456 - F The Fairytale with Damona Hoffman
Welcome back, Damona!
We’re so happy to have Damona Hoffman back on the show! Damona is the Resident Love Expert of The Drew Barrymore Show and OkCupid's Official Dating Coach. Damona is the host of the long-running podcast Dates & Mates, which has just begun airing its 10th season. She is also an advice columnist for the LA Times and a writer on dating and relationships for the Washington Post. Damona can frequently be seen on Access Daily sharing the latest dating news.
During this episode, we discuss Damona’s upcoming book, F the Fairytale: Rewrite the Dating Myths and Live Your Own Love Story. Some of the topics Damona covers with us today are:
Your book is based around what you identify as 4 major myths that complicate the dating process and can hold us back from finding success. We’re gonna break down those myths shortly, but before we do, is there one single piece of bad dating advice out there that gets under your skin and you just wish would go away?
The relationship myths:
The List Myth: Having a rigid list of desired qualities that a partner must meet.The Rules Myth: Thinking there is a formula or game to winning at love.
The Chemistry Myth: Believing you need an immediate spark for a relationship to work.
The Soulmate Myth: Believing there is one perfect match out there for you.
You talk about the concept of “slow love,” or really taking your time to get to know someone in the early phases of dating. We’ve talked a lot about NRE on our show, and we’ve had a lot of listeners write into us asking about how to manage NRE, when to listen to those feelings vs when to be cautious. How do you recommend people pump the brakes and go slowly when they’re feeling that rush? How does one do that in a way that doesn’t feel arbitrary?
You talk about the importance of shared values over chasing chemistry - can you expand on that?
What is a “dating samskara?”
Right now, there’s a lot of pessimism (hetero-pessimism in particular) about dating. What do you think contributes to people having such a miserable time?
What’s your take on listing STI status on one’s dating profile?
Order your copy of Damona’s book here and be sure to check out her podcast as well if you haven’t already!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we are joined once again by Damona Hoffman, the resident love expert of the Drew Barrymore Show, OKCupid's official dating coach, a writer and fellow podcaster. Damona is the host of the award-winning podcast, Dates and Mates. We were on an episode of that titled Multiamory and Short King Spring. She is also an advice columnist for the LA Times and a writer on dating and relationships for the Washington Post. Today we will be talking about Damona's new upcoming book, F the Fairy Tale, rewriting the Dating Myths, and Live Your Own Love Story. Damona, thank you so much for joining us today.
Damona: It's so nice to be back with you. Thank you.
Dedeker: Now a weird question to start out with because I noticed that you chose to title the book F the Fairy Tale instead of doing, I think the other thing that writers do, which is like F*** the Fairy Tale. Was there a lot of discussion and grief about that when you were trying to make that decision about the title?
Damona: Well, I'll say you all have published a book and so you know that decisions are made by committee. That was just what we landed on, but there was a lot of discussion. Originally, it had a completely different title, but I really felt like this title captured the dating zeitgeist of the moment. That's what I hear on Dates and Mates. That's what I hear from people that are just so exhausted and frustrated by dating today. I wanted to really capture that feeling that a lot of people are having, but then also offer a more hopeful way to look at being able to move forward in dating and relationships.
Dedeker: Your book is based around what you identify as four major myths that can complicate the dating process and can hold us back from finding success. We're going to dive into those myths shortly, but before we do, is there one single piece of bad dating advice out there that gets under your skin and you just wish would go away?
Damona: I just hate the phrase, "Love will happen when you least expect it."
Dedeker: Interesting.
Damona: I've just proven that to be false so many times because I've been doing this, I've been coaching people for over 17 years. I've just seen that every time one of my clients puts the same focus towards finding the relationship that they want, that they do everything else that they're successful at, things work out. They're able to get their needs met. It doesn't really happen, this idea where it's just going to fall in your lap. I think that's a myth, and that's part of the fairytales. Look, I love a rom-com as much as the next girl, but I think they did us dirty, right?
They made us think that relationships were supposed to be one way or that it was supposed to happen a certain way. Then people get angry when I say, "Well, let's put a process around finding love." They're like, "No. Oh, that's not how it is in Drew Barrymore movies." Even Drew Barrymore agrees it's not the same.
Jase: That's so funny. I love that. It's funny, I was recently watching a rom-com with a friend of mine, and through the whole thing, I can't help myself. I'm commenting on, "Oh, that's not actually a very healthy way to look at relationships," or like, "Oh, that's not how stuff works." Then I'm also crying at the end of the movie as they finally get together. Then afterward, I'm like, "Yes, no, it was terrible romance. It's not a healthy relationship. I don't think it's going to last," but it still gets me.
Dedeker: Even programs.
Damona: We get so caught up. All my favorite rom-coms are anti-rom-coms. I love My Best Friend's Wedding, which is like a rock sort of, but it's this woman is trying to steal her best friend away from the person that he is marrying and in love with. She's trying to sabotage the whole thing. That's not healthy either. .
Dedeker: Well, okay. What I'm curious about, though, is I think that piece of advice, oh, love's going to happen when you least expect it. I think there is the rom-com version of that, that it is going to be a mystical fairytale, but sometimes I think that advice gets trotted out to people who are feeling really frustrated by the dating process, or feeling like, "Oh my God, I'm so sick of these apps, I'm so sick of going on dates, I'm so sick of putting an effort."
Then I think that advice is like, "It's like a butterfly. Once you stop trying to catch it, it's going to land on your nose, and it's going to be great." I guess I wonder in that situation when someone's coming to you being like, "I'm frustrated by what I perceive is the level of effort I'm putting into this." Where do you guide people in that situation?
Damona: The butterfly analogy is a good one because I don't know if you've ever caught a butterfly, but I've never caught a butterfly by letting it just land in my hands either. We put these narratives around-- I think it's exactly what you said, Dedeker, that it's to address that feeling of frustration and to allow people the space to be like, "It's okay. It's okay it hasn't happened for you yet, but it still can happen." While I say this book is hopeful, it's not hopeful just like wish, pray, hope. It's hopeful in that I want to give people their power back. I want to give people their agency, and their voice, and their autonomy, and their choice. We have so much more choice.
We've talked about this before when you are on Dates and Mates, we have choice now about how we even want to show up in relationships, how we want to form our relationships, who we want to allow into our circle, how we find that person in a way that my parents didn't have as much choice and certainly, my grandparents didn't have that much choice. We have very short memories. It hasn't been that long that we've had this much freedom, and agency in relationships. I don't want to just throw up my hands and be like, "It'll just happen," when I know that it happens a lot faster, and a lot of times it's much more fulfilling if you go about it from a more mindful place.
Dedeker: Well, I feel like before we can get to mindfulness, there's these myths. There's the bullshit that we need to cut out. What are the four major myths? Can you give us just the CliffNotes version of these myths that you think hold us back?
Damona: Yes. I do identify four major myths in the book. When I first wrote the book, it was going to be the modern love myth and I had like 15 myths. My publisher was like, "Let's narrow it down a little bit." .
Jase: 15 to 4 is a pretty impressive narrowing down.
Dedeker: That's good. Good job.
Damona: Thank you. I think people reading it will identify some of their own myths, too, but the four biggest ones that I see stopping people from having the relationships they want are the list myth. This is we're checking boxes and we're looking for somebody based on-- it's a lot of times not even our list, it's a list that somebody else gave us. We're going to the grocery store for them. We're like, "Oh, it said get eggs and butter." Like, "I don't even know what it's for, but that's what I was told to get." The list myth is the first one. Then the chemistry myth, there's the soulmate myth, and then there's also the rules myth.
The chemistry myth is just this idea that it's going to be butterflies. Butterflies are even good, that it's supposed to feel a certain way. I don't like that. I think there's so much more room for how it can feel when we don't have the clarity on how we want it to feel, we'll just chase anything. It'll just be the spark and the instant attraction, and then you're like, "Wait, why is this not sustaining?" That is a big one.
The rule myth really started when we started trying game dating and play all of the books, like the rules and the books like the game that were like, "Follow these steps and you will get what you want. Whether it's a hookup, whether it's relationship, you will get it." It's in the rules, it was get the ring. That was the only goal. That was the only endpoint. I, first of all, don't think that that's the end point right now, and I also feel like things are so dynamic in dating and relationships, especially today, that I really can't give you a formula for finding love, but I can give you the tools that I have seen consistently lead to love. I would rather have the tools than the rules.
The soulmate myth, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this because I do see it keeping a lot of people single. This idea that there's someone that is predestined for you and that your job is to find your other half. Obviously, that doesn't fit for non-monogamy, that doesn't fit for a lot of people's relationships. I don't like the soulmate myth. I don't like this idea of the one. I've been with my husband for 20 years and I'm in a monogamous relationship and I still don't believe in the one. I think you make whoever you choose to make the ones or the one at that time.
Dedeker: I like that take on it. I think about this a lot, actually, because there's a functional side to how I think about soulmates, which is very much that. I don't think there's any magical predestined one out there for you that you have to find at all costs. Sometimes I like to think about it the same way that maybe as an adult, I'd like to think about Santa Claus in the sense where it's like, "Ooh, it's fun to think about, oh, my goodness, I was meant to be with this person. It's cosmic and it's so romantic, and wow, how amazing we found each other," but I don't believe that that's the foundation of our relationship.
As a non-monogamous person, I'll also indulge in that with multiple people, where I was like, "Oh, my God, I was meant to be with these two people. Wow, that's so magical. That's so great." Whenever I'm dating, that's not necessarily the thing that I'm looking for. I guess it's like I like to play with the magic but not necessarily use it as this is my guiding light. What do you think, Jase?
Jase: That's fun. I feel like there's a lot of stuff that I approach in a similar way of I think these concepts can be helpful. I actually don't think the soulmate one is particularly helpful, but we talk about on the show where we'll look at research or science and things like that, and we always give the caveat of this is always looking at averages. There's bias that comes into it. It can't really tell us the whole picture, but it's really useful.
On the other side, we have these very woo-woo positive thinking. Like, oh, the energy you're putting out into the world and whatever, which I also think is useful, but I also think it's nonsense at the same time. I don't want to put too much stock into it, but that doesn't mean it's still not useful or helpful to think about if it's useful or helpful. I think to come back to the soulmate myth, this is one that I think really indulging in how happy you are in your relationship, if you're in one that makes you happy, great, I just have never seen a positive outcome from the soulmate myth ever.
I've seen either what you talked about, Damona, which is keeping people single thinking that there's someone who's going to be more fairytale perfect, and so that keeps them that way, or it causes people to rush into getting married or having children or moving in together with someone because it feels like they think the fairytale is, and they go, "Ah, well if soulmates are true and they feel like this, this feels like that, therefore I can make all of these very serious, very legally binding commitments with this person, even if it's just a cell phone plan or adopting a puppy, that I can jump into those too soon." I see negative on both sides of this one.
Damona: I agree with you. I would also add, it keeps people single because it keeps people from not even wanting to engage, because they're like, "The magical thing hasn't happened, so I don't know what it's supposed to feel like, but is this it?" This idea of I'm searching for this perfect person then sometimes keeps you from seeing what's right in front of you. Then any issue that arises, you're like, "Oh, they must not be my soulmate then. If we have conflict, then it's not meant to be." I actually feel like in relationships, the conflict is the opportunity. It's the opportunity for self-growth. It's the opportunity for getting to know that other person better.
We talked about this on Dates and Mates around your book, to clarify communication, it's all an opportunity, it's how you look at it. Sometimes it doesn't end the way that you hope it will end and sometimes it doesn't lead where you imagine it will lead. You don't always get what you want, you get what you need. If you can flip your perspective, you can find deeper meaning in any dating or relationship interaction.
I say that caveat, asterisk, this does not apply for relationships that have abuse or obviously I just have to say it because if I don't say it, people will be like, "But what if." I mean any other type of relationship, I think there's learning to be had and growth to be explored.
Jase: That's always a challenging balance to find. I think it's something that comes up a lot on this show, is on the one hand, being too picky and at the first sign of conflict or discomfort, "Oh, well, that's not the one," because it's not the fairytale, they're gone. Or on the other hand is this, "Well, but I felt like this one has a good shot and I'm scared of being alone and I don't think I'm going to find anyone else, so I'm going to stay in this relationship and just say, well, I guess it's better than nothing," when it's like, "No, actually there's a lot of things better than that."
It's hard to find how to guide people on that balance because it's not just something you can objectively look at and go, "Oh, if this is going on, it's bad. If this is going on, it's good," because that might be different for different people. I'm not even talking about abusive situations, but just two perfectly fine people who just are not a good fit, don't have values that line up. It's not there.
Damona: You're hitting on the pillars, which is the antidote to the myths, and values are really key. That is one of the primary filters that people should put in place before they invest in a relationship. Because values don't change all that much. Goals sometimes change, but I say goals and values are really the two drivers of long-term compatibility, but largely people are still the same and we try to make it fit because maybe we're trying to catch a butterfly or trying to feel some magic.
Look, I love magic as much as the next person. I actually really love magic and I love the wonder and I love the discovery and I feel like I have that, but some of it I have to create. I like that better than even what I've seen in the rom-coms and the fairytales.
Dedeker: Can you expound on that? Can you give some examples because we've talked a lot about values on the show and I think finding out what your values are is so important for your life in general, not just for dating. I find sometimes people get a little confused and a little lost. Like me valuing dating someone who's 6'5", is that a value or is that something that's on a list? Or are we talking about political values? I guess I'm wondering how can people get in touch with that and can you share some examples of how you look for values in another person or look for matching values in another person?
Damona: You did hit on some values and then some lists. The funny thing with the list is that people will always say that they've got their list and their list is the exact same list as the next person that comes to me for help. It's like, "Must be this tall, must make this much money, must have this color hair, must drive this car," whatever it is, it's so similar. The values really are completely unique and individual to you.
We look for shortcuts. Religion, is a proxy, we think, for similarity in values. When we all know someone could be of the same faith and live their life completely differently and have completely different values. Or we look at politics, I give an example of the fairytale about a couple that I matched for a Washington post date lab date. On that column, we have a database and we set them up and then we do a play by play of what happened on the date after we interview them after.
These folks were both identified as liberals and working in DC. The political affiliation takes on a whole different meaning, but they both identified themselves as liberals. After the date, the woman told me that she sent a text and asked the guy what he thought of Andrew Yang being a NYC mayoral candidate. I don't know exactly what was in the text, but whatever he said it was the wrong thing, and I just thought, "Okay, first of all, we already established that you're both liberals and you also cannot vote in that hypothetical election that is taking place in another city," but to her, it had so many different levels of meaning that she was trying to-- and it all happened over text, which we've talked about the challenges of digital communication, like that is not the conversation to have over text and that's not really the filter.
I would want to get, if I were coaching them and not just writing about the date, I'd want to get underneath that of why is this important to you, and what are you trying to figure out by asking the question about Andrew Yang. What does that mean to you, and then what meaning are you extrapolating from his answer? We try to get down to the root of values are really how you look at the world and the way that you live your life, and that cannot be distilled into a label.
It can't be identified based on a particular candidate that you cannot vote for. It's not as simple as that, and it's really a process. That's why I always do begin with mindset, because I find that most people do not have that clarity on what their values are and they are dating by lists thinking that they're dating by value.
Dedeker: Well, I think this comes up with the clients that I work with because I work with a lot of non-monogamous clients, and so often it becomes about what's the perfect label I can put on my particular type of non-monogamy so that I can put that on a dating profile and I can match with people who put that same label on their dating profile?
I do think that falls into the same problems as the, oh, we both identify as liberals, therefore it's going to be an automatic match.
There does have to be more of this deep dive process into like, well, what does this label mean to you? If this other other person doesn't use that label, what does that mean to you? Really, what are the actual questions you should be asking of somebody outside of just what label do you use for your type of relationship practice?
Damona: We're a little too addicted to labels, aren't we? We are always searching for-- I think it's that need to explain ourselves and we're looking for shortcuts, we're looking for hacks. So much of the time too, the label that we think doesn't actually even send out the message that we're trying to send out. I started originally as a dating profile writer and somebody would say to me, "Well, I don't like online dating or online dating doesn't work."
I ask them to tell me what they were looking for, and then I'd look at their dating profile and I'm like, "You're not saying at all what you think you're saying." My very first client wanted to get married, wanted to have kids. He was, I think in his early 40s and was like, "I'm ready to settle down, do whatever I saw in romcoms and fairytales." I looked at his profile and I was like, "You have photos of yourself with kids and you don't have kids already, so why do you have this?" He was like, "Well I thought it made me look dad-ly and sent the message that I was looking for someone to have a family with." I said, "That's not at all what it says."
It says, I already have a kid, and that's a whole conversation, and if you're interested in me, you're also interested in my kid, and it's not even your kid. There's all of these little labels or little cues that we'll put out there with one intention, and sometimes it does take someone like you or I or just an outside person to say, "I don't think that's what you're trying to say."
Jase: It's funny how much that comes up because just this morning I was looking at I guess an acquaintance of mine posting on LinkedIn about looking for a job because there were a lot of layoffs in the entertainment industry recently because of the actor strike and the writer strike, and so people are now looking for jobs again. Reading his post, I wanted to reach out and I felt like this would be super inappropriate, but wanted to reach out and say, "Here's how your post is coming across. I don't think that's how you mean for it to come across."
It just came across as either complain-y or desperate or something when I'm like, "I know this person and I know that's not what you're going for and that's not what you're like," but it can be easy to just end up communicating something that we don't think we are.
Damona: Oh, and that's a whole other challenge when we layer in social media and how we're speaking to different audiences in different places. Sliding into the DMs is steadily growing as another way to meet people legitimately. I was just at a matchmaking conference and I found out there's a bunch of matchmakers that are using LinkedIn. I literally did not even know.
Jase: Wow.
Dedeker: Wow. Clever.
Damona: LinkedIn is where --
Dedeker: I have not done that.
Damona: -you're sourcing-- Well, hey, maybe this person can't get a job, but maybe they could get a date.
Jase: You're right. Possibly.
Damona: Probably not with the complain-y and all that, but when you really consider what you're putting out into the world and you think about it not from the perspective of like, "This is what I have to say," but this is what I'm trying to convey, this is what I want to attract, and what is that person looking for?
What would catch that person's attention? It totally flips the experience because most people date as if they are the protagonist in their love story, which they have been, but there's something interesting that happens when you say, "Take the third person here, take a different point of view and look at it from the perspective of whoever is looking at you instead of from your own vantage point." Then you can see things that were not clear. I don't know how that will help your friend and their post problem, but if you could say that to them, it might give them a different angle on the post.
Jase: Having an outside set of eyes can really help too. Whether that's someone in a professional capacity, or that's just having friends who you trust who-- it's this weird thing of you want a friend that you trust but that maybe doesn't know you so well that they'll end up writing the same stuff you would. They have to be different enough from you, maybe.
Damona: Well, and you don't want to have that negative Nancy friend that's like-
Jase: Well that too.
Damona: -they've been burned so many times and they're like, "Why do you even?" I have that too, people that I was dating that my friends were like, "Why are you with that person?" Somebody said to me, don't yuck somebody else's yum. In dating sometimes I got my yum yucked, and then I was like, "Well, wait, why do I want to date this person?" That's another thing that shifted so much with social media and online dating. Dating has become a lot more public.
Dedeker: Yes.
Jase: Yes. It's like a performance part.
Damona: Remember, we didn't used to tell people, "Oh, I have a first date with this person. I'm going out with this person a second time." Even dating this person, it was a big thing for me to be debuted at my husband's birthday party when we'd been dating I think maybe five weeks or something. That was a thing, for me to meet his friends, and now I just feel like everybody is dating by committee. You have to be careful about the inputs that you're letting in and whether they have the same values, goals, and your best interests at heart.
Dedeker: Particularly, I keep wanting to go back to the myths because I keep looking at them and I'm realizing something that it seems like they all have in common is this is a way that we feel like we're going to get back control and safety in the dating process. If I have a rigid list of qualities, that gives me a sense of control. If I feel like I can lean on a formula, a set of rules, that gives me a sense of safety.
If I feel like, oh, I'm going to chase chemistry so that I'll know it when I feel it and that's going to be my cue, that gives me a sense of safety. Then the soulmate thing also, oh, maybe it's predestined, so it's okay, I don't need to think about it too much. I imagine that letting go of some of these things is really scary for a lot of people, so I'm curious about when you're working as a coach, how do you disabuse people of some of these things? Or do you find that there's particular things that people have a much harder time letting go of than other things?
Damona: That's a really good question and a very astute observation. I hadn't thought of it as related to control, but I did write the book with the intention of giving back more control.
Dedeker: More actual control, it sounds like.
Damona: Actual control.
Dedeker: Yes.
Damona: I'm not interested in pointing fingers at anybody telling anyone that, "You're wrong. Your dating life is wrong. You've been doing it wrong." I'm just interested in getting to the truth. That's what I see that we're also a little bit afraid of. That's why we're seeing so much ghosting. That's why we're seeing people staying in relationships that are not right, because we all have this fear.
This fear, "If I let this person go, is there someone else that's going to come in?" Or this feeling that, if I open up and I really share what's in my heart and what I want, whether that's even I want non-monogamy, or I want a commitment, I want marriage, whatever it is, we get so afraid of the truth, of the outcome that we stuff down what we actually want to say. That's only hurting us. We have to be willing to take a risk. We have to be willing to express what we want if we're going to get our needs met.
Dedeker: I think that so much of the pain and suffering that I tend to see people go through, particularly in the dating process. There's tons of pain and suffering that goes through in other steps of the relationship, but particularly in the dating process, so much of it does seem related to someone feeling shame about some particular thing that they want or something that they're looking for, something that they're hoping that their partner will give them, and they feel like they can't say it because it's too shameful or too vulnerable, and so then we end up in these weird dances.
Whether it is like, "I have to ghost because I don't know how to say to this person I'm not that interested. Sorry. Thank you for the time we spent." Or, "I need to keep them at arm's length because I haven't gotten the cues that I thought that I would get that would let me know it's going to be safe for me to say yes actually I'm interested in a commitment." I think that that's really apt. There is something about the truth about ourselves and what we want that feels just too scary to actually to put out there for somebody.
Damona: Yes, I think you're right. There is definitely some shame underneath that. I talk in the book about single shame. People that understandably in the society that we live in don't even want to say, "I'm single and looking. I'm single and I'm not looking." We feel like if we define it, then it takes us back to being on the playground and somebody pointing at us and being like, "That person's out." I know because I'm terrible at sports and I was the last one picked every time. Literally didn't matter what sport it was, I was the last one that was going to be picked.
Dedeker: Oh, I have that same baggage around sports. Always last to be picked.
Damona: Oh man. I talk about how I really was very cynical about love for a long time. I didn't see myself finding a relationship. I didn't even know if I wanted what I have now. Now I know I did, but that fear of rejection keeps us playing small. I had to really step into more of myself, my own authenticity, my own truth to be able to attract the best relationship for me.
Dedeker: Maybe this is related to the topic at hand, but in your book you talk about dating Samskaras. What is dating Samskaras and how many sun salutations do we have to do to release these Samskaras?
Damona: 108.
Dedeker: Okay, Great. Oh, that's an auspicious number. That's an auspicious number.
Damona: I borrow in the book from a lot of different methodologies that I have used to help me grow into the person that I am and the person that I'm becoming. Yoga is one of those methodologies and philosophies. We have always talked in yoga about Samskaras are patterns. They were described to me by my teachers as you think of it as like a groove, like a well-worn scar that you go over and over again and over and over again.
The more that you say a phrase, the more that you have a belief, the more that you will act in a certain way, and the more that you put that in your body. These Samskaras, we tend to think of them as all negative, but you can actually shift your Samskara. If you even just think of a routine that you have, like getting up and working out in the morning, that could be a form of a Samskara.
If you don't have that routine in your life, replacing sleeping in and playing with your dog in the morning, instead of getting up and going for a run, you can shift your whole experience by changing that negative behavior or that behavior that isn't serving what you ultimately want with a more positive one. I apply that to dating because I see a lot of people having dating patterns that they haven't been able to look at yet, or they haven't been able to change, having dating beliefs, phrases that they've repeated again and again and again.
I find that when we start to go after a different narrative and we catch ourselves, we catch how often we are playing out that old narrative and we replace it with the new narrative that, that orders our actions in a different way.
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Dedeker: I imagine some examples of this that probably come up a lot from frustrated people would be things like, "There's just no one out there for me. I keep running into failure." Or I think right now the heteropessimism is just rampant and so it's like all men are trash. Or just dating over the age of whatever age is just impossible. Are those the things that you find that you run into when you're working with people?
Damona: Yes, I've heard all of those things that you mentioned, and more. I have proven them not to be true if you don't believe them to be true. I even talk in the book too about race and there's so many beliefs about race. I'm speaking as a multiracial person. There's a lot of beliefs that we hold because of our lived experience, because of the society that we live in. Sometimes we make assumptions that other people hold those same beliefs. I think the magic, I think the discovery is in figuring out what beliefs other people actually do hold. Sometimes they're not the big bad story that we're telling ourselves.
Jase: I think that's great. It also reminds me of something that-- it's been a while since we've talked about it on the show, but this idea of holding a little less tightly to the things that we believe ourselves to. It's interesting to think of it in that way of also hold less tightly to the idea that everyone believes this thing.
Because that's a real trap people can fall into on all different sides, whether it's assuming everyone else thinks these negative things or it's assuming everyone else thinks this one particular thing is easy and good, and then it's actually not true for some other people and you can be a real jerk if you go out with that assumption. That's such a really interesting thing to think about both for others and for ourselves of holding a little less tightly to some of those beliefs.
Damona: Oh, that is a really interesting perspective. I love that discovery of what are the beliefs and allowing those beliefs to evolve especially because of social media and just media in general, the way that we have all been siloed into our own belief systems and then had the same beliefs repeated to us. It's so interesting seeing people not have independent thought and you're like, "I literally-- I saw that TikTok video."
You're literally just repeating that TikTok video and you think that that's your own opinion, but it's not even. There's 10 other people that made that same video. It's spooky, really. I feel like this is not necessarily related to dating, I think in general we could all back off from our own corners a little bit and get a lot further by looking for-- we just are all more alike than we are different.
If we can look for the commonalities instead of being like, "Oh, you're different. That's a red flag." We push so much away because we haven't done that process of being willing to just examine our own beliefs. Actually, that's one thing I really love about my husband. He is really great at holding multiple points of view. Even if he doesn't agree with someone, he's an excellent listener. That's one of the things I just love in our relationship. I love talking to him about complex issues because he always helps me see a perspective that I didn't know. Even if I come in at a 10, I'm a Sagittarius, I'm always coming in at a 10. Black Jewish woman, I'm coming in at a 10, and he is like, "Well, but--" I love that. I know not everyone loves that discovery, but I've experienced that that's where relationships get really interesting.
Dedeker: That ability for your husband to hold multiple points of view at once, I would imagine that that's really helpful with conflict also because I do think that so much of that is, is being able to hold, okay, I have my particular perspective on this, and then my partner also has a particular perspective on this. Even if those are not the same, I can still accept that both of those exist at once.
Damona: It's a tremendous benefit. I will say his mom's a social worker. He did therapy from a young age, and I feel like all of those tools that he got really helped him to be a better partner. It's not too late if you don't have those tools. I think anyone can acquire those tools if they're willing to go through that experience. It's very helpful in conflict, and also to just take a position of listening to understand and not always trying to solve, but just be willing to come to the table and listen to another point of view, and usually, he's right and I'm the one that has to go-- it's a practice. It's a daily practice for him.
He subscribes to all these substacks from completely different points of view. I'm like, "Why are you following that person?" Because he wants to gain the knowledge and the information about another person's perspective. I mentioned this just to say that it doesn't just happen. It is something that you have to work at and practice. Maybe you don't want to subscribe to a bunch of random substacks, but you're subscribing to podcasts. You might as well just add a few more to the mix.
You get the chance in each of these dating interactions to practice listening, to practice understanding another person's point of view. Especially if you're coming to meet a stranger, you don't know any of this yet. We like to try to go through the dating apps and shortcut it and say, "Oh, I saw which emojis were on their profile and therefore I know them." We want to shortcut it. I know we want to shortcut it because it does take a lot of time and effort to go through this swiping process. Whoever told you that swiping was easy,-
Jase: Totally not.
Damona: -I'm sorry. They absolutely lied.
Dedeker: I feel only the swiping apps have ever suggested that this is going to make it easy. Now that I say that out loud, I'm like, "Oh yes, it makes sense." They would be the ones suggesting that. I don't think anybody else has ever really felt that.
Damona: I think apps changed because people wanted easy. They wanted ease of use. When my husband and I met online, it was a dating site. It wasn't an app.
Jase: Same for us.
Damona: I remember talking about that. There was so much more information and the process of trying to figure out who I was going out with was a lot easier than when you have one paragraph on them, a few emojis, and a handful of pictures and you're sitting there in the DMs all day trying to figure out, is this somebody that I want to invest my time in, and you're doing that with 10 other people. It is exhausting. We wanted the ease of use. Oh, it's so easy. You can create a profile, just pick a couple of pictures from your phone and you're on. The barrier for entry used to be really high for online dating. Now it's super low. There's no gatekeepers. It's free now.
We used to have to pay for it. It's free. People get mad when they have to pay for a feature. I'm like, "Do you think this is free?" You will get what you pay for. If you want to do it for free, you may have a less satisfying experience. You may have to do more of the sorting. If you want to shortcut some of those things, pay for the Bumblebee line or get OkCupid premium or whatever app you're on, use the shortcuts. Otherwise, back of the line. You're out here swiping and in the DMs with everybody else.
Dedeker: Speaking of shortcuts, in the book, you talk about this concept of slow love, like the slow food movement was this response to the fast food movement. Really taking your time to get to know someone during the early phases of dating. We on this show talk a lot about NRE, new relationship energy, the super exciting, the rush, the thrill, the chemical cocktail in your brain. We've had a lot of listeners write into us asking, "How do I manage this? When do I listen to those feelings? Oh, when do I need to be cautious? When are those feelings dulling my ability to actually tell what kind of person somebody is?"
I guess I'm wondering, how do you recommend that people do pump the brakes and decide to go slowly when they're feeling that rush? How do people do that in a way that doesn't feel like they're arbitrarily holding themselves back?
Damona: I have to acknowledge, I didn't come up with slow love, but it is something that for over a decade, I have talked to my clients about. Really, Dr. Helen Fisher gets the credit for a lot of things in our industry, but she really popularized that. I just learned that just today. I was today years old when I figured out that slow food movement was a response to fast food. I just didn't even know that. That's really smart. I have grown here today during this podcast. First of all, I tell my clients to space out their interactions in the early phase because we can get caught up in momentum, and we know part of that NRE, as you said.
Dedeker: Yes, you got it.
Jase: Yes.
Damona: Thank you. Part of that NRE is our own neurotransmitters. It's our hormones firing and when you're in proximity to somebody else, they're firing even more. The more time you're spending with this person, the more you want to be with this person, the more you're getting those endorphins pumped through your body, and the more that you think, "Oh, this is perfect. We just got to push it through. I want to see them tomorrow, and I want to see them the next day, and I want to see them the next day."
You don't have that space in between when you come down off of that high and you're in withdrawal and you're like, "Wait, do I even want another hit of this? Do I even like how I feel right now? Am I thinking about this person still? What am I thinking about this person? When I replay the conversations that we've had, wait, does this person align with my goals and values? Am I making this fit when it doesn't actually align?"
I see that a lot. We start to compromise when we're in that spiral of that NRE. We are like, "Actually, you know what, that wasn't that important to me." I put that down. I told Timon that I really needed somebody that shared my faith, but you know what, actually no, it's fine." Then we just compromise on whatever we thought was actually important to make it fit. We need that space. We need that space to really figure out where we are at so we can figure out where the connection is at.
Dedeker: I appreciate that you phrase it that way, that sometimes we can be making something fit that doesn't actually fit. I think especially if you felt frustrated for a long time if you felt lonely for a long time. The best metaphor that was ever explained to me, and I think Cassie Ryder was the one that I got this from, was the grocery store metaphor. It's like if you're coming to dating, it's like going to the grocery store hungry sometimes where you're just like, "Oh my God. I'm so tired of feeling this way and so I'm going to buy capers and way more vegetables than I can ever cook and all the stuff that I can't even afford because I really need to fulfill this."
It's like I'm trying to make this fit my nutritional need when it doesn't actually fit. I think the same thing happens where you can feel so frustrated of feeling a particular way that then the first person who comes along that makes you feel a different way, it is like that, "Okay, whatever. My values don't matter. The things that I thought that I was looking for in a relationship don't matter. I'm just going to make this fit." Unfortunately, I think what I see in people is that the neurotransmitter effect lasts sometimes for a while. Sometimes six months up to a year and a half, and then sometimes people end up a year and a half in realizing, "Oh, actually this wasn't a fit for my values, but now I'm a year and a half into this."
Damona: Part of that is the discovery too. We need to get rid of this idea of like, "Oh, we got to know right away. Don't want to waste my time. It's one month in and out," and look at the value you can get out of a year and a half relationship that didn't work. Now you know more. You know more about yourself, you know more about what you're looking for. You maybe got to practice some of these communication skills and listening and understanding and building new samskaras, and not everybody's going to be right for you, and that's okay.
That's okay too. I feel like that's where the shame comes back up, right? Like, "Oh, well, now I have to go and tell everybody that I'm single again and I have to scrub this person from my social media," or "I'm going to have to explain it away." We lay other baggage on top of it that really isn't even our baggage. It's more about what are other people going to think. I do also hear, "Oh, now I have to go back and start all over." I just had a client that was telling me she ended a relationship after five and a half months because they weren't aligned in goals.
She was looking for a commitment, and he was not sure, not looking for a commitment when they met, but was like, "Maybe I could be convinced. Let's go along for this ride." She was feeling really discouraged that she had to "start over". She also felt like she really didn't know that she would find that again. She was like, "I just hadn't felt like that in so long."
Meanwhile, I've been working with this person for a little while, and I was like, "What do you mean you hadn't felt like that in so long?" Because last year, I swear, we had the same conversation about somebody else, and you were telling me you hadn't felt like that in so long.
Our memories are really short, too. What I said to her is, "What you know now is that it's possible. If you had this feeling now you know that it's possible. There's no reason to just hold on to this because it's like a burdened hand if it's not right. You know if you felt those feelings that-- I think I worry more if you're like, "I've just never met anybody that I've even been attracted to." That's when I get in and really poke.
Jase: Actually, that brought up something for me. Thinking about the bad habits or bad beliefs that the romantic comedies give us. One of them is that idea of the one who got away, which is tied into the whole soulmate thing. It's that fear that "Oh, if this didn't work out, if I somehow failed this relationship or didn't make it succeed, that my only hope is to go back and get that one or I end up sad forever." Whereas the reality, like you were talking about, is being in relationships is a skill, and dating is a skill.
The more you're learning about yourself and the more you're learning how to do that in a healthy way and communicate more genuinely and meet people where they are, it actually means you're going to have more opportunities to do it better the next time. I think that myth that if you missed the one that was the right one because you didn't realize it, that was it.
Damona: That is definitely under the soulmate myth. So much of it is timing, too. Like I was saying, my husband and I we don't believe in the one. Neither of us do. We were in a place when we met where we were on the same trajectory. We had the same goals, we had similar enough values. We worked on our clear communication, and over time, we built trust. That's why I put the fourth pillar is the trust because that one really does take time to build.
It's the one that takes the longest, and it's the one that is the hardest to repair if it's broken. That's what we needed at that time. I feel that magic you were talking about earlier, Dedeker when you were saying that feeling of, "How did we find each other?" I was just saying that to him the other day, "I can't believe we found each other," but that's because so many things had to align for this moment to happen. There's probably another one out there. I'm just like, "Thank God I locked him down before anybody else got him," because he was a catch.
Dedeker: I got at least a good one. Maybe it's not the one.
Damona: I think the other thing that that does when you're in a relationship is it also empowers you in the current relationship, whether you've been together as long as you all have or you've been married for-- I haven't been married 20 years, but I've been with my husband 20 years. I know that no matter what happens, I'm going to be okay. I have made the commitment, I intend to be in this relationship for the rest of my life, but I also know sometimes unexpected things happen and you have to be okay.
This is where we see when people have the soulmate myth and they're like, "This was my person," and then something happens, and they're like, "I can't go on. I can't go on with my life." They think that that is the end because the relationship has ended for whatever reason. That, to me also, then just strips your joy and strips your power and doesn't bring you to the table in a relationship whole. Speaking of romcoms, the, "You complete me." No, you come to the table a whole human with your own beliefs and with your own stuff going on. You are fully formed, and I, too, am a whole human, and together we amplify one another, but nobody's anybody's missing piece.
Jase: I love that. That's so important to reiterate that to people that even in those really profound, "This is the person I love more than anyone else in the world. Also, I would be okay and still a full human without them. Sure, I'd be super bummed if that were to happen, but I'm a whole person and they're a whole person," and that, I think, is just like, when you say that to people, it sounds like you're speaking nonsense sometimes. They're like, "How can you love them then?" Or "What do you mean by--" It doesn't compute because that's so ingrained in us.
Damona: There's just a lot of codependence in our society, too. I want to have a better word for a healthier way of interacting, where you amplify one another, you buoy one another, you support one another, but you're not doing everything for the other person. You're not lost without the other person.
Dedeker: We get a lot of people who ask us things like, "How do you feel about doing something like listing your STI status on a dating profile?" Do you have any takes on that?
Damona: I have a lot of takes. There's certainly a stigma around STIs that I feel like, again, a lot of people don't even really understand. They look at the label and they're like, "Oh, I can't date this person." I just had someone write in about STI status on Dates-n-Mates. They were like, "I really liked this person. They revealed to me on the first or second date that they are HSV positive, that they have herpes." They were like, "I guess I can't date them." I was like, "What?"
First of all, get your facts about even what that means. Understand what the risks are for transmission because you're thinking it's this big thing. I've worked a little bit with Gilead HIV division, and the amount of advancements that have been made in treatment and prevention in just the last decade is unbelievable. I'm sure your listeners are very smart, so I'm sure everyone here already knows their STI status. I'm sure everybody's on prep, and that's that, as we should be because we have all of these tools now available to help us. There's a whole education process that I think people need to go through. Not people who have an STI diagnosis, but people who are dating someone that may reveal that.
We can't keep just pushing it away. I don't have the stats in front of me, maybe you know, but isn't it 40% of people have herpes?
Jase: It's a huge number.
Dedeker: It's a huge number that either have HSV. It depends on if you're looking at HSV-1 or HSV-2, but it's a huge percentage.
Damona: We all have HSV-1, everyone. It's 99--
Dedeker: Most transmissions happens because someone hasn't gotten tested or hasn't asked to be tested, and they don't even know, right?
Jase: Yes. I would bet you every single STI test you've ever had in your entire life did not test for HSV-1 or 2 unless you specifically asked them for that one.
Damona: I heard something very interesting about The Golden Bachelor this week. He said that going on the show, because having worked in reality TV forever, there's this whole process people have to go through, a psych evaluation, then they have to go through a health screening.
Dedeker: Evaluation.
Damona: Especially for dating shows, you have to do your STI test. He said that was the first STI test he had ever had.
Dedeker: Oh no.
Jase: Wow.
Dedeker: Oh man.
Jase: Yikes.
Damona: He didn't reveal what the results were, but it reminded me of stats that I've read- I know you all like the data- about how STIs are really growing among 50-plus individuals. Because a lot of folks had the stigma around getting tested, have never been tested, thought they didn't have to get tested. Now because of dating apps, we have so much more opportunity for people 50-plus to date. Thank you Golden Bachelor for bringing it into the mainstream too. There are so many people out there that don't even know their status but would see it on a dating profile and be like, "Oh no, I just can't."
Dedeker: Exactly.
Damona: It's like, "You got to know your own status first before you start throwing daggers here." The simple answer to the question is, no, I wouldn't put it on your profile because people don't really understand what that means. When you are putting it on your profile, you have no chance to contextualize it or to educate people, and a lot of people have misconceptions about what an STI status even really means and how to treat or how to prevent an STI, and would just push it away without even doing the research.
Now, it's certainly something you should bring up in conversation, but we are in such a rapid dating society. We were talking about slow dating and slow love. The apps, it's all speed. It's all speed and ease of use. People will spend less than three seconds figuring out if they want to spend more time with your profile or if they want to swipe left. Anything that gives them a reason to immediately swipe left, I think does not belong in your dating profile right away.
Jase: It's so interesting because there's a lot of other approaches out there that go hard the other direction. It's like you want all the people that have X, Y, Z deal breaker to just swipe left so you don't even have to waste your time with them. It's such a tricky thing.
Dedeker: I agree with what you're saying though, when it comes specifically to STI status. We could get in the weeds about any other thing you feel like you need to disclose on a dating profile, but I do agree that because there is so much stigma, so much knee-jerk judgment, that-- honestly, the first time that I dated someone who was HSV positive, that wasn't on his dating profile, we had a conversation. I think at that time in my life, this was many years ago when I also wasn't as educated about all this stuff, if we couldn't have had a conversation, I may have been one of those people who was just, "No, not interested."
Yes, I agree, because you need to have context both about, "This is how long that this has been my status. This is how I manage it. This is how it manifests for me. This is how I have safer sex. These are the resources that I really like," if you don't know very much about it. I think I agree on this point that giving yourself as many opportunities to be able to contextualize it. Because unfortunately, the state of sex education for most people in this country is pretty abominable, plus the stigma that I think any opportunity you can have to actually have a real-time more human conversation about it instead of a snap judgment I think is a good thing.
Damona: I definitely hear your point, Jase, about there is a-- I'm with the philosophy that if somebody is not in alignment with you and they know it from your profile, then great, you just saved yourself a lot of time and heartache. At the same time, I think there are certain things where if you put them on your profile, I would say, also having kids is another thing. I will tell my-- "Look, I'm a mom. I love kids, but I don't think your kids really should be on your dating profile." Even if your entire life revolves around them right now, that's very nice, no one's dating your kids. They're dating you, and they need to see you as an attractive sexual being, not as a mom or dad at that point.
Dedeker: Not trying to make yourself look more dadly with other people's kids-
Damona: Don't do it.
Dedeker: -in your profile photos.
Damona: Of course, be honest. You can check, "I have kids." "I have kids, don't want more." "I have kids, want more." "I have kids." I just have kids, none of your business, but it's just no pictures. Let's not tell stories about it in the beginning of dating. They're not dating you for your kids. Part of the story, but it's a story that's better told and not swiped on.
Jase: I think with this idea of what to have in the profile, the kids thing is interesting because you're saying, "Don't lead with that and have that be front and center, but if there's that option to check, 'I have kids,' check it, or maybe have a sentence somewhere," because I do think that's worthwhile for people to know and might save you some time if there's people who are like, "Absolutely not," then you're just not wasting either of your time. I'm thinking about this because with non-monogamy, that's a big one.
Dedeker: Big one.
Jase: That's one that we, since the beginning of this show, have really been pro put it in your profile, because it's such a big dividing line that if someone is not aware of it, it feels like you've misled them. If it's not what they're looking for, neither of you is going to be happy and you've just wasted everybody's time. I think it's less common now, especially as more dating apps are putting that option in, like kids, where you can say, "I'm monogamous," or, "I'm non-monogamous."
Before that, there were a lot of people who had out of shame, like we've talked about a lot, leave that off and think, "Oh, maybe a couple of dates in, then I'll talk about it, so I can give it context." I don't think the same principles apply there as they might with STIs.
Damona: That's interesting. I would say that's also true in the monogamy community. No, you have to say you have kids, but you don't have to make your profile about that. I feel like sometimes we get caught up in this feeling like we have to explain it, and then we're explaining it before it's even a problem. I've had people write into Dates & Mates, "I have a disability, I have debt," all of these things.
Dedeker: "I have depression."
Damona: "I have depression." Girl, we've all got something. We've all got something behind the curtain. Again, think about it from the perspective of the person that you're trying to attract and how much information do they need to know at that time. Then you can figure out when to reveal that information based on when you begin to trust that person with that information too, because not everybody is entitled to all your life story.
Jase: That's a great way to look at it, too, is that they haven't earned that yet with certain things.
Dedeker: Right.
Damona: No. I had a client who she'd had a first date, and the guy said, "I see that you're divorced. What happened?" She was like, "My husband cheated on me, duh, duh, duh, I have this. My kid has special needs. I had this. I was a full-time caregiver." I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did he earn that information? Why did you get divorced, on the first date?" That's not his business. He's trying to shortcut and be like, "Let me see if this lady is crazy."
Dedeker: That makes sense.
Damona: Just because he asked the question doesn't mean that he's entitled to the answer. You can always turn it around. Why would I talk about my ex when I'm here with you? With a handsome man like you?
Jase: That's a slick one. That's good.
Damona: Oh yes, I've got lines for this.
Jase: Damona, it has been a pleasure, as always, having you on the show. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I'm really excited for everybody to go check out your book and to get more of your insights. Where can people find you, and where can they get the book? All that stuff.
Damona: You can get the book wherever you get your books, or check it out at fthefairytalebook.com. It's just a letter F. Then, of course, I'm on the socials, @damonahoffman, and I'm still doing the Dates & Mates podcast. They should look up that episode that you mentioned and check out what we do over on Dates and Mates wherever they're listening to Multiamory right now.
Jase: Awesome. Thank you so much, again.
Damona: Thank you. Great to see you both.