404 - Break Free of the Dating Loop (with Damona Hoffman)
Modern dating
Damona Hoffman, the Resident Love Expert of The Drew Barrymore Show and OkCupid's Official Dating Coach, has graciously joined us to talk about modern dating for this episode. Damona is the host of the long-running podcast Dates & Mates, which has just started airing its 10th Season. She is also an advice columnist for the LA Times and a writer on dating and relationships for the Washington Post. Damona can frequently be seen on Access Daily sharing the latest dating news.
Throughout this episode, Damona tackles the following questions:
You’ve been a dating coach for several years - have you seen the problems or frustrations people run into change over the years, or is it all varieties on the same theme of “why isn’t he texting me back?”
When we had Michael Kaye from OKC on the show, he mentioned “Singles Sunday” or “Dating Sunday,” which will have been the Sunday just before this episode comes out. What is that about? Is that a particularly good time to be on an app, or is the best strategy to avoid crowds at the Black Friday sale?
We have a lot of people who complain about dating app fatigue. Other than just taking a break, what’s your advice for avoiding fatigue?
What would you say to people who feel hesitant or resistant to using apps for dating? Is it viable to never go on a dating app ever?
Is there any popular dating advice out there that you personally completely disagree with? Any hot takes?
When you are feeling on the fence about someone after the first or second date, do you recommend to continue to getting to know them? And if so, how do I do this without feeling like I’m leading them on while I’m on the fence about them?
What would you say about the so-called dating marketplace imbalance. That is, if a cis man is heterosexual, he is at a disadvantage in the dating pool, and that cis straight and bi women have an easier time finding a partner, perhaps especially if they are non-monogamous.
Find more about Damona on her website, or on social media at @damonahoffman. Also, check out her free profile starter kit for dating apps!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking to Damona Hoffman, the resident love expert of The Drew Barrymore Show, OkCupid’s official dating coach, a writer and fellow podcaster. Damona is the host of the long-running podcast, Dates & Mates, which has just launched its 10th season, wow, and recently received the award for Best Podcast of the Year at the Black Podcasting Awards. She is also an Advice Columnist for The LA Times and a writer on dating and relationships for The Washington Post.
Today, we're so excited to have Damona on the show to discuss a variety of topics about dating, online dating, modern dating culture, including several questions that were submitted by people in our Patreon community.
Damona, thank you so much for joining us today.
Damona: Thank you for making me sound so very official.
Dedeker: Well, so you've been in the trenches in this scene acting as a dating coach for several years. My question is, have you seen the problems or the frustrations that people run into? Has that changed over the years, or is it all varieties on the same theme of why isn't he texting me back?
Damona: No. When I started doing this, which is over 15 years ago, texting wasn't really even a thing. It wasn't even a part of the dating culture. What I try to do in my coaching is really systematize and codify the dating process, so that it doesn't feel so out of our control, and really give people, as I've done this for so long, I've seen that there really are phases that people go through. One phase that has emerged in the last, I would say seven years or so, is what I call the texting trap. That is, we can talk about that all day, but we can get into that later, that's a major shift.
I think it's all hinging on the fact that the speed and the mode of communication has changed dramatically in the last, let's call it 15-20 years. People like to blame dating apps, but really, they should be blaming people. Also, because we want the efficiency, but then we get the efficiency and we're like, oh, there's so much miscommunication. We want social media to give us access to different people in different worlds in different ways of connecting, but it does come at a cost.
Jase: When you mentioned phases that we go through, do you mean cultural phases, or do you mean each individual's phases of their dating process?
Damona: That's interesting. I mean each person's process, but I'm like, there probably are-- I'm actually writing a book right now about how we have really shifted in the way that we date. Really, when we look at it, dating is a social construct that we created. It's really quite recent. Yet, we're still doing it based on a lot of old-fashioned rules. We've been here, I know you talk about this all the time, but it's just time for a lot of these rules to be rewritten. Yet, here we are on social media continuing the echo chamber of the same old stuff.
Dedeker: So fascinating how that happens. What you're saying about us wanting the efficiency and the ease of something like a dating app, but then we complain about the drawbacks of that, that makes so much sense. It's kind of like, yes, we want the fast food, but then complain when it doesn't feel very good sometimes, or when it's maybe not as nutritionally balanced as we would like it to be. Yes, that really clicks something into place for me.
Damona: I like that analogy. You're so right. These are new tools. When we really think about it, social media has really only been around about 15 years. Texting has not been our primary mode of communication, so our brains are tripping over themselves trying to adapt to these new methods of communication. We're still engaging with people on these communication platforms, assuming that it's the same as it was before. It's not. It's not at all.
I talk a lot on Dates & Mates about the difference between real-time communication and where you and I, yes, we are separated by the miles, but we can still see each other on video, we can read body language, I can see you nodding your head, I know you're understanding what I'm saying, but all that context is stripped away when we get to the efficiency of text. It's also happening time-shifted.
Somebody can take all the time to craft a witty and perfect message, but that doesn't mean that you're going to have that same vibe when you meet in person. I'm hearing a lot from people that are frustrated by that, like, oh, that person wasn't how they seemed over text. Of course, they were not, because our brains haven't been conditioned to read the social cues in text alone.
Dedeker: It's also that thing, yes, I'm glad that you highlighted the time shift, where I can sit and craft a really witty, flirtatious, honest text message, but it arrives in that person's phone when they're in the middle of a super stressful thing at work, and so it doesn't land the same way it would if I said it to their face. Already I think that happens just across the board. Yes, I think that makes a lot of sense, that for some reason, our brains haven't caught up to communicating like that. Why would they? It doesn't make any freaking sense.
Damona: Yes. Also, it's happening by committee, in many cases. You get this text and you're like, "Girl, can you read this text? I don't understand. What is he trying to say?" Then she says-- This is just my friends. Then she says, "Oh, I think he's trying to play you," and then you start to form this new idea in your head of something that's happening in the little ellipses, in waiting for a response that may not even be happening. Maybe he's just at work in the middle of a stressful meeting, like you said.
Jase: Yes, gosh, I hadn't even thought about that aspect of, there's this potential for all of your interpretation of everything to be colored more by your friends' interpretations of the messages, and, like you said, getting that, "Wait, what does he mean by this? What's this about?" in a way that you don't in person. I could see that as an interesting pro and a con. On the one hand, I'm not just on my own getting trumped by this person and then getting bamboozled into thinking they're great when actually they're kind of shitty. On the other hand, you could have something like that where your friends are like, "No, I think they're just playing you," because of her experiences, when actually it's something else entirely like he's at work or whatever else.
Damona: Yes, and I would say that that certainly did happen before. I remember being up in a club, or however we met people before. I would hear from my friend, there was this guy that I dated, and my friends were just like, "I don't understand you with this guy." This other guy, he's a wrestler, and he does this, and he does that, and he's so cute. I was not into this other guy that liked me, but then I started thinking, "Oh, well, all my friends like this other guy, so maybe I should date this other guy." It ended up not being right at all.
The difference is, this is now happening at hyperspeed. While you may have had that experience that played out once every, I don't know, once a year, now you're having those kinds of interactions every day, and you're having that endorphin rush and the excitement when every time you get a message, multiple times a day, every time you get a response, every time you send a message and you're waiting for a response. It's an emotional roller coaster that we haven't really been taught how to ride.
Dedeker: Well, speaking of that, I think that the natural next question that people like to ask is about the fatigue that comes from that, and I think there's many different flavors of fatigue. There's the emotional fatigue, like you're describing, of going through so many cycles of I meet someone on the app, I get excited about them. We meet in real life, it's a dud. Or I meet someone on the app, I get excited about them, and then they ghost me. Or the fatigue from, I'm swiping, I'm swiping, I'm swiping. There's no one cool. Oh my God.
What's your take on avoiding fatigue other than just what I think most people do is reach a breaking point and then throw their phone in the garbage and walk away for at least 20 minutes before getting back on the app?
Damona: I wish people would do that. The problem is they stay in it. No, they stay in it and swipe in that phase, and they're like hate swiping, and it just creates more frustration. It's funny because right before the pandemic, all I got asked to talk about or write about in articles was dating fatigue. Everybody was like, "Damona, please address this dating fatigue," because I'll keep coming back to the change in communication and the speed of communication.
So many of my clients, I have a system, and I tell them the system, and then they break the system, and then they're like, "Why am I so angry about this dating process? "Because you didn't follow the system." I have a screening step in between. It's not just match, chat. I should say, most of my clients come to me because they're interested in a long-term monogamous relationship. Some are poly, but people aren't coming to me for hookups or swinging advise.
Dedeker: Sure.
Damona: I can create a system that works pretty well that can be repeated, and I find that when we put a screening step in between, after you've matched with someone and you're not just like, message, message, message, when can we meet, that it makes you, first of all, a real person and not just a name in an app, and it allows you an opportunity to see if somebody is worth your time. Our time is really our most valuable resource, which is funny the way that we treat our time right now because we are in such a rush to shortcut a lot of this communication that a lot of my clients were just ending up on dates with people that were not at all what they were looking for, but then it's wasting more time when they think they're being more efficient by just, let's just get to the date.
No, just 15 minutes on a phone call, a video chat, some other screening step before so that you can hear the tone of their voice, you can see what the rhythm is between you when you talk, and you can tell, is this person worth me spending an hour or two with. That wasn't happening, and so prior to the pandemic, we were on just hyper speed, and that was all I was talking about. Then, as you know, we had a little speed bump that we hit. Then the screening that I had been encouraging everybody to do all along became the actual date. Then we went into this period of slow dating, and the cadence completely changed.
I've been feeling in the last, let's call it four months, like really since the summer, the fatigue is starting to come back again.
Dedeker: I believe that. I think just watching the cycle and watching the cycle of what people are talking about, and yes, I think that in the past six months, I've read so many articles about hetero pessimism, which I think is a symptom of just general dating fatigue. I want to make sure that I'm understanding your screening process, because I think normally the community wisdom around this has either been just screen ahead of time before even matching. Screen with your swiping. Or it's been sure screen, but it's going to be a coffee date. Maybe it'll still be an hour or something like that, but you are like, no, just like 15 minutes, and that's when you formulate your impressions and just see if they're worth taking even to the next step of a coffee date or a dinner date or things like that. Is that right?
Damona: I like that.
Dedeker: Okay.
Damona: That's my preference. You talk to 20 different dating experts, you're going to hear 20 different stories, but this has worked for me and my clients for the last 15 plus years. I do not believe in screening in prior-- I think we are just trying to do too much screening prior to matching. I often find , my dating accelerator program clients almost ran me out of town when I said to them, "I think you should try swiping a little more liberally."
Dedeker: Oh, wow.
Damona: Everybody was like--
Emily: No, no one wants to hear that.
Damona: No. I'm like, look, here's the facts. You're trying to screen people before you've even met them. You're going based on one photo most times. I mean, this is how most people swipe. It's one photo. No, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, maybe, let me look at a couple more photos. Oh, actually no. I'm like, if we can just let in a little bit more possibility.
Jase, getting back to your original question of what are the phases, so I identify what I call five dating loops, and these are the places that people are stuck and not moving through in dating when they come to me. It's either mindset, so that's both how you're thinking about yourself and what you have to offer in dating in a relationship, and it's also what you want, really clarifying what are your dating or relationship goals, and who are you looking for. Who are you looking to meet? That's, first of all, what I think a lot of people are skipping, and that's why the fatigue, because we are burned out because we have no criteria that we're searching based on. We're like, "I'm looking to feel something. I'm looking for a pretty phase, and yet I'm frustrated because I am not having meaningful connection." We reverse engineer that and really start with the meaning.
Then we do sourcing. Where are you finding your dates? I met my husband online. I am a huge fan of online dating. It's how most of my clients have met their matches. It's not the only thing. People are like, "Well, what about off of dating apps?" How do you coach your clients? Like now the pandemic is, I don't know, is it over? Is the pandemic over?
Dedeker: No one know.
Jase: We'll never know.
Dedeker: I think Emily said it well the other day, which is, we've moved into a different phase of the pandemic. I think that's the safest thing to say.
Damona: Yes. As we're talking about phases, I don't know if it's over, but I'm like, I never stopped telling my clients to use other methods of meeting people. I say it's the most powerful tool in your dating toolbox, and I'm bullish on online dating, but I don't think it's the only thing you should be doing. That's what also creates a lot of dating fatigue.
Then we go into screening, which we were just talking about, then presentation, flirting, how you're showing up on the date, and then follow through. Follow through is the easiest thing, and yet it's a thing that most people screw up.
Dedeker: No, but, okay. Let me guess.
Damona: You don't know how to close the loop.
Dedeker: Yes. I'm just going to guess by what you mean by follow through. That's either the sense of, okay, I'm intrigued enough that I want to get to know this person better, but maybe, I don't know, I'm too shy, I'm too busy, I get distracted by other things, or I feel a little scared about trying to follow through with this person, or it's that I'm not interested, but I don't know how to tell this person that I'm not interested. Does that cover the basis of follow through?
Damona: Yes. You nailed it.
Dedeker: Oh gosh.
Damona: You nailed it. We have a lot of fear in our communication. I'm afraid if I tell this person I'm not interested, that they'll be disappointed, and I say, what's the more compassionate thing to do, to let them know you're not interested and have them experience a little bit of disappointment, or for you to ghost and disappear and make them wonder what happened, or keep them on the hook and somewhat date them or hook up with them when you really know that you're not into it. That's not kind or compassionate.
Dedeker: Right.
Jase: Yes.
Damona: I find most people, and I know it's easier said than done, but I find that most people, when they hear a clear yes or a clear no, that they just really appreciate the clarity. Well, usually a clear no, they appreciate the clarity, they appreciate knowing so they can move on.
Jase: Right. Yes. Something else I was thinking about when you were talking about the pace of things and just how fast this goes too, is that I noticed for myself years ago, I think I commented about this on an episode of the podcast once, where I found that if I spent too long at a time looking through people's profiles on an app swiping, and even if I'm going through and reading them all, it's like you get to this point where it's just like, either you're just-- it's like I don't have enough effort left in me to do this and so I'm just saying no to everyone, or you go the other way of, I'm just, I don't know, I guess I'm just saying yes to more things because maybe I'll never meet anyone and I'll be alone forever. You can get in your head about this.
I was thinking about that. When you think about meeting people outside of dating apps, when are you ever going to be presented with a hundred people that you're trying to evaluate? That's just not a thing we're built for. That's not, you know what I mean? We might at a party, you might meet 20 new people. That's very different from how many you could get through in an hour of sleeping.
Damona: That's a really fair point. Yes, it's, like I said earlier, it's happening at scale. It's happening so fast. There's this thing that psychologists call the online disinhibition effect. When I'm online, I may say things, I may behave in a way that I would not in person. The other side of that is you go-- but let's say you go to a party where you meet 100 people.
Jase: Sure.
Damona: You're going to be interacting with them very differently than if you have a little bit of a level of anonymity. By the way, also, let's be honest, people out here cutting and pasting their messages.
Dedeker: Oh, sure. Oh, Yes.
Damona: It's Good morning, beautiful, to 12 people.
Jase: Right. Yes.
Dedeker: Yes, I've dated that guy.
Damona: Right? I know. Thankfully my husband and I have been together since before that texting was as big as it is, but I'm sure I would have gotten those texts. It is so easy to hedge your bets, and so what's happening is that we don't want to put ourselves out there too much because if you invest too much energy in someone and then you get disappointed, they ghost or you just find that it's not a match, then you really feel like you've lost something, you've lost a piece of yourself. It doesn't have to be that way.
Dedeker: I want to explore what I see as maybe the other side of dating app fatigue. I don't know. We've also heard from a lot of people-- I've heard from a lot of my clients who feel either apprehension or fatigue even before getting on the apps. I've heard this both from people who have been on apps before, have done online dating before and they're just dreading going back to the game. I would put myself in that category. Or those people that I've met who still have yet to ever go on a dating app, and maybe they've been in a monogamous relationship for the last 15 years and they're new to this and they're just like, "Oh my God, it's going to be so terrible."
What would you say to people who feel that apprehension, who feel hesitant, who feel resistant to using apps for dating? Is it viable to never, ever go on a dating app these days and still meet someone?
Damona: I guess it's viable. Anytime I make a statement dating apps are how most people meet, then somebody is like, "But, but, but, I never was on a dating." Whatever stats I have, or anecdotal evidence, or scientific evidence, somebody has a story that can dispute that. I think you've got to try it once, right? I don't know.
I come from a time when my husband and I did not tell people that's how we met.
Dedeker: Right. It was so, so embarrassing.
Damona: Because that was very nerdy. Okay, you want to hear a really embarrassing story?
Dedeker Yes, please.
Damona: Okay. When we met-- When I initially went on the apps, we did not have all of our camera rolls on our phones. I had to go to FedEx Kinkos to have-- I wish I was making this up. It makes me sound like a dinosaur. It really wasn't that long ago, but this is an example of how quickly things have changed and how much they've changed. I had to get a disc, not a thumb drive, you all, a disk with my scanned photos. I was like, "Oh my God, I have to have this guy Kinkos because I don't know how to scan a photo." I'm like, "This is so embarrassing. He's going to know I'm on this dating app." I was only on it-- I was meeting people out and about.
My boss at the time was divorced, and she was like, "I don't have time to date, so I'm going to be on this dating app, and I'm going to set up three dates." This woman was an online dating super superhero. She would set up three dates in an evening. She'd just churn them through. Yes , she would churn them through. She'd be like, "I'm going to leave early. I have three dates tonight. Cover for me." I'm like, "Okay, I got you." She was like, "You should try online dating. There's all these guys here." I was like, "I don't need to try online dating. I meet people all the time. I'm always on a date. I'm out four or five nights a week." She was like, "Just try it."
I loved it because I felt like I just had more control over what happened in my dating life. It wasn't just by chance, like, "Well, I hope somebody I like is at this bar tonight. I hope somebody talks to me." I've seen just this whole evolution play out, and it's amazing how quickly we forget. How quickly, right? It's like, all of these options, they've never gone away. They've never gone away. What will happen now is if you're going to have-- Okay, I'm speaking to the people who right now are up on their high horse, like, "I have never done dating apps. I would never do dating apps." Everyone, if you're meeting people out and about, what are they doing? They're looking at their phones. Maybe the easiest way to get to them is actually by starting with the phone.
Dedeker: Get all up in the phone. That put a really funny image in my head, what you were talking about earlier, about if a guy asks you to send nudes, having to trek on down to the FedEx Kinkos.
Damona: Chow is not a thing. That was not even a thing. Because they had strict guidelines.
Dedeker: Oh, I'm sure.
Jase: Yes.
Damona: I'm sure. You had to actually leave your house. If you wanted nudes, it was in person.
Jase: Oh, wow. We would love to-- Before we take the break, before we go into the second half of this episode and get to some of our listener questions, is there any popular dating advice that you come across often, or that your clients bring to you a lot that you just totally disagree with? Any hot takes?
Damona: Popular dating advice? I would say there's a lot of conflicting advice on when you should have sex, and how many dates. I think that's so personal. I think that's so individual. I don't think that there's a formula. I know there are some people that have number of dates. I know Steve Harvey, he said 90 days in his book.
Dedeker: Before sex?
Damona: 90 days before sex, and I'm just like--
Dedeker: Are you listening to Steve Harvey now?
Jase: I was going to say, are you talking like a man the whole time that you are-- are you thinking like a man for those whole 90 days?
Damona: 100%.
Jase: Okay.
Damona: I'm like, man, woman, anyone, 90 days? Really? Okay.
Jase: Yes, that's--
Damona: A lot of people still live by these old rules, and like, "Oh, I have to do this because that person said that thing, and then that's not the rule." My approach on Dates and Mates has always been, you make your own rules, but make sure that you are living by your rules. The problem is, when you make rules for yourself and then you are not in integrity with your own rules, then you're not living your best life.
Dedeker: Do you have an example of rules that someone will set for their dating approach, but then not necessarily follow?
Damona: All the time, I'll hear, oh-- Sometimes my clients will have a really strict idea. I had one guy that was like, "Oh, no, no I don't date nurses. No nurses." I was like, "Can you explain that?" He had different experiences with nurses, and they were similar, or he saw a correlation, so he was just like, no nurses.
I had another client who had been married to and then dated in a very public celebrity relationship, someone named Michael. She was like, "I found somebody on an app," and I was like, "Look, here's this guy. He has all these things that you're looking for," and then she's like, "Oh, no, his name is Michael."
Dedeker: Oh boy.
Damona: "I can't date any more Michaels." What does his name say about his character? I can't take any more Michaels. I'm so sorry.
Dedeker: To be fair, I do have a soft rule for myself that I can't date any more people from the VFX industry after I dated three in a row. It's a soft rule. It's more of if I end up matching with someone who happens to be in the VFX industry, I'm just going to roll my eyes but I'll probably still go on the date.
Damona: Yes. That's fine. That's all that I'm asking people to do, is to just have a little bit of suspension of disbelief that we're always looking for connections, and sometimes we create correlations that may not necessarily be there. Maybe there is some connection between these people in the VFX industry or nurses. Maybe it was the nurse's schedules, and he just couldn't handle that. What I try to do then is to get underneath. What is that thing that you're saying? It's not, I don't date nurses. It's, I don't date people who can't show me the same care that they do for the people they work with, or the other people in their life.
Dedeker: I like that.
Damona: That's probably what's underneath it. If we just say, oh, I can't date nurses, I can't date people in the VFX industry, I don't know, I want to know more about that, Dedeker.
Dedeker: Oh, okay. Well, it's because I lived in Los Angeles for several years. I was in the entertainment industry mostly on the acting, dancing, voiceover side. I'm also a nerd. Who are the other nerds in the entertainment industry? It's all the VFX people. That's how Jase and I met.
Damona: Nothing's wrong with nerds. It's just that you didn't want to--
Dedeker: No, nothing at all. I just don't want to be a boring person with a type.
Damona: Oh. Well, we are seeing that the stats are showing people are dating less by type than they used to.
Dedeker: Oh, interesting.
Damona: That's encouraging.
Dedeker: That's encouraging.
Damona: It's funny to me how people identify a type. Actually, there's also some new research on how our type is really informed by the people that we've dated in the past. We're usually either moving towards that thing that we identified like, oh, it's a funny person. Oh, it's a smart creative type. That's me talking. Or whatever. That thing that we identify is why we're attracted to that person, and then we seek to replicate it. It might not have even been that thing that we identified that was actually the reason that we connected in the first place.
Dedeker: We could have a whole conversation also about desirability politics and all of the implications of that. We have already done that on an episode. People want to go check out Multiamory Episode 366. That's a fantastic episode where we talk more about that.
Damona: We could have a whole conversation about it, but it sounds like you've already covered it, and it sounds like we have a lot of other things to cover today.
Jase: Yes, we have so much. Everyone was really excited to ask their questions, and we're going to get to those. First, we're going to take a quick break to talk about some ways that you can support this show. If this is information that you value getting out there into the world for free, take a moment to check out our sponsors, and if any of them interest you, check it out. It does directly help support our show.
We're back, and we're going to get into some listener questions. Are you ready, Damona?
Damona: I'm born ready.
Jase: Okay, great. All right. Our first one here, and just for everyone at home to know, some of these are combinations of a few different people's questions because there did tend to be some themes that were recurring in these. If this sounds similar to your question, it's probably partly based on your question. Here we go here.
When you are feeling on the fence about someone after a first or second date, do you recommend to keep getting to know them? Let's see. In my experience, I've found that if I don't feel a spark on that first date, I rarely develop it after that. I'm curious if maybe I should be more patient or if that's different for other people. If that's the case, how do I do that without feeling like I'm leading them on when I'm not sure if I'm feeling it?
Damona: I'll make it simple. I have a three-day rule. Remember how before the break I was saying all these things about not having rules? I have a rule. I've had to create some timelines and rules for clients because literally, just like you, I get the same questions and I'm like, "Oh, you guys want a timeline. Let me just give it to you. Three dates." I say you lead with curiosity. If you're curious enough about them after the first date to spend another hour with them, go on the second date. If you're curious enough at the end of the second date to spend another hour with them and there's more to be discovered and they didn't offend you or have any of your deal breakers, and these are things that we figure out in the mindset at the very beginning of our dating accelerator program, if there's something in there where you're like, I'm curious, or I'm intrigued, or I'm enjoying this person, this human, go on a third date. If you're not feeling any sexual intrigue by the end of the third date, I say probably okay to let it go.
We're all out here chasing this spark, this magical mythical thing that doesn't often show up. Especially not on the first date when people are not really themselves and are taking their time to really figure out if they can even trust you and open up and show you who they truly are.
Jase: That makes a lot of sense.
Damona: What do you think?
Jase: I've definitely found that some of my relationships I've had have been that maybe we started as something more casual, or has in the same friend group and hung out and then that develops into that, oh, you know what, I'm actually pretty into this person. It's not just like, oh, bam I met them right away. Versus on the other hand, I've had many experiences of, wow, we've got all this attraction and sparks right up front, and then we've got to really awkwardly figure out how to break up because this is actually not a good fit, even though we had a certain attraction there. I do think there's a little bit of that fairy tale myth we have of, oh, it'll be magic and you'll just know.
Damona: Yes, it's funny, my book is called The Modern Love Myth.
Dedeker: You talked about that.
Damona: This is how I can absolutely co-sign what you just said. My husband just read my draft of the book, and I tell this whole story about this time when I felt chemistry, and I was at, there's this bar, you might know it, called Lola's in LA.
Jase: Oh, yes.
Damona: Did you remember the martini bar? That was where I took all my dates. I'm at Lola's, I'm like, "This is the guy." I'm explaining all these details of the date. My husband said he was reading it like, "Wait, we didn't talk about musicals. We didn't call my brother. We didn't do this." Then he was like, "Wait, this wasn't us."
Dedeker: Oh no.
Damona: I wrote it just in the mindset of how at that time I was like, "This is the guy, this is it, this is everything." I didn't know that the actual guy was going to walk in the door nine months later, he was right behind him. We get fixated on this idea, and we really want to feel something on a date.
I'll give your listeners a really quick tip that will save them a lot of heartache, to shorten that first date. We are way overstaying our welcome on the first dates. I like to think of a date as like, it's like a inverted U wave. I'm not like a science person. What do you remember about your last date? You remember the beginning, and you remember the end. Even with my husband, I literally couldn't tell you one thing that we talked about on a date. I don't know one thing. He has a better memory than I do, so he probably would remember. I remember the beginning when I first saw him, and I remember what happened at the end, and that's it.
We leave people with those memories and those feelings. We want the date to feel like it's ending on a high point. If you spend six hours with them and you go to three different bars on your first date, you get to the point where there's a lull and then you're like, "Oh, I guess I better call it a night." Then what do you remember? "Well, I thought he was a dud. I was bored by the end. I don't know, I'm not really feeling it. Next."
Dedeker: Regulate your dosage at the beginning so that you actually know--
Damona: Micro doses.
Dedeker: Yes, micro doses, so that you know whether or not you actually like it. I'm into that.
Damona: Wait, I like that, TM.
Dedeker: We're all--
Damona: Is that how trademarks work? We'll just go?
Dedeker: You just say it on a podcast that it's done. TM TM TM.
Damona: Micro dose dating TM, Damona Hoffman.
Dedeker: I have a long preamble to this next listener question, and it's actually listener-like 20 questions because we got about 20 of basically the same question, just different varieties. Let me go into my long preamble, though.
When Emily and I saw you speak at Podcast Movement, you talked a little bit about your journey heading into this field, and you mentioned being a casting director back in the day, and that you initially pivoted into offering classes for actors on developing personal branding, and then moved into dating coaching. Now, this is really interesting to me because all three of us worked as actors in LA at a certain point. There's definitely that overlap. I want to speak to the tension between presenting yourself as desirable/hireable versus presenting yourself completely authentically.
For instance, from the actor perspective, there were these two arguments I remember. One of them was, okay, yes, on your resume, just say yes that you can do horse riding even if the last time you were on a horse was 20 years ago. If that's what gets you in the room, it gets you in the room. Versus the other argument saying, don't do that, don't embarrass yourself in the audition room. Really don't say that you can do horse riding unless you are an expert. I think that there's similar arguments with dating and dating profiles where maybe it's not a straight-up lie if I just don't mention on my profile that I'm interested in non-monogamy, versus on the flip side if I put that up front and center, maybe that means more rejection or being swiped left on by potential people who could be interested in me. We got basically this question about should I include blank difficult point about myself in my dating profile? Should I include no monogamy? Should I include disability? Should I include a trauma history? Should I include the fact that I've been to prison? All kinds of stuff.
With that very long preamble, where do you fall on that?
Damona: I always believe in truth in advertising. If you were to take my class when you were an actor, you would hear me say, if you can't horseback ride, do not put it on your resume. Because from the casting director's standpoint, we'd be pissed. We'd be like, "I found this person who's fantastic, and they said they could ride horses, and here they can't ride horses. Now I hired them for this job and I put my name on them to be able to do this. Now I have to go and recast, and that's a real pain in my butt." It's not exactly the same, but it's the same in dating, where it's like, "Wait a minute, I made this whole investment in getting to know you, and now we have this core difference in what our relationship goal is, or what it looks like for us to be in a relationship, and now I feel like you hid something from me." Something that is as important as practicing non-monogamy, I do feel like that should be in a profile.
As far as a disability, I actually get the question on Dates and Mates a lot, like, "What if I have an invisible disability?" I say, if it's something that is either really important to your lifestyle or very obvious, from jump, I do think you should put that in your profile, but own it. It's not an issue. It's obviously not an issue if that's how you live your life. You just say it without shame and without blame and without baggage. This just is, it is what it is. Do you need to get into all your trauma history? Probably not. I tell people like, "Your personal details, they need to be earned by somebody. You can't just give them freely to anyone. Not everyone deserves to know your story." I say stuff like that probably should wait until you've built some trust with that person.
Dedeker: Okay. That makes sense. I think that on the show, we've generally fallen on that side as well, of just be truthful as much as you can upfront. Again, there's one of those tired-out things that I think gets recycled a lot of that like, no, be as attractive as a package as you possibly can. I think in particular what I've noticed is, a lot of men, a lot of straight men often operating under this assumption of there's just not enough options to go around. I'm getting crickets on all the dating apps, and so I need to not put anything that might remotely turn anybody off on my dating profile. I think that's where I often see a lot of people struggle, is often a lot of straight men feeling like it's just too slim of pickens that I can't be fully truthful and honest about what's actually on the table here, which doesn't tend to help the whole dating culture, really.
Damona: Yes. I had somebody ask me, "Should I put a picture, or should I mention that I have kids?" I say no pictures of kids on your dating app. That came down hard on my mom. You cannot use pictures of my kids. My kids are not your dating app bait. I think you should mention that you have a child if you have a child. That's important. Everybody has something that is a thing that might make them less attractive to what I say are the wrong people. I could do a whole conversation with you all about dating strategy, because there's a right way and a wrong way to use the apps. The problem is, people are out here using the tools in the wrong way. They're taking a hammer and trying to use it like a saw. No wonder you are frustrated. I find that usually you can improve your online dating experience specifically by improving your dating profile, by using the app in different ways, by searching different ways, by trying a different app, by swapping out your primary photo.
I know I just threw a bunch of stuff at you, but you get the point. There are so many ways to pull the levers, and I just feel like the weakest way to pull the lever is to say, like, "I'm just going to hold back this thing that's really core to who I am or what I'm looking for because somebody is not going to see me or like me because of it."
Jase: When we've talked about this on the past on this show, when it comes to non-monogamy specifically, it's that idea of, sure, you might get fewer matches, but they're going to be matches who are into what you're into, or at least more likely to be, where it's like, sure, I could leave that off of my profile and maybe get a bunch more matches that then I end up wasting a bunch of my time and their time when it turns out we're looking for a totally different kind of relationship. I think we can sometimes get caught up in, I just want that dopamine hit of someone liked me and I matched with someone, rather than is this a good match, is this actually a match.
Damona: Well, this is where the social media effect comes in. We were talking earlier about the speed of dating and changing modes of communication, and we didn't really touch on social media. That is a factor. We have all been conditioned to chase likes. Dating apps should not be a place where you're chasing likes. You should be fostering connection, not chasing likes. A lot of times, when I do a profile polish for my clients, they actually get fewer messages, and I'm like, "Great, because I would rather you have fewer messages, you are less overwhelmed." Usually, they'll tell me the quality of the messages is higher. It's not just like a hey beautiful. It's really something substantive that speaks to who they are, what they want, what they've taken the time to write, or the pictures they've taken the time to curate, and it feels better. I promise you, it feels better than empty likes to get messages that really make you feel seen.
Dedeker: That makes a lot of sense. I imagine from a client perspective maybe that could initially be very panic-inducing of, "Oh no, this lady's advice was terrible." Yes, paying attention to the quality of it rather than the quantity of it, I think makes a lot of sense.
Damona: They usually figure it out pretty quickly because they go from, I have a ton of messages and no dates, to, I have a ton of dates and fewer messages, but less stress around that. Just the act of responding to all your messages and DMs and messages within the app, and text and all that, that is a lot. That is a lot of mental energy. No wonder people have dating app fatigue. Yes, they're burnout. They notice it pretty quickly when it's like, "Oh, my inbox is not clogged up with people that I don't want to meet, but I'm actually feeling like I'm having engagement and I'm having meaningful conversations with people." That is just readily apparent.
I tell them at the beginning, I'm like, "This is what's going to happen. I do a 10-week program. This is what's going to happen. You're going to have a bunch of messages, you're going to have this and this is going to happen. Then you're going to hit, six weeks in, you're going to hit a little bit of a lull. You'll be waiting for the matches that are right for you. Don't panic. Don't sign off of the app." Most people, they get the initial influx of messages, and then when they hit that lull a few weeks in, they panic and they withdraw from the app.
Most people will tell me, "Oh, I've tried online dating." "How long were you on it?" "I was on it for a week or two, or I did this app and then I signed off and then I signed on." You have to give the algorithm time to work. You have to put in the time to figure out even how to use the app, how to filter effectively, how to fine-tune your profile for what you're looking to meet. That doesn't happen overnight.
Dedeker: I can anticipate that we would probably have a lot of listeners, maybe straight male listeners who will come in with this assumption of, "Okay. Yes, yes, yes, that's fine for all the heterosexual and bi women who have an easy time finding a partner, but not for straight guys like me where it's cricket." Do you take the same approach? Do you think that's all BS? What's your take on that?
Damona: I think it's mostly BS, and I hear the same thing. This is what's so funny. Because I have heterosexual clients, I have queer clients, I have women, I have men, and I literally hear the same thing. If everyone's having the same experience-- It's like when you're at a party and everybody is thinking that everyone else is having a better time. Everybody feels really awkward, and then somebody turns on your jam and everybody's on the dance floor. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to turn on your jams.
Dedeker: Damona's just trying to pump up the jam with the online dating.
Jase: I love that. It does make it sound a lot more fun than I think a lot of people associate online dating. I'm into it, I'm here for it.
Damona: I do want people to adopt it. I tell my clients, adopt an attitude of yes. I'm just going to try it. Just have fun. Maybe you can't sustain fun for 10 weeks, and that's fine, but can you sustain fun for a week? Can you say, "Okay, I'm going to flip my perspective on this right now for this period of time. Then next week I'll assess, and next week I will assess." If you need a break, that's fine too. I don't want people out here angry swiping. If you get to that point where you're in dating fatigue or burnout, pause, give yourself a reset, and then come back to it when you can have a fresh mindset. This is why I talk about the five dating loops, because it loops all the way back to the beginning. We got to the end, now we're in burnout, fatigue, frustration, let's start back over at mindset. How do we adjust that and come into this fresh again with the kind of energy that's going to be attractive to the people that I want to meet?
Jase: I love that. That's such a good attitude change to it. Just that idea of taking it a little bit at a time. I want to have fun with this in the same way that I would hopefully be having fun if I was out somewhere meeting people in person, instead of, I'm here doing work, and I need results for my work, I need to check this off my to-do list, I need to get that match, I need to get that date. I think that sometimes we can end up falling into that trap of, I'm so focused on results that I've lost sight of any sense of enjoying this process.
Damona: I agree with you, and I would say I'm also results-oriented. I'm both results-oriented and fun-oriented.
Jase:
Damona: I think it should be a blend, but that's the other thing that I do with folks in my programs. I'm like, "Let's get curious. Let's get curious about ourselves. What can you learn about yourself? Maybe you didn't get laid, maybe you didn't get the relationship that you wanted, but did you learn something? Do you have a new perspective? Did your experience of X, Y, Z shift at all?" I get really granular. I have people track those things, and track their dates and see how they're changing and evolving in this process. I think really the greatest way to get to know ourselves is actually in relationship to other people, so why not use this opportunity?
I'll just reframe the results as you were saying. The result is not necessarily like, "I want to have a relationship with this person and that person." If the result is like, "I want to feel this way, or I want to learn this thing about myself and set yourself up for success even within your dating micro goals, your microdosing of dating-"
Dedeker: TM TM, gal.
Damona: Then you can--
Damona: TM. Then you can make sure that you are at least getting your need met in that way. The truth is, we don't have any control. We don't have any control over how people react or who we match with necessarily, but we can control how we feel about it. Through pulling some of these levers, you can see your life and your experiences shift. The question is then what you do with that learning going forward.
Dedeker: I love that. I love that idea of almost giving yourself a little exit interview on each step of the process to really track that sense of, "What did you learn? What got clarified? What became more firmed up for you as far as what you want?" That's such a wonderful idea to incorporate into the dating process so that you can at least start adding meaning even when you're running into duds or frustrations or things didn't work out the way that you did. It's finding a way to integrate that struggle into your own growth. Gosh, that makes so much sense. Well, Damona, I think this is a wonderful place to end this conversation even though we could talk for so much longer. Can you let our listeners know where they can find more about you and your work?
Damona: You can find me on the Dates & Mates podcast every Tuesday, Season 10. I do my program, The Dating Accelerator, I do twice a year live. That is actually common up. You can find out about all that at datesandmates.com, as well as listen to episodes of the podcast or find it on your favorite podcast platform. I'm on all the socials @damonahoffman.