440 - We Have All Violated Consent - Listener Q&A with Kitty Stryker Pt 2
Q&A, cont.
Continuing our discussion with Kitty Stryker from last week, we have more listener questions to discuss!
For anyone who hasn’t heard part 1, Kitty Stryker, who has been working on defining and creating a consent culture for over 13 years, has defined and created consent culture through her writing, workshops, and website consentculture.com. She's the editor of "Ask: Building Consent Culture," author of "Ask Yourself: The Consent Culture Workbook," and is especially interested in bringing conversations about consent out of the bedroom into everyday life. In her copious free time, Kitty works as a street medic for direct actions, plays Dungeons and Dragons, volunteers at the local animal shelter, and cares for her two cats. She identifies as queer, asexual, sober, anarchist, and femme. She was last on Multiamory back in 2018.
The questions we address in this second half of our Q&A are:
"Do you have any thoughts on how we as a culture and society help educate folks on the idea of coercive consent and unconscious power dynamics in life?" I ask this question in relation to the surge of unicorn hunters and how that relates to couples privileges in general. We often hear the sentiment, 'well if everyone is on board with this structure then it's fine and consensual', but what those folks seem to have a hard time grasping is the idea of coercive consent and unconscious power dynamics. How can we teach that how you relate to people affects their ability to consent in situations like unicorn hunting? I've tried examples like doctor/patient and professor/student but it doesn't resonate with the crowd. What other ways can we explain this nuance outside of the FRIES model to foster consent culture in non-monogamy?”
"What are some tools in coping with generalized anxiety in asking for what I want from a (prospective) sexual partner? I certainly have layers of pleasure shame and more so find myself overanalyzing the explicitness that's appropriate for flirting or just open conversation around desires, turn ons, curiosities. I'm demisexual and shamefully use the label 'late bloomer' to describe my sexual history and experience, thus I'm rarely confident that I'm using the 'right' language and often clam up as a protection mechanism. Is the answer to actually just say the thing and risk the awkwardness of 'doing it wrong' or my desires being exposed as abnormal? Any strategies to build confidence when speaking to desire and an internal assuredness that the desire itself is valid and okay?”
“I’m 41 and have been in monogamous relationships for my whole adult life. I ended my latest relationship a few months ago and am looking into non-monogamous relationships and, quite honestly, some attachment-free hookups. When arranging meetups with people met online, how should I approach consent and discussing what I’m willing to do ahead of time, so there aren’t as many shocks or awkward moments, without coming off as rigid or unwilling to try things once comfortable?”
"I have found a way to navigate situational mutism (something that stems from my autism) during sex (via non-verbal 'safe words'), but it was really challenging to get there. It feels like there is a lot of shame/mistrust aimed at people who 'cannot say no' with the current consent paradigm, which definitely contributed to me trying to 'should' myself toward verbal communication in those moments. I thought ‘If I just said 'no', they would stop. I know they hold consent as a value, so if I just speak up...’ But some people told me that they couldn't trust me and my consent if I couldn't give them that 'in the moment' yes v. no. The current model of ‘I can't trust you if you can't say no' seems to not account for realities like trauma histories or being people pleasers. So...how do others handle that?”
"My nesting partner and I both have very different needs when it comes to information shared before or after the other person goes on a date. I find myself feeling more secure and less jealous after hearing about my partner's date, and they love having the space to share about their other relationships and process them together. However, my partner wants little to no details about my dates but also experiences a lot of jealousy and insecurity about me seeing other people. I want to respect their boundaries but, and it feels ugly to say, I find myself getting resentful that I am providing the space for them to process their dates when they can't provide that for me. Their insecurity and jealousy is something they are working on with their therapist as well as something we are working on together in couples therapy. But I crave the space to freely express enjoyment and joy about my other relationships to someone as well, and ideally with my nesting partner. How do you stop yourself from feeling negatively about things you provide for your partner that they struggle to/can't provide for you?”
Find more about Kitty on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Patreon!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're continuing our conversation with Kitty Stryker about consent questions from you, our audience. These were specifically questions that were asked by our supporters. If you have a question you would like to ask in the future, become one of our supporters. You can go to multiamory.com/join and learn about how to do that there. Just to tell you again, in case you're just joining us for this second episode, Kitty Stryker, our fabulous guest, has been working on defining and creating a consent culture for over 13 years, through her writing, workshops, and website consentculture.com.
She's the editor of Ask: Building Consent Culture, the author of Ask Yourself: The Consent Culture Workbook, and is especially interested in bringing conversations about consent out of the bedroom and into everyday life. If you would also like to learn more about our fundamental communication tools that get referenced in some of these question and answers, you can check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book, or wherever fine books are sold. Also, check out the first nine episodes of our podcast where we go over some of our most widely used, and shared communication tools.
Emily: Alrighty, so let's continue on with the next question. First and foremost, Kitty, you're fabulous. Thank you so much for taking questions, and also for pioneering the idea of consent culture.
Kitty: Oh, shucks.
Emily: Amazing. Do you have any thoughts on how we as a culture and society help educate folks on the idea of coercive consent and unconscious power dynamics in life? I ask this question in relation to the surge of unicorn hunters, and how that relates to couple's privileges in general. We often hear the sentiment, "Well, if everyone is on board with the structure then it's fine and consensual." What those folks seem to have a hard time grasping is the idea of coercive consent and unconscious power dynamics.
How can we teach that how you relate to people affect their ability to consent in situations like unicorn hunting? I've tried examples like doctor/patient and professor/student, but it doesn't resonate with the crowd. What other ways can we explain this nuance outside of the FRIES model to foster consent culture in non-monogamy? Sincerely, how you relate to people affects their ability to consent
Kitty: That's such a big question. First of all, you should make them all buy my workbook.
Emily: I know. First things first.
Kitty: I have several questions specifically about power dynamics in society, and how that can impact our understanding of consent, and how comfortable someone else feels they can say no to us, or vice versa. How comfortable we feel saying no to somebody else. First of all, I think that not everybody wants to understand this.
Emily: For sure.
Kitty: I think that is its own problem, and a little bit harder to address. In order to really understand this to be true, we have to then take some responsibility about it. It's much easier to not do that. It is not as ethical, certainly, but it is easier. I think that that is a big unfortunate aspect to this, is that same with conversations about privilege, and about passing, and all of these things. That it's easier for a lot of people who have the power to just choose not to understand. I even say it's hard when you are the marginalized person, or the person with less power in those situations.
When you start to realize that your consent has been made more difficult by your marginalization in society, and that's something you don't always have control over. I think that is extremely upsetting, and destabilizing in a lot of ways. I think that a lot of people choose to push that away because it can be hard to navigate in the world when you're aware of all of these things. It's very much that the actual definition of heretical, not what they've made it into, but there is that sense of like, "I can't go back now. I know this, and I can't not know this." Eating of the tree of knowledge, et cetera, et cetera.
I guess one of the things that's been important for me is to recognize that it is hard for people to sit with this stuff. I try not to resent them for that, even though this stuff hunts my dreams, because I do understand. I have to acknowledge, it's really rocked my shit, and I am more stable around this stuff than a lot of folks, and it's still totally rocked my shit. I think that's important to recognize, and to be gentle with yourself, and to be gentle with those around you to a point. However, with any kind of privilege, just because you don't want to learn about it, doesn't mean it doesn't still exist. It doesn't mean it doesn't still influence people. It doesn't mean that ignoring it doesn't hurt people directly. What to do with that? I would say, my first advice is, get new friends.
Kitty: It's really hard to get people to engage with this when they're not ready to. It's almost like trying to explain to an addict that their addiction is harming them. If they're not ready, they're not ready. You're just going to drive yourself crazy trying to get them to be ready. Now, that isn't always practical. You can't just go and make new friends necessarily. I think figure out what your limits are, and what your boundaries are, and then stick to those. Like I've said in the first half of this, it's really important, I think, to recognize what your consent is, and that you have control over your decisions, and your environment.
You can decide that you do not wish to have that interaction. You get to have boundaries. Now, add a caveat to that, that sometimes, most of the time, you get to do that. Sometimes, you're in a family that you can't just opt out of. Or sometimes, you're at a workplace that you can't ignore your boss, or your co-worker. Or you're a student, and you can't just disengage from your professor. There's ways of which it becomes more complicated. Sometimes, the better thing to do is to enlist help. Sometimes, disengaging is best. Sometimes, going to therapy, so that you could just rant at somebody about how frustrated you are, so that you get that validation, and you get to express it, while still biting your tongue when you have to. Sometimes, that's the best thing. It's really hard to say, it's up to you what works.
Jase: This question, what we read was a paraphrase of the actual question because it was very long. One thing I did want to clarify is that the question asker initially asked this as thoughts on how we as a culture and society, can help educate people here. I do think that this question of educating a particular person as this were someone in your community, or a friend, or something, it also brings up a little bit of the question for me of-- As we've talked about consent is tricky, and depends a lot on the situation, and who's in it. When it comes to something like unicorn hunting, which is
something that we've talked about since basically the beginning of this show as this is potentially problematic.
However, over the years, lots of people who are unicorns have really spoken out in defense of that dynamic saying, "Yes, what you're saying is true, but it's not always that, and for you to then put that on all of us that sucks, too." I guess that's just a question that comes up for me is a little bit of this, where's the difference between culturally acknowledging these things and educating our communities versus when is it I'm trying to put my values on someone else that isn't necessarily just a consent question?
Kitty: I like to speak to what my experience is. I think that by making it about me, I am then saying, "This is my bias, this is how I see the world and you do not have to agree with me." I have been in unicorn-hunting-type relationships as the unicorn, and it's been a blast. A lot of the reason why it's been a blast is because I have felt like I could leave at any time. I had the ultimate-- they knew they were lucky to have me, and so I had a lot of power there in those relationships. That made it feel really comfortable for me. When I felt that power dynamic shift I left. I was also younger, and much more precocious in many ways.
I think that now I'm just more tired, I've more of a tendency if I'm in a relationship, I'm just like, "This is fine. It'll do, whatever." Which is part of why I'm not dating right now is I need to break myself of that habit. I think we can only speak for ourselves. I think that maybe the thing to do is to educate, here are some ways that could be better. Here's some more positive ways to give people an out, so that you know they're opting in. I like to use the phrase, "If I can't say no, my yes doesn't mean anything." I think a lot about giving people the opportunity to say no and then rewarding them for saying no, by being really upbeat and happy about it because to me, when someone says, no, to me that is a signal of trust.
They trust that I am not going to violate their consent. They trust that I care about their no, that I'm not going to punish them for it. That's really, really important. By modeling that I am then impacting the community. I'm creating a ripple effect where people see that work and are like, "Wow, this person seems really happy when they have these interactions." Kitty doesn't seem devastated when she hears, "No, I want that for myself, how do I do that?" Maybe it's my anarchist roots, but that has been so much more effective for me as an educator than telling people what to do.
Jase: That's really fresh and profound. That's exactly .
Kitty: I just show people and if they want what I have, then they figure out how to mimic it. I think that, in general, I would like to see education of community for all things be more that, be more of being the change you want to see in the world because I think that that has more of a long-standing effect. It does self -filter. You find that the people who are doing these things in a predatory way tend to drift away when you're super accountable because that becomes really obvious. If everybody is being very vulnerable and having these conversations about consent, and negotiation, and no, and yes, and complicated feelings about coercion, and self-coercion, and society pressures, and all of these things.
Well, if you're the person who's like, "No, I don't feel any of those things." Everyone's going to be really suspicious of you. You become so suss by doing that. I think it sorts the wheat from the chaff by itself.
Emily: I feel like I know people recently who are on two sides of this. I have a good friend who just got divorced, and he's like, "I really want to be the unicorn, the third in a situation with a couple that's established." I love that idea, especially, getting back out there after being in a really long-term relationship with one person for a while. That sounds like a great thing. Then I have a co-worker who is just entering non-monogamy for the first time through the lens of, we're a couple but is looking for a third." In that way, I'm like, "Some of the stuff that you're relaying to me sounds a little suss," like you just said, and a little bit like, "This maybe is not going to be done in the most ethical manner."
Now, I'm an educator too, but I don't want to just throw out unsolicited advice to this person, even though I do think these are the types of people, the monogamous-centric people who are coming at it from that lens that they're the ones that need the most help in that way. Whereas my other friend, he really seems like he understands what he's getting himself into. Not to say that feelings won't happen and that people might get upset about certain things that occur, that all is a possibility. Yes, this idea that, if somebody knows, "This is really what I want at this point in my life." I think that that's okay and that we don't need to tell them that that's not what they're actually going to want.
Kitty: I got to say, I feel like there is a gendered aspect to this. Again, it's not just a gender thing, there's also other marginalization that can come into play. If you're a person of color who's dating a White couple that's going to come up, that's absolutely going to come up. I think that there are situations where people will say that they want to have no hierarchy poly, but are enacting hierarchy poly because at the end of the day, there's only so many hours in the day. If you can only have a plus one to an event, you're probably going to go with a person that is your main couple person, or there's potentially going to be a big debate because you want to bring the new shiny.
I think you have to as somebody who loved being a third for a while, I had to understand that there was a certain level of me being a really cared-for pet, but also that I didn't weigh in on the mortgage. Which was frustrating in some ways, because it meant big decisions, I didn't really get as much of a say in our dynamic. Also, it meant that where there were big fights, I didn't have to show up. I could be like this, "That sounds hard. Good luck with that." I mean, with great power comes great responsibility, I guess, was something that I think helps people understand it a little bit more. I think encouraging communication helps a lot. I want to shout out Lola Phoenix's Anxious Person’s Guide to Non-Monogamy-
Emily: So great.
Kitty: -as being amazing. I really love Lola, because Lola kicks your ass. There's a lot of relationship advice books that are really filthy, and like, "Oh, you're just really in your heart." Lola's like, "Look, we're sorting this out, you're going to figure it out, you're going to figure out what you need. I'm going to be compassionate, but also, I'm not going to coddle you” in a way that I found extremely refreshing. I would definitely recommend that. I think that that helps a lot. I think that a lot of Lola's writing really made me understand where I had felt really frustrated about relationship dynamics. Where I felt like a partner was playing us against each other. Or I felt like, "Oh, I am the fat partner, and I don't get to go out to things with you." That is really upsetting because it makes me feel like I'm being hidden away.
Now, I understand more about those dynamics. Also, though, again, it comes back to me. You've got to do this work on yourself. You’ve got to know who you are, what you want, to what end. You want a third person in the relationship, you need to really be honest with yourself and say, "To what end? Do I want a sex toy in the closet who's a person? Do I want somebody to provide unpaid childcare?" Be honest with yourself. You might find that person who is super into that, and that is the thing that they want. If you're not being honest with yourself, you're not being honest with anybody else, and that's a problem.
Dedeker: It's so funny. I think that because I know a lot of polyamorous people who seem to take it on as their personal mission to have to eradicate all unicorn hunting in the world, or to educate all the unicorn hunters about how they're doing it wrong. While some of that has been good and has helped to move this conversation forward for many people, I have seen that backfire a little bit the same way that I've seen some of the non-hierarchy conversations backfire in the sense that people-- it's very important for us to talk about hierarchy versus non-hierarchy, so important for us to be aware of those things.
What that's translated to is people realizing, "Ooh, hierarchy equals bad, non-hierarchy equals good, so I better make sure that I say that I'm in a non-hierarchical
relationship, even if I haven't really done the work to even figure out, do I actually want that? Is that actually the relationship that I want? I think the same thing with unicorn hunting, where I think in the past few years, I've seen a lot of couples who are looking for a third who have gotten that message, "Ooh, unicorn hunting equals bad." We better make sure that we're very upfront of like, "We're going to respect you. You're going to be an equal partner. We're not going to expect all the unpaid childcare from you,” or whatever it is, when maybe that's not actually what they want. Maybe it is like, we want you to come over for a threesome and then leave, and we want to do that once a month, but that's come to be associated with, "Oh no, that's the bad version."
Kitty: See that was absolutely my jam. That was like, that is all I want. I don't want to deal with-
Emily: That just sounds great.
Kitty: -anybody's emotions at all because I was 22. I wanted to live my own life, show up once in a while, have fun, get fed dinner, and then fuck off. That was the dream. Now, I'm in a situation where I'm like, "Ooh, I could see myself living with a couple who needs some help with childcare here and there. Maybe I don't pay rent, but I get to do the gardening and the cooking, the things that I really like to do." In exchange, they financially support me and I have a room of my own or whatever. I would be super down for that now. I think that it's that question of being honest, and being honest even of the things that you think might sound really unappealing, and being understanding that yes, if you want unpaid child labor, you got to give something up.
What is that going to be? What are you giving in exchange? I don't necessarily believe that everything is a corporate dynamic in that way, but if I'm going to merge my company with yours, I would like to know that we are all getting better and bigger together, and not that you're just going to suck me dry, and then throw me out and fire all of my employees, which I guess would be my cats in this metaphor.
Dedeker: This is perfect actually because we got a question related to being honest in that way. That I think we can dovetail into pretty nicely here. This listener asks, what are some tools in coping with generalized anxiety and asking for what I want from a perspective sexual partner. I certainly have layers of pleasure shame, and more so find myself overanalyzing the explicitness that's appropriate for flirting or just open conversation around desires, turn-ons, curiosities. I am demisexual and I shamefully use the label late bloomer to describe my sexual history and experience.
Thus, I'm really confident that I'm using the right language and often clam up as a protection mechanism. Is the answer to actually just say the thing and risk the awkwardness of doing it wrong, are my desires being exposed as abnormal? Are there any strategies to build confidence when speaking to desire and building an internal assuredness that the desire itself is valid and okay? I think it aligns with the channel that we are about to go down.
Kitty: I'm generally of the opinion that it's better to just say the thing and be awkward. I feel though, I lean in really heavily into my awkwardness. That is a big part of, that's part of my charm is that I'm very awkward, and also extremely blunt. That is something that if that's your jam, then I appeal to you because that is how I exist. That said, I have also been on a lot of dates with people who have taken that aspect of myself to mean that I want to have an explicit phone sex level conversation on the first date before we've even gotten through an appetizer. That's not always ideal. I think it comes back to that question about investment and building investment in each other.
I think that when I was doing sex work, I remember I counseled a lot of people who wanted to bring their partner into their sexual fantasies and didn't know how. Oh, I had to tell so many people like, "Please do not put on the gim suit and surprise your wife, don't do it that way." That is not going to get you what you want. That is going to be deeply alarming because for her, she's probably seen that in relationship to serial killers. You got to think about context, and you've got to think about, "I like to present desires in a way that this is fun for me. Would this be fun for you? What do you think about this? What is something that you've done that you've found really enjoyable?" Rather than taking these opportunities to be like, "Here's all my stuff, blah."
I try to tease out from them some stuff and then say, "Oh, that's really interesting. I'm into this sort of thing." Like, "Oh, I'm not as into feet, but I'm really into boots." Then we can begin to build off of that in a way that's mutual. I think that generally works a lot better. I say all that because I know sometimes with awkwardness there is just this temptation to blurt out the biggest, scariest thing just to get it out of the way. I do think, especially if there's a power dynamic in place as well. If you are a man doing this to a woman, or if you are a White person doing this to a Black person or an Asian person or a cis person doing it to a trans person.
I just think that there are ways that that verges into fetishism in a way that is difficult. Being mindful of that and treating it as a conversation. I like to let them go first if they're willing, and if they're not willing, then I take the plunge and I say something vulnerable. I think of, "Well what's something that's not my deepest, wildest fantasy, but something that's a few stages above that." It is a risk. Sometimes you're going to say something and the other person's going to recoil, but they're also going to recoil when you bring it up in four dates. Maybe that's better, I don't know. It depends on how you date.
Some people are much more efficient about it than others. I think they're both valid strategies. Just be okay with somebody having different opinions than you. I think the more that you could build yourself up so that you can weather that, and if they say no, you're like, "Awesome. Thanks for taking care of yourself,” rather than going home and sobbing in your bathtub with all your clothes on, I think you'll have more confidence the more you do it. Also, it's not shameful to be a late bloomer. Some of the best lovers I had in my life started having sexual escapades into their 30s and 40s.
I know so many people who started exploring kink when they were in their 60s and are having a blast. I could say for myself, I started doing sexual stuff when I was like-- I did all of the kinks when I was in my 20s and now, I find all of it boring. It can have the opposite effect too. I would say try to be a little gentle with yourself on that. How exciting for you that you get to explore all of this stuff now and you're not completely jaded. That must be great.
Emily: I did want to throw out our radar framework simply because we talk about it a lot on the show, but it's also our little safe container for talking about maybe challenging subjects once a month with a partner. Now, if you're only a few dates into a relationship with a partner, maybe you're not going to start that, but if you have an established relationship to a degree, or it's new but you feel maybe it's going somewhere and you want to explore having a safe container to talk about these types of things. That takes the pressure off a bit.
You have a moment where you're like, "We're going to talk about this today. Let's actually have a time to reflect and discuss. This is something that maybe I would be interested in trying next time we have sex,” and then having an action point for “Let's try that once this month,” or whatever it is, and then coming back to it the next month and seeing if it worked or not. I like that idea because again, sometimes sex can be a challenging thing to speak about, and maybe it is for this person, and I think it is for a lot of people. Try to take the pressure off by having a predetermined time in which you do speak about it.
Kitty: Yes. I'd also actually just really quickly add onto that. Do that with your housemates too.
Emily: Sure.
Kitty: My housemate and I have used the radar strategy for us and it's been fantastic. We don't have arguments anymore because we have a planned discussion point. It was so cool when she brought it up to me because she didn't know that I knew you, that I was just like-
Jase: Oh, shit.
Dedeker: Not that.
Kitty: I think that's a really good example of how the more you practice these tools in all these other areas of your life, it's like any muscle, the more you exercise it, the stronger it gets, and it doesn't have to be a supercharged sexual situation. It can be, "Hey, I'd really like to be able to have oat milk in the morning and you keep drinking it all. Can we have a conversation about resources and when to replace things?” It can be something that small also.
Jase: Yes, I wanted to throw one more piece in to go back to what you were talking about of bringing something up, and building yourself up so you can weather someone's no, that this is something that, gosh, this was years ago now. I did a little workshop thing with some men where it was like, "We're going to meet every week for--" I think we did it for four weeks or six weeks, something like that.
We were talking about dating and one of the topics that was really important to me to bring up was making yourself easy to say no to.
It's this weird thing because in sales and in dating, there's a lot of talk about, no, but it's always in this forcing someone to say no so that you're sure you've gotten everything you possibly can from them before they say no like in a sales context. Or in a pickup artist content is like, "How can I somehow manipulate this person so that they're less likely to say no to me?" There's a whole lot of problems with all those, as you can imagine. Something that I was proposing to them and that we talked about was this idea of by making yourself easier to say no to, it was like you said, Kitty.
If someone says no to you, it means they trust you to a certain extent to not freak out at them, or try to guilt them or convince them or whatever when they said no to you. By making yourself or asking things in a way that makes no an easier answer to give, you're trying to one, establish that you are trustworthy, and then also if you know that they can say no to you, you can trust their yeses more. Something that was I didn't even realize this at the time, but that was a fun side effect of it, is that by putting things out there that way, it also makes the no’s hurt less because you gave it to them, you made that easier.
Just to throw that out there with this question in bringing up kinks or things that you wanted to try of having that no be really easy so they don't have to be as awkward and try to figure out how to say no to it can also make it hurt less. Just to throw that one in there too.
Dedeker: I also wanted to toss in just one of my favorite resources for this. I think we've shouted it out on the podcast before, but I love Mojo upgrade. If you just go to mojoupgrade.com, literally, what it is, is they've built this tool where it's like you take this little quiz, it presents you with a bunch of different sexual acts. Everything from very "Tame stuff," like a sensual massage up to much more explicit, much more hardcore stuff. Stuff that involves other people. Of course, there's a bottomless well of kink so it doesn't cover absolutely everything you could possibly do, but it covers some of the common stuff, including some of the "Maybe more weirder, less mainstream stuff." You and a partner fill it out separately and then it'll only show you where the two of you agree, where you both indicated, "Yes, we're both interested in this," so that if you are feeling a little ashamed or you're not sure that you're ready to tell this person when you're only four dates in that you're really into rim jobs or whatever it is, that you don't necessarily have to reveal that.
Now, as this tool, I think it's just a starting point. It's not a be all and end all, but I do think especially for when you're early in a relationship and you're just getting to know someone, if anything, it's also a really great tool that gets you talking about all the wide variety of sex acts and ways that people can pleasure each other, that that is out there. I really recommend that you can just go to mojoupgrade.com and it's totally free also.
Jase: Yes. It can be a lot of fun to start those conversations from there.
Kitty: I don't know if you all remember this is old internet stuff, but there was a really great video that had two college kids having a sexual negotiation and they called their lawyers in and the lawyers actually do the negotiation.
Dedeker: I remember that one.
Kitty: I would show that at workshops and people would be like, " That's ridiculous." I was like, "Honestly, I wish that was how it was." That'd be amazing. Again, even if you have, because I know that there's been apps where they were looking at stuff like that. That doesn't mean that just because you've negotiated that yes, in theory, it means that yes, in practice or right now but I always love the idea of just having your sex lawyer present.
Emily: I like it.
Kitty: That's my non-monogamy. I'm a Capricorn, what can I say?
Dedeker: Oh, well, it's okay. This podcast attracts a lot of process nerds and people who are really into the legalese of communication as it were. God, it makes it sound so unsexy.
Kitty: Oh, I don't know. I think it can't be super sexy. I would love to see us see that as more sexy and more fun. Again, I understand that I am a weird person in some ways in that I do have a tendency to have conversations of relationships as mergers and stuff because that's how my brain understands how these things work in a way of corporate responsibility. One of the questions that came up in the teen workbook that I was working on was, is consent sexy? I feel like that's such a complicated question because I don't think it has to be, but of course, it can be.
It's one of those things where I think our response to consent is sexy and then the argument, "No consent is mandatory." It can be both. It just doesn't have to be either. The way I explained it to the teens was, "Yes if your parents come into your room when you're not there, that's them violating your consent. That's not sexy or not sexy. That's not part of it at all.” That's just a completely separate thing. Things can be valid and important without necessarily having to be sexy but also, I think we should be more cool with that and more cool with flirting in those ways, and allowing it to be awkward and sexy at the same time, or uncomfortable and sexy at the same time.
Jase: I love that. We're going to go on to some more questions, but first, we're going to take a quick break to talk about some ways you can support this show. If you love having this content come to you and be able to share it with everyone out there for free every week, just please take a moment and listen to our sponsors and find ways to support this show. It really does directly support us being able to keep doing this and getting this out there in the world. We're back. Our next question here. Oh, this person has a sign-off. This is my favorite of the sign-offs for this week.
This one is, "I'm 41." Oh, me too. "I'm 41 and have been in monogamous relationships for my whole adult life. I ended my latest relationship a few months ago and I'm looking into non-monogamous relationships and quite honestly, some attachment-free hookups. When arranging meetups with people met online, how should I approach consent and discussing what I'm willing to do ahead of time so there aren't many shocks or awkward moments, but without coming off as rigid or unwilling to try things once I've become more comfortable." This is from Looking for action In Arizona.
Dedeker: Oh, that was wonderful. That's exactly the kind of sign-off that we've been looking for.
Jase: Yes. That's what we wanted.
Dedeker: I added some supplementary questions to attach to this question because there were many questions related to this. I feel like a piece of this is does consent always have to involve explicitly navigating upfront exactly what we want each and every time. Some people asking is there a more organic model. Is it ever okay to be like, "Let's feel it out? Is there ever a model where that can still be ethical?" I feel like there's some of that in this question too.
Kitty: It's so interesting because this is definitely a question I addressed a lot in the Teen Workbook and I wish I could go back to ask yourself and address it more in that because I realized, "Oh, yes. This is something." I'm like, "Great, I could talk to teens about this." I was like, "Actually, a lot of adults need help with this too. It's really hard." One of the things that I wanted to address with the teens and also just with everybody generally, there's a lot of consent that happens that is unspoken. There's a lot of body language around consent. I think people shy away from that because it's easy to be misinterpreted. One thing I didn't include in the book, because I tried to veer away from studies side note, a lot of the studies that have been done around consent negotiation tend to be very focused on heteronormative relationships.
Emily: Of course.
Kitty: Of course, and because of that, I feel like they come up with conclusions that can be easily misread as men are monsters. Men are waiting to rape you all the time. I don't think that that's true. I think that sometimes with scientific studies, we have to understand that somebody is paying them and they're paying them to find something in particular. That is an important thing to be aware of and wary of. Also, we always come to everything with our own bias. We tend to prove our own hypothesis. When this came up for the teens, I was like, "Oh, this is interesting because there is a study about this that showed that, and again, heterosexual heteronormative situation here.
I'm not saying that this is across the board or whatever. Anyway, this one college in heterosexual situations, they found that men had a tendency to read consent when they wanted consent to be there and that women were more likely to hesitate and ask for verbal consent in this particular study. Women had a tendency to be like, "I'm not sure, so I'm going to make sure." Men will be like "They didn't say no." That's a yes. Now, I don't think that that means necessarily anything manipulative or devious. I think that-- I can also say this is why I think it's important to acknowledge biases and studies. There have definitely been situations that I've been in where I was like "I'm not going to ask because in this situation, at this workplace, it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission and I'm going to do that. Is it 100% ethical? No, and I'm going to do it anyway."
I do wonder how much of that is a cultural norm in general. If this is true outside of sexual relationships as well, I do think that we reward people who attempt more that we make fun of people for not trying, for not taking their shot, or whatever. I think that you are going to see a little bit of these biases crop up and I don't know that that's necessarily indicative of a social norm. All that to say, that non-verbal consent is an incredibly important part of how we negotiate consent all the time. I would love to see us talk more as a society about what that looks like. That is one area where pickup artistry actually could have done something really cool.
Dedeker: All the things I could have done.
Kitty: I read second-wave feminists because not everything that they said is trash. Some of it is definitely trash. Some of it is 100% consent possible under a White supremacist patriarchy capitalist society. I think that's a very interesting thing to think about. The transphobia and the racism is bull shit. Same with the pickup artistry. They had some really interesting points about like, are they mirroring your body language? Are they leaning into you or leaning away? Are they meeting your-- are they giving good eye contact?
These are ways that you could tell if somebody is vibing with you. I wish that we taught that more often because I think that there are all these little ways that we communicate that if you're looking for it, you begin to notice that, for example, exciting little thing. I don't know if this is something that you all as a podcasting team do on purpose or if it's incidental, but I was noticing that when one of you wanted to speak, you would put your finger up.
We didn't have that conversation, but I started to recognize, "Oh, that means they have something to say. Okay, cool." That's an example of nonverbal consent of being open to noticing cues and being like "Oh, interesting." Yes, I think that there can be an organic way to have that happen, but you also have to know each other and you have to be comfortable being wrong. I think that it is riskier to rely on nonverbal consent as you get to know somebody better. It's a little bit easier. Yes, I think that that is absolutely a part of the dynamic.
Dedeker: It reminds me of some theory of language learning and language acquisition. There is this argument that if you're learning a new language, it's not just about learning the words and the grammar. You have to learn about the culture and the history as well. Maybe not, maybe you don't have to go get your PhD in this particular country's culture, but language is so built-in with culture and influenced by culture and vice versa, that you have to have some of that cultural knowledge in order to actually understand the language and understand which context is it okay for me to use this word or to use this particular grammar principle? That's what it makes me think of that we can put so much emphasis on. Yes, consent is just the word spoken. The yes or no is just the transaction.
Jase: Because we're trying to make it a contract. We're trying to make it right. is somehow, Yes.
Kitty: See capitalism sneaking in again.
Jase: Yes, there it is--
Dedeker: Yes. There is still like living, beating literal body underneath it that is also part of understanding this language. Then of course, you pointed out, Kitty, that this also changes depending on how well do I know this person's body language or not. How often do we actually check in even if I've been with them for 10 years, how often do I check in despite knowing their body language quite well. That it's requires both of those things.
Kitty: Yes. Our body language changes as we change. Nothing is static. I like to talk about consent culture as being a living document and that there's always, especially my understanding to it, is something that's always shifting and evolving in different ways. I pick up new little bits of information here and there and I wind it into the rest of the stuff that I know. I think that improv actually has probably been one of the best ways for me to train myself in understanding body language and learning how to have those kinds of conversations. Now granted, I do that because I like tabletop role-playing games.
I'm a very specific kind of nerd. I do think that that is an example of a way that you can begin to learn, "Oh, this person's about to say something, so I'm going to step back and let them take some space," or like "Oh, how do I-- yes and this." How do I-- yes, but this kink or whatever. How do I build off of it so that it's not shutting down conversation. It's like adding more information and more layers.
I also think that it can be really difficult when you are looking for casual sex to figure out how-- again, it's like that question we had before like how much to put out there and when-- I think you just got you try a lot of things to see what works best for you and for your environment. In the Bay Area, it feels like I know about my grocery store clerks' kinks. We're very open, too open some might say about these things. Honestly it's any of them.
I live in Berkeley, so it's very close to the surface here. If you are in, I don't know, like in Massachusetts, people are not going to be as upfront because it's just not that kind of culture. I think seeing what other people do and seeing what feels good to you and what is getting you the response that you are excited about. Yes, always letting people say no. I remember doing a workshop on nonverbal consent at a gay sex party and explaining to these guys like "Hey, if you're trying to negotiate a sexual situation, don't stand in front of a door. Let people get around you."
They were just like "Oh my God, I never thought about that." If I'm talking to someone in the bathroom and I'm physically in the way of them leaving the bathroom, they can't leave this conversation. They might have this non-verbal pressure to acquiesce in some way just so they can get out. It's just so interesting the ways that we just don't normally think about this stuff.
Jase: Gosh. Yes. I'm really glad you brought up the position and body language thing. That's also something that as men we see modeled really poorly in film and television. Just the body language and positioning in front of doorways and over someone and blocking them in is seen as sexy or romantic or whatever, and it's like-- sure if that's your vibe and everyone's into that, sure. In most situations, that's not where you should start. That's something you should be aware of. We're just not, we're not really socialized to be aware of it.
Dedeker: It's not something therapists are even aware of therapists who still see patients in office. That's something that was really valuable when I did my se training, was-- just being aware of that, first of all, there is power in literally just not putting yourself in between the client and the door as it is. Then second, so much power also in literally letting a client choose where they want to be in the room and negotiating that and navigating that. That's a little bit of a digression.
Kitty: Is it? I think that's absolutely,
Dedeker: There's not, it's not.
Kitty: Yes. I'm somebody, if I'm on a date with someone, I want to have my head facing the door because I want to see everything around me. I'm one of those people that wants to have my back to the wall. I've done a lot of protests and I've just got this paranoia at this point where I'm just like "All right, I have to see everything." Though I also wanted to say on that point that I have also, as someone here who has dated a lot of women, I have definitely experienced dating women who were actively upset with me for asking them or for being hesitant and not just ravishing them.
That was very frustrating as somebody who is learning about consent and being like "I don't want to be that kind of person. I don't want to create more of that in the world." I feel like that might be your thing today right now, but that feels like that's going to go badly at some point. I don't want that to be me. I think one thing that's really important to remember about that, you get to consent to your behavior. You can only control your behavior. If that is not something that's comfortable for you, you don't have to do it. If that is a risk that you're not willing to take, that is okay. That was hard to learn, that I wanted to make these women I was dating happy. I wanted to do the things that they wanted, but I was very uncomfortable with this, "Just keep trying stuff until I stop you."
I didn't feel okay with that. I bring that up because I also want to acknowledge that our culture does sexualize that for women. It does teach women, not just women, but often women, that sex is something that happens to us, and that we don't get to be active participants in it and the best we can do is shut it down when we're done, but we don't get to be an interactive part of that conversation.
Dedeker: We don't get to drive the car.
Kitty: We don't get to drive the car, right, exactly. I think that that is a part of that equation that's so hard because I think men are learning and being like "Shit, I don't want to be that person." But also I keep going on dates where women are like "Why didn't you just kiss me?" "Well, because I'm trying not to sexually assault you. What do you want?" I can see how that's frustrating for everyone involved. We know that people can't read our minds and also we want them to read our minds. Why can't both of those things be true?
Jase: We have one more question we wanted to get to. I just wanted to throw one last thing to bring this back to the question asker, talking about how much to talk about beforehand, in this situation, talking even like we're talking online, we haven't even met up in person yet. I would just throw out there all the stuff that Kitty is saying is great about this is something that continues to be negotiated, but also I could see how there'd be this urge to say, "Yes, let me be really clear about what I want to do and let's negotiate that beforehand." To feel like "Oh look, I'm being so proactive about consent."
The dark side of that is by talking about this beforehand, it can feel like to the other person, they've now committed to something that maybe, in the moment, they're not going to want to do, and they might feel like it's actually harder to say no to that then after the fact, or once they've agreed to it beforehand. I would say maybe don't stress so much about trying to be so meticulous about those things beforehand. Instead, like Kitty's been talking about, learn to get more comfortable with asking and receiving those nos and things there, and really developing that part of the communication. Does that seem fair to bring it back to the question, Kitty?
Kitty: I think that's really good. I do think it's helpful if you're like "I am looking for a casual sex situation. I might be open to renegotiating that down the line, but right now this is what I want." Take it one day at a time, I guess. I can understand why negotiate something like that. If you really want to have a rope bondage scene using teacher-student role play and that is what you are meeting up with this person for, I can understand you saying like "This is the purpose. Are you the person for this? Cool, or no." Just understand that that does create that-- there is a rigidity that happens when you plan ahead to that extent, which can be comforting, but can also make you feel entrapped.
Emily: There's a potential expectation.
Kitty: I recommend, if you're looking for casual situations, I really recommend get a hotel or something, have a neutral third space. I know that's not always financially feasible, but the more that you can make it possible for everyone to leave, the better. I think that that can feel a lot safer. I used to like to hook up at hot tub places. There were a couple of sleazy hot tub places where that is absolutely where people went to fuck in their afternoons. That was great because it was for one hour. I didn't have to use my real name. It wasn't a huge financial commitment. They cleaned it after every person, so it felt comfortable. That was perfect.
Dedeker: I'm so sorry, I've never heard of a hot tub place. Maybe there's really .
Jase: All of us are like "What are you talking about?"
Kitty: Oh. Oh, my God.
Dedeker: I'm like "A hot tub store?" .
Emily: I've been to one and it was awesome. I went to this hot tub .
Kitty: No, not the hot tub store. Don't fuck people in the hot tub store.
Emily: Oh my God.
Kitty: They don't like that.
Dedeker: Emily, you've been to a hot tub place?
Emily: Yes, Josh and I went to, it was like a tea room and kind of hot tub. It was very sort of Japanese actually. It was lovely. I'm sure there are sleazier ones than that one, but yes, I was naked with my partner. We had our own separate little hot tub area and we definitely could've had sex in there. They would knock on the door and be like "Do you want more tea?" We were like "Sure." Or you could say no. They exist.
Jase: Wow.
Emily: It's like your local listings.
Kitty: In the Bay Area, there's a lot of private room hot tub places because-
Emily: Yes, exactly.
Kitty: -there's places exactly that have hot tubs that you can go to but they're communal. Again, not ideal.
Emily: Not ideal.
Kitty: Don't bring your sexy stuff to that kind of hot tub place. There's a couple of places. There's a massage table that's definitely a bed, and at that point, you're like "Okay, I understand." This is where you hire a sex worker, which incidentally, is where I did a lot of my early sex work. I loved that because I had control there and so I could have that kind of hookup. I knew that there were workers there. If I had an emergency, there was an intercom, that was great. I didn't have to bring a bunch of cash or anything on me or identification. I could have that moment without having any of these anxieties about, what if I get robbed or whatever.
Because it was that neutral space, I didn't have to worry that I didn't know what I was getting into. Now again, I will say that probably sounds super paranoid. It is, in part because I was a sex worker for a long time, so you had to have that weariness about you. I also think it's really cool to have that neutral space so that you can dip in as much as you want and dip out. They don't know where you live. It creates a little bit more safety for it to just be a fun encounter until you trust each other more.
Dedeker: I've learned so much today, not just about hot tub places.
Emily: We all have.
Kitty: I wish that we had more spaces that were bathhouses, gay bathhouses. We don't even have that many gay bathhouses in the Bay anymore, but these kinds of spaces where it's okay for you to engage in sexual behavior with somebody that you've just met, where there's lots of people around so there is that sense of whatever happens will be witnessed. That feels really comfortable for me, probably not for everybody. I'm more of an exhibitionist, so that didn't bother me. I just liked that feeling of like "Okay, there's enough people around that if you try anything, I will be able to get away.
Dedeker: Like love hotel culture in Japan, they're freaking great. Even if it's not like "Oh, I just met this person to hook up." Someplace it's clean, quiet, reasonably priced, and where if there's an emergency, you're going to have access to someone or something, or you're not just stuck at somebody's house or having to pay out the nose for a really expensive hotel room. We have one last question that we want to get into today before we wrap up.
Emily: Here it is. "I have found a way to navigate situational mutism, something that stems from my autism during sex via nonverbal safe words, but it was really challenging to get there. It feels like there is a lot of shame/mistrust aimed at people who cannot say no with the current consent paradigm, which definitely contributed to me trying to shoot myself toward verbal communication in these moments.
I thought if I just say no, they would stop. I know they hold consent as a value, so if I speak up, but some people told me that they couldn't trust me and my consent if I couldn't give them that in the moment. Yes versus no. The current model of I can't trust you if you can't say no seems to not account for realities like trauma histories or being people pleasers. How do others handle that?"
I can see this one in my own life for sure as a people pleaser. It's really difficult sometimes when you're like "Yes, I didn't say no to you because I just didn't want to hurt you in the moment. I didn't want to make you feel little or bad." This is challenging with power dynamics, I think with women and men, and in a lot of other power dynamics as well, because we don't want to make someone feel bad. We don't want to say no to them when they really want to do something, even though maybe we should.
Kitty: They want to seem strong.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: I think you don't even have to have a trauma history necessarily. There are times in my life that I think of where I look back and I'm like "Wow, why did I say yes to that?" Whether it was sexual or work-related or anything, I was like "Why did I say yes to that?" It's like sometimes this decision-making, especially when it feels connected to your survival in some way, happens in the blink of a second. You don't even have a-- Our society doesn't really set us up to be like "Okay, they asked you if you do something, sit and feel that in your body," like before you tell your boss whether or not you're going to come in on, on a day that you're not supposed to come in.
Jase: It could be like a video game where it frees frames on that. Yes. No. You get to spend as long as you want.
Emily: I fucking do this. When I go up to the coffee counter and somebody's like "What do you want?" Like immediately and I'm like "Ha, ha, pick something," and I just pick something and then I look like as they're making the item for me and I'm like, fuck, I really would've actually liked that thing but I felt like it was an imposition to make them sit there for a second longer while I looked. That's how bad that shit is for me.
Kitty: I don't think that's rare at all. I remember one of the first things I did with consent culture back in 2011, I think, was I did a consent culture blog carnival. I think this was before like I was doing consent culture workshops, but I think it was still called Safe Ward. Moving towards safety. Ward, not word.
Jase: Oh, Safe Ward.
Kitty: Yes. I was trying to be way too clever. I learned very quickly to stop doing that the age of the internet, once you have to spell things out, it's too clever. My blog used to be called Purr Versatility. Like purr like a cat and I'd have to spell it out. I was like "This is a nightmare. Why did I do this." One of the things that I thought was really interesting was I asked dominance and submissives of all gender identities, what were some situations where they didn't say no and they wish that they had. I found that in general, most of the people at this time identified on a binary.
A lot of the men, whether submissive or dominant, didn't say no or didn't stop it because they wanted to seem cool or they wanted to seem strong. They wanted to seem capable. Women, whether they were dominant or submissive, wanted to please their partner. I was like "Oh God, no wonder this is so murky." Because this is like very much a gender training that we are subjected to and forced into.
Jase: I feel so called out right now by that explanation. Like, fuck. Yes, I never thought about it like that. That's so true. Shit.
Kitty: Well, I think that's really important. Because I think when I've seen this conversation come up a lot of times there is an understandable focus on women not feeling safe, saying no. I feel like I have encountered a lot of men not feeling comfortable or safe saying, no, not because they were afraid that I would overpower them or force them, but because they were afraid of how they'd feel about themselves. They were afraid that they would be disappointing themselves in some way or like they wouldn't be performing masculinity in this very specific way by saying, no.
Emily: Patriarchy fucks us all. My God.
Kitty: Fuck, men. What the fuck.
Dedeker: I wanted to jump on that just really quick. Gets so interesting you bring up the performance of masculinity because I've heard a lot of men who go to play party spaces or sex club spaces or swingers spaces saying that if a woman comes onto them or asks them to engage in some particular way and they are not interested, a part of performing masculinity is, well, men are assumed to be always down.
If I say no to this woman, even though I think she's great, and maybe even if I think she's attractive, she's going to feel hurt because I'm a man who's supposed to be always down for any type of sexual contact regardless. Okay. I'll just say yes. I just wanted to slip that in there because it feels like that's a part of the whole needing to perform a particular version of masculinity that gets in the way.
Kitty: Yes, absolutely. Well, and I remember I actually got into a huge fight with one of the BDSM writers that I had admired so much. We got into a huge fight online about this because she was like "Well if a submissive doesn't safe word, that's on them." I was like "Whoa okay, no, no, no, no. That is not okay." There are lots of reasons why someone might not say no in the moment because hey, just a little thing to keep in mind if you say no and the other person keeps going, at least for me, that is way more traumatic than if I don't say anything.
Because if I feel like I have control over the situation and I just chose not to do anything, that makes me feel more safe or more like I had control and any hurt that happened is on me rather than being like I didn't have control. That was outside of my control. I think that's a really hard thing to sit with but I think that's a really, really important thing to think about that, that is a reason why people don't say no because it feels less traumatic to have it be a misunderstanding. Even if it's a willful misunderstanding that you're participating in just because you don't want to deal with the consequences if it was forced.
Yes, I have a lot of problems with the idea that saying to somebody else that you have to be able to negotiate consent in this way that I approve of. Because again, you don't control other people. If the way that they negotiate consent isn't comfortable for you, that's okay. You can choose not to engage, but you can't tell them how to be. Kind of like how I say that thing about, if I can't say no, then my yes doesn't mean anything. That's about me and my ability to assess my options, my behavior. It's not about telling somebody else how to be. I can give people as many opportunities as possible, but I can't, at the end of the day, control what their consent looks like.
I shouldn't be able to because that wouldn't be consensual. It fundamentally ruins its own premise. I think that letting people know what your nonverbal safe words are, body language-related stuff, like I found that if I became really still, that was an indication to check in with me. There were certain red flags or maybe not even red flags, yellow flags. That's like, if you see these things, it's time to switch it up and maybe take a break to have some water or have a snack and we can continue afterwards. Let's just take it down a notch for a bit.
I think that that's super valid and I think that that's a way that you can, as a top in that situation, you can guide it in a way that you as a top don't feel like "Ah, I am not getting an active yes and so I feel uncomfortable." That's a way that you can reassure yourself. Because I think as a top, it's really scary when you aren't sure. Because there's a lot of accountability and responsibility in being a top. That's part of what makes it fun and also what makes it really scary. I like to create spaces for those little check-ins. Not so much to be like, tell me what you think and how you feel right now but more like just giving them space to engage in a way that's comfortable for them.
Like pulling back a little bit to see if they push into you or if they stay pulled back is like one of those ways to say, "Okay, maybe we do need a little bit space here." I think it's like a dance where you're trying to read each other.
Jase: I've seen some really skillful tops too who come up with very good ways of doing that without outbreaking the scene. The example that comes to mind is, this is going to sound silly out of context here, but you know this kind of like "Oh, you're so bad. I bet you deserve a spanking now, don't you?" Where it's like you're asking them a question, but you're doing it in character in a way and if they're like "Ah yes." Then you're like "Okay, no, this let's change directions."
Emily: Yes.
Kitty: I guess.
.
Jase: Yes. Right. Whereas if there's a like that excited, enthusiastic, oh no or yes or just like the attitude of it being that way gives you that sign.
Kitty: Oh no.
Jase: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly that. Yes. There's ways to do it as the top in that case that are more organic, that don't break the mood.
Kitty: I have a gross one. If you are someone, a eliciter who has issues with poo--
Jase: Skip ahead a few minutes. Yes.
Emily: Skip ahead. Yes,
Kitty: Skip ahead. I was doing a pro-doming session with somebody who claimed that they really, really wanted to eat their own poo. I was like "I don't think that's true." Maybe, but I'm not sure. I think a lot of people have fantasies about things that they've never actually encountered. Our bodies have a lot of like things in place that actively repulse this. Maybe, but also probably not. You probably don't want the thing that you are actively asking for. How do I, as a dominant, but also as a professional, create space for this?
I decided what I was going to do. I fingered his butt a little bit and then, and of course he hadn't prepared or anything, which makes me even more sure that he wasn't actually that into this. He hadn't thought this through. I was like "Oh, this is great." I pulled the glove off and I tie it very loosely and I have him hold it in his mouth while I give him a canning, and I say, "If you drop this glove, then I am going to make you eat what's inside," and that was the way for me to be like "I am in my position as a dom. I'm also giving you the opportunity to have the thing you want, but I'm pretty sure you don't want that." He held onto that glove like his life depended on it. He did not want that.
Emily: There was your answer.
Kitty: There was one of those situations where I was like, this is so gross that I can't share this with most people, but also, God, that was a stroke of genius to pat myself on the back a little bit-
Jase: Yes, well done.
Kitty: -because I was like, I'm not ethically against it. It's, it's all you, it's your stuff disease-wise, there's some risk, but not that many, but also I was just like "I'm really not sure that you want this thing that you say that you want," and it was a great way for me to be like "You can ramp this up, but that is a choice that you have to actively make here, not by asking for it, but by doing this behavior that then has this clear consequence."
In short, there are lots of ways to do that, for good or for evil, I suppose. Also, I felt much more comfortable with doing it in that way because I was not forcing him. I didn't want to force him to do this thing because I felt that it just got really complicated for me in terms of, "Is this really consensual or not?" It was a great way for us to have this consent dance indirectly. That was also a bit of a game of chicken.
Dedeker: Well, it's a great note to end on. It's funny-
Kitty: We got to go.
Dedeker: -because I literally wrote down in my notes, prompting you, Kitty, to be like, do you have anything to plug, and that question feels very different now. Do you have anything to plug and where can people find more of you and your work?
Kitty: Well, I am at kittystryker.com. You can find me on Facebook Officially Kitty Stryker. I'm at Meetup as Kitty Stryker. I'm on Instagram as kitty_stryker. I'm on Bluesky and Mastodon, pretty much most places, if you look for Kitty Stryker, you can see my Twitter archive at, @kitty Stryker. I don't think they've deleted my account. They just won't let me log in. I am generally pretty available. My email is on my website. If you want to send me an email, if you have a question, that's totally cool. I am very good at my boundaries and I will let you know exactly how much time I have to invest in answering your question.
Dedeker: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Kitty. This has been fantastic-
Kitty: Oh, I should grab the book.
Dedeker: -definitely go. Yes.
Kitty: Duh. Yes. I just wrote a workbook for teens that is going to be coming out in April. That's going to be called, Say More: The Consent Conversations for Teens. That'll be out through Thornton Apple Press, and then currently, you can get Ask Yourself: The Consent Culture Workbook that is also available from Thorn Apple Press or Amazon or all these thrift books, aid books, whatever. I'm going to be doing a series of consent conversations based off of questions from my book. Each week is going to be a different section. We'll have the internal introspective week, and then we'll do intimate relationships, then we'll do community, and then we'll go back to reflections. That's going to be starting through Firestorm Cooperative, online, and it starts September 10th at 11:00 AM, I believe Pacific. You could find out more information about that on Officially Kitty Stryker on Facebook, or through Firestorm Cooperative.
Jase: Is that something that people can join late if they're not there for the first few sessions?
Kitty: Oh, yes. Each session is going to be a separate conversation.
Jase: Perfect.
Kitty: I'm happy to run it if there is one other person there or if there's 50 people there.
Jase: Great.
Kitty: I am going to do it. As long as there is someone else to talk to about it, I will be there.
Jase: By the time this episode comes out, you'll already be a few weeks into it, I just wanted to let people know that they can still come and join for the last ones if they didn't make it to the first ones.
Kitty: Yes, and I'll be making sure that the questions are ones that you don't have to have prior knowledge. I'll be doing a little intro each time and then it's like a book club. We're just going to sit around and talk about one of the questions from Ask Yourself.
Jase: Awesome.