320 - Limerence and NRE: The Dark and Light Sides of the Force

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NRE and Limerence

You may be familiar with NRE (new relationship energy) but this episode looks more at its dangerous twin, limerence. We’re gong to go over how it differs from NRE, the research and psychology behind it, and some ways you can move past it and towards the more positive aspects of NRE instead.

Transcript

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Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we are talking about both the lovely and the dangerous sides of starting a new relationship. Perhaps you could say we're looking at the light side and the dark side of the force on this day, May the 4th be with you.

Emily: There it is.

Jase: In addition to discussing new relationship energy or NRE, we're also going to look at its dangerous sift twin, limerence. Specifically, we're going to look at what limerence is, how it differs from NRE, how it's being researched and used, and finally, some ways that you can move toward the more positive aspects of NRE and away from some of the pitfalls involved with falling in love or lust with someone new.

Dedeker: Well, I always love a star wars metaphor.

Emily: Oh, of course, because it's your favorite.

Dedeker: I never say no to that.

Emily: I feel like NRE is one of those low-hanging fruits of polyamory speech talk, things like that.

Dedeker: Polyamory podcast topics, perhaps?

Emily: Yes, there you go. Like jealousy, it's kind of similar in that fashion, but it is important to talk about. Some of you out there may know what it is, NRE. I'm sure many of our listeners know, but let's briefly go over what it is. This term originated in Usenet postings in the '80s and '90s, and it's grown in prevalence since then. I don't really know what Usenet is. Is that like Myspace, but before Myspace?

Dedeker: Of a fashion.

Jase: In a sense.

Emily: Well, and you said that also the term polyamory came about around the same time also on Usenet?

Jase: Yes, I'm pretty sure.

Emily: Whatever it is.

Dedeker: Can you explain to Emily and our listeners what Usenet is or was?

Emily: Yes, you're a little older than we are, Jase.

Jase: This is before my time as well, but essentially what it is is like a message board where you could post things, but this is before we had centralized storage for the internet. It was this decentralized way that different computers could be networked together. A lot of times these would be at universities. Then also as we got into the '80s and '90s, people could have home dial-in connections and stuff as well, but it was-- I think the way it worked was that individual machines would store part of the information on it, or it would get saved somewhere and you'd have to call in to retrieve the information. Essentially all it boils down to is it's an early days of a message board.

Emily: That's pretty impressive.

Dedeker: Very early. In internet terms, may as well have been 200,000 years ago.

Jase: Yes, pretty much.

Emily: Go on.

Jase: The deal with NRE is that it's not an official psychological term. It's not in a lot of dictionaries, and so there's not a clear definition for it either. However, there is I would say if you just look at the different ways that it's used, particularly within the polyamory community, but it's also used now to describe all sorts of relationships, this is the definition that's on the Wikipedia page that I actually think is a pretty good summary of it.

Here it is, it's a state of mind experienced at the beginning of sexual and romantic relationships, typically involving heightened emotional and sexual feelings and excitement. NRE begins with the earliest attractions and may grow into full force when mutuality is established and it can fade over a number of months or years.

Dedeker: We've done a number of episodes diving into let's say the physiobiological basis of what happens in your brain when NRE is happening. It's not just a, it's all in your head. It's a chemical reaction that takes place in your body. I will say that I do wish more people outside of the non-monogamy community knew what NRE was, or just knew that it was a term because I do find myself in everyday situations wanting to refer to it and sometimes even referring to it and getting a blank stare and then I need to explain what it is and I still get a blank stare and I feel bad and awkward.

Jase: I think it is so useful and it's really, there's nothing about it.

Emily: It's in every type of relationship.

Jase: There's nothing about it that's unique to polyamory, right?

Emily: Totally.

Dedeker: Of course, it applies equally well to when people are starting out a monogamous relationship. It was originally used in the context of contrasting it with ORE, which again is also an unofficial undefined term, but some people define ORE as ongoing relationship energy or old relationship energy.

Emily: Which is a mean way of putting it. Ongoing is nice. That's like a nice little buffer around the

Jase: I think that's why people started using that.

Emily: Yes, that's good.

Dedeker: This old stale relationship.

Emily: Yeah, exactly, ugh.

Dedeker: I like ERE, established relationship energy.

Emily: I like that too.

Jase: It's just not really used widely.

Dedeker: No, I tend to refer to it as just bonding because that's literally what it is is that when we pass through NRE, what's on the other side of it quite literally on the chemical level on our brains is a shift to those bonding hormones. I think that's what ERE is, is that we feel just more bonded to somebody which is an energy all of itself that feels good, but it's a little bit different from how NRE feels.

Generally in this community and the way people talk about it is considered desirable. Depending on who you talk to, I do see some resources that are like, "Oh my God, NRE. It's such a terrible drug. Be careful."

Emily: It's a good drug, but it's a terrible one.

Dedeker: Yes, and so a caution is generally suggested when it comes to things like decision-making of course, like we always say on our show, don't sign anything in the first year, but NRE itself is not something that you need to avoid. It's not about don't fall in love with anybody, don't let yourself feel these things. If you're feeling these things, that means something really terrible is going to happen. It's not about, "Hey, cutoff everything within you that is capable of feeling NRE."

Emily: Now we're going to talk about limerence, which is something that I had not heard about before this.

Dedeker: I had heard of limerence and honestly, I thought it was literally the same thing as NRE. I thought limerence was just the scientific word for NRE. When you're talking about these light sides and dark sides of the forest, I don't know, this is new to me.

Jase: When limerence was first presented to me, it was also more of this general term for the same thing as NRE, essentially. I thought the same thing that it was the technical term. Over the years that it's been researched, the focus of that research has intentionally by the researchers shifted to focus more on the negative aspects of this. We'll also see when we get into it, how, in some ways, it's not just like the dark side of NRE, it's actually a slightly different thing too. They just overlap a little bit.

Emily: The concept of limerence spruce originated in Dr. Dorothy Tennov's research in the mid-1960s, Tennov coined the term limerence in 1977, publishing it in her 1979 book, Love And Limerence: The Experience of Being In Love. I like that a lot. That's really a sweat tittle.

Dedeker: Bold of this woman to repeat love twice in her book title. My goodness.

Emily: Oh, I know she used the word twice. Well, love, it has grubby ties.

Dedeker: It's true.

Emily: What is love? Baby don't hurt me. There is no one definition and it's changed a bit over time, but here's one from a different doctor, Dr. Lynn Willman, the definition is an involuntary potentially inspiring state of adoration and attachment to a limerent object. LO, not LOL, just LO, involving intrusive and obsessive thoughts, feelings, behaviors from euphoria to despair contingent on perceived emotional reciprocation.

That seems a little more like desperate love or something along those lines. The kind of love that I had in high school and college when I was really into someone and they could tell and so they broke up with me.

Dedeker: I definitely had a collection of limerent objects in my life.

Emily: Objects?

Jase: That's the term.

Dedeker: That's the term.

Emily: Uh-oh, LO.

Dedeker: The LO.

Jase: LOL.

Emily: Got it.

Jase: Limerent Object Love.

Emily: Object Limerent Love.

Dedeker: Love.

Emily: Love talk.

Jase: It's just like Dr. Dorothy Tennov, we repeat love a second time.

Emily: There you go.

Jase: Or we just throw it in extra. Your Limerent Object Love, LOL.

Dedeker: I can definitely tell from this definition I would put this more in the Sith category. Just it feels like a very Anakin Skywalker thing to do.

Emily: Yes.

Jase: It is kind of, yes. Okay, some things to know about this. This was really interesting is that this started out when this book was published. It was limerence was a little bit more of a neutral, sort of has some light side and dark side aspects to it. However, in the researchers, who have succeeded her and who are continuing to research this, she's no longer alive but researchers who are still currently researching this, have specifically been working to focus it more on the negative aspects, essentially as like for therapists or people to recognize to then help treat for their patients.

It has become a little more focused that way. If you out there listening are also someone who's heard of this being like, "Wait, I don't think this is supposed to be just negative." That that is a thing that is intentionally shifting in terms of what this term means. Some of the things to realize is that this was originally studied strictly in the context of monogamous, heterosexual, allosexual relationships. The research still, very much focused on monogamy and allosexual relationships.

Emily: What's allosexual?

Dedeker: Opposite of asexual.[

Jase: Yes, not gray, spectrum at all.

Emily: Got it. Got it. Got it.

Jase: Yes, so, and again, this is so common with a lot of psychological research, where your subjects you have are college students. There tends to be some bias there. There has been some work, I think, to diversify this a little bit, but really limerence, even though it was coined in the late '70S, is really not very widely studied yet. It's still like a fairly young concept, I guess, in psychological terms.

What I found in reading it, even though there's not research about this, but really when you are looking into it and you'll see this in the episode, it applies equally well to non-monogamous relationships, asexual relationships. I actually found some really interesting blog posts specifically on an asexual website that was talking about limerence or a romantic limerence.

It can apply to those things, but that's not really what's being researched. Just something to be aware of. Yes, I guess that last thing of reminding that, in this context, we're talking about it mostly as a negative and potentially even dangerous thing.

Dedeker: Apparently some researchers even want to include limerence as a psychological condition in the DSM. For our listeners who don't know, the DSM is the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. It's a very, very, very controversial text that has been updated and revised many times over the years, sometimes in good ways, sometimes in not so good ways, but it's essentially functions as the gold standard for determining what do we count as a mental illness or not?

Some people want to include as a psychological condition in the DSM. I don't necessarily want to throw my weight behind that being a thing because that seems like it needs a lot more research and consideration. The term itself limerence is arbitrary. It was not derived from any previous word. Tennov decided to use the word just because it sounded nice essentially to her and like two of her research students that are like, "Oh yes, that sounds good." She just plucked it from the air, which is pretty fun.

I am curious about how limerence, as far as on the spectrum of when we're getting into like obsession and getting into like mental disorders, I was wondering in your research, have you found, is there an overlap or a connection with limerence and someone who has like erotomania or like obsessive love disorder or things like that?

Jase: Yes. The research is very much grouped in together with those things, as well as like sex addiction. Then it's also grouped together with anxiety disorders and obsessive-compulsive disorders. It's related to all those things. Depression is also related, but that's more of like a symptom of it, whereas anxiety disorders can feed into limerence and vice versa. Again, it's really varies. Some of the studies looking at it.

Especially Dr. Tennov's research originally was focused on this as this is a thing that almost everyone experiences that like the vast majority of people experience, not as, like, if you experienced this, something's wrong with you, you have the disorder. I think in the same way that being a little bit obsessive or a little bit compulsive or a little bit anxious, those are also normal things.

Yes, with all of this, there is this, "We need to make a distinction between, if we're at the level of this is a very serious clinical disorder that's really negatively affecting your life, that's something that you should seek some professional help with." Particularly CBT cognitive behavioral therapy has been shown to be effective with anxiety disorders as they relate to limerence.

Anyway, that's something to look into if at any point in this episode, you're hearing this and going, "Yikes, this is me, and also this is very serious. I need some help with this," then definitely check that out. If it's not keep in mind that this is something that most people experience to some degree at various points in their life. It's not like you're broken if you feel these things.

Emily: Yes. It feels like many of the things that we talk about on the show. It's like, "Okay, if this is debilitating in your life and really making it more difficult for you to go about your day-to-day tasks, then yes, perhaps seek some professional help." Otherwise yes, all of us, it happens to all of us. Certainly did happen to me in the past.

Anyways, different researchers have slightly different takes on limerence. None of them really address consensual non-monogamy at least not that we've found in researching. You may find some variety and online articles, but we're going to do our best to cover an overview, while also including a non-monogamous context for these ideas and for what we're going to talk about.

Dedeker: Yes. The point of this in pointing out the difference between limerence and NRE is again, just to be helpful for you. Again, it can't be overstated. If you're feeling something that's more on the limerent side, it doesn't mean that something is necessarily wrong with you. It's common feelings, but it can be helpful to learn, to identify and distinguish them from maybe the more positive or helpful experience of NRE, just so that we can, all of us individually avoid unnecessary suffering or making choices that will negatively affect our own lives or the lives of others.

Jase: Yes. let's get into some of the key components of limerence, and what makes it up, and then a little bit later, we'll get into specifically contrasting it with NRE, but I think some of that will come up as we go through these as well. The first one is uncertainty. Limerence tends to focus on the desire for a relationship with someone without knowing if that's reciprocated.

That's also something that's a little bit different from NRE. This could be a question of whether they're into you at all or it could be a question of, are they interested in me the same way? Although that's less common, the research tends to be more about that, "You know, I really long for this person but I, for some reason, feel like I can't tell them that. I don't know how they feel about me. I'm having to guess. I'm having to like read into their subtle interactions of what does that mean? I think maybe they like me, maybe they don't. I don't know."

Emily: What, Dedeker?

Dedeker: This is just a little uncomfortable just because it's bringing up all my memories of my terrible limerence experiences, honestly, and all the embarrassing, awful things that I did. Yes, this uncertainty piece really strikes home, particularly from times that I've been trying to date people who speak a different language than I do. Like particularly when I'm dating in Japan, sometimes. Like I've developed some crushes on people where our only common language is Japanese, which I'm maybe conversationally fluent in but not 100% fluent in.

It's also just very different cultural and social cues. Yes, I definitely found myself in situations of like, "I don't know if I can even ask this question if they're interested," because maybe that'd be super rude. I don't even know what's the best way to ask it in a proper way linguistically so it wouldn't come across as weird. I just can't ask. I'm just going to sit in this uncertainty wondering, "What the heck is going on with this person?"

Emily: Sounds pretty tough.

Jase: That's actually, yes, exactly it. Limerence also thrives in the face of adversity. That adversity could be external. There's some reason we can't be together or they couldn't express their feelings for me because I'm married or they're married or we speak different languages, something like that, or it

could be an internal, like an entirely internal adversity like, "Oh, I'm too shy," or "I'm just unable to speak to them," or "I'm too nervous," or something, but it really thrives on that uncertainty and so there tends to need to be some sort of reason why that uncertainty lasts longer.

Emily: This is a wacky example, but I don't know if you know the Stephen Sondheim show Assassins.

Dedeker: Oh, yes.

Emily: Yes. Well, this reminds me of John Hinckley, like being super in love with Jodie Foster.

Dedeker: Yes, that that came up in the limerence Wikipedia article.

Emily: Oh, yes. There you go. Exactly. Yes. That's how unfortunately I feel that it's characterized with certain people in our film and television, too, because I thought of Glenn Close immediately in that one film--

Jase: Fatal Attraction?

Emily: That's the one. Yes.

Dedeker: Let's be fair, that most mental disorders or mental health issues are not really given a fair shake by the film and TV industry.

Emily: No. I completely agree with you. Yes. I think that there's something to be said there about this as well and just how certain people are characterized to these extreme places with stuff like this. Yes.

Dedeker: Yes, that makes sense.

Jase: Yes. An example that's less vilified is like Dedeker just rewatched The Great Gatsby movie recently, the Baz Luhrmann one, and that very much Gatsby's got that whole limerence thing going on with his LO his limerence object being--

Emily: With what's her .

Dedeker: The green light.

Jase: The green light. The green lantern.

Jase: What's her name?

Emily: Ryan Reynolds.

Dedeker: Daisy.

Emily: Daisy.

Jase: Daisy.

Emily: Carey Mulligan character that.

Dedeker: Yes, Carey Mulligan.

Jase: Yes. But anyway, that type of thing of like that idea of like holding a candle out for someone and not quite knowing if they feel the same way, even though you've interacted with them. Maybe there have been some indications, but there's still that uncertainty that could last like in that case, someone's entire life several years.

Dedeker: Several years, right.

Jase: Yes.

Dedeker: Yes. Another key part of limerence is intrusive thinking as well as an intense longing for reciprocation. Like the start of many relationships, this can start just as initial feelings of attraction, just as a crush, or a squish, or whatever you want to call it, depending on how you identify, but then it can grow into something that's a little bit more obsessive.

I don't want to make it sound like it's necessarily the person's fault, because sometimes it comes down to just thoughts of the limerent object or the person that you're attracted to just being persistent and intrusive and you don't necessarily have control of that. I don't think when someone gets obsessed with something or somebody, I don't know if they necessarily directly choose, "Oh this is what I'm going to do and it's going to be great."

It may be characterized by fantasies that are grounded in reality. This is in contrast to things like sexual fantasies or daydreams that can be a little bit more fantastical, less likely to play out in real life. It could be fantasies, like, swooping in to do something for the limerent object. I don't know how I feel about using this limerent object. It's a little bit funny.

Emily: No, objectifies someone truly in that way.

Dedeker: Yes, that's odd.

Jase: The limerent target. The LT.

Dedeker: The LTE. I'm just going to try to sprinkle in just maybe making a little bit more human. So just like saving the person that they're thinking about and then finally, this person loves them in return. Or the person that they're obsessed with proclaims their love in a climactic moment. Sometimes even as climactic as like, cinematic as like, "Oh, when they're dying in my arms." You know which is a little bit intense.

Jase: That's when they finally tell me. Yes.

Dedeker: I mean, that's straight up from Les Mis.

Jase: All over our movies and books and plays, and--

Emily: That's why it's so fascinating that people are like, "Oh, well, this is--" That the direction that the research is going is talking about this as a disorder. I guess it only is when it gets to a certain point or that this is an issue.

Jase: Actually, a lot of sense. I think part of our over-romanticizing of it is part of what's made this more of a problem.

Emily: Sure. Maybe, yes.

Dedeker: Yes, that's the thing is, I think that it's a little bit fuzzy because socially and culturally, I think we have a hard time determining what's the line where it crosses into unhealthy, because, and so much of our media does romanticize and encourage these unhealthy versions of it. I like to believe that maybe that's getting better, especially as culturally we get better understandings of, let's say, consent, but we have this long cultural history of making this really romantic, really troublesome behaviors.

I don't know, so that's going to be the hard thing is finding out where that line actually is. Ultimately to rope it back to this intrusive thinking that there can be this sense that all thoughts or events seem to link back to this particular person, the limerent object, in some particular way.

Jase: Before we go on to talk about the rest of limerence, and then comparing and contrasting with NRE and talking about some ways you can help guide yourself into more positive relationships, we're going to take a quick break to talk about how you can support this show, help keep this content coming to you all for free, please give it a listen and support our sponsors, because that directly helps us.

Emily: All righty, now we're going to continue talking a little bit more about limerence. Limerence also includes fear of rejection, especially extreme shyness in the presence of the limerent person, the limerent object, the limerent target.

Dedeker: What if we said the limer-- Well if we say limerent person, it sounds like the person who's feeling limerence.

Jase: The limeree.

Emily: Oh, yes the limeree. I like that.

Dedeker: The limeree, that's good. Let's try that. We'll try it.

Jase: Limeree-lim-limeree-lim-limeroo.

Emily: There's a lot of that. Well, a lot of film and television today. Also exaggeration of the limeree. Ability to only see the admirable qualities of the limeree. Boy, yes, that is very true. Either avoid seeing the negative traits or even rendering them into another positive attribute.

Jase: That's what I find so fascinating, that thing, it's not just that I'm ignoring the negative things, but I'm actually turning them into a positive thing. I have absolutely done this before.

Dedeker: Oh yes.

Jase: We’re all like oof, oof.

Emily: An ability to invent reasonable explanations for why any action might be a sign of hidden desire from the limeree. Yes, if they're kind of like, "Nah, man," but you're still like, "No, but they love me."

Dedeker: Like this is the kind of thing of, just to pull an example out of the air, not like I've ever been here, right, or anything. Come on.

Emily: I feel like it out of the three of us, you would be the one most in control of the situation.

Dedeker: Oh, I don't know about that.

Emily: Of course, I've just seen so many people fall in love with you that I'm like, "Yes, everyone just loves her."

Dedeker: I think I just hide it well, but I think you're texting with this person and they stop responding to your text for like a day. It could be that'd be so many different explanations come up, right? It could be they're not that into you. It could be they just got busy. It could be they straight up forgot. It could be they didn't get the notification.

It could be, if I'm talking with my most limerent self, it could be that he actually got a little bit freaked out by things getting too intimate too quickly and so he pulled away because he feels that for me too, and he wants to make sure that we're going about things slowly. Your mind can really interpret things quite creatively.

Emily: Yes, indeed.

Jase: Yes, and like, Emily, you were saying that it tends to thrive in uncertainty. If someone's like, "I absolutely do not like you and never want to be in a relationship with you."

Emily: You're like, "Why?".

Jase: That's actually very likely to end the limerence, eventually might take a little while, but that's actually like--

Dedeker: For some people.

Jase: Well, I think then we're getting into something a little bit different. Like in delusion if we're really not thinking that, but in the research on limerence. Yes, that like one of the ways to get out of limerence is to have just a clear, "They don't like me, now I can move on," that is one of the ways that they talk about being able to get over it. I think, yes, let's not go too far into-- I don't know the whole like no means yes territory, I think that's maybe the another darker thing that's a little bit different from just limerence.

Emily: Yes. For me, in the past, that ambiguity of well, "Will they, won't they," is the thing that really caused me to maybe hold out hope for that carrot somewhere off in the distance.

Dedeker: That limerent carrot. Maybe that's what it is, it's a limerent carrot.

Emily: LCD.

Dedeker: Could that be less objectifying?

Emily: Yes.

Dedeker: If they're a carrot instead of an object.

Jase: Your LCD soundsystem.

Emily: Tasty treat. Yes it's a tasty treat. Okay. There are also physical symptoms that can happen, like shortness of breath, aching in the chest, perspiration, heart palpitations. All of these things are really funny because I feel like people experience

them, when they are in NRE as well from time to time or, yes, like when you're in throes of love, initially you're like, "Oh my God, I'm just so obsessed with this person."

Jase: The last major category we'll talk about is just the intense hope and intense despair, or like the euphoria and depression that you'll oscillate back and forth between with this. Part of this is that limerence needs these small doses of hope. That's why I was saying, if there's this clear, "I'm not interested at all," or if you just have no contact at all, which is harder in our modern-day, but if you just have no contact at all with the limerent object, that it will tend to go away usually.

It just tends to go away without that, but those little bits of encouragement, like you were saying Emily, that just that little bit of, "Oh, they did something nice this one time," It's like, "Ooh, maybe there's hope there." Maybe they're not intending to lead you on, but because you're-

Emily: Maybe they are.

Jase: Or maybe they are, but either way, you're in that state of like, you're eager for those little crumbs. You're going to grab at those. Then you have that intense joy when it feels like maybe my feelings are reciprocated and then this intense despair when it feels like they're not. Similar to addictive patterns, just in general is that that feeling of wanting it badly, the euphoria of getting it, and then the depression of not having it and that cycle.

Dedeker: Yes. This is a real emotional roller coaster.

Emily: This is an emotional episode, yes.

Dedeker: It makes me think of many things. It makes me think of, I learned once upon a time that there was like this old superstition or this old belief that if you ate ant eggs with honey, it could make you fall out of love. When I first read that first, I was like, "A, gross, and then B, that's weird. Who would be wanting to fall out of love necessarily?"

Thinking back on my experiences that are a little bit more this limerent side, these like ups and downs and swinging back and forth, that intense hope intense despair, if someone had offered me some ant eggs with honey and was like, "This may help," I would have swallowed it. Also, there's other cultures that eat ant eggs. We can't go into it too much.

Jase: That's true.

Emily: Yes, I was wondering if it was-- It must not have been an American thing that I know of.

Dedeker: Not that I know of, although maybe these cultures, no one is in love with anyone ever. They're just eating ant eggs all the time.

Jase: That would be great.

Dedeker: Probably not.

Emily: Or they're just not in love with those that don't serve them well. Gosh, I would like that.

Dedeker: That'd be nice. That'd be cool.

Jase: That'd be cool.

Emily: I would like to go to my past self and be like, "Yes, you didn't need to go there with a lot of these people." Maybe, I would have done it to him.

Dedeker: The least vegan thing I can offer you, ant eggs mixed with honey but just take it. Good luck. Let's spend some time comparing this again to NRE and a little compare and contrast because there are some similarities. According to the research, both NRE and limerence tend to be shortish term.

From the research, we read anywhere from six months up to three years for NRE slash limerence in most cases, tends to be. I'm assuming that this is like three years provided the situation is staying fairly stable? We're still getting these little doses of like hope maybe along the way that sustain it.

Jase: One of the limerence researchers said their studies found three years on average for limerence.

Dedeker: Oh boy?

Jase: Which I was surprised at how long that is with some lasting decades and some being short like just a few months.

Dedeker: Like Gatsby.

Jase: Yes. I don't know, I don't know what to make of that, but they're both generally shortish, right?

Emily: Yes, interesting, okay.

Dedeker: Both of them can feel exciting and slightly addictive. I think that is-- It is part of the joy of NRE, is this feeling like you can't get enough of somebody. That's such a rare thing. That only lasts for a short period of time. That's not necessarily a bad thing for it to feel slightly addictive I think. In both cases, it can dominate a lot of your thoughts. In both cases, these both happened to a large percentage of people.

Not necessarily everybody. In both cases, both limerence and NRE can put a strain on existing relationships if you're non-monogamous. I think it can also put a strain on relationships if you're monogamous.

Jase: Different kinds of strange.

Dedeker: Yes, on your friends, or your family members, people who are sick of hearing you talk about this person, like definitely

Emily: My mother literally said that to me before like, "Just, you need to stop talking about this person."

Jase: Limerence in the research also does come up a lot with someone who's married but starts to experience the limerence for someone else or that someone else's married. It can cause strain in a lot of ways, yes.

Dedeker: In both cases, you tend to focus on only the good, attractive qualities of the other person. In both cases, you may have a harder time or a fuzzier time being able to see their negative traits or red flags.

Jase: Yes, that's why we say don't make any important decisions. Especially don't sign anything in that first year, although maybe up to three years it turns out.

Emily: Whoa. All right, let's talk about the differences between each, between NRE and limerence. Limerence is based in uncertainty while NRE is usually based on mutual excitement. Yes, NRE usually happens when you are absolutely like in a relationship or in the throes of a sexual relationship or something with someone else for sure.

Dedeker: There's a sense of the other person is reciprocating.

Emily: Camaraderie. Yes, absolutely. Limerence is generally described as having much lower lows in between periods of really extreme highs. I would definitely agree with that that there are more-- There's more turbulence than in NRE, where it is just like this baseline really high feeling for maybe months or up to a year or so.

Jase: Yes, or like the lows, when you're not with that person, it's more of this like, "Urgh, this is frustrating," rather than like, "Oh God. They don't love me. I'm so sad." There's all the different quality that the lows aren't quite the same degree of low.

Emily: Limerence is also usually more secret at least from potentially the other person involved. You may be secretly pining for them or the hints that you or they are giving are more subtle than an NRE.

Dedeker: Yes, I guess that makes sense. If you're feeling like there's, for some reason, I cannot directly communicate with this person or I can't directly ask them if they're into me that--

Jase: Or I'm just too nervous

Dedeker: Or I'm just too nervous or whatever, there's more of that pressure to keep it secret.

Emily: In addition to being more emotionally painful for the person experiencing limerence, it can also lead to uncomfortable situations and or confusion for the limerent person, limeree sometimes.

Jase: The limeree object.

Emily: Yes, sometimes even it can be a little scary for them like, "I really really do not want this person's affections."

Jase: Yes, and it makes sense. This is one of those ones that for me, thinking back is just like, "Yikes. How many times have I maybe felt really strongly about someone, but then nervous or not able to talk to them about it or something, and I've had to interpret in my head, 'Are they into me or not?'" Some of those have led to like a very weird, uncomfortable situation then where like I'm proclaiming my feelings and thinking that they are going to reciprocate and they don't because all that was in my head leading up to it.

Now they're really uncomfortable and weird feeling, as opposed to, having some a more direct communication about it earlier and not trying to do all this like mind reading, reading between the lines type of a thing. That's where it not only negatively affects you but can also make the other person the one who supposedly you like a lot feel shitty.

Emily: I feel like as a society, we would benefit much from being able to have real communication with each other, like being taught how to communicate with each other from a young age, better than we have been taught in the past. Because I feel like so many young people go through this and people that are not young.

The times when I can recall this happening were when I was young and there is that potential that like, you're going to scare someone or you're going to maybe even more nefariously move into territory where it's really you're causing harm to another person in some way. Something should be done about that. I'm glad that people are researching it, but I think it needs to start like from a smaller, more baseline level of like, "Let's communicate better everyone."

Dedeker: Like Jedi academy. That's what I'm hearing. Make sure that we train up our little younglings in the ways of the force that are good and good for the universe.

Jase: That is a perfect segue into our last section of this episode which is our mini Jedi Academy Crash Course on what to do.

Dedeker: He is too old, no. He's too old to begin the training.

Emily: He is.

Dedeker: He is, but maybe some of you out there. Let's do this.

Jase: All right, so any potential new relationship will likely bring some aspects of NRE and limerence with it, especially in the early phases before you've established more clear and direct communication with this person when it's just getting started, or maybe you've just found yourself being interested in someone. The question is, what can we do to help ensure that we follow a healthier path and not get sucked into the dark side of the Force, to not be seduced by the dark side, by the Sith?

Dedeker: As we've said before, limerence thrives on uncertainty, and one of the best things that you can do to deal with uncertainty, is to communicate to the best of your ability. You can do your best to be clear about your feelings and know that if they aren't interested, it's okay. You've potentially saved yourself from a lifetime of suffering. That sounds dramatic.

Emily: Yes, that's truly dramatic.

Dedeker: At the very least, six more months of suffering.

Emily: It could feel like a lifetime.

Dedeker: It could feel like a lifetime's worth of suffering.

Jase: Maybe you're F. Scott Fitzgerald, and then it is like decades of suffering.

Emily: Then you die at the end of the book.

Dedeker: Decades of suffering but then you become a-- Well, not if you're F. Scott Fitzgerald, and you create some successful novels. I'm not going to make a case for being limerent right now. Meditation has been shown to limit the negative effects of limerence, mostly by helping you to be more aware of the thoughts that are going on in your head rather than letting them dictate or control you. Same reason why CBT is also helpful for these kind of things, so yes, meditate like a Jedi.

Jase: I know you're right. It's also to talk to someone about it, preferably, if you're non-monogamous, do not talk to your partner about it. Not because you should keep it from them necessarily, but that you just don't want to-- just as much as possible on this show, we try to encourage people not to rely on your romantic partner to be your only source of support, and processing, and things like that. That's just a lot to ask of anyone person.

The point of this is to talk to people about it, specifically to try to get perspective. That's different from talking to someone just because you want to gush about how amazing this person is, but actually trying to get some perspective, some reflection, and actually listen to their reflection that you get back. Still, you don't have to take everything any friend or partner says to you is like, "Oh, they're 100% right, and I'm 100% wrong," but at least take it in and consider it, listen to it.

Also, continue your self-care, or maybe start some self-care if you haven't been doing that yet. When you're feeling limerence or NRE, it's easy to get so focused on that that you stopped taking care of yourself, you stop doing your other hobbies, or your interests, or your other social engagements, things like that. Along with that, limerence can be increased when people are feeling lonely.

I think, especially coming out of a pandemic, a lot of people might be suffering from some extra loneliness. The study, specifically, found that if your social needs are not being met, then you're more susceptible to falling into limerence. Just keeping that in mind and doing what you can to maintain your social life, and to build social connections, and maintain the social connections you do have, whoever that's with, with your family, with online friends, with real-life friends. Whoever that is.

Emily: Remember that even though these feelings can be very strong and have a profound physical and mental effects, they're really just a natural byproduct of the ways we have evolved to bond, and procreate, and do things like that over the course of human evolution. It doesn't mean that this person that you're super into is necessarily the one, or that there's anything inherently magical about that person or your potential relationship with them.

If it does become something wonderful, then that will be because of your good communication and your mutual compatibility, not because of your profound longing for them, or your suffering, and that longing, or stuff like that. I'm saying it like this because I've been there. Oh my goodness, wow, have I been there.

Dedeker: I was going to say, "Tell that to 22-year-old Dedeker."

Emily: Oh, yes. She is. Are you kidding?

Dedeker: What helped, when I was that age, was when my limerent carrot left town to become a Girls Gone Wild cameraman. That dried up the limerence right away. Not because of him becoming the cameraman, it was more about the leaving town, actually, where he was just gone, and we're not in touch. That was more the thing that helped due to out of sight, out of mind. The Girls Gone Wild cameraman was just the cherry on top.

Jase: Gosh. Actually, just one last thing to add on to the end of this is that, in the research, they talked about essentially three ways to end the limerence, three ways that limerence tends to end. One of them is the consummation, or it's finding out that it's mutual, and that then the limerence transitions into NRE or, oftentimes, actually just dissolves, and you're not that interested in the person anymore which is a bummer.

Dedeker: Woof a doof, that's a whole other ball of wax.

Jase: That's one way. The second way is what Dedeker talked about, which is they call starvation where you basically just starve the limerence of those little breadcrumbs that it was snatching up, that it was feeding off of. Then the third way is finding someone else. I'm not sure if this is the healthiest approach for getting out of limerence, but it's either developing limerence for someone else, or it's just getting into another relationship.

Now again, the studies were very monogamy-focused, and so for them, it's like, "Oh, if you're into someone, obviously, you're going to not be into this other person." I do think there is something to it in having something else that's going to occupy a part of your brain so that that obsessive wanting something to chew on part of your brain, isn't just focused on this one thing. It's focused on someone else. In that way, I don't know, maybe it's possible that non-monogamy might help make someone less susceptible to that quality of limerence. I don't know, I don't know. There's no research on it. We'll have to see.

Emily: Indeed.

Jase: All right, so for our patrons, we're going to do a bonus episode where we're going to talk about the color wheel theory of love. It has a fun name. We're going to talk about what it is, what it's all about. It's something that's kind of fun but not worthy of an entire episode, so we're just going to do a little bonus about it, and that'll be fun. Join us for that if you're interested.

Also, we would love to hear from you. Had you heard of limerence before this? Have you ever experienced it before? We're going to be posting a question on our Instagram. Please, join in there and share with other people about your experience with limerence. The best place to share your thoughts with other listeners about this episode is on this episode's discussion thread in our private Facebook group or Discord chat. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to patreon.com/multiamory.

In addition, you can share with us publicly on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram. Multiamory is created and produced by Dedeker Winston, Emily Matlack, and me, Jase Lindgren. Our episodes are edited by Mauricio Balvanera. Our social media wizard is Will McMillan. Our production assistants are Rachel Schenewerk and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh & Anand from Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.