438 - Aromantic Partnerships Matter Too
Aromanticism 101
A lot of us have heard about asexuality now that it’s gained a bit more traction in media, but fewer people have heard about being aromantic (sometimes abbreviated to aro).
Someone who is aromantic “experiences little to no romantic attraction to persons of any gender. People who are aromantic also lack interest in having romantic relationships.”
For the purposes of this episode, we’re defining “romantic attraction” as “a desire to have emotional contact and interaction with a partner.” It’s important to realize that romantic attraction and a romantic relationship is going to vary from individual to individual and couple to couple. Some people who are aromantic are also asexual, but there isn’t always an overlap. However, both identities fall under the “Asexual Spectrum Identities.” The opposite of aromanticism is alloromanticism.
Some other identities that fall under the asexual spectrum are:
Gray-romantic or gray-sexual: These terms refer to individuals who fall somewhere in the middle of aromantic and romantic and asexual and sexual. They may experience some romantic or sexual feelings but only under certain conditions.
Demiromantic or demisexual: These terms refer to people who only experience romantic or sexual feelings with another person after forming an emotional bond.
Lithromantic or akoiromantic: These terms refer to people who may feel romantic feelings toward other people but do not wish for those feelings to be returned. If those feelings are reciprocated, the attraction fades.
Recipromantic or reciprosexual: These terms refer to individuals who only experience a romantic or sexual attraction if they know that the other person also feels the same way.
Quoiromantic: Inability to differentiate between romantic and platonic attraction.
Amatonormativity was coined by Dr. Elizabeth Brake to describe the societal pressure to pursue a romantic, sexual, long-term monogamous relationship, especially marriage, and the assumption that everyone wants the same thing. In her writings, she uses the term to point out how this assumption minimizes and invalidates people who don’t fit that one mold, such as asexual, aromantic, or non-monogamous people, and causes us to treat single people as incomplete and somehow lacking. A similar term, mononormative, is used for the assumption that monogamous relationships are the only valid or worthwhile relationships and that anyone who isn’t in one should be seeking to enter one.
Multiamory: Tools for Modern Relationships
Anecdotes from listeners
“I’m not driven to find romantic connections and tend to want to foster close platonic ones instead. There’s always been a thing for me where I didn’t really understand much of the difference between platonic and romantic connections anyway because I rarely experience what feels like a romantic connection.”
“I need emotionally intimate friendships that are mutually supportive to thrive and sometimes that can be difficult to find in the social climate where I live. I’ve been lucky to find a group of amazing humans in the last year that really fulfill that need for me.”
“Aromanticism has had a lot of interplay with my grey aceness as well and has had me thoroughly confused about myself in many ways.”
“I think an important thing to cover is that aromanticism is a spectrum. I identify as quoiromantic, which to me I experience as not really feeling a difference between platonic and romantic feelings. I don’t necessarily consider myself aromantic because I like romantic attraction but I can’t really tell when, if that makes sense.”
“I dated an aro person and one thing I wish was better understood is that aro people don’t necessarily experience less attachment, and definitely aren’t inherently insensitive even though I think these are two stereotypes associated with aromanticisim.”
“Aromanticism is a ‘desire blank’ experience for me. I do love activities and definitely get attached to people. It’s hard to express effectively how painful it is to watch a relationship fail because I don’t match a feeling in the other person, not because I don’t want to feel that way but because I can’t.”
“Biggest observation from dating an aro person is that she doesn’t experience NRE in the same way that romantic people do (which I honestly think is a blessing sometimes). On the other hand I can understand that someone could feel excluded by not experiencing NRE or wanting to experience it.”
Some common misconceptions about aromantic people are:
Aromantics can’t be in partnerships/relationships: Aromantic people can be in committed relationships, but generally they don’t get crushes, feel the“gooey” or “cuddly” feelings of being in love, or potentially even have much of a desire to kiss, hold hands or cuddle their partner.
Aromantic people are lonely/loners: A lot of aromantic people simply have other relationships that fulfill them just as much as romantic relationships fill alloromantic people. These can be close friendships, relationships with family members, queerplatonic partnerships and more.
Aromantic people just haven’t found the right person yet: Many of our listeners essentially stated that they simply can’t feel romantic attraction, no matter who the person is. Romantic partnerships just aren’t something they are interested in or have a need for. They get their needs for companionship met in other ways.
Aromantic people are “repulsed” by romance: While some people may feel repulsion towards romance, others may be neutral about it, may feel positive about it, and some even enjoy bits of romance in their movies or books, but simply don’t feel the need to be romantic themselves.
How can you be an ally to aromantic people?
Visit https://www.aromanticism.org/en/faq for a great resource on aromanticism, especially for someone who is dating someone who is aromantic.
Listen to our episodes on relationship anarchy and chosen family (150, 307, and 339). We talk a lot about the concept of queerplatonic partnerships there which is something that was brought up a lot in the literature about aromanticism.
Realize there’s a lot of ways to have a meaningful relationship and a lot of different forms relationships can take.
Don’t ask intrusive questions about an aromantic or asexual person’s relationship or sex life.
If someone tells you they are aromantic, believe them. Do your research, ask clarifying questions and don’t automatically assume that every aromantic person’s experience is the same.
If a friend or family member comes out to you as aromantic, ask them if there are any kind of societal expectations they don’t want associated with them, or want others to assume they want, such as kids, marriage, long term relationships, etc.
If your partner comes out to you as aromantic, there may be some challenges for both of you. Using a tool like the relationship anarchy smorgasbord might be a great way to discuss what parts of the relationship you do want with one another and what parts you no longer want to engage in. See if there are ways you can renegotiate the partnership and understand that it may simply be easier for you both to end the partnership as it currently stands if each of your needs aren’t being met in the ways you want.
Consider reading this article about prioritizing friendship over romantic connections: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/10/people-who-prioritize-friendship-over-romance/616779/
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're talking about aromantic relationships. Many of us are aware of asexuality, but did you know that there are people out there who consider themselves aromantic as well? Today we're going to talk about the spectrum of aromanticism, some common misconceptions and challenges that aromantic people may face, as well as hear from some of our listeners about having aromantic partners or being aromantic themselves.
If you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show all the time, you can check out our book Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book or wherever fine or even mediocre books are sold. Alternatively, the first nine episodes of this podcast also cover some of our most widely used and shared communication tools. You can check those out there.
Emily: Now, if I recall correctly, I definitely have known asexual people in my life, but aromantic is a slightly different term that I was less familiar with, and I don't know if I have ever met anyone or come across anyone who I intimately know who would call themselves aromantic. How about the two of you?
Dedeker: It's a little hard to sort out because now that I've been in this community for so long, you come across it. I think I have plenty of acquaintances or maybe listeners of the show or clients that I've met who identify as aromantic, but I do have one person in my personal life that I know who did confide in me. I say the word confide because I think he was trying to figure it out and was coming to me specifically because he knew I was involved in this community and had some suspicions that he might be aromantic. I think I can only count that person as someone that I know personally who identifies that way.
Jase: I think I'm in a similar boat to you guys where it's that, yes, there's people that I know online, people that I interact with quite often, but not any of my close friends who I really have intimate close conversations with about it. I'd say that's about where I am there.
Emily: I was curious to talk about this today just because, first of all, somebody came to us and asked us to do an episode on this. Thank you to that person who wrote us about this. Also, I found in the research that there's a lot of stigma involved with aromanticism, especially when someone realizes that they are and then comes to their partner with that knowledge and says, "Hey, I actually feel as though I'm aromantic. Is that going to change our relationship?" I think for a lot of people it does. Therefore, sometimes they feel like they can't get into another relationship in the same way or there has to be specific stipulations and that may be better or worse for relationships in the future.
It's really interesting. I think there are a lot of common misconceptions that we're going to get into today and I'm just interested to have this discussion on this with you. Hopefully in the future we can get some guests on the show who know even more about this subject and we can continue the discussion in the future too. I think also as the definition of relationships and what it means to be in a relationship continues to form and change over time, this idea that romance being involved in relationships is the only way or the best way to do things, that I think will continue to evolve and change as well.
Bringing something like aromanticism to the forefront of an episode or educate people on it can hopefully show that a lot of people out there can have relationships that maybe look different than the ones that they're taught they should have as they're growing up and that that's totally okay. That things like queer platonic partnerships, for instance, or friendships that act as life partners, any number of things along those lines, chosen family, can still be extremely beneficial and meaningful in a person's life, even if it's not a romantic partnership that ends up with kids and marriage and things along those lines. I just love the idea of bringing something like this more to the forefront because our definition of relationships in general is changing.
Dedeker: Yes, it sounds like even if you're listening to this and maybe you don't feel like you define yourself as aromantic or you don't think that you land on that particular spectrum, maybe we could all take a page from that book in questioning the ways that we maybe overvalue romantic relationships and romantic feelings.
Jase: Let's get into some definitions to get us started here. Let's start with the very basics, which is just aromantic. What does it mean? This comes from the Latin root a, meaning away from or off of, and then romantic, meaning romantic. It's spelled basically just--
Dedeker: Off the Romans, I believe, is what you're speaking of.
Emily: That makes sense.
Jase: Yes, if we want to go way back in the etymology of it, yes. We're saying here that it's just not romantic. What this means as a definition is it describes people who do not experience romantic attraction to anyone. It's not about their gender or about their presentation or anything like that, but just that this person does not experience romantic attraction. It's sometimes abbreviated as aro or A-R-O. And this is the A in the LGBTQIA is asexual, but also aro. The A is all of the A, all of the not off of, away from prefixed words like that. Asexual, aromantic, agender and the exact prevalence of it is not very well known, but according to an article on verywellmind.com, one study suggests that around 1% of people identify as asexual, and then around 25% of those also identify as aromantic.
Dedeker: Boy, I hope someday there's a Sesame Street episode where they handle these things, because that episode can be sponsored by the letter A.
Emily: Oh, I love that.
Jase: Oh, shoot, you're right. That's great.
Emily: It'd be perfect.
Jase: Perfect. Sesame Street, if you're listening.
Dedeker: Whenever you're ready for the aromantic episode, Sesame Street, call us. We'll help you out.
Jase: Just to confuse things a little bit further, we have another a word which is the opposite of this, which is alloromanticism. We've talked about this before in terms of allosexual, meaning someone who is sexual or someone who is romantic, who does experience romantic attraction. Aromanticism is the opposite of alloromanticism, and that is confusing because they both start with A. I guess Sesame Street could cover that on the episode too.
Dedeker: Already these definitions beg the question of what is romance? What is romantic partnership? What is romantic attraction? What we're going to be loosely working with for this episode is defining romantic attraction as a desire to have emotional contact and interaction with a partner. This is very, very broad. It's important to note that romantic attraction and what a romantic relationship means to one individual can be very different from another. Of course, on this show, we discuss a lot of different types of romantic relationships and also the specifics of what those relationships may or may not entail and how they can be very individual, highly personalized.
The same is true for people who are in romantic relationships as well. Just bear in mind, again, labels and language are shifty and they're wiggly and they're wobbly and can be hard to pin down concepts, but we're working with what we got here. We're trying to work with the tools that we have in the box. Something to clarify is that these things fall in a spectrum and so people can sometimes conflate aromanticism with asexuality. Sometimes the two do overlap for some people, but often they don't overlap at all. There are people who are aromantic who want to have sex, and there are people who are asexual who want to engage in romantic relationships.
They'd fall under the umbrella of asexual spectrum identities, but they're not the same thing. If we want to get even more granular here, there's so many things and so many identities, all these little pockets and subsets and subcultures and sub labels beneath this. We're going to go over maybe some of the more common ones that get tossed around in these spaces, giving our usual caveat about labels, which is that a label to one person can feel unnecessary and restrictive and maybe even arbitrary, but that same label to somebody else can feel really freeing and really exciting that they found a word to apply to the way that they've always felt their entire life. To that end, some terms that you may have encountered online include things like gray romantic or gray sexual.
These terms refer to people who fall somewhere in the middle of aromantic and romantic or somewhere in the middle of asexual and sexual, so they may experience some romantic feelings or some sexual feelings, but perhaps only under certain conditions, which again can be highly individual. Another common one related to this is demiromantic or demisexual, and these terms refer to people who only experience romantic feelings or sexual feelings with someone else after they have formed an emotional bond. This is one I want to clarify because--
Emily: It's common. I feel--
Dedeker: It's really common. I think that some people confuse demiromanticism or demisexuality with having standards. Sometimes those lines get a little blurry and the people that I've spoken to who identify as demisexual in particular have really clarified no, it's not, oh, I'll feel comfortable to have sex with you once I know you better. It's like, I literally don't experience sexual attraction until I know you a little bit better. Which is different. There's a slight nuance there. There's also lithromantic or akoiromantic, which refers to people who may feel romantic feelings, but they don't want those feelings to be returned. As in, if the romantic feelings are reciprocated, then the attraction fades.
Emily: That's almost like we're reading a book perhaps, but then that book's character isn't going to have attraction for you unless there's some spell being placed upon the book's characters or something.
Dedeker: We're getting real-
Jase: Wow. Really.
Dedeker: -outer space here.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: I think the important thing to take away here is that it's about that desire though, or sometimes people need to learn that about themselves. This is something that I have heard in some discussions amongst people who identify as lithromantic, where they do bring up fictional characters actually as an example of I like that I get to have this relationship with no risk-
Emily: exactly.
Jase: -of ever feeling this back to me. You bring up a good point with the book there.
Dedeker: Somewhat related is recipromantic or reciprosexual, which refers to people who only experience a romantic or sexual attraction if they know that the other person also feels the same way. I don't know if it's a perfect opposite of with lithromantic, but sort of on the opposite end of the spectrum there we have quoiromantic. I do have a client or two who identify as quoiromantic. That's someone who either struggles with or doesn't have the ability to differentiate between romantic and platonic attraction.
Emily: That one's really interesting to me because is it a question of somebody just sees the two as being potentially equally meaningful in their life? That almost goes more to a relationship anarchy type thought that if you were a relationship anarchist, it would also be very helpful to be quoiromantic, because you wouldn't necessarily place one upon a higher pedestal than the other, for instance.
Dedeker: Yes. The two clients I'm thinking of, one of them is more like that, like what you described, Emily, and then the other client I believe shared with me it's more of they knew that they wanted closeness and intimacy and playfulness in their relationships with other people. It felt like both platonic connections and romantic connections could be a pathway to that, and so it was hard for them to distinguish. I think we have so many unspoken rules in our culture about which pathway you're on with somebody and a lot of unspoken cues around that.
Jase: Like the friend zone and stuff like that.
Dedeker: Yes. Is it heading to the friend zone or is it going to be just a fuck buddy or is it going to be the love of your life? Nobody's really necessarily expressing these things very directly and deliberately, and so quite understandably for many people that can be confusing or unclear.
Jase: Just as a little side note, I thought this was pronounced kwahromantic instead of koiromantic-
Dedeker: It probably is.
Jase: -because it's based on the French word "quoi," that means what? So, it's what romantic meaning what is this?
Emily: Because you also said akoiromantic and that "koi" is spelled differently than this "quoi."
Jase: That's a good point. So, akoiromantic is A-K-O-I romantic and that's the same as lithromantic, which is feeling romantic attraction to someone but not wanting it reciprocated, and this is quoi romantic Q-U-O-I romantic like the French word. I don't know. I'm sure people say it all sorts of different ways.
Emily: Our French listeners please tell us which one it is.
Jase: Well, and also I see people misspell a lot of these, because I will say whoever came up with these words, I think you could have done a better job of making these words more accessible-
Emily:
Jase: -because they're very much like words that were come up with by linguistic nerds, and I love that. I love that personally, but it makes them very difficult to learn and to share with people like akoiromantic I see all the time is akioromantic online, just because that prefix doesn't mean anything to most people. Just a little note to you out there. If you're coming up with new words for things, try to make them something people can spell and say.
Emily: While we're on the subject of definitions, one that came up a lot while I was researching this episode, asking our Facebook and Discord groups about being aromantic or knowing people who are aromantic, and they brought up the term "amatonormativity." I'm going to read something from our book. This is something that we discussed a little bit in our book, and so I'm reading directly from that.
"Amatonormativity was coined by Dr. Elizabeth Brake to describe the societal pressure to pursue a romantic, sexual, long-term monogamous relationship, especially marriage and the assumption that everyone wants the same thing. In her writing, she uses the term to point out how this assumption minimizes and invalidates people who don't fit that one mold such as asexual, aromantic or non-monogamous people, and causes us to treat single people as incomplete and somehow lacking. A similar term 'mononormative' is used for the assumption that monogamous relationships are the only valid or worthwhile relationships, and that anyone who isn't in one should be seeking to enter one."
Something for us to think about I think that's one of the big takeaways from this episode is just reminding ourselves that we are told over and over again that this is the way in which relationships should happen, this is what we should be seeking, this is what matters, and that if you don't have this, you also don't necessarily matter as much as people who have this or who are seeking it do. I think that's a cultural paradigm that I hope all of us can shift away from ultimately, because it is really hurtful and harmful to a lot of people.
Jase: We talk a lot on this show about that when it comes to monogamy where there's a lot of people who feel like monogamy is a struggle or they wish there were another option, but they're just brought up thinking there is no other option. If you are bad at it or you don't really want it, something must be wrong with you, or, well, you won't ever really be happy until you can figure that out. I think that people who are asexual and aromantic get that even worse, because there's even more of that sense of if someone doesn't understand it and doesn't just accept, "Okay, this is a different way of being that I don't experience," people just dismiss it as, "Well, that can't be real. That can't be a thing."
That's why we see a lot of apparently asexual characters in movies in television whose happy ending is finally learning to be sexual or to be romantic or something like that, and that sucks, it's unfortunate. I think that it's complicated by something that does come up when people are talking about asexuality and aromanticism, is that sometimes people who are asexual or aromantic might feel those feelings. They might feel that a little bit.
The best analogy that I heard was, it's like if you are homosexual, but sometimes have just had like, "Oh, I actually think I might be a little bit attracted to that person of a different gender," and it's, well, that doesn't mean my identity's changed and it doesn't mean that overrides everything I've ever thought, and that's my new happy place, I'm here all the time, but just I experienced that because we're humans and we have complicated neurons in our brains that can feel all sorts of things. I think it complicates it because if someone admits, "Well, I felt a little bit of sexual or romantic feelings at one point," someone goes, "Aha, you've got to figure out how to cultivate that and find that and get back to that place. We're hoping to dispel some of that notion in this episode.
Dedeker: I wanted to highlight a slightly different flavor of that stigma because I'm thinking about when my friend was talking to me about these feelings that he had where so much of the struggle was him learning over the course of his life this is not just about, oh, I just need to find the right partner and then I'll feel this way, and it's not just about it needs to be the right time, and then I'll feel this way. Then I just need to "feel ready for a romantic relationship." No, this is a more consistent thing. I think because he was a man, there's that particular layer of, oh, everyone's going to think I'm just a fuckboy who doesn't want to commit and just wants to have sex.
I never dated this friend, so I don't know how he is necessarily as a partner, or never had sex with him or whatever, but from what I knew of him as a friend, he was kind to his partners, he was respectful of his partners, he seemed to be a reasonably good communicator. I never got the vibes of just hitting and quit it style fuckboy. I know for him that that's just an extra level of burden in interacting with people. There's always going to be that assumption.
Jase: I think there's also a stigma that can come up, and I think this is related to what Emily brought up before about if someone realizes this about themself and shares it with a partner, that that might not be received well, is this idea that if I am aromantic, it means I don't love you and that love and romance are different in this sense. The conversation about what is romance, honestly, could probably be a whole episode in its own. We'll probably delve a little bit more into that in this episode, but that's a complicated thing even just what does romance really mean? I think that comes up there too, this idea that, oh, so you just mean that you're cold-hearted and don't care about anybody, and that's not it either.
It's a very different feeling. We want to now bring a little human element into this. Emily reached out to our Discord and our Facebook groups asking people if they're aromantic or asexual, what do they wish people knew about this. We want to talk about some of the things that they brought up based on their own personal experiences of being that themselves or being in relationships with people who are aromantic. First, we want to take a quick break to talk about how you can help keep this show going, help keep this information coming to all of you all out there every week for free.
That is to just take a moment and listen to our ad break. If any of our sponsors sound interesting to you, check them out, it really does directly support us, or join our community. You can go to multiamory.com/join to get more information about that. Then, of course, you get to participate in awesome episodes like this as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. We're back. I'm going to start us off with the first piece of feedback that we got from our listeners about what they most would like people to understand about aromanticism.
This is a quote, "I'm not driven to find romantic connections and tend to want to foster close platonic ones instead. There's always been a thing for me where I didn't really understand much of the difference between platonic and romantic connections anyway, because I rarely experience what feels like romantic connection." I think that's an interesting one to look at from the point of view of if you don't experience this but everyone tells you everyone experiences this and everyone wants it, I can imagine there's a lot of confusion there about, am I feeling it? Is this it? I don't know, I don't understand how to differentiate these." I think it's great to see someone showing, I've had to figure this out over my life.
Emily: That's the quoiromantic distinction, correct? That spectrum identity is essentially what they're saying if they want to label themselves that way, but maybe they label themselves a different way, and that's totally fine too.
Dedeker: Another listener reached out and said, "I need emotionally intimate friendships that are mutually supportive to thrive. Sometimes that can be difficult to find in the social climate where I live. I've been lucky to find a group of amazing humans in the last year that really fulfill that need for me." I think this really speaks to the fact that sometimes all of us can suffer, even those of us who are alloromantic just by how our culture pushes us into making sure that your one romantic partner is the most important thing at all times and really devaluing friendships. These emotionally intimate, mutually supportive friendships as well, which is a real tragedy.
Emily: A real bummer.
Dedeker: It's a real bummer for all of us.
Emily: A lot of what all of this reminds me of is even if you are alloromantic, but don't want kids for example, I know the three of us are on that end of the spectrum, how those who do want kids will often still try to push you into this, you need to be doing this because that's the way that things are. I have a very good friend at home and every single time I talk to her, she's like, so when are you going to have kids? You're really getting old now? I'm like, I get it. She's a doctor, so she's like, why haven't you frozen your eggs yet? Why haven't you done X, Y, or Z? It's tough. There's a lot of things about me that are great that may not ever involve that, and I think that that's okay.
Anyone who's doing something outside of the norm, we see you and we are here for you, as we have said. Here's another one. "Aromanticism has had a lot of interplay with my gray-aceness as well and has had me thoroughly confused about myself in many ways." That makes a ton of sense again, because so many of us are told we need to be doing a thing that maybe we're just not willing to do or want to do or have any interest in, and that can be super confusing. I think it can also be confusing if maybe there was a time in your life where you were like, oh, I am going to date someone because I expect to develop feelings for them and if that never happens, that can be super confusing. I get it. A lot of this can be challenging.
Jase: Next one is, I think an important thing to cover is that aromanticism is a spectrum. I identify as quoiromantic, which to me, I experience as not really feeling a difference between platonic and romantic feelings. I don't necessarily consider myself aromantic because I like romantic attraction, but I can't really tell when, if that makes sense. I think that's a nice insight into why that label of quoiromantic would be interesting to people where it is, it's not that I don't feel this, I just don't always know if that's the feeling that I'm feeling because I feel these very strong platonic feelings and maybe I don't feel this other thing that I think people have described.
Which gets into the whole complication of describing emotions to other people, in general, is a really challenging thing to do because, do you really understand what I'm saying? I don't know. There's no real way for any of us to know that.
Dedeker: This person, they themselves don't identify as aromantic, but they're talking about their experience dating someone who does, "I dated an aro person and one thing I wish was better understood is that aro people don't necessarily experience less attachment and definitely aren't inherently insensitive, even though I think these are two stereotypes associated with aromanticism." We're going to do a deeper dive into some common misconceptions about being aromantic, but that totally makes sense. I think it's really easy for people to assume you just had your heart surgically removed and that's what it means to be aromantic.
Emily: I really liked this description of what aromanticism is to this person. They said aromanticism is a desire blank experience for me. I do love activities and definitely get attached to people. It's hard to express effectively how painful it is to watch a relationship fail, because I don't match a feeling in the other person. Not because I don't want to feel that way, but because I can't.
That I think is the really big distinction there between what so many of us probably want our relationships to look like and feel and that I have seen from discussions within our Patreon and Facebook and Discord groups that if that comes up throughout the course of a relationship that a partner is aromantic, it can be really challenging because the partnership may fail or it may just not last, or it may not continue. I get that and I think that's a really difficult part for a lot of people, is telling the first person or telling a partner, hey, this is not something that I'm probably going to reciprocate in terms of feelings in the way that you want me to.
Jase: One last quote is this one, "Biggest observation from dating an aro person is that she doesn't experience NRE in the same way that romantic people do, which I honestly think is a blessing sometimes. On the other hand, I can understand that someone could feel excluded by not experiencing NRE or wanting to experience it." I think that's just great to point out that there might be some advantages to this as well, and let's celebrate that too.
Emily: We have teased this a little bit, but I wanted to get into the discussion of what the term romance even means. A lot of people brought that up in our groups online, and they talked about the fact that many of them have friends who they love spending time with. Some of those people even engage in sex with their friends. Some of them build a life with their friends. If you're doing all of those things with a platonic person, what's the difference? What is romance? Is that some other subset of thing? Also, why are we as a society so obsessed with this notion that romantic relationships are the pinnacle of success in terms of where a relationship can go?
Dedeker: I think we already covered this, Emily, that romance is of the Romans, so it's all world dominion and vomitoriums.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: That's the difference, is you do those things in the romantic relationship, and you do much kinder things in your platonic relationships.
Jase: Goodness gracious.
Emily: Whoa.
Jase: Oh, boy. We also just watched Gladiator recently.
Dedeker: Yes, the Roman Empire is top of mind for me.
Emily: We're reading the Bible right now with the Romans in it as well.
Dedeker: Oh, gosh, you're right. The Roman Empire is trending with the Multiamory crew at the moment.
Emily: It is. That's true.
Dedeker: If I'm going to engage with this sincerely, there's a gooeyness to a romantic relationship there. That's what I say.
Emily: That's the word that keeps coming up for me too.
Jase: Really? Gooey?
Emily: Yes, gooey. We gooey. Like, "Oh," I don't know. When I looked on the non-monogamy subreddit or there were various subreddits that brought up aromantic relationships, they talked about the absence of gooeyness specifically.
Jase: Weird. I just don't know that I ever would have described it as gooeyness. I feel like gooeyness is what I feel about a puppy or a kitty or even just a very sweet moment that I see as gooeyness is how I would describe it. I don't think I've ever--
Emily: I have seen the two of you be gooey.
Jase: I would not describe it as gooey. That's gross.
Dedeker: Really? Really. Okay, hold on.
Emily: Oh, shit. Cat's out of the bag.
Dedeker: Actually, while we're here, while we've come around to me and Jase, actually, I do want to say that, Jase, sometimes I don't think that you're aromantic. I think you can be actually very romantic and very gooey with me and very lovey-dovey. There are some moments where I feel like you show this aromantic side, in the sense of sometimes other people's romantic relationships disgust you, or sometimes, even in a film where something romantic is going on, you're a little turned off. It is that funny thing where you've never acted that way towards me. It's never been like us being romantic together disgusts you or that you don't value that. I feel like there is something about the way you perceive the outside world, but you have these little sprinkles I think of some aromanticism. Does that feel like that tracks for your lived experience?
Jase: I feel like the whole foundation of my life is crumbling down around me to just wrap my head around it.
Emily: Oh, gosh.
Jase: No, I'm just kidding. Gosh, I've never thought of it that way, but I see what you're saying. I'm reading a novel right now where I was getting annoyed with how ooey gooey, the author is about her husband.
Dedeker: You mean the main character, not the author?
Jase: Yes. The character in it was being all ooey gooey I guess. Now I'm using it too. And I was just sharing how annoyed I was with this to you. I was very much getting back this blank stare of you were not relating to me at all. I was like, "Oh, no."
Emily: On the other hand of that, my mom does not engage in any romantic relationships anymore at all and hasn't for the majority of my life. Yet, she loves romantic films and romantic TV shows, and she feels like she gets her romance from that, and that means she doesn't need it in the other areas of her life. It is, again, so interesting how different we are and the two people who may call themselves romantics might associate that word and those feelings in two completely different ways.
Jase: Interesting. I think there's a lot more to explore here, but can I take us back to the original question of just what is romance at all?
Emily: Sure.
Jase: I do think that it's a tricky thing. Because people describe it as gooeyness, I guess, I've learned. I looked up some other definitions. People talk about excitement and mystery being associated with it, and also a remoteness from everyday life. This is separate from the rest of your life in some way. When I really think about what romance is, the thing that makes it really difficult is that I feel like those feelings or those descriptions can apply to other things than what I would think of as my romantic relationships that I've had, where I've had certain friendships or even mentorships that have a certain excitement and mystery and maybe a little fear of losing them involved.
Or maybe it's like, "Wow, I'm in this whole other world when I hang out with this person." I've had those experiences and I think in very ooey gooey ways, I guess, why am I saying it now, about friends or about people that I care about, but I would not describe that relationship as romantic. I think it's a really hard thing to actually pin down. It's like we all get this general, I don't know, overall sense of what people describe how they feel. I think a lot of those can show up in other ways in other places and other relationships. I think often the sexual aspect is one that shows up. There's a physical intimacy, whether that's sexual or not that often is associated with romantic versus platonic behaviors. Like you were saying, Emily, that's not always the case in how people actually go about their lives. Those things don't have to be limited to just romantic relationships.
Dedeker: A lot of this discussion also makes me think of chivalric, courtly, medieval love which was very much based on this idea of a knight who's in love with a lady who's already married, and so he can't necessarily have sex with her. He can just want her from afar and long for her. That's considered the super peak romantic type of love, which I do think that has influenced our modern day conceptions of what romantic love is or should be. That there's a certain amount of pining, longing, desiring.
Emily: You're talking about Richard Gere as Lancelot.
Dedeker: Richard Gere as Lancelot in that film.
Emily: First Knight.
Dedeker: In First Knight, another film that is trending among the Multiamory crew.
Emily: Always.
Dedeker: First Knight. Literally from Arthurian legend, there's a lot of that. I do think that has informed our modern day ideas of romance that there is this desire and longing and pining, and maybe it's not fulfilled, or maybe it is. That's part of it that I don't think we tend to associate with our platonic friendships.
Emily: Absolutely. I want us to continue having conversations around romance in general in later episodes, and maybe have a full episode on this subject. I do want to move on to some common misconceptions about being a romantic because there are a lot out there. We've discussed some of them, but we want to go over some more for you.
Jase: The first one is that aromatics can't be in partnerships or relationships. Aromantic people can in fact be in committed relationships, but generally they don't get crushes or feel the gooey or cuddly feelings of being in love or potentially even have much of a desire to kiss, hold hands or cuddle their partner. I do think this one brings up an interesting question. We saw that there is a lot of overlap between asexual and aromantic.
It does bring up an interesting question of what's sexual? Is a kiss or holding hands or cuddling a sexual type feeling and attraction or is that a romantic thing that's somehow different from sex even though it's also physical touch with this person? I think it really shows how there is this confusing overlap in terms of what is romantic, what is sexual, all of that. I do think it's worth noting, and we've had multiple people who we just quoted a second ago talk about how they're in relationships with aromantic people and there's great features to it.
Dedeker: Another misconception is that aromatic people are lonely or that they're loners. A lot of aromantic people simply have other types of relationships that fulfill them just as much as a romantic relationship might fulfill an alloromantic person. These can be close friendships, relationships with family members, queerplatonic partnerships. As we always try to get across on this show, the spectrum of fulfilling relationship is wide and diverse and there are many more options outside of just your typical cookie cutter romantic relationship.
Emily: Another common misconception is that aromantic people just haven't found the right person yet. Many of our listeners essentially stated that they just simply can't feel romantic attraction no matter who the person is. I read something in all of my research for this episode that said, it's like asking a cat to be a dog or a lesbian to be attracted to men. It's just that this idea that romantic partnerships aren't really something that they're interested in or have a need for at all. They get their needs for companionship met in a lot of other ways, like friendship or queerplatonic relationships or even relationships in general. They just may not look like romance does to a lot of other people.
Dedeker: Also, aromantic people are not necessarily repulsed by romance. I guess the way that maybe you sometimes are hard to chase.
Emily: Although they can be, but not necessarily.
Dedeker: Of course, some people may feel that, other people may just feel neutral about romance and romantic relationships. Other people may feel positive about it in the abstract and some people may still enjoy bits of romance in the movies they watch or the books that they read, but they simply don't feel the need to be romantic themselves. A really good metaphor that someone explained to me for this, actually, it was part of doing an orientation for the Center for Sex Positive Culture here in Seattle.
They were explaining that they really try to create a space that is also friendly for people on the A spectrum, which often begs the question from alloromantic and allosexual people being like, "Well, why would an asexual person want to go to a play party or a sex party?" or things like that. The metaphor that this person gave was that as an asexual person, it's like, "I don't like cake. I really don't care for cake, but I can enjoy looking at cakes. I can be at a party where someone's eating cake and be glad that they're eating cake, but I'm just not going to partake in it myself." Same thing with aromanticism.
Jase: I also have had great times going to the pre-hangout before play parties and then leaving before the actual play starts where, maybe I was busy, I had something, I had to get up early the next morning or something, but I still had a great time and loved that. It doesn't always just have to be about the sex part of things.
Emily: We hope that you learned a lot on this episode. I know I learned a ton just from doing the research and talking to our listeners and we wanted to provide some takeaways and some ways that you can be an ally if you yourself are not aromantic, but maybe know people who are or just want to be a better ally in general to those who are. A fantastic resource I found is www.aromanticism.org and it's great for anyone who's dating an aromantic person or who wants to learn more. We are going to include that in our show notes. Specifically, there's a section on FAQ and there's a lot of resources and questions answered on that page.
Also, we have episodes that discuss some of what we talked about here today, specifically our Relationship Anarchy 101 episode, which is 150. That's so old, my goodness. Also, our Chosen Family episode, which is 307 and then 339, which is our Relationship Anarchy Smorgasbord episode. We talk a lot about the concept of queerplatonic partnerships on those episodes. That's something that was definitely brought up a ton in the literature about aromanticism.
Dedeker: Again, just realize that there's a lot of ways to have meaningful relationships. There's a lot of different forms that relationships can take. As far as how this translates to behavior, we recommend that you don't ask a bunch of intrusive questions about an aromantic or asexual person's relationship or sex life unless they have indicated to you that they want you to ask questions, that they're happy to share that with you. You don't got to know that. If it's a relationship where it wouldn't be appropriate for them to ask you a bunch of personal questions about your relationship and sex life, it's probably not appropriate for you to ask those questions of them.
Jase: Absolutely. That's always such a good benchmark of just, would you think it was normal for you to ask a bunch of questions about their sex life if you didn't know this thing about them? Usually, it's not. I'd say in most relationships that's not. Also, if someone tells you that they are aromantic, believe them. Do some research. Look up aromanticism.org, do some reading about it. You could maybe ask some clarifying questions again if appropriate for the relationship you have with this person but don't automatically assume that every aromantic person's experience is the same.
If you read one blog online, that must be exactly how this person feels and goes about their relationship. Also don't assume that, oh, this must be a phase, or they might be depressed, or they just haven't met the right person or all those things we've talked about before. That's related to if a friend or family member comes out to you as aromantic, ask them if there are any kinds of societal expectations that they don't want associated with them. I know that's almost never the question that family does ask when someone comes out about something because--
Emily: Or certain friends.
Jase: Right, that's exactly. Are there any expectations that you'd like me to make sure I'm not putting on you? What a concept. Ask them, have that conversation and also going back to believing them and respecting that, okay, they're sharing this with you because they care about you and because they want you to understand them better, not because they want you to fix them. Unless they ask for that, I guess, but it doesn't seem like that's what's happening here. Things like having kids, marriage, long-term relationships, et cetera, in general, ask them. Have a conversation of are these things you do want or don't you, and if you don't, I'm going to stop subtly implying that you should be doing those things sooner or that you're getting old or whatever Emily's friend said.
Emily: I am getting old, but it's fine. That's also okay. It's okay if you don't want kids. It's okay if you do. It's okay if you're young. It's okay if you're old. We touched on this a little bit during the episode, didn't get into it too much. There can be some challenges that occur if you have a partner who comes out to you as aromantic, you might question what does that look like for our relationship? Can we move forward? That's a time where something like the relationship anarchy smorgasbord might really be beneficial and come into practice in terms of asking each other, what is it that you want from this relationship?
What are the little things like I do want to cuddle with you or I don't. Or holding hands or sex or whatever, being cuddly or gooey in any way, is that, or is that not going to be a part of our relationship? Get really specific in terms of those things and the relationship anarchy smorgasbord can be a great way to figure that stuff out. Go back to our episode on that and then also you can look it up and google the actual smorgasbord itself and find which one you would like to do with your partner. I just wanted to finally shout out the What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life.
This is a Atlantic article that came out a few years ago and it's great. It's really beautiful and it discusses how these two women become platonic life partners. They basically were their entire lives and ended up living together and the men that came in and out of their lives were essentially secondary and their friendship was the forefront and the most important thing in their lives. It's just a nice reminder that that can be the case for people and that that's totally okay and it's really beautiful as well.
Dedeker: What we're going to leave you with here is we're going to read something written by Amanda Catherine. She runs the Live Your Fck Yes Life, both podcast and Instagram account. We highly recommend that you go check that out. She has interviewed us on the show before, a fantastic conversation. She made this post about platonic partnerships in particular and we just felt like it really fits the spirit of this particular episode. We've gotten permission to read it and here it is. This is titled No, my Platonic Partnerships aren't the same thing as friends.
"Apparently, that blows a significant portion of folks' minds, which I get. Let's talk about it. To me, partners are folks, I'm making a commitment to be a team with. Folks I center big life decisions around and are a collaborative part of the decision-making process. While I currently live alone, they're the people I would consider cohabitating with and being an active partnership with around household division of labor. I choose to spend important holidays and life events with them and their families and infuse them into my own family of origin. While I don't want kids myself, they're folks that if and when they do become parents, I would co-parent alongside of.
They also are all people that I have a very intimate and physical relationship with, platonic or otherwise. While I don't love the implied hierarchy that labels of any kind around relationships prescribe, they're the most accepted form of currency to help other folks and ourselves understand the nature of the relationship in question. Not to mention the reality of inherent hierarchy in life because we only have so much time and capacity to offer to others. I get that there will be many folks who don't understand that and I'm hopeful that those folks can read this with curiosity and an open heart.
I also know that I'm not alone in this. I've had many folks message me feeling so seen and validated in me sharing about platonic partnerships, so I'll keep sharing for all of you, and because visibility is important. A loving reminder that what works for anyone in their relationships doesn't impact me or you. Let people love how they love, relate how they relate, live how they live, be who they are."
Emily: Thank you so much to Amanda Katherine from Live Your Fck Yes Life for that, and thank you all for listening to this episode. We hope that you learned a lot. I feel like I learned a lot and it was just, again, a really great reminder that relationships can look so many different ways, and we should embrace all of those ways. If they don't hurt anyone, then just let people be who they are. We have a question for you this week that is going to be on our Instagram stories. It is, do your romantic relationships matter more to you than your platonic relationships? Why or why not?.