480 - Communication Hacks: Remastered
Throwback to 2018!
During this episode, we go over three different communication tools that are powerful tools for any relationship. Even simply being aware of them can be helpful! We last covered these in 2018, and they have continued to be helpful tools for all of us. Microscripts even has its own chapter in our book!
Switchtracking
Switchtracking is when a conversation starts on one track but changes to an entirely different track due to an emotional reaction or feedback. It is usually unintentional, and causes people to talk past each other without resolving issues. Switchtracking can happen in all sorts of contexts and hierarchical relationships as well, such as a boss and a subordinate.
To avoid switchtracking, consider:
Practice mindfulness and being present in the moment.
Recognize cognitive biases in oneself and one's partner.
Compartmentalize different issues and address them logically.
Focus on the positive motives of your partner.
Bids
Bids are any attempt from one partner to another for attention, affirmation, affection, or positive connection. Research has shown that couples who stayed married after six years reacted positively to each other's bids around 86% of the time, while divorced couples averaged only 33% positive reactions.
There are both verbal and nonverbal bids, and accepting them whenever possible or at least acknowledging them if you’re unable to immediately engage can help strengthen a relationship.
Taking some time to consider timing and your partner’s receptiveness (i.e. don’t disturb them when they’re focused if historically they don’t react well to that), and if you have to turn down a bid or even if you just don’t want to take it, offering a positive reaction while doing so is also a good idea.
Microscripts
Microscripts are a codified way to communicate that transcends emotions, using a short phrase to sum up a lot of meaning. They can be especially helpful for repetitive communication breakdowns or arguments, but they also require a certain amount of self-awareness and “us vs. the problem” mentality.
Some examples might include:
“Ready!” or “Listo!” to acknowledge a request for help, even if you’re not excited about the task.
"Why, thank you" as a way to accept a compliment graciously, even if you’re not feeling it.
"Woof, woof" to indicate excitement rather than stress when processing ideas out loud.
"Thank you for your honesty" to acknowledge and appreciate a partner's vulnerability, even if you’re needing time to process emotions.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we are stepping into a time machine and we are bringing you back an episode from spring of 2018. Six years ago is when we recorded this episode originally about our communication booster pack, which is where each of the three of us presented a different communication tool or communication hack to improve your relationships.
Those were switch tracking, bids, and microscripts. Microscripts actually ended up becoming a full chapter in our book. Switch tracking and bids are both mentioned in the last chapter of our book where we talk about some extra tools by other people. I was realizing that, one, this episode was recorded quite a long time ago. This is a very old episode. 168, I think. We're now on 460-something, right?
Emily: 100.
Dedeker: I remember the newbie days.
Emily: I remember exactly where we were. We were in your friend, Eric's apartment.
Dedeker: The apartment in LA.
Emily: Exactly. In LA. All on this weird couch, this long couch, recording this episode. Amazing how long ago it was.
Jase: I know. Truly. I was realizing that we reference switch tracking and bids quite a lot on this show. You've probably heard us mention those. As well as microscripts, of course. While microscripts, you can learn about in our book, I realize that in our first nine toolkit episodes, we don't really have one there talking about microscripts. We haven't done a presentation of switch tracking and bids in their entirety in quite a while, and so I thought this would be a really cool one to go back, remaster, do some re-editing, clean it up a little bit. That's what this is.
Of course, if you're interested in this and would like to read about it as well, all three of these tools do show up in our book, especially microscripts. You can learn about those in our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships, romantic or otherwise. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book or go get it at your local bookstore or even check it out in your library. Of course, there are our first nine episodes of the show where we cover some of our most widely used and shared communication tools. Maybe that will become the first 10 episodes if this one gets added into that.
On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're opening our communication hacks booster pack. The three of us are going to walk through and walk each other through a communication tip that we recently discovered and thought was super awesome. Also, Dedeker is sick-
Dedeker: I'm sick.
Jase: -and it sucks.
Dedeker: I'm sorry.
Emily: We're about to go on tour, so get better now.
Dedeker: I'm doing my best. I'm glad that I'm sick now rather than while we're on tour.
Jase: Seriously.
Dedeker: I'm going to try my best to not be too sniffly in your ears,-
Emily: Thank you.
Dedeker: -dear listeners. I can't make any promises though. I'm really sorry.
Jase: I'm sure they appreciate it. The idea for this episode, there were a few different things that have come up that are communication hacks or communication tools that weren't quite big enough to fill an entire episode and so we said, hey, why don't we each take one of these and share them with each other for all of y'all?
Emily: Because communication, as everybody who's polyamorous knows, is probably the number one thing that we say that you need. Communication, communication.
Dedeker: You also know that on this show we love hacking things. We love shortcuts and we love tools, and we love acronyms. We don't have any acronyms for this episode.
Emily: No.
Jase: Oh.
Dedeker: We do love that shit.
Jase: We do love acronyms a lot, and alliterative names for things.
Emily: That's true.
Jase: Who wants to start us off today?
Emily: I'm the first one. Josh, my partner, told me about an NPR podcast that he was listening to, which was The Hidden Brain. On it they talked about this amazing thing called switch tracking. Jase came up with a bunch of different names for it.
Dedeker: Is that the thing that they do with railroads?
Emily: Exactly.
Dedeker: Is that track switching? That's track switching, right?
Emily: Switch tracking.
Jase: I thought that was train spotting.
Dedeker: Train spotting?
Emily: No. That's an Ewan McGregor movie.
Dedeker: I thought that was crosshatching.
Emily: That's an Ewan McGregor movie. Moving on. Also, Danny Boyle. What it is is that it's a thing in communication that causes a breakdown in communication. Someone may give you feedback and then your reaction to that feedback just completely changes the subject. The conversation starts on one track and then because of somebody's emotional reaction or some feedback, it changes to an entirely different track. Then people are essentially talking past each other at that point.
Jase: I'm confused.
Dedeker: I have a question.
Jase: You go ahead.
Dedeker: Is this something that people do intentionally? As in you bring up some kind of criticism about me and so I intentionally try to fog the issue by bringing up something else, or is this an unintentional thing that people do?
Emily: I would say usually it's a completely unintentional thing.
Dedeker: Oh really?
Emily: I mean it's a thing that I think happens a lot in communication where you end up saying completely different things. It's as though you're talking to each other but at each other and nobody is actually getting through anything that they're speaking about because you are both on completely different wavelengths. I created-- Yes.
Jase: I just want to clarify. This is different from just changing topics. This is something else.
Emily: It is essentially changing topics but also changing the subject in the middle of the argument that may be happening, but you may not think that that's what's occurring. You may think, I'm addressing an issue that I think needs to be resolved. Then your partner may be like, I have an issue that I think is related, and yet you two are maybe speaking about something completely different, and then therefore talking past to each other.
Dedeker: It's like you bring up an issue and my response to that issue is to bring up a different issue that-
Emily: Correct.
Dedeker: -in my head I think is the same thing, but it's maybe not actually the same thing, and then we're both arguing actually-
Emily: In circles.
Dedeker: -in circles. Then maybe for entirely different issues, not realizing that-
Emily: We're doing that.
Dedeker: -we're doing that, I'd say.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Can you give us an example of this?
Emily: I created an example for you. You two are going to say the example.
Dedeker: You made a script for us?
Emily: Yes, I did. I color-coded it.
Dedeker: You wrote the script?
Emily: I color-coded it and everything.
Dedeker: You became a screenwriter. Wow.
Emily: I'm not good, just so everybody knows.
Jase: Is this the first multiamory radio drama?
Dedeker: Radio drama.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: You need to get some foley up in here.
Emily: The two of you are going to be the radio dramatists.
Dedeker: Wow.
Emily: You both have been actors in your day.
Dedeker: We both have gotten in some arguments too.
Emily: I expect greatness.
Dedeker: Just a handful.
Emily: I expect real human drama right now.
Dedeker: Gosh. Doing it cold. A cold reading, though.
Emily: You're cold reading.
Jase: Cold reading.
Emily: You took a bunch of classes on this.
Dedeker: Yes, I've taken some cold reading classes.
Emily: There you go. Come on. Give it to me, baby.
Dedeker: My instrument isn't at 100%.
Jase: Can you set the scene for us maybe?
Emily: The scene is set. A kitchen table, two people quietly eating their dinner, a couple, and gently a person places his fork down.
Jase: I'm trying do some foley face.
Emily: Exactly. Then he clears his throat and says the following.
Jase: Honey, I want to talk to you about something. I really feel like our time together has been limited and when we do see each other, it hasn't been the quality time that I need when I'm with you. You're generally on the phone, texting your other partners. You seem pretty spaced out when we're together.
Dedeker: Now I take a long drag of a cigarette.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: That's what will explain my husky voice this week.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: See, I don't understand why you aren't appreciative of the time that we spend together. Now that Anna and I broke up, I see you three times a week pretty regularly and you aren't appreciative of the time that I spend with you or the things that I do for you during that time. Instead, I feel like you're always focusing on the negative or what you're not getting.
Jase: I really just think the time we're spending together hasn't felt that special or fulfilling. I think that we need to focus on that right now.
Dedeker: I know, and I'm saying that if I'm with you and I'm around you, then that should be appreciated. You're always nitpicking me with all the ways that I'm failing you instead of focusing on the positive. I never feel like anything that I do is right in your eyes.
Jase: I just want to feel like we're getting the best possible time together that we can.
Dedeker: I know. I want to feel like you appreciate the time that I do spend with you and what I do for you.
Emily: End scene.
Dedeker: Oh, drama.
Jase: It was too real.
Emily: Exactly. Oh man. This scene illustrates Jase, he just really feels like he's not getting the best quality time. Again, when we've talked about things like what our love language is, maybe Jase's is quality time.
Dedeker: Jase's complaint in this situation is the time that we spend together-
Emily: Is not felt.
Dedeker: -is not quality time.
Emily: Exactly.
Dedeker: Like you're checked out during that time, and I want you to be present.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: Essentially.
Emily: Then Dedeker is saying, oh my God, you're always nitpicking me. You are not appreciative of the time that I am giving you and all the things that I feel like I am doing for you.
Dedeker: I'm moving my schedule around, and priority is time together, but you're nitpicking me about being on the phone.
Jase: What I think is interesting about this is from the point of view of my character here, from my point of view, the conversation is about our quality time and how I don't think we're spending it. To me it just sounds like she's avoiding the issue or she's getting defensive, or she doesn't want to admit to it because she must know that she's wrong-
Emily: Totally.
Jase: -or something. That's how it feels from my point of view because I think the conversation is about our quality time that we're spending together and how it hasn't been as quality as I'd like.
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: Then from your point of view in that story--
Dedeker: For me it's about you always criticizing me or you not appreciating me. I see. It's like the fact that I hear your criticism and my response to it is to bring up a new issue. Not intentionally being like, I'm going to try to throw him off the trail. Just being, this feels relevant to this but actually it's an entirely different issue.
Emily: Yes. Instead of staying with his issue and trying to address that specifically, you're saying, you always do this to me and you are always nitpicking me or not being kind to me, or being
Dedeker: I feel like I've done this a billion times-
Emily: Sure. I certainly have.
Dedeker: -and had this done to me a billion times also in arguments in relationships.
Emily: I absolutely feel like I have as well.
Jase: What's interesting about it is that unlike when I was asking before, is it changing the subject? Kind of, but it's that the two people are both talking about a different thing back and forth to each other.
Emily: Exactly. Nothing ever gets resolved.
Jase: It's not like someone brings up something else and now we're talking about that. It's like we're just, like you said, talking past each other.
Emily: Yes. One person stays on one track the entire argument. The other person stays on the other track and never the two shall meet.
Dedeker: I see.
Emily: That's the issue.
Jase: Both feel like the other's just not admitting or not really being there and having the conversation, because in the other person's mind we're talking about something different.
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: I feel like I've definitely seen this a lot.
Emily: A lot of times, neither person is willing to give way or really even address the fact that we're talking about two different things here. Honestly, they may not even see that in the moment. Something that the podcast talked about is the idea of hierarchy in a situation such as a boss in a subordinate relationship. The thing is a person who's the boss can talk about, you are doing this wrong and this wrong, and this wrong.
Then the subordinate, even though they're sitting there being silent, they can be switch tracking in their mind and saying, you, the boss, everybody actually hates you and you are a micromanager, and blah, blah, blah. They may not even be hearing the criticism that the boss is giving them and instead just switching to another thing altogether in their mind and--
Jase: Like you're criticizing the source in your head rather than listening to the content of what's being said.
Emily: Correct. Exactly. We could even do that in our own relationships.
Jase: Oh, for sure.
Emily: Say we're sitting there and being silent but in our head we're being like, you're being ridiculous.
Jase: You're one to talk.
Emily: This is stupid
Dedeker: you don't want to talk or why is he bringing this up now?
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: What's the motive behind this?
Dedeker: What's the motive? What is he really trying to say or--?
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Wow. Totally.
Emily: Something that they also talked about is that it's often way easier to hear a criticism or to even hear a suggestion from somebody who's not actually really involved with you. Someone who's not even your best friend, just some stranger, or especially someone who's not a loved one. They gave an example that some stranger told a man at his work, maybe you should think about doing this.
He came home and told his wife, and his wife was like, I've been telling you to do that thing for 10 years. The thing is a highly insightful comment might be threatening to someone who we're in love with. If Dedeker, you were even to say something to me, I may feel threatened by that just because I care about you and because I really care about your opinion, but some stranger, I might be like, oh my God, they're the second coming. They know what I need.
Dedeker: I think that for me, there's some things that I've uncovered in therapy that partners have said to me or maybe a parent has said to me or a friend has said to me. It's not until I'm in therapy that the therapist says it and then I'm like, oh yes, no, that makes total sense. I do totally do that all the time.
Emily: That's super objective viewpoints.
Dedeker: Just because of the fact that depending on who the source is that you're more likely to be, I guess, doing that switch tracking in your mind that gets you out of the mode of actually being able to hear that feedback or that thought, or that opinion.
Emily: Totally. This is something that they said, and I'm not entirely certain if I agree with it, but they said the people who love us the most are also the ones who want to change us the most. I'd like to think that that's not necessarily the case. If we are in these situations like this where we have a habit that happens over and over again and then our partner's the one who's saying, I don't want you to do that anymore, that is a behavior that they are in essence trying to change.
Jase: Depending on the context, if you just say they're the ones who want to change us the most, it sounds bad. If you did think about it like, Emily, I keep seeing you do this thing that makes you unhappy. I want you to change more than a stranger does because I care, because I'm interested. It's not like I want you to change who you are as a person, but more like I want you to change for the best for yourself.
Emily: I agree. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Jase: I can see in that context.
Emily: Exactly. It's something to be aware of within the connotation and the context of the-
Dedeker: I think it makes sense.
Emily: -questions we have.
Dedeker: When you're in a relationship, when you're with someone that you love, that's the person you're going to be most likely asking to change something, even if it's not changing who you are but if it's, this behavior that you do really upsets me or this way that you communicate really doesn't work for me. Can you change that? Can you try this? Can you do this differently? That's when we get into feedback, maybe critical feedback, and that's when we get into the switch tracking loop, I suppose.
Emily: Totally.
Jase: Makes sense.
Dedeker: Is there any way to avoid this? Because I'm trying to think about and I just can't even--
Emily: Yes. There's a couple. They talked about mindfulness. When I looked this up, Psychology Today had a great article. There's a man named Jon Kabat-Zinn, who is the creator of mindfulness-based stress reduction. He operationally defines mindfulness as the awareness that arises from paying attention on purpose in the present moment, non-judgmentally, which is really difficult to do in real life, but it's something to be aware of and to try to do.
Dedeker: It's not impossible though.
Emily: No.
Dedeker: I feel like we talk about mindfulness techniques a lot on this show. It's definitely not impossible to do.
Emily: Again, it's something through meditation you can just practice and become much better at obviously, but in addition it doesn't avoid emotions, but it just holds them in attentiveness so you can recognize your own emotion but then not necessarily need to act upon it at all times. It also talked about bias recognition. Because we have talked about cognitive biases on the show. Just to be aware of them within this and to also know that your partner may have a cognitive bias as well and that might be affecting the things that they're saying to you. That might also be affecting the things that you are receiving or what you're saying to them.
Jase: It feels like this could be one of those things that even just knowing that this thing exists mixed with a little bit of mindfulness and awareness might be enough to-- when you're in that conversation and you're frustrated with, why are they not acknowledging what I'm saying to them, especially if you've been able to talk about this with them before I could see it being like, I think we're doing that switch tracking thing. Let's talk about both. What's the thing you want to talk about? Cool. Let's write that down and we'll get to that, but can we first talk about this other thing?
Emily: Totally.
Jase: Or vice versa, right?
Emily: Yes. If you can compartmentalize each different thing that you're speaking about and talk about it in a logical manner, then I think that that would be best.
Dedeker: Jase, one time we did kind of a mini emergency radar around one particularly very emotionally charged issue that ended up being a number of smaller issues, that I think we found that we had to be like, let's actually have a mini radar. Let's make a little mini agenda of all the different pieces of this and then just kind of tackle them one by one.
Emily: That's great.
Dedeker: Then did the normal steps of like action points and then appreciation at the end of things like that.
Emily: I also think what we've done with radar in, again, compartmentalizing sex, health, just anything, family, all of those things, that also makes-- obviously there can be mini arguments within each of them, but I think that that leaves space for those specific things to talk about them in a safe environment.
Dedeker: So that it's not like, "I feel frustrated that you keep turning me down for sex." "You never do the dishes."
Emily: It's like, is this really about this?
Dedeker: I think I see that a lot, and I've definitely personally experienced this a lot when you have arguments where the past keeps coming into play as well. That feels like a huge example of switch tracking where everything's attached to everything else in the past, and so that's why it can come up and be really hard to stay focused on what the actual issue is in the present moment.
Emily: Totally. Just the last thing I was going to say is to try to focus on the positive motives of your partner come into every situation, and even if somebody feels like they're talking past you, with the idea that they are putting a positive spin on it, that they want the best for you, and that they want the best for that situation. Just to hold space and make your disagreements come to a place where you both can agree on something. Even if in the moment it seems they're talking past you or getting defensive, maybe take a second and look at that, and then put your own arguments aside. Then be like, fine, we'll talk about this for a moment.
Dedeker: Of course, easier said than done. With practice, definitely possible. I think also, especially if you can get your partner or partners looped into this concept, again, it's an awareness thing that it's something that you can, and it'll be like, you know what? I think we're switch tracking right now.
Emily: Totally.
Dedeker: Can we reset or sit down, make a list of what other things we need to hit here, to be able to have that stop button in the middle of an argument with things are starting to get heated or cyclical, or things like that.
Emily: That comes with mindfulness as well.
Dedeker: Definitely.
Jase: I think just to acknowledge, the fact that you brought up something different than what I was trying to talk about means that's probably worth talking about too. That it's not just like, stop that.
Dedeker: Right, not just stop that.
Emily: We're not allowed to talk about that right now.
Dedeker: Exactly.
Jase: It's cool though. I think that's definitely a useful one. I'm going to be on the lookout for this one.
Emily: Definitely something to think about. I know, right?
Dedeker: cross-hatching. I mean, switch tracking.
Emily: Cross-hatching.
Dedeker: I mean, train spotting.
Jase: What did I call it, switch backing or something?
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: Nickelbacking.
Jase: Nickebacking.
Emily: Then we said Nickelback, and then we talked about Christian magazines.
Dedeker: CTO? Christian magazines.
Jase: It was a long-time
Dedeker: That was a wild ride. Anyway, speaking of tangents. Let's go on a quick tangent to talk about the best ways that people can support our show.
Jase: Hey, there. Jase from the future back again. Before we go on to the bid section, I want to take a quick moment to just ask for your help supporting this show keeping this content coming out into the world every week for free. The best way that you can do that is by supporting us directly on our Patreon. If you go to multiamory.com/join, you can get links to that.
Then, of course, taking a moment and listening to our sponsors. They do directly help support this show and keep it going and make it so it's available to everyone for free. If you please take a moment, check them out if they're interesting. Use our links, use our promo codes, and that will help them know that it's worth advertising on our show, and they'll keep doing it.
All right. I'm next.
Emily: Yay.
Dedeker: What you got for us?
Jase: I'm going to talk to you about bids.
Dedeker: Like bidding on a cattle?
Emily: $1, $2, $3, $4.
Jase: There you go, yes.
Emily: No, not on cattle.
Jase: You'd make a great auctioneer.
Dedeker: They're bidding, they're auctioning them off to farm sanctuaries.
Emily: Yay.
Jase: Good. Yes.
Emily: Thank you.
Jase: Bids. What I mean by that is a bid is any attempt from one partner to another for attention, affirmation, affection, or any other positive connection. This is something that was discovered and codified by The Gottman Institute. We've talked about The Gottman Institute before.
Emily: Quite a few times.
Jase: They're the ones who came up with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse of a relationship. There are also the stuff we talked about in episode on the science of happy relationships. A lot of that was from The Gottman Institute. They've done some really interesting things. It's very-
Dedeker: They're relatively heteronormative.
Jase: -heteronormative and mononormative. These just study specifically marriages with the assumption that the only good outcome is staying together, and the bad outcome is not being together anymore. Given that, there's still a lot of really cool research that's come out of this. This particular one came out of a study where they interviewed couples right around they had just gotten married. Then six years later, they followed up with these couples. What they found is that the couples who stayed married after those six years or were still married after six years, they reacted positively to each other's bids around 86% of the time.
Emily: Oh.
Jase: That couples that had divorced averaged only 33% of the time, so pretty huge difference in terms of how often. The term they use is turn toward each other rather than turn away. If someone comes in for some sort of affirmation, affection, or attention, do you acknowledge that, do you engage with that, or do you turn away from that?
Dedeker: My question is they codify bids as these particular interactions, right?
Jase: Yes.
Dedeker: Okay, but like what?
Jase: Did you have a question? This can look a number of different ways. The basic example that they start with are verbal things are actually things you say. There's also nonverbal one. We'll talk about the verbal ones first. Basically, the way they break it down is there's things that you can say to your partner, but then there's actually another meaning behind it. The first example that they gave is, how do I look? The actual subtext is, can I have your attention? It's not that I want an answer to a question, but I want you to pay attention to me for a moment to get your opinion about something.
Dedeker: It's just like, look at me.
Emily: Not like, tell me, I look great. Just like, love me.
Jase: That would probably do good too. The subtext there is, I want your attention. Or, let's put the kids to bed, the subtext there is help me put the kids to bed. Just saying I want your help with something. This one's a little interesting. It's starting off with something like, I talked to my sister today, or I talked to my mom today. The subtext there is, I want to have a conversation with you about that.
Dedeker: Will you talk to me?
Jase: Right. Will you chat with me about this?
Emily: About it, yes.
Jase: Because otherwise, it's just like, cool. That's the difference-
Emily: It was great.
Jase: -between not turning toward your partner, not accepting the bid, is to be like, cool, honey. I feel like we've all done that in some extent at some time, where you're just in your own zone and you're not acknowledging that.
Dedeker: I feel it can get very subtle because it could be something like, I really want to show you this YouTube video I saw today. Or, oh, there's a show on Netflix I've been really wanting to check out. It could be multiple. It could be like, can I have some of your time? Can we cuddle on the couch together? Can we laugh at this show together?
Jase: It's the time and attention, and affection, and all those things that are part of it that are the important part of this transaction. Maybe it's bad to call it that, but the important part of this bid--
Dedeker: Communication is transactional. It is back and forth.
Jase: A more subtle version of this would be something like, I had a really terrible meeting with my boss today. The subtext there is, I want to process this with you.
Emily: I want to decompress.
Dedeker: I want some kind of triforce around this.
Jase: Exactly. I was going to say, in their example here, they say the subtext is, will you help me de-stress? I'm like, knowing the triforce a little better, yes, maybe, but let's be clear about how they want you to help them do that. In either case, it's acknowledging that and going for that. Something that we were talking about too is how can you do this in a way even if you can't say yes to that bid right then? Say you're right in the middle of something, and it's like, oh, my gosh, have I shown you this YouTube video? Or did you see this meme?
It's that question of whenever possible, can you say yes to that? Can you be like, sure, I'll take a moment to look at that? Or if you can't, at least do what you can to turn toward that bid and acknowledge it, and be like, oh, that sounds amazing. Can I watch it in 20 minutes once I'm done with this? The difference between that and, honey, stop bugging me. I'm busy. That's
Emily: That's very big.
Jase: -pretty huge.
Dedeker: I have to say. As soon as I learned about this whole bids thing, it really changed the way that I looked at these interactions with my partners. I saw them as much more significant than I ever did before. Realizing when I say to someone, no, I'm not interested in that, or, no, that's not my type of show, I'm never going to watch that, or whatever. Actually realizing the impact of that. Of that being--
Emily: Because it's not necessarily about that thing.
Dedeker: Exactly. It's not being about the thing of it being about--
Emily: Care about me in this moment.
Dedeker: Yes, about turning toward my partner instead of away. Again, it doesn't mean that I have to watch every single Netflix show that my partner recommends.
Emily: Yes, you do.
Dedeker: It is about finding a way that's not just a shutdown.
Emily: With bigger things too like sex, for instance. That can be a cumulative effect if you constantly say, no, no, no, no, no. Potentially.
Jase: That's the other thing I want to get to. Here's the other side of it, is being a better bid giver, bid offerer.
Emily: Sure.
How to bid better.
Dedeker: Just a better bidder.
Jase: Because, like with things like sex or any of these examples, something that seems very small and simple, like, "How do I look? I just want your attention, I want you to acknowledge me for a moment," that seems pretty reasonable that you could take a moment to say yes to that and give that. However, with something like sex or doing a specific chore at a certain time, or going out to do something, that can be a little harder because maybe you don't have time.
Maybe you just really don't want to. That it can become a little bit trickier. What I think they don't address as much in this but I think is incredibly important, and this is something that we've all talked about a little bit earlier, is this idea of these couples where they see them accepting each other's bids much more often. I think that part of that is because they're better at knowing when to make the bids.
Dedeker: When to make the bid also. Interesting.
Emily: That's really a good point.
Jase: I think sex is a good example of that, where it's getting out of your own head of just, I want this thing right now. I'm in the mood for this thing right now. To combining that with, what am I seeing how my partner's feeling? How do I know from interacting with them before when they're more or less likely to be interested in this? Have they even told me specifically, I don't like doing that in the morning or something?
Can you take a little step, it goes back to the mindfulness thing, but can you take a little step outside of just your own thoughts and your own desires to go, is this something that I think they'd be receptive to right now? Then approaching it then, or being like, I'll wait and maybe talk about that more later. Obviously this is something where, like with sex, hopefully you're having those conversations in your relationship radars and can get better with that. I think that's a good example.
Dedeker: We had a big discussion about this before this episode about, how do you say no to a bid still in a way that's turning toward your partner? I think for me, when it comes to something like sex, if I have a partner who pitches sex or tosses offer-- we don't know what it is. Is it offering a bid? Is it giving a bid? Places a bid?
Jase: We should have figured out the terminology.
Emily: Place a bid.
Dedeker: Places a bid on sex.
Jase: I'll wager $5 we have sex.
Dedeker: If I don't want to have sex at that moment, of finding out what's the way to make sure that the message is still, I think you're sexy. I do enjoy having sex with you, just not right now.
Emily: There's a big difference between just the outright saying no, or saying, I am interested in something with you. Maybe not necessarily that, but let's perhaps have an intimate moment. Whether that just being affectionate to one another, words of affirmation, or laying in bed naked together and being kissy kissy.
Dedeker: Because I know I've definitely, as far as the sex one goes, I've definitely been really bad at rejecting the bit of being really rude or being really impatient, or just even pushing their hands off my body. Just being like, ugh. Definitely more destructive, rejecting of bids versus being able to be like, oh, I do really like when you touch me that way, but can we do something different? Or I'm not feeling great, could we do this at such and such time instead? Things like that.
Jase: I think that example you gave is really interesting, because I've definitely had times where I'm working on something and a partner would come up behind me and put their hands on my shoulder or maybe kiss my ear or something. When I'm really focused on something, to me that's like a, ugh, God, get off of me, stop touching me. Because it's distracting.
Dedeker: Because you're in the zone.
Jase: Yes, because I'm in the zone. I did have a realization with that one a few years ago where I noticed that I was doing that and being like, why am I reacting this way to something that normally I would like?
Emily: Totally.
Jase: Getting to that place of being able to combine, taking myself out of where I'm focused for a moment just long enough to appreciate that and be like, hey, and give a little bit of that affection back and be like, I'm really focused on this though right now, so please let me stick to this, and oh, we're going to have dinner in an hour, let's talk then and let's see how we feel afterward. Rather than being like, do you want to make out for a little bit instead right now? That just doesn't seem reasonable to me as an alternative.
Dedeker: Guess it depends on the context.
Jase: That's the example that comes up that I know has happened in my life.
Dedeker: I see.
Jase: Your example of just pushing them away versus, oh that's really sweet, I like that, but I'm working on something else right now. That's hugely different.
Emily: Again, having mindfulness over this situation on both ends, I think is really important.
Dedeker: I will say it's definitely made me a lot more likely to watch people's YouTube videos. Just once I realized I was like--
Emily: Fine, I'll watch it.
Dedeker: This isn't about the video. This is about having this minuscule moment of connection. That's like, whatever. Even if I'm not--
Emily: That's why you guys watch all the YouTube videos I send you, all the figure skating videos.
Dedeker: Exactly. Even if I'm not interested in the subject or maybe this isn't my favorite thing to watch or whatever. It's more valuable to be like, I chose to connect with you for these two minutes of this video. Rather than, I'm really not that busy of a person that I can't take two minutes just to have this micro moment of connection with you.
Jase: That's interesting though. Because I was trying to come up with an example of a different sort of situation that's not sex that involves turning down a bid and how you can do that while still giving that interaction and making it a positive one. I think that YouTube one is a good one because Emily sends us a lot of figure skating, YouTube videos.
Dedeker: They are great.
Jase: Other things. Sometimes they're also-
Dedeker: They are wonderful.
Jase: -cute animals. Both of you guys send a lot of cute animal videos to our group thread. A lot of times when I'm at work I'm like, no, I really can't take two minutes to do this. Or I don't feel like that would be appropriate right now for me at work. With this idea of bids, I have tried to at least acknowledge the fact that you posted it rather than just let it sit there in silence-
Emily: I appreciate that.
Jase: -and be like, oh, wow, that looks really cute. I'm excited to check that out later.
Emily: Aw. I like that.
Jase: I feel like you guys have probably seen me respond with something along those lines. That's that meeting in the middle. The other example I came up with here was person number one says, oh, do you want go--
Dedeker: You didn't write a script first, did you?
Jase: It's right here if you want to--
Emily: Where?
Jase: No, I didn't write a script for you. I'm just going to do it.
Dedeker: Fine. Just go ahead.
Emily: Just do it.
Jase: Person number one says, do you want to go clothes shopping with me today? Now, you are person number two and you really don't want to do that. You have either stuff you want to do today. Maybe it's not even that you can't, you just really don't want to. You could either just be like, ugh, I really don't want to do that, or, I'm busy. Not only is that saying no, but it's also not engaging with the person with the subtext of what they're trying to say. An alternative would be to say, oh, that's cool. Did you have something fun that you want to get? Have a little bit of conversation where you can say, I can't go today. Or I really don't feel like going, but that's really cool that you want to get something. I'm excited to see what you get. Giving them at least--
Dedeker: It's still like, I'm giving you my attention, I'm still seeing you, I'm still engaged.
Jase: Even if I'm not able to do the thing that you want.
Dedeker: Interesting.
Jase: That I'm at least not just being like, no, stop bugging me about going clothes shopping. Instead seeing they want me to go clothes shopping because they want to connect with me. They want to talk about these things with me. Trying to find a way to give some of that.
Dedeker: Interesting.
Emily: Now I'm never going to send you all YouTube videos again.
Jase: No, I love them.
Dedeker: No, you should. They're great.
Jase: I do watch them later.
Dedeker: I do watch them later too, often. Actually, I usually watch them in the moment.
Emily: You do.
Dedeker: Sometimes I get back to them later. Especially if it's a cute animal video.
Jase: See, I'm more likely to watch the figure skating ones than the cute animals actually.
Dedeker: Interesting.
Emily: Interesting. I'm surprised. Maybe I should just send them to your private thread.
Jase: Future Jase or rather present day Jase. I guess to them it's future Jase, but to you it's present day Jase.
Emily: That's some weird time-space continuum.
Jase: Time travel gets confusing. Exactly. I'll keep this brief so we don't accidentally form any paradoxes or anything like that. This is just another moment to step in and say how much we love our Patreons. We have Patreons who get ad-free episodes, who get early releases. We of course have our amazing private discord and Facebook communities and monthly video processing groups, so many cool things. The level of support that this community has for each other is really inspiring and just such a cool place to be. If you're not part of it already, go check it out at multiamory.com/join. Then of course take a moment, check out our sponsors for this show. If they seem interesting, use our promo codes and help support our show.
Emily: It's Dedeker's turn.
Dedeker: Now it's my turn. This is something that I came up with a name for it. I don't know if there's an official name.
Emily: No.
Jase: We collectively came up with the name.
Dedeker: We collaboratively came up with a name for it.
Emily: It's okay. Dedeker's the alpha.
Dedeker: Oh my God. The recurring in-joke of Multiamory. We collaboratively came up with a name for this. I don't know if there's a set name for this phenomenon or not. If you the listener have heard of something like this, please send us an email and let us know. We decided to call this micro scripts. This goes in line with some of the other communication hacks that we've come up with previously like radar, like the triforce of communication, like movies, which, by the way, if you haven't listened to those episodes, go back and listen to them so you can understand all of our references that we make.
It'll change your life, I promise. I personally, I definitely have a huge thing about ritual. I don't mean pagan rituals. Those are fine. I have a thing about incorporating ritual into communication, which is like the hack, like the tools that we develop, which is finding a codified way to communicate that can transcend your absurd emotions essentially. That's why we came up with radar and with the triforce, and all these things, is the idea that we know that communication can get messy. When emotions get involved, it can get even messier. Figuring out a formula, something that you and your partner can follow together to find a way--
Emily: To make you a Vulcan.
Dedeker: To make you a Vulcan, which is always my ultimate goal for everyone on this planet.
Jase: Oh my God, stop. No, but seriously though, it's like something to lean on when things get difficult.
Dedeker: Exactly, something to lean on when things are starting to get heated or difficult, or things like that. This micro script thing, and I think the triforce counts as this as well, is that it's like this, almost like a code phrase.
Emily: One, two, three.
Dedeker: Exactly. It's a code phrase essentially that sums up a lot of meaning in a very short phrase. I think micro scripts are very helpful if you are finding that you and your partner get into a lot of repetitive communication breakdowns, like the switch tracking thing, or repetitive argument, or a repetitive script in general of a particular argument always plays out the same way. That you bring up this and then your partner brings up this, and then inevitably you bring up this and then it goes to this point.
You're starting to have the same argument over and over, or the same little fights crop up about the same things over and over. It does take some self-awareness to recognize your patterns, to be able to sit down with your partner and be able to recognize, oh, I noticed that we keep arguing about chores, for instance, or we keep arguing about, who's going to make dinner? Or whatever. Those are relatively small things.
It does take the willingness to actually sit down and figure those things out on a radar, or some kind of regularly established check-in is great for this, of being able to sit down and actually take inventory of, these are the things that we fought about in the past month, or this is something that keeps coming up in our conversations and how can we resolve this? I think the most important part, and we did talk about this in our conflict crash course episode, is that it requires changing the mentality around particular points of conflict so that it's an us versus the problem dynamic, versus you versus me. Does that make sense to all y'all?
Jase: It does, but I feel like I'm going to be the audience member right now who's going, cool, all this stuff sounds great, but what the fuck are micro scripts? Please tell me what this actually is.
Dedeker: I think that it's easier to explain with examples. For instance, I'm going to use an example of my sister in her marriage. My sister and her husband have been together for 200 years, it feels like.
Emily: They have some chillings.
Dedeker: I have to say, they actually are honestly one of the few examples in my personal life of people who've been married for a long time that I actually really admire.
Emily: Oh, lovely.
Dedeker: I've seen them through thick and thin, through arguments and times when things feel good and I actually really admire them. What she shared with me is they were finding that they kept getting into a lot of fights about nothing just because they were crabbing at each other. An example would be maybe she'd be like, hey, can you go outside and bring the trash cans back in? He would get up from the couch and be like, ugh, fine. Then she would see his negative reaction and be like, why are you all cranky? Then he'd be like, I'm not cranky, I just don't want to do this.
Then it gets into this back and forth of them just crabbing at each other because they're both tired and cranky, and it turns into a fight about nothing, totally not a necessary fight. Not a fight that's having protective communication, just them crabbing at each other. I've definitely experienced that many times in my relationship also. They sat down, they realized this was a problem. They realized it was a pattern. They decided, we got to figure out a way to have a different script essentially for this fight or this argument.
What they do now is they decided if one of them asks the other for a favor, which is a bid to a certain extent, one of them bids, asking for help, then the other person, even if they're in the middle of something, or even if they're annoyed, even if they don't want to go out and get the trash cans, instead of it being this, "Oh, okay, fine," but the other one just says, "Ready."
Then goes and does the thing. The way this looks in their house is that my sister will be like, oh, hey, can you help me with something really quick? He'll just be like, ready. That's it. Then she'll be like, oh, you go do this thing. He'll be like, okay. That's it. For some reason in their household, their children are in Spanish immersion school, so it got changed to saying listo instead.
Emily: Now it's listo.
Dedeker: Now it's just listo. I know Jase and I have tried to incorporate this a little bit. It's the kind of thing where it's like you showing up with your sighing and your crappy energy just really doesn't help, so it just gives you a script to follow.
Jase: It's an interesting one too because I could see the criticism being, come on, how fake can you be? It's like, yes.
Emily: Fake it till you make it.
Jase: You both acknowledge that it's fake. I think that's the thing, it's not like some script where you're trying to fool the other person that you are excited to take the trash out.
Dedeker: Exactly. You're not trying to put on an Oscar-winning performance that you are super excited to do this task.
Jase: By doing it, by doing the micro script, you're acknowledging, yes, I'm ready to help you. We both know I probably don't want to do this thing,-
Emily: I'm going to, God damn it.
Jase: -but I'm going to, and I know it's not your fault that we have to take the trash in.
Dedeker: Exactly, I know it's not your fault but we have two adults.
Jase: We have to vacuum or whatever.
Emily: Totally. What's another one?
Dedeker: One that Jase and I came up with. This is a little bit different. I think this came up actually in our radar, was when we came up with this solution, with this particular micro script, is that we found one of us would compliment the other. Maybe I'd say to Jase, oh-- now I can't think of a compliment.
Jase: God damn it.
Emily: You have very nice teeth.
Dedeker: The haircut you got looks really good. You look really handsome today. Jase's response would be like, oh, no, I'm not handsome. I was guilty of the same thing where Jase would be like, oh, you look really nice. I'd be like, oh, I don't feel nice. Oh, I don't feel sexy. Oh, I don't feel attractive. Then sometimes it'll--
Emily: That makes the other person be like, okay.
Dedeker: Sometimes it would end there, sometimes it would end in this back and forth of one person being like, oh no, I'm not attractive. The other person is like, no, you are. The other person would be like, no I'm not. Then that's just not a fun conversation to be in, really. We finally made up a micro script to follow of, if one of us gives a compliment, and the other person's not feeling it, not feeling like they can take the compliment, instead of being like, no, I'm not, they just say, why, thank you.
Emily: That's good.
Dedeker: That's it.
Jase: Sometimes it's like, no, why, thank you. Like you said, it's not like you're trying to fool anyone, but you're acknowledging, right, I should accept this compliment rather than just try to tell you why you're wrong.
Emily: Totally.
Dedeker: You can think of these also as code words. I really love encouraging my clients to come up with some ritual and attach it to a code word. Which is very much like the triforce where it's like triforce number two. Oh, okay, I know what that code word means, I know it means that you need a hug and support and encouragement, and things like that.
Jase: I was just going to say that even something like crosshatching-- wait, switch backing.
Emily: Switch tracking, day-to-day.
Jase: Switch tracking, even something like that, having a label for a thing, is another example of a code word. Iit's not quite a micro script like we're talking about, but it is a code word to be like because you and I have already talked about what this phenomenon is--
Emily: We're nickelbacking right now.
I'm totally going to use that. Holy shit. They're the same person.
Dedeker: Hey, if that helps you, if saying nickelbacking helps you to laugh a little bit in an argument, use it. Use it to help break that tension and get y'all out of it.
Jase: Damn it, I really, really badly wanted to make a joke by singing a Nickelback song and I realized don't know any Nickelback songs.
Dedeker: Thank goodness.
Jase: I probably do, but I don't realize.
Dedeker: We don't need to explore that right now.
Emily: Just don't.
Jase: I probably do, but I don't realize what they are.
Dedeker: We don't need to explore that right now, can I go to my last two examples of my micro script? Another one that we came up with was, there would be times, and again, this was another thing that came up on our radar, when we were willing to sit down and examine our communication patterns. When I found that Jase would have some new idea for something to do with Multiamory or something to do at work. He would start processing it out loud because he's also a spewer who'd be like, oh gosh, but I don't know how I'm going to do this. I'm really not sure how I'm going to do this. Maybe I could do it this way, but then I'm not entirely sure, maybe I could do this.
Jase: Emily's like, I know this.
Emily: I'm like, I do this too, not exactly like you do.
Jase: We have different styles of spew.
Dedeker: I think Em does it too.
Emily: I do, but I do it about, this is going on in my life right now and I got to talk about it.
Dedeker: You got to do this and then-- Exactly. Anyway, I would--
Emily: You get all the blowback from both of us. Sorry.
Dedeker: I, the chewer, the internal processor sees that and I start getting immediately stressed out of, oh gosh, he's really stressed out, he's freaking out. I need to help him somehow, what do I need to do? Oh my God. I would go into total panic like, what do I need to do to help you? Do I need to answer all these? Do I need to give you all this advice?"I don't know what to do.
Jase: Right, but then when we talked about it, what I explained was from my point of view, that's not me freaking out and being like, overwhelmed by all these problems. It's more just like, I'm excited about something, so I'm thinking about it a lot. For me, it's like a fun and excitement and not a, oh my God, I'm so stressed. Whereas to her, it seemed like I was in, "oh my God, I'm so stressed," mode. That was the recurring pattern.
What we came up with is the way I explained it to her. I was like, no, I'm just excited. Like a puppy dog gets really excited about something and it works itself up over this thing that it's very excited about. That's not because the dog is stressed out, it's because it's excited about something. Our code word for that was if she's like, are you stressed about this or whatever, or are you just excited? I can just be like, woof woof.
Emily: Like you're a puppy,
Jase: Woof, woof. I'm excited.
Dedeker: Sometimes it comes up in conversation where it's like you're talking about something and if I'm starting to be like, I don't know what you're going to do, yada, yada, yada. That you'll be like, no, no, no, baby. Woof woof, woof woof, woof woof. Then I'm like, you're just a puppy. It's okay. This last one, this comes from a blog post that was posted a little while ago in the Multiamory Patreon-only group that was called The Honesty Exchange. It was specifically, I think, aimed at people who are polyamorous, trying to figure out communication, trying to figure out honest disclosure.
It was about ways to graciously give honesty to your partner and also ways to graciously receive honesty from your partner so that it's just easier and safer to be honest in the relationship in general. Because that's such a major problem with communication, and I think we all struggle with to a certain extent of wanting to be honest but also fearing hurting someone or fearing somebody's reaction, and so that makes it really hard. At best it just means that it's an uncomfortable conversation, and at worst it means that we're hiding things or not being honest because we're afraid of a reaction.
Jase: It's similar to the bid thing, right?
Dedeker: Definitely.
Jase: If you set up an expectation that your bids all get turned down or that you're always having to turn down bids because their timing's bad at asking them, that's going to negatively impact your relationship. The same thing if anytime I make myself vulnerable to be honest with you, I get a bad reaction, that's going to make-
Emily: It's like, not going to do this anymore.
Jase: -me less inclined to be honest with you or it's just going to be harder to do.
Dedeker: In this blog post, The Honesty Exchange, they came up with a micro script. They didn't call it that, but it is what it is.
Jase: Because that's our trademark, trademark, trademark.
Dedeker: TM, TM, TM. That is what it is. It was basically like if your partner tells you something, maybe they come home from a date and they reveal, yes, we went to this restaurant, and then afterwards we went back to their place and we had sex for the first time. Maybe that's totally within the bounds of your relationship, but maybe it's still uncomfortable to hear. We've all been there. That, instead of that being the moment where you have your big reaction or where you process it right then, and all the things that are coming up, the script that you follow is just, thank you for your honesty.
Start there. Maybe it's, thank you for your honesty. Let's sit down and just cuddle and watch Netflix, and then it's fine. Or maybe it's, thank you for your honesty. I'm going to go take a walk around the block and then come back, and then maybe we can talk about the way I'm feeling. Or, thank you for your honesty. I'm going to go take a shower and be in the bathroom by myself for half an hour and then you'll see me after that. The idea of starting from that point, just that little script of thank you for your honesty, so that your first reaction to honesty isn't a punishment on your partner. Even if you don't intend for it to be a punishment on your partner, it can still be received that way.
Jase: It can feel that way.
Dedeker: Exactly.
Emily: I like that because it's not completely stepping away from the situation right then either. It's giving some sort of feedback and then perhaps taking a moment for yourself.
Dedeker: I think that script can either be, maybe that's just something you decide for yourself that you're going to use of when you're feeling something, but you don't want to dump all of your partner in that moment. Or it's something that you and your partner can talk about so that your partner knows when you say, thank you for your honesty, your partner knows, I know you need a little time to go and process. I know that things are okay but that you just need a little time for emotions to settle. That's another way that it can be used as well.
Emily: Totally.
Jase: I feel like another example of something very similar to that that I've found myself starting to do that has been really helpful is in times when I'm receiving criticism. Whether it's from one of the two of you all the time.
Dedeker: Oh, jeez.
Emily: Whoops.
Jase: Or even if it's at work in a professional context of depending on how I'm feeling at that moment, how my self-esteem is at that moment, how I feel about the thing that you're saying. My reaction could be like, oh, that's a great point. Or, what the fuck are you talking about? That's fine. Who are you to tell me this? Why would you tell me this right now? All those sorts of things we talked about before is doing a similar thing of having a micro script for myself of, thank you for letting me know. Or, thank you for telling me that. Sometimes often followed up with like, I need to think about that for a little while.
Emily: I've heard this a lot.
Jase: That, to me, gives me this, I'm acknowledging and I'm appreciating the fact that you were honest with me. It's similar where it's like that might not have been easy for you to say. I'm acknowledging that, but by saying I need some time to think about that or I'll think about that, it's saying I acknowledge it, I'm taking it seriously. Doesn't necessarily mean I'm saying you're right or you're wrong, but just I'm going to think about it. I will take it seriously. It also carries with it the, but I don't want to talk about it right now or maybe I need a moment before we do.
Dedeker: It reminds me of-- you're all theater kids. Do you know TTMFN?
Jase: TT--
Emily: Talk to you later for now, maybe?
Dedeker: Talk to you later for now.
Jase: Oh, I always heard it as TTFN.
Dedeker: Oh. We always do-
Emily: Talk for now?
Dedeker: -TTMFN which is, take the motherfucking note.
Jase: I heard it was just take the fucking note.
Dedeker: I don't know if this is necessarily a good example that applies to romantic relationships, but it's a good example of a micro script. The idea was that you do rehearsal and then after you do rehearsal, you get notes on your scene or your performance or whatever. where the director is like-- it can be anything of, I don't think that you're projecting enough in the scene, or it can be like, you messed up the blocking in the scene.
Or it could be like, we need to try a different emotional angle in the scene. Any number of things. The idea is that when you get notes, you write it down and you just say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You don't sit there and you argue it. You don't sit there and defend yourself. If you really feel like a note is in the wrong, you go to the director privately afterwards instead of wasting everybody's time and talking about it. I think actually-
Emily: In the moment, just take it.
Dedeker: -that applies to, I think, Jase, where you're talking about with the work situation with getting feedback. That you can still just be like, thank you, and then have some time to think about it. If you really feel like the feedback is not warranted or there's nothing you can get from it, then you can bring it up later or have that conversation in a different space. Instead of getting defensive in that moment.
Jase: This was fun guys.
Dedeker: Yes. This was great. I wish I could keep going. I love stuff like this.
Emily: I know. We learned something different from each of us. Hopefully, you all out there learned something too.
Jase: Thank you so much and thank you to everyone who came to our live shows-
Emily: Oh, man.
Jase: -all over the country. We still have our LA show coming up on-
Dedeker: May 9th.
Jase: -the May 9th.
Emily: The 9th.
Jase: We hope to see you there. That's going to be a really exciting show too.
Emily: In a really cool venue.
Jase: Get your tickets now if you haven't already. Nice big venue downtown LA at a brewery. Super excited about it.
Emily: Oh yes. It's going to be freaking awesome.