unscathed or relatively whole feeling?
Jase: Or at least safe.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: We've set the stage. Next is signs of real change. How can you tell? We said before, don't be vague about it, look for specifics. What does that mean? To go to our example before about even when we disagree, not using insults, look for your partner doesn't belittle you or mock you, look for an absence of those behaviors or I guess, just seeing that they respect your opinion even when they disagree, even in those situations that normally would cause that to happen.
That you're able to talk about your complaints, to make your requests without fear of punishment for that, or backlash for that or retaliation later, I think is another one. You are free to express a wide range of emotions, anger, sadness, frustration, et cetera, even when they're not related to your partner's behavior, that it's a safe place for you to have feelings that you have.
Dedeker: Another sign of real change to look out for is, are you free to express a wide range of emotions, not just your happy emotions, but also anger, sadness, frustration, even at times when that sadness and frustration is related to your partner's behavior because that's the thing that can happen in more toxic or more dysfunctional situations as well, where I'm not allowed to be sad if it's related to something that you did in the past, I'm not allowed to be angry if it's related to an action that you took that actually hurt me, but if your partner is able to make space for that, then that's different.
Jase: Another indication that real change is possible is if there's a willingness to compromise and collaborate on solutions, that they're proactive in coming up with the solutions with you and collaborating and not just saying, "Sure, whatever." Then seeing consistent and real effort being made toward making changes or the action points that the two of you agreed on. If you can actually see the evidence, clear evidence that they are trying those things and that they're trying to enact them. Those are ways that you can tell that change could be possible and that it might be on its way.
Dedeker: We're also going to run through some misleading signs of change that may not actually be change, like Jase was talking about earlier that sometimes after it's been so long of a partner not compromising or not budging and then they make one tiny little change, you can get excited and feel like, "Everything's different now." When that maybe is not the case. Along those lines, it could be, yes, maybe your partner tones down the bad behavior, but in that vacuum there's no good behavior coming in either. It can be like, "Sure, okay, fine, I won't raise my voice, I won't use insults, I won't fight in this particular way, but I'm also going to disengage and detach and I'm not going to fill that void with also healthy communicative behavior."
That's another really important thing to be looking out for. Related is this idea of maybe the volume is turned down. As in maybe your fights, have less throwing things, yelling at each other, insults, maybe that's gone, but the words, the sentiments are still the same, still harmful. That's, again, a risk of more abusive or toxic people, people with toxic or abusive behavior is going to therapy, sometimes either individual or a couples' therapy is they come out with a 'softer, gentler toolkit' where they can still be manipulative and cause harm and damage.
If a partner is trying to tell you, "I can change only if you can change." Now that can be a little bit tricky because sometimes this can feel a little bit like compromise, but the difference being that it's like if your partner's holding their behavior change hostage, essentially, or for ransom of, "Well, I'm only going to tone down using insults or dropping swear words or whatever only if you stop seeing this particular partner." That's not an actual sign of real change. Or similarly, if you're getting the sentiment of, I can change only if you stick around to help me change. As in, don't take a break, don't break up with me, don't take time to clear your head. My change is dependent on you needing to be here. That's also a red flag.
Jase: Yes, because change does come from within. Maybe that's a distinction that might help, is that the two of you could compromise about what your goals are, or what you would like behavior to be like, but doing the actual changing, each person does their own changing on their own. That's not something that like that example of, "Well, I can only make this change if you're here helping me do it." That's not a good sign, especially the more serious the bad behavior is.
Emily: Also criticizing you for not recognizing the change. Their internal change should be enough proof, even if you don't see anything different. Saying something like, "I really hate the fact that you didn't see that I made this little change for you." Or like, "I did the dishes one day or something," Or, I don't even know, it's something along those lines and that you have to call it out or have a celebration every time one thing happens. If it's small and if it's internal and if it's something that you see happen over time and it really makes a difference, that's a bigger thing. If you're criticized for not calling it out, that's maybe an indicator that something's not actually happening. Then if your partner is nicer, but still disrespectful and coercive, yes. That's
Jase: Reminds me of the volume turned down thing that Dedeker says.
Dedeker: It's also related to cycle abuse stuff of a honeymoon period, is that that's so common that someone may suddenly be nicer, or more romantic, or more flirty, or more tender, but if that change doesn't last, if that doesn't carry over even into the moments when we're in conflict and in disagreement, that's probably not an indicator of real change.
Emily: Finally, as we said before and as we have said many times on this podcast, if it doesn't work, if change doesn't happen and if you find yourself in a cycle of just bad behavior, coming potentially from the two of you, or from your partner, then it's okay to break up. Change may just not happen. If you're asking for change and it doesn't happen over a period of time, you're perfectly able to go and break up with the person. Do it. Just do it.
Jase: I always love to remind people too that, even if we're not talking about abuse here, there's plenty of reasons to break up with someone that's not abuse and that's not them being a bad person. It may just be an incompatibility with you too. Even if we're talking about one of these more just fundamental belief differences, or lifestyle differences or something, it's also totally okay, if you learn that that's not compatible to not be in that relationship. It doesn't mean that they're bad, they don't have to be wrong, you don't have to be wrong, but it's also okay to not be in that relationship anymore. I know that that's hard. I know I say that and I make it sound like, "Oh, that's so easy." I get that that's hard, but oftentimes, I would say almost always in those situations, that's the best option for both of you, really, even if it might not feel like it at the time.
Dedeker: We're going to stick around for a bonus episode. We're going to be discussing a lot of different things, our theories about where lasting relationship change actually comes from, talking a little bit about power dynamics and who actually starts the change in relationship. Stick around for that if you're one of our Patreon subscribers. We want to hear from all of our listeners. Do you think it is ever reasonable to expect your partner to change? Have you witnessed a partner change? Definitely check out our Instagram stories where we'll be asking some questions and you can weigh in on that.