472 - "Is it possible to get ahead of couples' privilege?"
This week’s question for our Q&A episode is:
My husband and I are new to ENM and are committed to non-hierarchical. We're doing a lot of learning and know about couples privilege but don’t have a lot of resources for actually identifying all the ways it exists and ways to lessen the impact on our other partners. Do you have any suggestions for resources? (Or any chance you can whip up an acronym for questions to ask to help recognize couples privilege at play? 😉). Thank you for all you do, your podcast and Patreon have been SO helpful for us!
~Privileged Pair in Pittsburgh
If you want to submit a question to be answered on one of the extra Q&A episodes we're doing for the next few months, become one of our Patreon supporters at www.patreon.com/multiamory.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Dedeker: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we are answering a question from one of our Patreon supporters. If you want the opportunity to ask a question on the show, become one of our patrons at patreon. com slash multiamory. We're going to be doing this for the next couple of months, releasing an extra episode each week, answering a listener question.
And we're really excited to hear from you all on what you think about. This new format.
Quick disclaimer, we have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but we're not mind readers yet. Our advice is based solely on the limited information we have, so please take everything that we say with a grain of salt.
Jase: Every situation is unique, so we encourage you to use your own judgment, and of course, seek professional help if needed. Because ultimately, you're the only true expert on your life and your feelings, and your decisions are your own. Also, we will sometimes edit these questions for time and clarity.
Dedeker: And here is this week's question. How do we actively identify and address couples privilege? My husband and I are new to ethical non monogamy and are committed to being non hierarchical. We're doing a lot of learning and know about couples privilege, but don't have a lot of resources for actually identifying all the ways it exists and ways to lessen the impact on our other partners.
Do you have any suggestions for resources or any chance you can whip up an acronym for questions to ask to help recognize couples privilege at play? There's a winky emoji. Thank you for all you do. Your podcast and Patreon have been so helpful for us. And that is from Privileged Pair in Pittsburgh.
Extra points for the alliteration, as always. Well done. Okay. Acronym on the spot.
Emily: Whoa, whoa.
Jase: Yeah.
Emily: I know, I was trying to think of like a CPP maybe, like couples privilege Pittsburgh, but
Jase: It's like a custom made acronym.
Dedeker: Custom for them, ooh, that's a premium service. That's a, the real top tiers of the Patreon membership.
Emily: Or simply just, in dedication to them that we create something that is based off of that. But they were asking for specifically questions to ask to help recognize couples privilege at play.
Dedeker: Well, before we dive into that though, I want to, I want to zoom out and just look at this on a meta level. So first of all, anyone feel brave enough to do a kind of shooting from the hip definition of couples privilege what that is for those who aren't in the know?
Jase: I'll give it a try. You can correct me if I'm wrong. I think the the point of it is that generally, privilege is some sort of advantage that we have because of something about our identity or our status that is usually invisible to us, which is why identifying it can be a hard thing to learn. So , this often shows up as, like, straight privilege or white privilege or male privilege or things like that, but when it comes to non monogamy, there is this couple privilege idea.
It usually comes up most often when couples are seeking a third, where they might go in thinking, yeah, we're all on an even playing field, but actually there's a lot of systems and society and assumptions in place already that give the two people in the original couple advantages over other people that they can be unaware of and take for granted and in turn end up being shittier to that third person.
This also shows up though in in other types of relationships not just if they're dating together but that I think is kind of where the the term first started kind of being talked about a lot is is how The couple has a lot of advantages in terms of their support network, their solidity, assumptions about what secrets can and can't be kept.
A lot of that favors that couple over any new partner. How'd I do?
Emily: I think
Dedeker: Good. Gold star.
Emily: Job. Um,
Dedeker: Yeah, well done. Well done.
Emily: Just want to acknowledge that these two are really interested in examining their own couple's privilege and being non hierarchical, and that is a great place for them to be in. And that's not necessarily what everyone who comes into non monogamy wants to do, but well done for putting that out there and for saying, hey, this is the way that I want to be, and so I want to examine that couple's privilege and try to figure out how to maybe divest myself of that. Divest our partnership of that. That's really cool. Well done for them.
Dedeker: this is, this is something that I just want to put in the caveat ahead of time that I think what I've seen over the past few years is much this sense of non hierarchy automatically equals good and automatically equals the most ethical way to practice, which may not necessarily be the most ethical way to practice. I just want to put that out there. Like, I think it's really good that this couple, clearly they're trying to consume resources. They're trying to educate themselves. They're really trying to get ahead of any ways they may unconsciously hurt somebody. It seems like they're really trying to be compassionate to the other people in their lives.
And I also, and I think this is going to color some of my more concrete answers as we get deeper into this, that, Sometimes there could be this real big pressure on people, especially when they're entering non monogamy that like, you have to do it in this particular way. Like it has to start out very non hierarchical.
That's the only ethical way to do that. And, I believed that for many, many years until I started seeing a wide variety of clients where I started to see couples who claim to be non hierarchical and are actually really bad at it. And leading with that was actually, um, not doing a service to the people they were dating.
And then I've seen people who are openly and proactively very hierarchical, who have produced a wonderful experience for themselves and for the people that, that they're in relationships with as well. So I just want to put that out there that I really want to dispel this kind of sense that someone practicing hierarchy automatically is bad.
Someone practicing non hierarchy automatically is good. I think practicing any of these things not intentionally or without doing some work is probably going to produce some funky results, but I just wanted to put in my two cents there before we dive into this deeper.
Jase: Yeah, I'll just reiterate bravo to you for even asking the question and thinking about these things and exploring this. It sounds like in the Patreon group as well. So like that's honestly the first step and that's, that's really great. I gotta say, I'm always I was so impressed by , just the, the depth and the nuance in the questions that our patrons ask when we did our Q& A episodes previously and now that we're doing these kind of like single question episodes it's just so cool and if you would like to be one of those cool people who gets to ask cool questions on the show, become one of our patrons If you go to multiamory.com/join, you can join as a patron there, which gets you access to our private Discord server, private Facebook group where you can connect with other people, as well as some other perks, like at certain tiers, you get ad free episodes , access to our monthly video processing groups where you can talk about these things in real time with other people, which is just such a cool thing. Anyway, it really goes a long way to help support this show and keep this content coming.
Dedeker:
All right, well, I will start by saying this could be a little bit of a cop out on the acronym thing, but the acronym that we created a long time ago, the MOVIES acronym, way back in episode 133, I was just pulled that up and was looking at it and it wasn't created specifically for identifying couples privilege, like, we created MOVIES as sort of this list of questions to ask a new partner that might help you get more detailed information about how they practice non monogamy or polyamory, but I do think a lot of these could be reframed a little bit to examine if there's any couple's privilege at play here. So, for instance, MOVIES, the M was for metamours, things like , Do I get to meet my metamours? Who gets to meet their metamours? Or who gets to practice PDA in front of whom? You know, I know that sometimes that may be something that couples haven't even really thought about, that they might have to experience their partner, being affectionate with somebody else in front of them, or maybe appearing like they're a couple with somebody else.
So that's something to look at, of like, are there any feelings there around if your partner is presenting as a couple with somebody else when you've been used to being the one who is part of the couple? I don't need to do a deep dive into all of these. Like, I recommend people go back and listen to episode 133.
We titled it Six Questions You Must Ask Your New Partner, but we go through things like openness, veto rules, managing intercourse and safer sex, rules around events or scheduling or sleepovers. And I do think you can examine all of these different things and talk about that as a couple and ask yourselves, are there ways that we have been used to defaulting to prioritizing this relationship in these arenas over other relationships? You know, that can be a good place to start.
Emily: I'm sitting here trying to figure out a fun acronym for this one, and I'm, I'm just kind of throwing out some words to fit into the acronym. And things like prescriptive versus descriptive, for instance, that's a big question.
I think that it's challenging because if you live with someone, then there is a potential certain amount of precedent that they're going to take just simply by default. And I think that that's something to just be aware of, and that's okay. But then, yeah, if you want to be super egalitarian, then maybe that's something to look at as well, and what does that look like to you?
Because I think, again, equal is not necessarily a reality, but we can strive to move more towards that. And then we have to question, what is that actually going to look like for us individually, and as a couple.
Jase: Yes, I, I just want to hit on that a little bit, that just acknowledging the fact that there will be some hierarchy, and that I think the sort of the, the utopian ideal of non hierarchy, also, it's almost like it needs to happen in this sort of fictional idealized world where every relationship is just as old as every other one and everyone is just as connected and intimate with each other partner and that all of that is is equal.
I think it's kind of the the sort of utopian vision that's like the what is the joke about like, you know, to scientists, like, all cows are perfect spheres, or something like-
Dedeker: Excuse me?
Emily: I, wait, I've never seen a perfect sphere of a cow, but please.
Jase: That's the point, right? Is that, like, in, in science and in research and simulations, we're always having to fudge some of it, right? To kind of come up with statistical models for things. It's sort of like, having to simplify, whatever, that's not-
Dedeker: So the C is for cow.
Jase: It's okay. Okay, C is For cow. Good, good. What I'm getting at here, though, is that, I think that and this is, again, something that I've changed my mind on over the years of doing this show is just that I don't think truly non hierarchical in the way that we act is realistic or attainable or even a goal to strive for.
I do think that's true when it comes to like a prescriptive hierarchy. If it's a hierarchy that is like being defended from threat via rules or via explicit granting of certain powers to people, then it's like, okay, I think we can enter some problematic territory. And so usually if we talk about non hierarchy, that's what we mean is kind of moving away from the old school model of like, well, because this relationship was first, it should kind of have some extra weapons that it can use against other relationships that might threaten it.
I know that's maybe sort of an aggressive way to think about it, but that's kind of the idea. But I think it's unrealistic to say that all of your relationships will be equal. Just think about your friends. You might love all of them and none of them have power to tell you not to be friends with the others, but you, you don't spend an equal amount of time or have an equal sort of connection with all of your friends.
And so I think just acknowledging that can be a good place to start from so that you're not kind of setting yourself up to try to achieve some, um, some unrealistic thing and maybe. Either doing what Dedeker was saying before, of kind of like saying we're non hierarchical, but actually being kind of shitty because you're just not acknowledging the fact that just the reality exists, that you've got a longer history, you're married, you probably live together.
There's a lot of stuff in place there that makes that relationship different. Versus acknowledging that, much in the same way that you can't undo your past. But by acknowledging it, you can at least be more respectful of that and not take it for granted, I guess is more where I would try to steer this line of questioning.
Dedeker: Maybe the C could be for consulting others.
Emily: I said coexist, I-
Dedeker: Oh,
Jase: Okay, that's fun.
Emily: So, okay, I did couple, and I, it, we're, we're workshopping this-
Dedeker: Okay, it's right. I love, like, you keep, you keep working on it in the background. So, but what I, what I meant by consulting others was that if, it's unclear from the question, if these two already have other partners. It seems like the way they've phrased it could be read both ways. But if you have other partners, can probably tell if there's some couple's privilege at play that is, that is impacting them negatively in particular, right?
So this is a good place for some open conversation, maybe a seat for conversation. I don't know about that. If you're feeling brave, you know, you can go to a partner and ask, like, are there ways where you're feeling left out or less than or by default being deprioritized in certain circumstances and that can that can be a really good conversation.
And also, like Jase was saying, it could be a good conversation just to acknowledge the things that you've identified that are just factors that are there, right? Where maybe you've identified, yeah, because I have a live in partner and my other partner maybe doesn't have a live in partner. That means I have access to certain privileges like having someone around to emotionally process when I'm feeling upset or having someone around to offer touch or having a sense of built in family that sometimes it really can be helpful just to highlight those discrepancies and then use that as a basis for collaboration about how.
You know, your other partner feels about that. Are they upset about that? Are they not? And how the two of you can collaborate? I
Jase: One thing that I do think is worth paying attention to is the amount of assumption of who gets what information. And this is something I've found often with couples who were monogamous before, especially if they're married, there's kind of this assumption that Well, you'll tell me everything about your life that I want to know, right?
About maybe what, what you did sexually with this person, or maybe that I'm someone you can come to when stuff's going on in that other relationship. And there's usually not the assumption that they're going to be doing the same thing with that other partner about you. You know, talking to this other partner about what you do sexually with them, or talking to that other partner about something you're going through or something that's challenging.
And so I think that's one of those areas where there can be some privilege there that it's easy to just forget about because this person's been a really close, important part of your life for a long time. And it's just become that, right? And so just acknowledging that, being aware of it. And that's not to say.
It has to be everyone gets all the stuff shared with them, or maybe you start sharing a little less. It also could just be asking the question and being clear with any new partners about like, hey, what are you okay with me talking to my spouse about in our relationship? So I think that's, that's a good one to be aware of.
I'll have to come up with a word for that one that fits into an acronym. Maybe like privacy.
Emily: Can I, can I give you where I'm at so far? So these are questions to ask yourself, and the acronym is COUPLE. And so, okay, so first of all, you ask yourself, how do we communicate, so there's the C, with one another and others, that we're going to be in a relationship with. The second is, how do we treat our, oh, ongoing relationships?
Dedeker: Okay.
Jase: Okay.
Dedeker: I was gonna go with orgasms, but-
Emily: Oh, that's good, too.
Jase: Good.
Dedeker: Just because it's always good to have that in.
Emily: We're just throwing stuff out.
Dedeker: In the middle of conversations. Yeah.
Emily: Definitely. Then ask yourself, are any of our choices about who or what to prioritize unconscious?
Dedeker: Oh.
Jase: Okay. You slipped, slipped the U back in at the end.
Dedeker: Oh no. Okay. But we can lead with a sense of unconscious, right? This is what this is all about is searching for these unconscious assumptions and default behaviors.
Emily: There you go. Okay, the next one is, do we have an imbalance of power?
Jase: Sure.
Dedeker: Okay. Good.
Emily: Next one, what are our existing life commitments? Because, yeah, just what you talked about right there, Jase, do we have different life commitments? Basically with kids or something, for example, that are causing us to need to be more enmeshed, for whatever-
Jase: Uh, or a house or shared bank accounts.
Dedeker: Okay, okay, Okay, because that, okay, life commitments or maybe legal entwinements.
Emily: Oh, I like that one. Legal entwinements is good. And then finally, what does egalitarian mean to us? But that one, I don't, I don't know if I love that one. Yeah.
Dedeker: Uh, one I wrote down could also talk about do we, do we have economic benefits-
Emily: oh, okay. Yeah.
Dedeker: -that maybe we're not able to extend or not willing to extend to other people? Because that's something too, right? That like if you, because I'm just assuming that you probably live together. That may not be the case. That if you're benefiting from the fact that your housing costs are maybe cheaper because you're living with someone and that means that you're able to afford different things than maybe a partner who's not, that could be something.
I don't know if that's couple specific, but.
Emily: But maybe, yeah.
Jase: Another thing for the P in couple could also be about plans. So another thing that comes up is, who do you check in with when making plans?
Emily: Oh, I like that. Yeah.
Jase: Got a long standing relationship with one person, and so it's common to say, Oh, okay, my friends want to go away for the weekend, let me check in with my wife.
Emily: Yeah.
Jase: Sometimes there can be less of a, my wife wants to go do this thing, let me check in with my boyfriend. and see, you know, just so that he's aware. Again, not like to ask permission, but we often don't extend quite that same amount of, I want your opinion on my scheduling in my life. I don't necessarily think that they will want to have that power, or that that they always should, because sometimes logistically it does need to be someone else, which goes back to my thing before of like, a true non hierarchy I don't think is a very realistic goal to go for, but being aware of that privilege is the point here, right?
Like, being aware that yeah, you're right, I do check in with this person, and I would not assume that I need to do that with someone else. I think that's an important one.
Dedeker: Well, pretty good, Emily, for, for just whipping out an acronym just on the fly. I'm impressed.
Emily: I mean, I was looking up some fun research and also a couple things on Feeld and then polyamoryforus.com,
but yeah.
Jase: You're doing all kinds of research.
Emily: I was just trying.
Dedeker: Speed multiamory episode writing.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: This should be a warning to our listeners that if you pose a challenge to us, we may-
Emily: We're gonna do it.
Dedeker: -not rising to it.
Emily: Exactly, we'll do what we can. But yeah, if any of you out there can find a better acronym or just a better questions to ask , that exist within the word couple, then please let us know.
Dedeker: And it has to. We will accept nothing less than something.
Emily: Or a better acronym. Yeah, a better acronym. That was just one I pulled out of my ass.
Dedeker: If you can make up an acronym for privilege, if you really want to extend-
Emily: Woof. Yeah, good luck with that one.
Dedeker: I don't know, at that point we're getting a little unwieldy.
Jase: That's the problem. If your acronym is too long or too hard to remember what the letters are, then it's, it's not really helpful anymore as an acronym. It's, that's like, yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, think about it, give it some thought. You also don't have to rise to the challenge like we did just because Emily gave it.
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: But I do want to just come back to real quick, like, what's important is just to be open to being aware of things and be open to considering them as they come up. That the whole point of privilege is that you're not aware of it. And so you just got to pay attention to try to start noticing it and hearing feedback you get from people.
And just don't go for that, like, well, no, this is just normal. Be willing to question. And it doesn't always mean you have to change it, but just be aware of it and have those conversations.