352 - Safer Sex Part 2
Safer sex practices
Barriers
These are one of the easiest and most effective ways to prevent fluid exchange during sex because they keep each person’s fluids on a different side of the barrier. Different types of barriers used for safer sex:
Condoms
Be careful to select condoms approved by the FDA to prevent both pregnancy and STIs (some novelty flavored or glow in the dark condoms are not).
Both external and internal versions exist:
There is only one FDA approved internal condom in the US: FC2 Internal Condom.
Internal condoms are more expensive but have the advantage of being able to be inserted in the vagina or anus up to 8 hours before sex.
Latex and latex-free condoms exist for those with allergies.
Lambskin also exists but it does not prevent STIs (only pregnancy).
Can be pre-lubricated or not.
DO NOT use oil-based lubricant like baby oil or coconut oil because they will degrade the latex decrease its effectiveness.
Some contain spermicide. Don’t use these. The amount of spermicide is not enough to make a difference in pregnancy risk but can cause irritation, making STI transmission more likely.
Custom made condoms exist!
Dental Dams
A flat sheet of latex (or polyurethane) to be placed on the genitals or anus for oral sex.
Can be purchased online but are cheaper and easy to make one by unrolling a condom, cutting the top and bottom off and then cutting it lengthwise to make a square sheet of rubber.
Gloves
Generally speaking, you cannot get STIs through your hands unless you have some kind of abrasion or skin irritation.
Cover cuts, hangnails, fresh tattoos, eczema, dermatitis, or other skin irritations.
If you touch multiple people’s genitals with gloves or touch your eyes or mouth with them you are negating the protection they offer.
Generally gloves are recommended for any sex that may involve contact with blood, such as sex during a period or any kind of fisting.
Medical
HPV Vaccine (see previous episode):
Update: There is no age limit for HPV vaccine. Talk to your doctor about it.
Get the vaccine even if you have HPV. It protects against around 9 strains and it’s very unlikely that you have more than one or two strains. It also helps prevent reinfection and can decrease outbreaks.
HIV Prophylaxis (see previous episode):
Two kinds, PEP and PrEP.
PrEP stands for pre-exposure and is taken daily to decrease the risk of developing an HIV infection if you are exposed.
PEP is taken within 72 hours after you are potentially exposed.
Others
Sex toys
Be sure to wash your toys before and after use, as there are infections that are not considered STIs that can still be transmitted if toys aren’t clean.
As a rule of thumb, non-porous materials like glass or metal can be used with multiple people as long as you clean and sanitize them. Porous toys should not be shared without a condom, and to improve safety levels further, it’s an option to use a condom on any toy you’re using with multiple people. Here is a guide on cleaning sex toys, and here is a good article on how to pick body-safe materials for your toys.
Lubricant
Lube is part of safer sex. Friction causes irritation, and that increases STI transmission risk.
Be sure it is high quality lubricant, and avoid spermicidal ones for STI prevention.
If you are prone to vaginitis (yeast or bacterial infections) avoid warming, numbing, or flavored lubes.
If you have an allergic reaction, consider using silicone instead of water-based lube (just be careful with silicone toys, as those can interact badly with silicone lube, especially for cheaper toys).
Activity choices
The types of sexual activities that you engage in with others have different safety levels as well. For instance, abstinence is very effective but even that isn’t 100% perfect since some STIs can be transmitted through sharing food, drinks, towels, or other non-sexual contact. Routine testing is still worthwhile in these situations.
Additionally, while lifelong monogamy between two people is theoretically a safer choice, a 2015 study shows that monogamy as it is actually practiced in real life is not effective at preventing STIs. In fact, they suggest people who practice serial monogamy are significantly less likely to get tested and practice safer sex than people who are ethically non-monogamous.
There are lot of different kinds of sex and different types of contact have different levels of risk for various STIs. For example:
Kissing can transmit HSV, CMV, and possibly some others but it is generally unlikely.
Manual sex and mutual masturbation are incredibly unlikely to transmit any STIs.
Using toys is unlikely to transmit any STIs as long as they are cleaned and condoms are used on them if shared.
Oral sex can transmit most STIs if done without a barrier, but has almost zero risk for HIV transmission.
Vaginal or anal sex can transmit any STI, including HIV. If no barriers are used, anal sex sometimes has a higher rate of transmission because the anal tissue is more delicate than vaginal tissue and more likely to tear. Remember to use lots of lube for preventing this!
With oral and vaginal/anal sex, barriers significantly reduce the risks of STI transmission.
When do we talk about sex?
In many situations, earlier is better!
Have the conversation about sexual health before any relevant sexual contact. This can vary depending on your STI status. If you get cold sores, for example, you should mention that before you kiss and make sure everyone understands what that means.
Having a sex conversation too early could feel a bit forward, but in general it’s better to have it as early, as sober, and as clothed as you can.
It’s easy to make decisions that we later regret when our brain chemicals are all excited about an experience with someone, so talking beforehand and coming prepared with whatever equipment you need is key.
Having the STI conversation over text is totally fair game!
In fact, if your meetup is specifically to hook up then having that conversation ahead of time via text is not only ok, it’s actually advised!
How to talk about sex
When talking about sex with a partner or potential partner, there are two main parts:
Disclosing your testing status and learning theirs.
Deciding on the safer sex practices you will use if you have sex together.
Testing, STI status, and disclosure
For disclosing, there are three key pieces of information:
When you were tested.
What you were tested for specifically.
What the results of those tests were (positive or negative).
From an article by Gabrielle Kassel, called “We Put Together Text Templates for That STI Convo” they got some expert advice on some template phrases you can use to start the STI conversation:
Here’s a basic one to start with:
“My last STI screening was [insert date], and I am [positive/negative] for [insert STIs]. How about you?”
If you are positive for an STI some examples could be:
“A doctor found that I carry the HPV virus during a routine gynecological exam. But HPV transmits through direct contact, so if we use a condom or other barrier method during sexual intercourse, the risk of transmission is a lot lower. I haven’t had an infection for [x months/years], and I don’t have an infection now.”
“I have been exposed to HSV in the past, but I do not have any active lesions, so there is no risk of transmission. To make sure it can’t transmit between us, I take antiviral medication to prevent future outbreaks. As long as we use a condom or dental dam, the chance of you acquiring the HSV virus is unlikely. The virus has not been transmitted between me and any of my sexual partners in the past, but I wanted to share this information with you so you are not misled.”
“I have herpes, and I know you might need time to think about what that means. Here are some resources that helped me with my diagnosis and might be helpful to you, too. Please feel free to ask me any questions.”
If you have a treatable STI like gonorrhea or chlamydia, you may want to share what medicine you’re on, when you’re undergoing testing again, and where you are in your treatment plan.
After sharing, give them space and offer resources, ideally giving them some resources that include some advocacy and humanizing information about people with your particular STI status. And then no matter what, do your best not to take their response personally.
“If the other person isn’t willing to talk about it matter-of-factly or gets defensive or tries to tell you some shit about energy healing preventing STIs, DO NOT HAVE SEX WITH THIS PERSON.”
If they don’t believe in germs or are unwilling to educate themselves then they are not a safe person to entrust with your health.
If the other person is uncomfortable, admits to not having been tested, or is scared: Be cautious and decide how much you are willing to guide them:
You could offer to send them some resources (like these episodes).
You could offer to go with them to get tested.
Be willing to wait until they have educated themself and gotten their results.
BE CAUTIOUS, though. From our experience, even if someone is willing to learn, there can be a lot of residual baggage and fear which can make a person more likely to gloss over or leave out important details, or to avoid this conversation with other partners.
If you have multiple sexual partners, it can get more complicated to disclose your level of exposure to different STIs:
In order for others to give consent they need to be informed, but at the same time, STIs do carry a lot of social stigma and a partner may not be comfortable with you sharing their status with people they don’t know.
There isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution to this scenario, but the best case is that everyone is consenting to have enough information shared that others can make informed decisions:
If they aren’t, you may end up in a situation where there just isn’t an ethical way to proceed, in which case, you may need to limit the types of sexual activity you do.
Depending on your situation, you may find a way to disclose that you do occasionally sleep with someone with a certain STI and explain what precautions would be taken in that situation without being specific about who it is. In certain situations this may not feel possible or ethical.
It’s important to start this process early because if you’re trying to rush this conversation an hour before you’re going to have sex with someone and you haven’t had time to check with other partners about their comfort with you disclosing their status then you may be tempted to omit or to expose someone’s private information without their permission.
Options on proceeding
Any sex conversation will be best if the option of not having sex, or at least not having it yet, is a real option on the table, without anyone storming out of the room or whining and guilt-tripping the other person about it.
It is entirely possible to have an amazing relationship that doesn’t ever involve sex. Just keep that option open because it makes the other options even better if you decide on them.
To start out, realize that there is not a right or wrong answer but that it comes down to each individual’s risk tolerance.
Every time we get in a car, have a drink, take drugs, smoke, walk down the street at night, go to a public gathering, or do basically anything, there is some kind of risk involved.
In any situation there are things you can do to mitigate that risk and it all comes down to how to evaluate that level of risk and how comfortable you are with those risks.
When it comes to sexual health, those risks can also affect other people you care about.
Whoever has the lowest risk tolerance gets their way, no questions asked. They are the one who can change their own mind if and when they decide. Do not try to change it for them.
If one partner is only comfortable with mutual masturbation then your option is to do that or just decide you don’t want to be sexual with them at all.
If their decision is based on a lack of information, you can share that and give them resources to learn more but ultimately they have to take the responsibility for it. You don’t want to be the one who convinced them to take a risk they didn’t want to and then the worst happens.
Always remember that not having sex is a perfectly valid option, too! Sometimes we forget that.
We asked our listeners how they handle safer sex practices with their partners to see the range of ways people can answer this question:
A common answer was condoms with everyone except NP:
Though also, some examples of using condoms with NP because they don’t with other partners.
Some also brought up how being fluid bonded in the past had caused some weird possessiveness and controlling behavior so they don’t do it anymore.
Switching between using barriers or not based on partners’ other sexual experiences (i.e. deciding to stop using barriers with another partner, going from COVID-based polyfidelity to dating again, etc.).
Sharing STI results and requesting them from partners (clarifying that important info will be shared with others in the polycule).
Frequency of testing may change based on behavior and number of people in their sexual network.
Some share even more health information like vaccination status, mental health diagnoses and medications, STIs, etc.
Some also just have some basic policies in place like using condoms (external or internal) for penetration but don’t have a specific requirement for sexual health talk or testing (and don’t expect their partners to either).
Generally people who take more risks are also getting tested more often (every 3-4 months).
These last two episodes had a LOT of information to take in, but it’s all vital to being healthy and informed when it comes to sexual wellness.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we’re going on to part two of our two-part series on sexual health. If you haven’t listened to the previous episode 351, please go check that out first before listening to this one because we’re going to be building upon what we covered last time. In that first episode, we covered information about some terminology, talking about a lot of the common STIs and STDs and how we can have better, more informed conversations that help reduce stigma, and keep us and others healthy, both physically and mentally.
In part two, today, we’re exploring a more personal connection to sexual wellness. Discussing the options available for practicing safer sex, which is much more than just condoms or abstinence. We will also look at real-life examples of how to have more effective sex talks with your partners and some tips for making those conversations a little easier.
Dedeker: We have to give the same disclaimer that we gave in our previous episode, which is the three of us are not doctors yet.
Until one of us gets some wild scholarship to go to med school, but the information in these episodes is compiled from many different medical sources. We have worked to put together the most relevant and important information, but we didn’t do original research on this, we’re not qualified to give official medical advice.
Also, our resources about testing availability and drug approval or test approval it’s based on the US may be different in your country. Use this episode as a starting point, but always ask your doctor, do your own research before making any major decisions about your health.
Jace: Yes, so quick recap of last time. Like I mentioned in the intro, we spent some time talking about some terminology things like why we say safer sex instead of safe sex. Talked about avoiding stigmatizing terms like clean to refer to not having a particular STI. Then we also went through and looked at the details how different STIs are transmitted, how dangerous different ones are, or what the treatments are, which ones are curable or treatable, all that sort of stuff.
Again, please go back, check that episode out, because something that we really want to come across from these two episodes is we want all of you to be able to listen to this and come away with lower anxiety than you came in. This is a topic that for a lot of people raises anxiety immediately.
You even say some of the keywords and people go a little, they get anxious. I know I certainly do, but something we’ve really been trying to do with these episodes is just be matter of fact about it. In the same way that we’re matter of fact, when we talk about catching the flu or a cold or having eczema, or lice. Any number of other things that are not so stigmatized and don’t cause as much anxiety even though they are things that we would like to avoid and try to have as little as possible that it’s not something that causes the same amount of anxiety.
That’s really what we want you to internalize today and in last week’s episode with all of this.
Emily: We want to start out by talking about safer sex practices. I think when many people think about trying to make their sex safer, the low-hanging fruit is a condom or a barrier. There’s a lot of barriers so let’s talk about those barriers. They help--
Dedeker: Putting barriers on your low-hanging fruit.
Emily: Yes. Oh, that was good. Very good.
Yes, so barriers helped prevent STIs by stopping bodily fluids from entering the other person’s body. Here are some common types. The first one is condoms. We all know what condoms are, you probably have put one on a banana or other things maybe in your life.
Dedeker: I never got the banana experience.
Emily: Oh, that’s too bad.
Jase: I never did either.
Dedeker: First I started out by going to private Christian school, so of course, no bananas allowed-
Emily: Yes, no.
Dedeker: -for sure, but then I went to public high school and even in my public high school, no bananas allowed. Didn’t know free condoms.
Emily: I think I got a banana once. I don’t know about free condoms that’s pushing it a bit far, but--
Dedeker: Not till college. Free condoms are college.
Emily: College, please give them all away, but yes.
Dedeker: All the bananas you can eat in college.
Emily: Indeed. Something to think about with condoms is that you need to be careful to select condoms that are approved by the FDA to prevent both pregnancy and STIs because there are some kind of novelty flavored or glow in the dark condoms out there that are not necessarily FDA approved for both of those things.
There are internal and external versions of condoms. There is only one FDA approved internal condom in the US, which is the FC2 internal condom. Internal condoms are more expensive, but they have the advantage of being able to be inserted into the vagina or anus, up to eight hours before sex. I think of those things for when you’re on your period. Is that the Flexi?
Dedeker: Yes, the Flex is one of them, like a disc, a menstrual disc, I think is the generic term.
Jase: You’re right.
Dedeker: Just meant for menstruation not for--
Emily: Not for sex.
Jase: Yes, these are not the same.
Dedeker: Not the same.
Emily: It remind .
Dedeker: Yes, kind of like that.
Jase: It is an interesting thing that people will also refer to them sometimes as male condoms and female condoms, although, again, that terminology is just incorrect. Because they’re not specific to a gender they’re specific to, are they put on externally or internally so that’s the official names of them. I do think that point that you can insert it up to eight hours beforehand is really interesting. If you are someone who has that thing of like, “Oh, I hate having to ruin the flow or whatever to put on a condom.” Hey, maybe this is worth giving a try.
Emily: There you go. Also, there are latex and latex-free condoms available. A lot of people out there might have a latex allergy. That’s something to be aware of and look for. Then sadly, for me, but I know that other people out there who can’t do any type of latexy or plasticy condoms also, there are lambskin condoms out there, but we do not recommend them, A, because they’re not vegan, and B, because they don’t prevent STIs. They do prevent pregnancy, but there’s latex-free condoms out there so use that if you can’t do latex. Don’t use this porous weird thing that lambskin weird thing that lambskin is.
Jase: Yes, there’s really no reason to use lambskin.
Dedeker: They are good enough for the Elizabethans, but we’ve evolved past them.
Emily: Yes, we certainly have.
Jase: You realize this, in case you didn’t, condoms can be pre-lubricated or not. One thing to keep in mind with condoms is that both water-based lubes and silicone lubes are totally fine to use with condoms, but do not use any oil-based lubricant. That includes things like baby oil, or coconut oil, which I know is a pretty common thing for people to use. Don’t use it with condoms, because it degrades it, it will make it fall apart, essentially, so don’t do that.
One of the things to be on the lookout with condoms is that there are some that are still made with spermicidal lube. You can also buy spermicidal lube. Lube with a chemical in it that kills sperm. Generally, though, don’t use that. Spermicide has been shown in a lot of research to be irritating to the skin, specifically the skin in the vagina. It can then make someone more susceptible to STIs or just infections and UTIs and stuff like that because it’s irritating.
Generally speaking with the condom is going to do the job don’t add the spermicide. Because on top of that the amount of spermicide that’s in those condoms that are lubricated with spermicide is not even enough to do anything. Just don’t do it.
Emily: It’s a marketing ploy right there.
Jase: Yes, exactly.
Emily: That’s all that is.
Dedeker: Just one last thing about condoms. We’ll get into this a little bit later, but some of the biggest resistance that I’ve seen from people wanting to use barriers is just not liking the barriers, not feeling like sex is. It opens up a whole can of worms. It can be everything from it’s harder for me to perform sexually or it’s harder for me to have an orgasm. I’m saying this regardless of what genitalia you may have, to all the way up to using a condom makes the relationship feel less special or makes it feel like there’s less trust.
We could do whole episodes diving into the psychology of that, but that’s the biggest reason that I see for people pushing back against using condoms. If you’re someone who just really doesn’t like condoms or really struggles with condoms, and if you’re someone who wears a condom externally, there are companies out there that make custom-sized, custom-made condoms-
Emily: That’s awesome.
Dedeker: -for you specifically. Because I’ve never been a person with a penis or who wears a condom externally, but what I have gleaned from my nearby penis havers is that finding the right fit is key for a condom to still create an enjoyable sexual experience.
We encourage people to go, experiment, try out many, many different brands, many, many different sizes. If you’re still having a hard time, there are companies that make custom-made condoms, specifically, myonecondoms.com. That’s just one of them that’s come up a lot where they literally have 60 different sizes based on a combination of length and girth and fit and all those things.
Emily: I thought that maybe they would send you-- When you have to get a retainer fitted, I’ve done this recently, but you have to stick your teeth in the thing in the mold.
Dedeker: An impression?
Emily: Yes, an impression, exactly. I thought that perhaps they would send you something along those lines.
Dedeker: In fact, company that does the Clone-A-Willy stuff where you can make a molded dildo, if they would just do a cross-promotion where they’ll also make you some custom-fitted condoms, I feel like that’s a billion-dollar idea. Somebody get them on the phone right now.
Emily: Yes. Maybe we need to be the ones to make that happen. Very cool.
Jase: Yes, but also, besides getting custom-made ones, like Dedeker said, if you go to an actual sex shop, a lot of times, they’ll have all the bins of condoms that you can mix and match, build a set. That’s what I did is I just went and literally one or two of every single kind and just did science. It was fun science, so win-win.
The next type of barrier I want to talk about are dental dams. For those of you who don’t know, I feel like most of you aren’t familiar with what this is, it’s basically just a flat sheet of latex or polyurethane, if it’s latex-free, that is placed over the genitals or over the anus, generally for oral sex. It’s for covering something that’s not shaped so a condom can fit over it. Let’s put it that way.
You can buy these online. They’re a little bit more expensive than buying condoms because they’re a specialty item, I guess. However, having some on hand could be useful, but if you don’t, the other way is that you can just take a condom, and you cut off the tip, and you cut off the ring part on the other end and do a slit all the way down the middle, and then it just folds out into a flat sheet. You can use it that way.
Emily: They’re small though. Right? I don’t know. Maybe it’s not. Now I want to go find a condom.
Dedeker: You want to do some science?
Emily: Exactly.
Dedeker: You can do the same with a latex glove as well, or if you’re allergic to latex, again, like a non-latex glove or whatever. You can do the same custom job.
Jase: Right. One of the advantages to buying the pre-made ones, which you can order online, is that they’re packaged up so that you don’t have to like, “Okay, hang on. Stop. Let’s get to do a little arts and crafts project here right in the middle of things.” Because you don’t want to do that in advance and just have it sitting out. That’s not really sanitary either. Actually, having some on hand is really useful thing.
Dedeker: Speaking of gloves, gloves are also a good thing to have on hand. Generally speaking, you can’t necessarily get STIs through your hands unless you have some kind of abrasion or skin irritation or an open wound. If you do, if you have a cut, a hangnail, a fresh tattoo, or dermatitis, or some other skin irritation, it’s really good to cover that up.
If you’re in a situation where you’re touching multiple people’s genitals either with your hands or with gloves on and then touch your eyes or your mouth, then you’re negating the protection that they offer. I’ve seen this recently, also, I think with COVID when especially a lot of people were going out in public with rubber gloves to help protect themselves, but when you’re still just using the glove and touching everything else on your body, you’re doing the same exact thing. The gloves aren’t really protecting you that much.
Generally, gloves are recommended for any kind of sex that may involve contact with blood, such as sex during a menstrual period, any kind of fisting, or if you’re specifically getting into any kind of kink that involves blood. That’s also really important to use gloves. It can also be fun, kind of doctory role play as well. It offers a different texture.
Emily: Oh, snap.
Dedeker: Yes, exactly. You can really, really have some fun with it. A last note about barriers in general, whether we’re talking about gloves or dental dams or condoms. The whole point is about keeping fluids separate. They’re keeping these fluids on separate sides of the barrier. That’s why we never want to reuse a barrier or using the same barrier with two different partners.
I would think that this would be apparent, but I’ve definitely been in groups, sex situations where people did not realize that, thought that, “Okay, I have a condom on so I can just use it with multiple partners, and then that’s fine.” It is not fine. Same thing if you’re using barriers on a sex toy, for instance, that if you’re going to use that sex toy with multiple people, then you want to use a different condom for each time.
Emily: Let’s continue talking about safer sex practices and move over to the medical side of things. We talked about this a bit last time, but just to reiterate, you can get the HPV vaccine. You can learn more about that from our previous episode, but we have an update on this, when we talked about it last time that there is now no age limit for the HPV vaccine.
You can talk to your doctor about it. I believe even we’ve had some patrons talk about this, that they discussed it with their doctor, that they had multiple partners, and therefore, were able to get the HPV vaccine, maybe even free of charge. I don’t know. I had to pay a bunch of money for it when I got mine because back then, when I was 24 or 26 or something, they were like, “You’re too old,” so whatever.
Dedeker: It depends on where you’re at and then that whole medical system of your localities. So look into that.
Emily: Yes. This is something as well, get the vaccine, even if you have HPV. This is exactly why I got the vaccine is because I did have HPV at the time. They were like, “Let’s not have that happen again.” I got the vaccine. It does protect against around nine strains of HPV. It’s very unlikely that you have more than one or two strains. It also helps prevent reinfection, and it can decrease outbreaks. All of those things are a huge major factor in why you might want to get it.
Jase: Just a note about the HPV vaccine is that there is technically no age limit to how old you can be to get it, but they do say that there’s this age limit of whatever it is, 26 or something, then this other age limit of 45, but we’ve talked to people who gotten it in their 50s as well. There isn’t actually a limit, but it can be more difficult to convince your doctor to give it to you the older you get.
Maybe even your doctor will give it, but the pharmacy will resist it. Give it a try though. See if you can do some research on your own, talk to your doctor about it because, hey, if you’re having sex, this is a really useful thing and an easy thing, relatively speaking, right?
Emily: Yes. Mine, I believe, was three doses of the vaccine. Do you remember, Dedeker?
Dedeker: I think mine was two doses if I recall.
Jase: I think it’s two.
Emily: It’s two? Okay. Maybe it was just two, yes, but I know it was more than once. The other thing to discuss on the medical side are the HIV prophylaxis. We discussed this more last time, but it’s PEP and PrEP. PrEP stands for pre-exposure and it’s taken daily to decrease the risk of developing an HIV infection if you are exposed. Then PEP is taken within 72 hours after you are potentially exposed. Talk to your doctor about these things if you are potentially in a high-risk category. Want to help yourself out in that way. Go talk to your doctor.
Jase: Some other little pieces of information about this. One is about sex toys. We’ve talked about those just briefly. Dedeker mentioned using condoms on them and changing those if they’re being used for multiple people. A few things to think about, one is, first of all, washing your toys after you use them, regardless of what kind of toy it is, washing it. Also, if it’s been sitting for a while, wash it before using it again.
Emily: Thank you for your reminder. I will go do that after this.
Dedeker: Exactly. Shuffles through closet full of dust sex toys?
Jase: Part of the reason for that is that there are other infections besides STIs that you can get from toys that aren’t clean. Just like other kinds of bacteria or fungus or viruses or any of those sorts of things. It’s happened to me and it’s a real bummer, just don’t do it, and also with porous toys, like squishy-
Emily: Silicon?
Jase: -soft silicone toys, the soft ones not the hard ones, but the soft ones. Generally, you should only keep those like six months to a year and then you got to-
Emily: Really?
Jase: -toss them Out.
Emily: Why?
Jase: Because they just degrades over time and can harbor bacteria and stuff like that.
Emily: I got to say even the Hitachi Magic Wand degrades over a number of years of regular use.
Dedeker: You can replace the spongy bit on it though.
Emily: That’s true, yes, even the robust ones you got to really replace them, just throw it.
Dedeker: You should.
Jase: On that note, an important distinction to make with sex toys is ones that are porous and ones that are non-porous. What that means is something non-porous would be a material like glass or metal. Those as long as you’re actually washing them and sanitizing them, you can use that same toy without a barrier on it with multiple people because it’s not porous. It’s not going to absorb anything from that person.
Just like a doctor sterilizes their scalpel that’s metal, the same principle can apply with your sex toys. If it’s anything that’s porous, that’s like at all of a soft or spongy thing that one should never be used with more than one person unless you’re putting a condom or some barrier over it, just something to keep in mind.
Dedeker: Yes. Let’s talk about lube, which we do talk about a lot-
Emily: Oh, our favorite
Dedeker: When we’re talking about our sponsorship for this show, but this is going to be a non-sponsored segment right here, an allegedly neutral segment about lube.
Emily: We still have a favorite lube, but yes.
Dedeker: We do, that’s not a secret but for the purposes of this, we’re going to enter some neutral territory here. Again, lube is not just about making sex, feel better. It really is a part of safer sex because of the fact that when you have more friction that causes irritation and that can increase the risk of STI transmission.
Jase: Or even UTIs.
Dedeker: UTIs also, yes, don’t even get me started. Again, make sure it’s a high-quality lube, again avoid spermicidal lubricants. If you’re prone to infections like vaginitis, bacterial infections, yeast infections, avoid any lube that has that warming, numbing, flavored-
Emily: There’s numbing lube?
Dedeker: -gimmicky lube. Yes there’s numbing lube for people it’s usually marketed to men who think that like they have an orgasm too quickly.
Emily: Got it.
Dedeker: Therefore, the numbing is meant to slow down your roll, allegedly.
Emily: An alleged slowing of the roll.
Jase: I got a variety pack of condoms once, and one of the varieties in it was a numbing kind.
Emily: Did you try it?
Jase: I tried it and just instantly couldn’t feel anything.
Emily: Really, holly shit.
Dedeker: Too much numbing.
Jase: Abort, abort, this isn’t going to happen.
Emily: Wow.
Dedeker: Personally, I hate gimmicky lube. Every single time I’ve tried the gimmicky lube, I’m just like, “Oh, this is not good.” Especially the warming stuff, I’m just like, “Ah,” but that’s my personal preference. I tend to avoid that stuff. If you’re someone who’s prone to having allergic reactions, then consider using a silicone-based lube rather than a water-based lube.
Again, if you’re using silicone-based lube, be careful with your silicone toys. Sometimes those can interact badly with silicone lube, not always. Whenever I’m using a silicone lube and I have a silicone toy, especially if it’s a high-quality silicone toy, then I will try to do a spot test, usually on the base of the toy. Some part that’s not necessarily going to be used or inserted into my body just to see how it interacts with the silicone lube.
I haven’t had any toys like melt on me. Usually, my experience with using both a high-quality silicone lube and a high-quality silicone toy is usually the worst thing that happens is sometimes the silicon lube can leave like a film that’s hard to clean off. That’s been my experience.
Emily: Fascinating. Wow. Sorry, I’m just thinking about melting toys from lube. Let’s try that.
Dedeker: Have you ever had that?
Emily: No.
Dedeker: I’ve had that happen using like putting cheap silicone toys together in a bag and where they touched each other-
Emily: Wow. Really?
Dedeker: -it melted. Yes.
Emily: No.
Dedeker: They were both cheap, not good silicone toys, just probably not good to put in my body anyway.
Jase: Right, good clue right there.
Emily: A lot of the nicer ones come with their own individual bags, which I really like. You don’t have to throw them all together.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: All right. Let’s talk about activity choices, shall we? If you have ever been in a sex ed class, probably you have heard the refrain that “Abstinence is the only way to prevent pregnancy and STIs and blah, blah, blah.” Yes, it is very effective but even that isn’t 100% perfect. Since some STIs can be transmitted through things like sharing food, drinks, towels, other nonsexual contact. Testing is still worthwhile. It still was an important time.
Jase: This happened to me actually.
Emily: Really?
Jase: I got an STI at one point. It was a curable one, but I got it during a time when I wasn’t having any sex.
Emily: People were like, “What the hell?”
Jase: I’m well outside of a range of exposure. The doctor was like, “Yes, it can happen.” It was when I was in college, it can happen at the gym or different things. It’s just a contagion, that as long as it touches your skin, you can get an infection. Stuff like that happens. I guess, abstinence is not a 100% perfect, even in that case.
Dedeker: You can also pick up something like HSV through birth, through someone giving birth to you. Or through someone has a cold sore and they still kiss the baby. That can happen to even if you’re totally abstinent.
Emily: Totally. While lifelong monogamy between two people is theoretically a safer choice. There is a 2015 study that is called Reexamining the Effectiveness of Monogamy as an STI Preventative Strategy, it shows that monogamy, as it is actually practiced in real life is not effective at preventing STIs. In fact, they suggest that people who practice serial monogamy are significantly less likely to get tested in practice safer sex than people who are ethically non-monogamous. I think most of the non-monogamous folk out there, know this to be true.
Dedeker: Anecdotally I know from my own personal experience, in my serial monogamy days, very little testing. Very little discussion of safer sex about-
Emily: It wasn’t so many you thought about.
Dedeker: -sexual history. Yes, it was kind of we’re all floating along the same assumption that-
Emily: Everyone’s fine.
Dedeker: -everyone’s good. Everyone’s fine.
Emily: Nope.
Dedeker: Everyone’s, quote unquote, like a good person without STIs.
Jase: Yes. I feel it’s really the fault of trying to sell monogamy as some safer way to have sex, because it’s just like, we don’t do lifelong monogamy. I don’t even know if I could think of a single person who’s only ever had sex with one person their whole life. Even if they’re a totally monogamous person who’s been married for 50 years or whatever. At some point they’ve had sex with someone else.
Dedeker: Those people do exist.
Jase: It’s very rare.
Emily: I can think of someone, but yes.
Jase: Another thing to think about in terms of safer sex choices is that it’s not just about what barriers you’re using, what you’re doing with your toys, things like that. It’s also just what kinds of sexual activities are you doing? Which ones are you choosing to do with different partners or with anyone at all? Some things to think about with this is just that sex is bigger than just a penis going in a vagina.
Which I think for a lot of people, and we’ve talked about this before on the show, there’s this thing that is sex and everything else is like some other kind of thing, but it’s all sex and it’s all great, and it’s all tons of fun. Also realizing what your other options are, is another really good way of practicing, safer for sex.
This actually came up on an episode of The Magicians in season five where I don’t think this is too much of a spoiler for those of you who are not caught up. One of the characters has Lycanthropy, he’s a Werewolf and in the show that’s transmitted as an STI.
Emily: I forgot about that.
Jase: He’s talking with this woman that he’s in love with and is lamenting the fact that they can’t have sex, with anyone. She’s like, “Honey, there are so many other ways to have sex, and really PIV is not even in my top 10.”
Emily: Wow.
Jase: That’s great.
Emily: That’s because she’s awesome.
Jase: She is awesome. King Margo is awesome.
Emily: Hell, yes.
Jase: Some examples of this is kissing. Kissing can transmit HSV, CMV, possibly some others, but it’s generally unlikely. It’s not a super common thing, again, be mindful of cold sores and things like that, but kissing is great. Manual sex, so mutual masturbation or using your hands on each other is incredibly unlikely to transmit any STIs. Again, as long as you’re washing your hands between doing that with different people or between touching yourself and the other person or switching out gloves or things like that.
Using toys is also very unlikely to transmit any STIs, as long as you’re cleaning them, using condoms like we talked about before. Oral sex can transmit most STIs if done without a barrier, but at least with HIV has essentially zero risk or a very, very low risk of HIV with oral sex, but other things can be transmitted.
Vaginal, anal sex can transmit any of the STIs that we’ve talked about, including HIV. With oral and vaginal, anal sex, really with any of these barriers, significantly reduce the risk even farther. Because like Dedeker pointed out, you’re keeping the fluids from each person on separate sides of the barrier. That’s the whole point.
Dedeker: I want to drive home. There’s something that Dan Savage said a long time ago, but he basically pointed out that queer people are very used to negotiating sexual activities together. How do we want to have a good experience together? What are you into? What are you not into? Straight people or people who have straight sex are less used to having that conversation, because we’re writing that wave of hundreds of years of assumptions about what sex is, and assuming that it follows a particular script, it has to involve PIV, it has to involve this kind of orgasm at that kind of time.
I find myself, especially in my work with clients often really encouraging people in the early stages of relationship when they’re figuring out STI status and sexual health, that you have so many options. It doesn’t have to follow like the sex escalator, I suppose, if I was going to-
Jase: Interesting.
Emily: Sexcalator.
Jase: The sexcalator.
Dedeker: The sexcalator, is also a thing, that we follow the same escalating steps to the same conclusion. There’s no getting off that escalator. There’s no going backwards. There’s no choosing a different escalator. There’s no choosing to check the elevator or the stairs, if you want. Really you can.
Emily: The selevator.
Dedeker: If you’re someone who has straight sex and you don’t want to hop into PIV quite yet, or maybe you’re in a situation where you’re encountering a new STI status and you’re not even entirely sure, but you know that you do want to sexually engage with this person. There’s so many options to explore your sexual chemistry together, consensually and reducing your risk at the same time. That doesn’t involve, we have to do all these same steps that are expected of me. I just feel like that’s important to drive home.
Jase: Awesome. We’re going to go on to talk about, now that we have a sense of what some of these options are, how do we have this conversation? What are ways that we can make this conversation easier, less stressful, smoother, things like that? Before we go onto that, we’re going to take a quick break to talk about some of our sponsors for this show.
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Dedeker: We’re back, and we’re jumping straight in with hot button topic, which is, when do we talk about all these things? It’s one thing to be full of the knowledge and the wisdom and the intent to be a sexual superhero of wellness and health.
Emily: I wonder what that costume would look like.
Dedeker: Oh, I have some ideas. When the rubber hits the road, it can be a little challenging. Even for myself, even for the three of us, in real world situations, when it actually comes to, “Okay, now I actually need a conversation about this.” I know I still get a little bit of that “Oh gosh, is this the right time? Am I bringing this up in the right way? What if I get rejected? What if this is super awkward?” I 100% still go through that.
General rule of thumb is to start having these conversations before any relevant sexual contact. That timing is going to vary based on your STI status, your partner’s STI status. For example, if you know that you regularly get cold sores, it might be a good thing to mention that before you kiss someone and make sure that you both understand what that means. If you have genital herpes, then mentioning that before any genital contact.
Again, we really encourage people to give yourself the gift of talking about this earlier, rather than waiting until the last minute. Don’t wait until you’re taking clothes off. Don’t wait until sex is actually on the table and about to happen.
I know and this is just my personal experience, and this is going to sound a little weird. Some of my best memories early on in my relationships or early on in dating relationships have been when people have been proactive about, “Hey, let’s talk about sexual health long before we’re actually on the road to having sex.” Because for me, that makes me feel very safe and feel like, “Oh, this is maybe a trustworthy person that we’re able to talk about these things openly. They’re asking questions. I’m able to share, honestly. I can ask them questions.”
That goes through both relationships in my personal history that went on to be long-term relationships and relationships that didn’t really go anywhere. I don’t know, for me, there’s something about that of someone who is comfortable enough to bring that up when we’re sitting at the sushi bar. I’m totes into it, rather than just waiting and treating it like this very shameful thing.
I know it can feel awkward and it can feel a little bit intimidating, but I just want to encourage people that being that proactive person who brings up that topic, is going to win you more points than lose you points in the end. It can be a great jumping off point, especially then to talk about even sexier things if you want, that starting with sexual health can also lead to just really, really good conversation as you’re getting to know a new sexual partner or potentially sexual partner.
Emily: I will say maybe having a conversation super early, I don’t know, between each other on your Tinder messaging or something. Can you message on Tinder? I don’t know.
Dedeker: Yes.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: Yes, you can. That’s all point. Maybe that’s a little early and that might be a little awkward or forward.
Jase: Unless the whole point of this connection is to meet to have sex.
Emily: That’s true.
Jase: Then absolutely have that conversation beforehand on there. It just varies by situation.
Emily: That’s absolutely true. I do think in general, it is better to have it as early and as sober and as clothed as you possibly can. It is easy to make decisions that we later regret when our brain chemicals are all going haywire, getting super excited about a new experience with someone, and perhaps you might make decisions that you wish that you didn’t when those brain chemicals have subsided. It is a good idea to just talk about things beforehand and come prepared with whatever equipment you need. That’s super key as well.
Then also having the STI conversation over text is maybe a good option. That might be fair game. In fact, if your meetup is specifically to just hook up, like Jase just said, then having that conversation ahead of time via text is not only okay, but it’s actually advised. That also might make it a little bit less awkward. It’s like, “Oh, we don’t have to stare at each other in the face while we’re saying these things, we’re doing it over the phone.” Then we’re prepared beforehand as well.
Jase: Absolutely. There’s actually a lot of good reasons in favor of having that conversation over text, because it gives both of you the opportunity to go look something up real quick. If you’re unfamiliar with a term or you don’t actually know some facts about that, or some risks about that, it gives you time to share things where you’re not having to very carefully watch your reactions.
If the other person or you react like, “Oh gosh,” you can take a moment to absorb that, do a little bit of research and respond more appropriately. Since this was brought up in researching this, I actually think text conversations might be the preferred way to do it. I actually think that’s a great way to have that conversation.
Emily: Interesting.
Jase: I’ll be curious to hear what other people have to say about that in the episode discussion. Next is, how do we talk about sex? We’ve talked about when to talk about it, and basically just as early and sober and clothed as possible. It’s going to be so much better.
The good sex conversations that I’ve had have been earlier when we’re having dinner or something like Dedeker mentioned, the ones that have been a little awkward are the ones right before we’re about to do stuff. Just as early as possible is always going to be better, while being appropriate. It’s not like, “Hey, I bumped into you at the grocery store. Let’s talk about sexual health.” Unless you’re going home to, you know it’s always possible. It’s always possible.
Emily: Anything is possible.
Jase: How to talk about sex, baby? When talking about sex, there’s basically two important parts to talking to a potential partner or a partner about having sex. The first part is, disclosing your testing status and learning about theirs. Then the second part is actually decided on the safer sex practices that you will use if you have sex together or when you have sex together.
We’re going to talk about the first part of that first, so testing, status, and disclosure. There’s basically three pieces of information, and this is a little bit of a recap from last week. Basically, the information that’s important is when you were tested, what you were tested for, and then what the results of those tests were. Again, to call back to last week, the point of that is not to say, “I was tested and I’m negative,” because there is no definitive test that says you're negative for everything. That just doesn't exist. That's not possible to test. It's what specifically were you tested for? When was it and what were the results? That's the best way to share that, and then to expect that from the other person. For actually doing that, though, how do we do this? This comes from an article by Gabrielle Kassel, called We Put Together Text Templates for That STI Convo. Even made them as text templates, right? Again, really encouraging using text.
Emily: How lovely.
Jase: They got some expert advice on some template phrases that you can use to start STI conversation, whether that's in person or via text, or whatever. The basic one to start with, and they're all based around this one thing is just super simple. My last STI screening was insert date here, and I am positive or negative for these STIs. How about you? I know it sounds like maybe too simple but--
Emily: Simplicity is good sometimes.
Jase: That's actually great especially if you have a sense that the other person gets it, they understand about sexual health, then it can be that simple. It doesn't need a lot of preambles. It's like, "Hey, my last STI screening was a month ago and I was tested for the normal four but also had them do HSV-2 because I already know that I have HSV-1. Test for HSV-2 is negative and I was negative for all those other ones, for HIV, chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis. Could be something like that. Then, "Hey, what about you? When were you last tested?" Can work great.
Emily: All right. If you're positive for an STI, here's an example of something that you can say and this is-- I feel like I've had this conversation before. A doctor found that I carry the HPV virus during a routine gynecological exam, but HPV transmits through direct contact. If we use a condom or other barrier methods during sexual intercourse, the risk of transmission is a lot lower. I haven't had an infection for however many months or years, and I don't have an infection now. That's something that you could say, for instance, with a new partner.
Dedeker: Take that template and make it your own also. It doesn't have to be textbook.
Emily: It's completely copy and paste.
Jase: Again, it's just a starting point to realize it can be pretty straightforward. Here's another example. I've been exposed to HSV in the past, but I don't have any active lesions. There's very little risk of transmission. To make sure it can't transmit between us, I take antiviral medication to prevent future outbreaks. As long as we use a condom or a dental dam, the chance of you acquiring HSV is extremely unlikely. The virus hasn't been transmitted between me and any of my sexual partners in the past, but I want to share this information so that you're not misled.
Dedeker: Or it could be something like just so you know, I have herpes, I have HSV-2, I know that you might need some time to think about that. Here's some resources that helped me when I got my diagnosis. It may be helpful to you too. Please feel free to ask me any questions that you have. Or if you have a treatable STI something like gonorrhea or chlamydia, then we recommend sharing what medicine you're on, when you're planning on getting tested, again, where you are in your treatment plan.
Emily: Then after sharing, give them space and offer resources, just like Dedeker said. Maybe give them some resources that include some advocacy, and humanizing information about people with your particular STI status. Then you know what, no matter what, do your best not to take the response personally, which I know is challenging, but at the end of the day, you know for yourself like I'm not a bad person because I have this. We, overall as a society need to reduce stigma around this in general. If this person isn't quite where I am in that way, then hopefully someday they'll get there.
Jase: I remember the first time that someone shared with me that they had HSV. I didn't know any of this stuff. I didn't know a lot about it. She gave me a little bit of an explanation. She's like, "You can look into it. Take your time, figure out what that means for you. Here's some stuff that we could do today instead. Here's some activities that are safer that we could do, and then think about that and learn about it and we can talk about it."
I wish you had actually given me some resources to maybe the next day or something sent me some of those but I will say in that case, it took me a while to process all of that, but several months later, I had learned a lot more after that. What I'm trying to say here is that even if it's the other person may be receives it well, but it's like, "I'm just not sure," it's possible that in the fullness of time, they will have a better understanding about it and get educated even if it doesn't happen right away when you want them to.
Emily: On the flip side of that, though, if the other person really isn't willing to talk about it matter of factly, or get super defensive, or tries to tell you some shit about energy healing practices or something regarding this STI, just don't have sex with this person. It's not worth it. Don't do it. There's no reason. If they don't believe in germs, or they're unwilling to educate themselves, then they're not a safe person to entrust your health with really. Also, if the other person is uncomfortable, and admits to not having been tested or is scared by all of this, just be cautious and decide how much you're willing to guide them because that's a lot of emotional labor as well.
Perhaps that's not something that you need to do. You don't need to be there. We always say like poly apprentice, like safer sex apprentice or HSV apprentice or whatever. Things that you could do in this situation, you could offer to send them some resources like these episodes, for example. Or there's a lot of resources out there discussing really what it is that it's living with an STI like HSV, or HPV, or HIV, stuff like that, and the treatable and preventable ones as well. There's a lot of resources out there.
Jase: Even just giving them that understanding of testing at all. Maybe you're saying, "I got tested for these things, and I was negative for those. I got tested a month ago, and they're real dodgy or weird, and they're not anti because that person just said no and leave." If they're like, "Oh, just like I don't know. I'm nervous," proceed at your own risk. Give them those resources to just normalize it but be aware that there's some weirdness there.
Emily: You could offer to go with them to get tested if they're nervous about getting a blood test or something, which I always say it. Or if they're just nervous about the potential outcome, and maybe they just need a support system, then you could offer to go with them when they get tested. You should be willing to wait until they have educated themselves and gotten their results. I think for your safety as well, for both of you just wait until they've gotten the results to really know the bigger picture, the whole picture of what you're dealing with in terms of their health. Be cautious.
From our experience, even if someone's willing to learn, there can be a lot of this residual baggage and fear, which can make a person more likely to gloss over or leave out important details or to avoid this conversation with other partners, especially if those partners aren't as persistent or as knowledgeable as you are. They may just gloss over it and you don't really know what's happening ever with anyone else. Just be cautious and understand that with all of these things, you are assessing your own risk as well.
Dedeker: In your own energy levels. I think that just anytime you're considering developing a relationship with somebody at any level of enjoyment or entanglement, it's just figuring out what's actually worth my time. What actually counts is still caring for myself. For some people, it may be worth it to do more education for other people, maybe not. Just thinking about that.
Jase: Then if you have multiple sexual partners, it can get a little more complicated to disclose your level of exposure to different STIs. This is still important to do because it gives others the chance to give their informed consent. They need to be informed in order to fully consent. However, at the same time, STIs do carry a lot of social stigma still that we're all working to fight, but it is still there. A partner of yours may not be comfortable with you sharing their status with people they don't know who might be your other partners.
This is a big topic. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution for this. The best-case scenario is that everyone is consenting to have enough information shared that others can make informed decisions. If some people in your network of people that you're having sex with are not comfortable with you sharing that information with others, you may end up in a situation where there just isn't an ethical way to proceed, unfortunately. In that case, you may just need to limit the types of sexual activity that you do more generally.
Depending on your situation, you might also find a way to disclose that you do occasionally sleep with someone with a certain STI diagnosis and explain what precautions you take when that situation comes up without being specific about who it is. There's one possibility that some people do if you have a very small network of people, that doesn't work because it’s obvious who it might be. This is something that you do need to talk about and negotiate that with everyone so that the option of just not saying something and not making someone informed, that's not an okay option.
You need to have some kind of conversation to work this out one way or another. It's important to start this process early because if you're trying to rush this conversation an hour before you're going to have sex with someone and you haven't had time to check with your other partner about their comfort level with disclosing their status to someone else, then it can be tempting to just omit it or to expose someone's private information without their permission. Really think ahead on this, start this process of having these conversations early.
Dedeker: Let's talk about deciding how to proceed. You’ve had the conversation, you've exchanged information, and then comes the decision-making process. Sometimes that's going to be an easy decision and sometimes it's not. Sometimes you're going to be in a situation where like, "Oh, I'm really comfortable and knowledgeable about my own STI status, about the new information. I know-how about this potential sexual partner, I feel good about that."
Or you may be in a situation where like, "Oh wow, I've never had to navigate this particular type of situation." This comes up a lot in non-monogamy where someone maybe like, "Okay, I have experience navigating it when I have a direct sexual partner who has a particular STI status but I've never experienced when someone with an STI is two or three degrees removed. How do I navigate that how to make decisions about how I'm supposed to proceed?" We can't say it enough.
Any conversation about sex is going to be best if the option of not having sex or at least not having sex yet is actually a real option on the table. If you're in a situation where it feels like we both don't have an option but to have sex right now and therefore any conversation that doesn't result in us being able to have sex is going to be a bad conversation, someone's going to storm out of the room, someone's going to whine, someone's going to guilt-trip the other person, not a good situation.
Just remember it's entirely possible to have an amazing date, an amazing couple of dates, or an amazing entire relationship that doesn't ever involve particular types of sex or sex at all. Just keep that option open because it makes the other options even better if you do decide on them. Again, we have to realize that there's not a direct right or wrong answer here, sometimes. It all comes down to each individual's risk tolerance. Risk is something that we do every single day.
Every time you get in a car, every time you take a drink, every time you take drugs, smoke, walk down the street at night, go to a public gathering, do basically anything, there's some kind of risk involved that includes sex. In any situation, there are things that you can do to mitigate that risk. It all comes down to evaluating what is the level of risk, how comfortable am I with those risks? Are there other people involved who also have their own individual risk tolerances and do I need to be considerate of that?
Emily: Between you and your partner, whoever has the lowest risk tolerance gets their way, no questions asked. For example, if you want to use barriers and your partner doesn't, if you're going to have sex with them, then you need to be using barriers because you're the one with the lowest risk tolerance essentially, so you're the one who needs to get your way in that sense. You can change your mind, that person with the lowest risk tolerance can change their mind if and when they decide to but don't try to change their mind for them.
Ideally, somebody shouldn't be trying to change your mind as well. If one person is only comfortable with mutual masturbation, then your option is to do that or just decide that you don't want to be sexual with them at all. I actually was with a partner who said I only want to use digits in order to have sex with you. That was the only way-
Jase: Digital get down as it were.
Emily: Yes, exactly. Not the phone digits, but the finger digits and that was it. They were with another partner and they decided that was the only thing that they were going to do with additional people outside of their primary relationship. I had a higher risk tolerance than that for sure but that's all we ever did and that was fine, it was still great. It's something to think about.
If their decision is based on a lack of information, then yes, you can share that with them. Maybe give them resources to learn more but ultimately they have to take the responsibility for it. You don't want to be the one who convinced them to take a risk that they didn't want to and then something shitty happens that's not ideal. You don't want to be on the end of feeling like, "Oh crap, I made this person do that, that's terrible."
Dedeker: I think that can be a tricky line to balance on.
Emily: Sure.
Dedeker: Because I think that you can always make a request of someone but it has to be in the spirit of it's okay for them to say no to that request. You can make a request of, "Hey, actually, I'm interested in this sexual activity. I know you have some concerns about the risk involved, can we have a conversation about that?" Maybe you see about negotiating that. Maybe they'll say, "Okay yes, sure" or maybe they'll say, "No, that's not okay. I don't really want to renegotiate that."
That has to be okay because I think, if it's not okay, that's when it gets into the territory of I need to try to convince them, I need to change their mind, maybe coerce them, maybe to put pressure on them or I need to manipulate them in some way. That's where it starts getting at and really not good. Making a request is not totally off the table either. I think it's just the spirit that it's done and then being sure to still respect people's risk tolerances and their boundaries.
Jase: Yes. Where even an answer of, "Well, I guess," is like, "Okay, let's not then." That's not a yes. It's like, "Okay, yes, let's have that conversation," and realize that no could be just like a no and then that could also be a no, or you could have that conversation. They're like, "Sure, let's have that conversation," and then it still results in a no. That needs to be a totally valid safe choice to make. I can't stress that enough.
Emily: I think for everyone just remembering that not having sex is a super valid option as well. I think a lot of us forget that because it doesn't feel as I guess powerful or romantic or custom or something but as Jase said from The Magician's episode, there are so many different ways to have sex that don't necessarily involve penetration even, digitized or otherwise toy wise or whatever, penile or not. Yes, you can have sex a lot of different ways and that's also very valid.
Jase: I've had some incredibly rewarding romantic relationships that didn't involve any kind of sex at all. Nothing beyond kissing. There’s just there's a lot of options out there and it's so cool that we have all these options. I think we really miss out when we forget that fact. All right, we’re coming to the end of this and basically, this is where based on all the information from last week's episode, from this week's episode, you realize that there's a lot of different options for how you can proceed.
In trying to just look at how these conversations go, how are people navigating this, to give you some examples to think about that are not just ours we asked our listeners in our Patreon group how they handle their safer sex practices with their partners. Just see the range of how people answer that question. Basically, we took those and looked at what are some of the trends we noticed, what are some of the conversations that came up out of that?
We can share some of those with you here and then we're going to talk about more of those in our bonus episode. To start off, a pretty common agreement that a lot of people have in non-monogamous relationships is not using barriers with their nesting partner, the partner that-
Dedeker: That’s a primary partner.
Jase: -they live with or a primary partner, but using condoms with everyone else. That's a fairly common agreement, however, there are some examples that are the other way around where with their nesting partner they always use condoms because they know that either they or their partner doesn't always do that with everyone else. That's also a valid option that did come up in those conversations.
Some people also brought up how they've done that before which generally is referred to as fluid bonding. I’m not a big fan of that term, actually, because the bonding part implies that it's somehow closer or more intimate or more romantic, and that's really something that's-
Emily: Bonding with the fluids.
Jase: Yes, but that's just not true.
Dedeker: Fluids just be fluids.
Jase: Fluids be fluids.
Emily:
Jase: Exactly. Where maybe you could say we've decided to be cross-contaminated, might be a different thing.
Emily: That's not sexier?
Jase: No.
Dedeker: Oh, man, I would love it though. I would it love just to counterbalance all the imagery that fluid bonding brings up to call it cross-contaminated.
Jase:
Dedeker: That's maybe bringing in some shame and that's leading up to some dirtiness.
Jase: Yes, we don't want that. Absolutely.
Emily: No, it's certainly but-
Dedeker: We don't want that but that kind of--
Jase: It's funny.
Dedeker: That highlights the fact that the way that fluid bonding is putting a weird positive bias on-
Jase: Right.
Dedeker: -not using barriers that you could also put a weird negative bias on it as well.
Jase: What came up in this conversation that made a lot of sense, and I've definitely seen this happen is, someone brought up how they had done fluid bonding in the past, and said, "I'm not ever going to do that, again, because the other person got weird and controlling, and possessive, and things like that." I think a lot of that comes with that association of, "This is somehow more intimate and now, I need to have more control over your behavior with other people, because I'm deciding to have this increased level of risk in terms of my exposure with you." It can be challenging as well.
Something else to keep in mind is that quite a few people actually brought up switching between using barriers or not with specific partners. For example, it could be, "Well, right now, we're both using barriers with everyone else so we're not with each other but sometimes when a relationship with someone else gets more serious, we'll stop using barriers with them and start using them with each other or maybe during COVID, we basically weren't seeing anyone else that we stopped using them but once we start dating again, we'll start using them."
It can also fluctuate, again, to get away from that relationship, escalator idea that, "Once we stop using them, if we ever start again, it means our relationship isn't as good or something that's just has nothing to do with it at all, actually."
Dedeker: Yes. On the show, I think, well, I don't know if this is all of our party line but I know my party line tends to be I really encourage people to take a step back from their relationships and think about, "What are the ways that I would want to protect myself if I wasn't connected to anybody if I didn't have an established nesting partner, or a living partner, or a primary partner or whatever? If I didn't have this 20-year marriage, whatever it is, what would I choose to do to protect myself?" Use that as your guiding light for moving forward even if that means, "Oh, maybe I need to start using barriers with someone that I haven't been using barriers with for several years."
That can be hard, that can be tricky, that can bring up a lot of emotions. I know for me in my life, I'm like, "I feel like that just makes things a lot simpler to know that I know for myself, what protects me, and that's the policy I'm going to use with everyone in my life," but that's not always a popular opinion. Other things that people shared include sharing STI results directly and requesting them from partners, clarifying that, that kind of important information is going to be shared with others in the polycule, and getting people's consent on that.
People talked about the fact that their own personal frequency of testing may change based on their behavior and the number of people in their sexual network. Some people even shared even more health information like vaccination status, mental health diagnosis, medications, including STIs, and sexual health as well that they group all that information together. Some people shared that they just have some basic policies in place like always using condoms, external or internal, for penetration, but don't have specific requirements for a sexual health talk or for testing and don't expect their partners to either.
Generally, the people who shared, the people who were taking more risks also talked about getting tested more often, such as every three or four months or so.
Jase: Yes, so in our bonus, we're going to go into some more of the findings that we found from this. I found it really interesting for me just to get the sense of what people are doing to start thinking about it and having that conversation. If you're a Patreon, please join us for that bonus episode after that. We would also love to hear from all of you on our Instagram Stories. We're posting our question of the week which is, "When do you think is the best time to bring up the sex talk before sleeping with someone?" Really interested to hear everyone's answers.