452 - Navigating Unrequited Feelings - Listener Q&A
Last Q&A of the year!
That’s right, folks…we’ll be getting back into Q&A episodes and hopefully streamlining the process next year. For now, enjoy the discussions we have around the following questions for this episode:
“I fell in love with a colleague who is poly . My wife and I have done swinging, no emotional ENM, in the past (pre-child who is now 4). The colleague and I struggled to navigate "just friends" while we worked together -- what to share with each other, what not to share. How to acknowledge the feelings and not act on them/escalate. In this struggle and in realizing how much poly "fit" for me (and always has), my feelings deepened. My wife was aware of the feelings and that I was interested in opening, but we needed to build more security in our relationship first. She felt acknowledgement of our feelings was an emotional affair, and has been extremely hurt.
Nearly all affair literature/approaches are based on a monogamous framework, where the only thing that matters is the original, primary couple. It counsels to cut off all contact with the "AP", focus on the primary couple, never look back. I understand needing to focus on repair and rebuilding security and trust, but cutting someone out of my life who I love and have a rare and important connection with does not vibe with my values, and it feels like it is being "imposed" on me. I want to choose both my wife and my (former) colleague. I want to love fully and openly.
Do you have any ideas or thoughts on how to create security / trust in a relationship when there is a breach of trust, from a polyamorous perspective (i.e. as opposed to a mono framework that says "cut ‘em out, don't look back")? Especially when you and your partner have pretty different views on what happened and what it meant? In my couple's therapy, I feel shoved into a framework that doesn't fit or make sense for me.”
“How do you like to navigate unrequited NRE? How is this different for you compared to when you’re in reciprocated NRE?”
“I just realized I'm in a relationship where my partner is hypersexual and I'm very insecure due to trauma. I've only been poly with them for a year and they recently started having sex with someone new and I feel like an emotional wreck from jealousy. It's like every lull in sex drive, lapse of physical affection or attention, or less passionate sex isn't innocent, but has ulterior motives now and I fantasize of going back to when most of their sex drive being more for me (I'm fairly sexual so this is great for me). I'm in therapy for the insecurity but that could take years to solve, so what could I do to make this jealousy easier so my partner can continue having fun?”
“This question is mostly geared towards Emily if she's comfortable answering it but I'd love to hear from any combination of folks! What are some questions to ask myself to determine if conscious monogamy may be a good fit for me? The backstory is very long and complicated but the shortest version is that I practiced nonhierarchal polyamory for three years and truly thought I had a stable, happy relationship with my former partner of five years and my meta of a year and a half but they both independently broke my heart in the span of a few weeks and it really rocked my world. I found myself truly single for the first time since I was 19, and the idea of monogamy seemed...easier? I'll be starting grad school soon, and having enough time for one relationship already seemed tricky. I've met someone I've really hit it off with, and I recognize I am in deep NRE as I'm falling in love with them. I had told them I wasn't looking for another serious relationship after my recent big life change, but I really want to pursue this deep connection with them. I've told them about my polyamorous past, and they've said they're open to trying polyam at some point, but I'm not sure if I want to open myself to multiple heartbreaks like that again. That reasoning alone isn't a good reason to commit to monogamy, though. I'd love your input on some more productive ways to process this pretty big question, either with my new partner or myself. Thanks!”
“I don't really have a big question, but I would really love to hear your take on relationship symbols, wedding rings, tattoos, collars, etc.”
As always, if you’d like to have your question considered for a future Q&A episode, please visit patreon.com/multiamory and consider becoming one of our Patreon supporters!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're doing a final listener question episode for the year. We hear those sleigh bells jingling, ring ting tingling too.
Dedeker: It's lovely weather for a Q&A together-
Emily: Oh, I love that. Beautiful.
Jase: That's good.
Dedeker: -with all of you.
Jase: Yes, I love that. We're actually recording this in advance so that we can take a little bit of time off at this time of the year. We're actually recording this before sleigh bells are jingling, and people laughing long before anyone's actually taking sleigh rides together. What we're doing for this one is we're actually going back and answering some of the questions that were submitted for previous Q&A's this year that we just, unfortunately, didn't have time to get to in our previous Q&A episodes, even though we really wanted to do.
Thank you, again, to everyone who submitted questions this year. We look forward to doing more of this next year. We really appreciate all the great feedback that we've gotten on these Q&A episodes. We're currently looking at ways to streamline that process, so stay tuned for that in the future. If you want to submit a question for us to discuss on the show, you can do that if you are one of our supporters, which you can do by going to multiamory.com/join to join our exclusive community of amazing listeners and get the chance to submit your questions for future episodes.
Additionally, if you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show, you can check out our book Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book, or wherever fine books are sold. Also, check out the first nine episodes of this podcast where we cover some of those same widely used tools as well as some of the fundamentals that we discuss over and over again on this show, and I'm sure will come up during this episode today.
Emily: Quick disclaimer as always, before we get started here. All three of us have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but unfortunately, we're not mind readers yet, we are working on it. Our advice is based solely on this limited information that we have. Just take everything with a grain of salt, every situation is unique, and we encourage you out there to use your own judgment and seek professional help if needed. We're just going to be giving our own take on things, and so take it or leave it, totally up to you. Ultimately, the only true expert on your own life, and feelings, and your decisions are your own. With that, let's get started.
Dedeker: Here's our first question. "I fell in love with a colleague who is poly. My wife and I have done swinging in the past before we had our child who is now four, no experience with emotional, ethical non-monogamy. The colleague and I struggled to navigate being "just friends" while we work together, what to share with each other what not to share, how to acknowledge the feelings and not act on them/escalate. In this struggle and in realizing how much poly fit for me and always has, my feelings deepened. My wife was aware of the feelings and that I was interested in opening, but we needed to build more security in our relationship first.
She felt that acknowledgment of our feelings was an emotional affair, and has been extremely hurt. Nearly all affair literature and approaches are based on a monogamous framework where the only thing that matters is the original primary couple. It counsels to cut off all contact with the affair partner, focus on the primary couple, never look back. I understand needing to focus on repair and rebuilding security and trust, but cutting someone out of my life who I love and have a rare and important connection with does not vibe with my values, and it feels like it is being imposed on me. I want to choose my wife and my former colleague, I want to love fully and openly.
Do you have any ideas or thoughts on how to create security and trust in a relationship when there is a breach of trust, from a polyamorous perspective, as opposed to a monogamous framework that says, "Cut them out and don't look back," especially, when you and your partner have pretty different views on what happened and what it meant? In my couples therapy, I feel shoved into a framework that doesn't fit or make sense for me. Signed, Mono No More." If it's okay, I want to just go ahead and jump in.
Jase: Yes, sure.
Dedeker: The first thing I want to do is I do want to validate this person's frustration when it comes to the information that's out there about recovering from an affair. This is something that really frustrated me a lot in all the training that I have done, specifically, as much as I love my training that I got through the Gottman Institute, their approach is literally this. Their approach they call it atone, attune, attach. The idea is that you work through the atonement, making sure that the person who was "the perpetrator" properly is able to apologize and make amends to the person who was hurt.
Attune is the stage where you're able to process together and actually be able to receive and understand each other's feelings. I feel like that's the seeking mutual understanding and a mutual understanding of what actually happened. Then the attachment phase, which is about, "Okay, now we can come back together, and feel more closeness, more intimacy, maybe that's when we're going to be ready to have sex together again or to feel like things are getting closer to normal again." That's their framework. Which I don't think overall is a bad framework, I think it could apply to any breach of trust, not just an affair.
However, there are some weird things in their framework that, of course, the person who cheated has to completely cut off all contact with the person they cheated with, which I think if you're monogamous, sure, that makes sense. When you're not monogamous, that's a little bit tricky. The other weird thing that the Gottmans recommend is the person who was cheated on should get to be able to ask any question they want or get any information they want from the other person. If it's like, "I want to be able to look through all of your text messages." Or, "I want to be able to look through your inbox."
Or, "I want to be able to ask specific questions about which sex acts you did." Again, maybe in a monogamous framework, maybe it makes sense to be able to do that, but when you're in a non-monogamous framework, it's like, "Eugh." I think what especially makes it difficult is I find myself working with people who are non-monogamous or polyamorous and something has happened that's felt like a breach of trust or an affair, but it's with a relationship that's been ongoing, or someone who's has multiple ongoing relationships, and so it's not really ethical to be like, "Here, I'll show you all of my text messages."
Or, "I'll just go ahead and cut someone out." That's just the one piece that I want to make sure to put a pin in, that I can validate the frustration that there's not a lot of resources out there that give clear guidance about working through these things that also include non-monogamous people.
Emily: That being said, however, I do think that there are more couples therapists available that potentially would have an idea and an understanding of non-monogamy more than it sounds like this particular one does. To me, immediately, I thought maybe we should be going instead to a different couples therapist, one that at least understands what non-monogamy is all about so that there's more of an equal footing there. I don't know, I don't want to invalidate the spouse's feelings either because--
Dedeker: Oh, totally, completely valid.
Emily: I can imagine that this would be really challenging, if that is not the expectation that was set up from the beginning that emotions wouldn't come into play in terms of becoming entwined with another person, possibly. As we so often talk about on the show, that tends to happen, I think, when you do invite the possibility of something more, of more people in the equation than just one person, one monogamous leading person.
I'm not surprised that that ultimately happened. I think if I were the spouse, I would try to, I don't know, it's hard to backpedal here, but I would want there to be an understanding between both people that, "Hey, we have invited this into our life in some way, and there was always a possibility of more occurring. I understand and acknowledge that this is maybe a breach of the trust that we had for one another surrounding our non-monogamy. However, I have realized for myself that this is the direction in which I want to start to go, and it happens to be with somebody that is already currently in my life.
What is it that would make you feel better about that possibility coming into our lives more? Also, what is it that I can do for you to help you out through this transition? What is a possible way that you can also maybe start flourishing in this way as well, in becoming non-monogamous as well, in a more specific polyamorous format perhaps?" I don't know. All of that is perhaps easier said than done, but I do think a lot of conversation needs to happen, and I certainly wouldn't be of the mind of like, "Yes, we've got to cut this person out of our lives entirely, this other person that I've developed feelings for." Because I don't know, that seems sad and tough too.
Jase: Gosh. Yes, it's tough because there's so much nuance in this question, right? There's, clearly, a long history with this couple, and then also all the specifics of how this came up, what it was specifically that made this person's wife feel like this was an emotional affair. I really have a hard time with the whole emotional affair concept in general. I think there's a lot of challenging, problematic stuff in it in terms of the way that we think about relationships between people generally of different genders.
I feel like emotional affairs are almost always spoken about in heterosexual relationships where there's this double standard about how close or how affectionate you can get with someone of the opposite sex, I guess. I also understand the feelings, right? Because if we think about it, not so much as is this an affair or not, is this an emotional affair, whatever, but instead just look at was this a breach of trust, like Dedeker said. I could see how that would feel that way to this person's wife of this thing had been going on that was important and emotional and all of those things in your life that was kept from me.
Not just like, "Oh, well, it just didn't come up," but it probably got to that point where once she found out about it, it felt clear, "This was kept from me." Again, it can really vary based on the situation of how big of a breach of trust that can be. Sometimes, there's little things that we keep from each other, and sometimes, bigger things. All that to say, there's not this clear answer of, "Oh, if it was this, then it's okay, and if it was this, it's not okay." It's all about how are we feeling, how do we feel safe in this relationship, stuff like that.
I think on that note, something worth coming back to that jumped out to me from this is this sentence in the first paragraph that says, "My wife was aware of the feelings," which I'm assuming means not feelings for this particular coworker, but just the feeling that polyamory is a better fit for this person but, "We needed to build more security in our relationship first."
That this swinging that they did before happened more than four years ago before they had their child, makes me question a little bit, what does more security mean. It feels like that's a little bit of a red herring when people talk about that, "Just we need to feel more secure first." Yes, but it's been four years potentially. What does that mean? What does actually being more secure mean?
Dedeker: I don't like your tone, young man.
Jase: Good.
Dedeker: Actually, I'm going to push back. I'm going to push back on you mostly because I think that request or that feeling of, "I want feel more secure before changing the format of our relationship," I think that's 100% valid. I think there can be some instances where someone is just scared and just kicking the can down the road and moving the goalpost of how safe they need to feel before they're ready, but I also think that this is completely legitimate. This whole thing, to me, is making me think about our conversation with Jessica Fern about the paradigm shock.
To me, this looks like someone was ready to change the relationship paradigm maybe before the other person was, or the person didn't even realize they were going to start to hit go on changing the paradigm, and now, this is the shock that comes from it. I don't think it means that this relationship doesn't have the capacity to shift the paradigm, but to me, that's what I see is, it sounds there's some shock that's going on from the fact that things changed, they changed, at least to their spouse, seemingly quickly without them being a part of the process or at least as much a part of the process as they wanted to be.
Emily: It does seem like some mismatched expectations as well potentially for this person who's writing in said, "My wife was aware of the feelings that I was having and that I was interested in opening up." Perhaps they thought that eventually, that would be a thing that was on the table. Now, I don't know if that contributed to moving forward with this other person in an emotional context and that just happened because there was the possibility of non-monogamy on the table at some point, or if it happened without that really being a possibility, truly.
Maybe that's what the wife is worried about or maybe the wife just put out there, "Yes, sure. Non-monogamy, I get it," but never actually assumed that that would be the case. Now that it is, that's a really challenging thing to actually have to come face-to-face with.
Jase: There's a couple of things I wanted to come back to with all that because, yes, the whole thing is tricky and it's nuanced and I do want to validate everyone's feelings here. One thing to consider here is that, that paradigm shock, like Dedeker was talking about, and that it does seem like there's hopefully some foundations here that this could be a thing you could transition to in this relationship if you're able to figure out what are those things to make this feel more secure and to help us feel stable and now unfortunately, also repairing from something that was a breach of trust from a lack of communication, which really goes against a lot of what polyamory is about.
Just to give some sympathy to the question-asker though, is that in a monogamous setup, which is what you have, we don't have examples of how to do that or when we should start talking about it. If you hadn't already opened your relationship, there's no real opening to start having those conversations. I'm not saying you were terrible and screwed up here, it seems like very clearly you were trying to do the right thing and to not let this escalate to a point that felt like it was out of bounds or against the agreements in your relationship.
Unfortunately, the experience for your wife was that, "This was kept from me," and that is going to take some time to rebuild that trust. I do want to try to set some realistic expectations here as I think the chances of being able to maintain this relationship with the former coworker and open up this relationship with your wife is very low. You might get there eventually, but just because she was involved with that lack of trust, that's going to be a much larger jump for your wife to get there to feel comfortable with than with somebody new after you've figured this out and established it.
I don't want to say that to be a bummer or to say it can't ever work out, because sometimes it can, but it's going to be a much harder jump to get there. I just want to set some realistic expectations there. I don't think that means cutting that person out of your life entirely, but I would not get your hopes set on having a romantic relationship with this person. It's just--
Dedeker: Yes, definitely not right away. For sure. Maybe take a beat.
Jase: Like a two-year-long beat.
Dedeker: Sure.
Jase: No joke, I'm talking serious. Don't just be like, "Oh yes, we'll wait a few months."
Emily: Because that might be triggering to your partner.
Dedeker: Exactly. That is totally a thing, right? Unfortunately, and this has happen-- I've been on both the giving and receiving end of this, and I've seen this play out with my clients so much that, unfortunately, just the way our brains work is if I perceive that you hurt me with another person, it's like that splash damage gets associated with that other person also. It can be very easy for those two things to be coupled together essentially.
Again, I would echo Jase's sentiment, it doesn't mean, oh, you have to submit to the mono normative affair recovery industrial complex or whatever and just roll over and assume, "Okay, it has to go this particular way." I think it is probably acknowledging that this person's wife, it's going to be a big ask. A lot of work, emotional work together, like carrying that emotional labor together of working through the breach in order to be able to open up a healthy pathway into the type of non-monogamy that actually works for this relationship.
Emily: Good luck.
Dedeker: Yes. We mean that with love, not with--
Emily: No, truly, it's tough, but I think that this is a lot of people's gateway into non-monogamy.
Dedeker: Yes.
Jase: Yes. We don't have good scripts for it. We don't have good examples of this communication. The deck is stacked against you to a certain extent. I think it's honestly good that it went this way and didn't, it wasn't an actual sexual affair in addition to an emotional one that was going on. Clearly, there were efforts made here to try to make this a good transition and it just moved faster and felt like it was kept secret. I think that this is not one of those things where I look at and I go, "Oh dude, this is hopeless." It's like, no, I do think there's hope here, but it's going to take time, and it's not going to look like you want it to look, at least not for quite a while, I think.
Emily: Shall we move on to the next one?
Dedeker: Yes, let's do the next one.
Emily: How do you like to navigate unrequited NRE? How is this different for you compared to when you're in reciprocated NRE?
Jase: Well, I like to navigate it poorly.
Dedeker: I don't like to have to deal with it at all. Just on the surface, it reminds me of so many horrible relationships I was in in my early 20s where I was like way more into someone who was not into me, or at least not into me in the same way-
Emily: Totally.
Dedeker: and just the torture of that. Or maybe it was more me torturing myself. I don't know. That's what it makes me think of.
Emily: Any time you were a young person or maybe not even that young of a person, but you saw somebody from afar that wasn't that into you, and you still had a lot of feelings for them maybe years down the line, it does suck, but self-soothing tactics, et cetera, talking to your friends about it, maybe writing in a journal about it, fantasizing and then trying to find healthy coping mechanisms to move on as well.
Dedeker: This was a very short question, so we're having to speculate here because I think there's a difference between, it's unrequited in the sense that, "I have a crush on someone who has zero interest in me." I think that's a different coping mechanism from, "I'm in a new relationship with someone and they're showing up, but I'm way more over the moon or seem to be way more over the moon than they are." Maybe they're not demonstrating that same level. Maybe they're even telling me that their feelings are not quite the same, but we're still in the relationship together of some kind. I think those are different.
Emily: I've done that too and then drove the person to leave the relationship.
Dedeker: Oh, no.
Jase: Gosh.
Dedeker: How'd you do that?
Emily: Well, I don't know. We were young, and I think I was just way too into him and I think scared him away, which for better or for worse, that may have been a me thing or a him thing or just a mutually not the right time for that kind of relationship. Then actually when I became polyamorous and I saw him the day that I had my first non-monogamous experience, I went out on a little lunch date with him, and we talked about it a little bit and he was like," Yes. I don't know, sex was never our issue. There were a lot of things that weren't our issue, I just wasn't really ready for that kind of relationship."
Dedeker: Well, I guess it's nice that you got to acknowledge it and talk about it.
Emily: Sure. I agree. I think that's just the thing, sometimes two people don't always connect in exactly the same ways, and that's okay, and maybe temper your expectations a little bit or perhaps try to find ways to, I don't know, let out that NRE in other ways that aren't necessarily directly at the person with whom you are super in attachment to.
Jase: That's such a good point, and that's the thing that I've honestly spent quite a lot of time over the last several years pondering that question because I've also had that happen, and I've been on both sides of it where starting a relationship and I was just so into this person in a way where it has that magical, this-is-meant-to-be feeling and totally drove them away. Like you were talking about, Emily, but this happened quite quickly within the first month or whatever, like quite quickly.
Dedeker: It's merciful.
Jase: I suppose in the long run, merciful, yes, and then I've been on the other side of it as well and there's some times where it's significant enough that it's like," Whoa-whoa-whoa, this is not going to work." Other times, where it's just, there's that little bit of mismatch, and so those are the ones that can go on for a while and maybe it evens out or maybe it's just like, "We can't keep doing this." It sounds like your story, Emily. I've thought back on those situations, and it's really easy when you're not in it to say, "Oh well, just chill. Just chill a little bit."
Enjoy feeling strongly about this person, but don't feel the need to put so much meaning and effort and whatever into it. I think in practice, that's hard to do though, and so that's something I have thought about quite a bit. I think honestly just having more experiences and also just feeling like you've got more going for you in your life makes that easier. I think at the time, again, this example I'm thinking of was probably the most significant example of that for me was a time where it didn't feel like things were going as well in work, in relationships, in everything. It was this like, "Oh, finally, someone that I feel like I could really be into. This has to work."
I think that can really amplify that feeling of NRE because it's like, "Ah, finally, this thing that is so hard to find." Versus other times in my life where maybe I don't have a lot of relationships but the ones I have are good and I feel solid about those and I feel solid in my work life and my social life and other things, it's easier to be like, "Wow, I'm excited about this person, but also, I'll take my time and see how this goes." I do often ponder what are some ways to help to cultivate that state of mind of, "I'm fine, I don't have to have this one thing be the most meaningful thing that I chase after," while still actually feeling that and getting to enjoy it.
Dedeker: The phrase that I always whip out on people about NRE is how can you find ways to let your head be in the clouds but keep your feet on the ground? I really do think it is about this extending and attuning to both of those things, like letting yourself enjoy the feelings while also trying to keep an eye on reality and your boundaries and your sense of self.
I do think when it comes to, as this person puts it, as unrequited NRE, I think it's the same, because like you said, Jase, just telling yourself, "I'll get over it," isn't going to work. If it truly is a situation where it's like, "I truly need to quit myself of this notion that this person's going to be in a relationship with me," then maybe going the route of," Okay, I'm going to try to put them out of sight, out of mind, and fill my days and distract myself with other things."
I think that's cool. If it's a situation where you are in a relationship and the NRE is just not matching in the same way, then I do think it is about, "Okay, how do I shore up my own groundedness while not completely trying to squash my interest and curiosity in this person?" Because there could still be a really wonderful connection there, a very wonderful unique relationship even if it doesn't play out exactly the way that you thought that it would.
Jase: Just to go back though to the question at hand about how to go about that is, boy, is just intentionally limiting your exposure to this person, I think can be helpful. Not by doing that, by holding yourself back because that can sometimes make it feel more intense. This like," Oh, I'm trying not to text them every day, so I've got to really hold it back." That can amplify that feeling, but instead, it's like saying," Okay, I feel this energy, what else could I put this energy into right now?" I know that sounds so woo-woo, but if you think about if like, "I've got all this going on for me. Let me do something that's going to mentally or physically exhaust myself to try to burn some of this off."
That for you could be going to the gym and doing a really intense workout. This could be signing up for a class in something, so you're really intellectually stimulating yourself, or maybe listening to a very intellectual podcast, like the History of English Podcast or something. I don't know if that does it for you, or learning a new skill, or just something to really get into like a crafts project or cleaning your whole house or something so that it's not just trying to hold back energy but redirecting it. That's so far the best I've come up with.
Often this can go into just hanging out with friends more as well is the way that's shown up for me recently of like, "Okay, I've got this energy, I'm going to put it here because that's something I do value and I want going on in my life." I haven't been in quite the same situation of feeling that really intense chemical attraction to someone leading to that NRE. I haven't had that recently, so who knows, I'll have to put these to the test if I'm in that situation again.
Emily: I think just being aware of what NRE is as well, that it is truly just chemicals coursing through your body for a set period of time that do cause you to be a little encumbered by all of these emotions and not really thinking about all the other stuff in your life and maybe not even seeing your partner as a fully-formed individual, just as this idealistic pedestal individual. That just being aware of that can maybe help put some perspective in place knowing like, "Once this subsides, I may be able to see the situation a little bit more clearly, and have a little bit more of an objective analysis of who this person is and who we can become together in relationship." That'll maybe help a bit.
Jase: All right, we've got a few more questions to get to where we're going to talk about things like sex and monogamy and callers, but first, we're going to take a quick break to talk about how you can support this show, keep it going into our 10th year, which is so cool that we're going to hit our 10th anniversary this coming year and we just love that. Just take a moment, check out our sponsors for this episode. If any are interesting to you, if you go check them out using our promo codes and stuff, it really does directly support our show, and we also appreciate our sponsors for helping support this show already.
Then, of course, you can support us directly at multiamory.com/join. We're back. Next question here is, "I just realized I'm in a relationship where my partner is hypersexual, and I'm very insecure due to trauma. I've only been poly with them for a year, and they recently started having sex with someone new, and I feel like an emotional wreck from jealousy. It's like every lull in sex drive, lapse of physical affection or attention, or less passionate sex that we have isn't innocent, but has ulterior motives now.
I fantasize of going back to when most of their sex drive was just for me. I'm fairly sexual, so this is great for me." That's a good clarification there. The insecurities are about that person having sex with other people not about wanting to have sex themselves. "I'm in therapy for the insecurity, but that could take years to solve, so what do I do to make this jealousy easier so my partner can continue having fun? I would add, and so I can also be having fun and not suffer, would also be great."
Emily: Can I just go the Dedeker Winston route immediately and say, when I hear the word jealousy, I always underneath want to question, what is it that I'm actually truly longing for? Is it just for sex or is it for intimacy in a way that I feel like I'm not getting? Is it for my partner's time? Is it for some sort of emotional understanding between us that perhaps I feel isn't occurring? I would question whether it truly is just about the sex, or if there's something deeper, more involved, that is going on there.
Dedeker: That's a good clarification. I appreciate that this person lists all the little things that seem to trigger this particular script in their head about, "Oh, my partner has an ulterior motive." Or, "Oh, this is happening because my partner is having sex with someone else." "Oh, they don't want to have sex with me as often because of this other person. Or, "Our sex isn't as passionate because of this other person."
Because I think that's a really good first step to identify when this particular condition arises, then this script plays in my brain, because not only is that a good thing to take to a therapist, like this person is already doing, at some point, it may be appropriate and helpful to share with their partner, and this is very vulnerable, but to share with their partner, "Hey, I have this particular story that plays in my mind when these things happen. I just want to share that with you so that we can collaborate on how can we change that story?
Is this a situation for a micro script, for instance, or is this a situation where it's okay for me to be like, 'Oh, hey, I noticed that I went to touch your back, and you turned away, and then I played this whole script, in my mind, so I just wanted to call that out right now,' so that I can have the opportunity to hear my partner say, 'Oh, no, I was just like, so busy at the computer, I didn't even notice.'" I do think that at some point, it may be helpful to open up and share some of these things, not to make this your partner's direct problem to solve, but to help there to be some intimacy and maybe some collaboration around helping the relationship just to continue feeling safer.
Jase: I think that if it's presented in that way of, "Hey, we're a team, how can we work as a team to help this feel better?" I love that the person signed it with this so that my partner can continue having fun, and I hope that your partner understands that and gets it that even if you're struggling with this that it's not coming from a place of not wanting them to have a good time but just the stuff that's coming up with this. Hopefully, that makes that a little bit easier to focus on, "What can we do together?" Rather than it feeling like this, "Now I don't know, now I'm always feeling guilty, and I don't know how to make you feel better." That kind of thing.
To go back to Emily's question at the beginning, it seems like in this case, you're saying very insecure due to trauma. Obviously, we don't know any of the details about what that means, but the fact that this comes to any lapses of physical affection or attention or less passionate sex feels like it doesn't make sense in terms of a jealousy like fear of loss sense, of "Any of this means I'm going to lose them because they actually just really would rather be with this other person." I guess something that makes me wonder about a little bit is you say you've only been doing this for a year now with this partner, had you been polyamorous before? Also, what are your other relationships looking like right now?
Because I know that that, especially early on, can be a big challenge, when there's just not enough of a backlog of experience to build confidence with this partner and especially if you're the one feeling like you haven't had that experience as well and still wanted to have sex with your partner, and that it didn't take you away from them. To go back actually to Emily, I remember that when we first opened up our relationship long, long, long ago, that that was a struggle for you because you had bad dates for the first while.
Emily: Sure.
Jase: I had some okay dates. You were just really struggling with it until you had that nicer experience that turned that corner for you.
Emily: Same experience where I talked to that other dude, yes, exactly. Two experiences for the price of one. Yes, that is a good point that going into another relationship or having another experience where it flips the expectation or the understanding of what other relationships can look like, or just feeling better about yourself in the moment, because it's like, "Hey, I'm now getting what my partner says is so great about this prospect, or about the possibility of being with other people," or whatever it may be in the scenarios.
Something that may help you feel better about the situation at large or feel better about yourself within the context of the situation. I don't know, that may just take time, that may just take meeting more people as well and putting yourself out there a little bit.
Jase: Building up that backlog of experiences with this particular partner too, so not just generally but also with this partner to have such a look back on and go, "Yes, it was fine before, it'll probably be fine again." Unfortunately, there's not a real shortcut to get there.
Emily: Just time.
Dedeker: Okay, this next question is specifically for Emily.
Emily: Well, it's for all of us.
Dedeker: It says, "Question is mostly geared towards Emily if she's comfortable answering it, but I'd love to hear from any combination of folks. What are some questions to ask myself to determine if conscious monogamy may be a good fit for me? The backstory is very long and complicated, but the shortest version is that I practice non-hierarchical polyamory for three years, and truly thought I had a stable, happy relationship with my former partner of five years, and my meta of a year and a half, but they both independently broke my heart in the span of a few weeks, and it really rocked my world.
I found myself truly single for the first time since I was 19, and the idea of monogamy seemed easier. I'll be starting grad school soon and having enough time for one relationship already seems tricky. I've met someone I've really hit it off with, and I recognize I'm in deep NRE as I'm falling in love with them. I had told them I wasn't looking for another serious relationship after my recent big life change, but I really want to pursue this deep connection with them.
I've told them about my polyamorous past, and they've said they're open to trying polyamory at some point, but I'm not sure if I want to open myself to multiple heartbreaks like that again. That reasoning alone isn't a good reason to commit to monogamy though. I'd love your input on some more productive ways to process this pretty big question, either with my new partner or myself. Thanks." What do you got, Emily?
Emily: Yes, well, that is a lot.
Jase: What a question.
Emily: I got the opportunity through editing to listen to some of the stuff that you two talk to Amanda Katherine about, and this was a similar question to one of the questions that you had and there were I know Amanda Katherine said sometimes monogamy does just seem easier. I've gone through moments in my life where monogamy is the choice for me and moments were polyamory is the choice for me. I just want to acknowledge that that sentiment is something that I think a lot of people go back to sometimes in their life because everything out there in the world does tell us that monogamy is easier.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't for you in particular, but there definitely are a lot more social scripts out there that help us believe that monogamy is going to be the easier way to go. In terms of whether or not it's the right decision for you, I think that's a huge question and one that I'm hoping to develop an episode around in the near future. I do think that some of the things that perhaps you should ask yourself are, "If I'm going to become monogamous, would I be okay with never being polyamorous again?"
Just totally like crossing that off the list potentially because of those expectations that you get into with partners where after you're doing it for so long, you may bring up, "Hey, non-monogamy sounds interesting to me," and they may be like, "No fucking way. No way." I think that that's just something that you have to be aware of, that possibility. Now, of course, you can always say, "Okay, then this relationship isn't for me anymore." If you want to stay in a relationship with that person, there may be that compromise that you have to make and that decision that you ultimately come to.
Additionally, there are some things about monogamy that are definitely easier. One thing that I found immediately after becoming monogamous again, that a friend pointed out to me, he was like, "Yes, when you're monogamous, the idea in your brain that every person could be a potential mate, shuts off." I didn't even think about it like that until then. It's this idea that, especially when I was non-monogamous, I would meet somebody and I'd be like, "Huh, maybe I could date that person. Could I date this person? What do I think about them? They're hot." Or, "They're interesting. Maybe I would want to explore that further."
While it's exciting and fun to get the opportunity to do that, it's also time-consuming and emotionally-consuming. To not be putting out that energy towards people, I do think that it creates room for that energy to be funneled into other areas of your life, which maybe is a good thing, and maybe there are some things that are less fun about that as well, but it's just something to think about. There are so many very deeply personal reasons to yourself and your relationship why you may want to choose monogamy over non-monogamy.
I would say in this scenario, because you are not particularly committed one way or another and you're not particularly attached to a human who is saying, "Hey, I really want this type of relationship, and this is what's going to make me feel best," in the same way that I was. Because I think that that's ultimately why I chose that path because the person who I was with said, "This is really the only way that I want to be in relationship with you is if we do it in this way." I decided, "Okay, we're going to do that because I want to stay in a relationship with this person." If you're not in that, then you have some really big existential questions to ask and to answer. That's a very personal conversation you have to have with yourself.
Jase: Something I just want to throw out there as something to ask yourself when you're trying to determine that is the framing of this question is all around, "I had this awful double heartbreak, and it was so terrible that maybe monogamy is easier." I do want to caution against locking yourself into any particular decision while you're feeling like that, while you're feeling hurt and burned by a thing. It's in the same way of like, "I'm never dating women again. I'm only going to date men because I had this terrible heartbreak with this woman that I was with." That type of thinking.
Or, we tend to not do this with monogamy, but you could of like, "I was in a monogamous relationship. It was terrible. I'll never do that again." I think the question asker is aware because they even said themselves like, "I know that that alone is not a good reason to commit to monogamy." I think there's a part of you that's aware of that. I think I would try to go back and explore like, why did you start doing it in the first place? How did you feel about it while you were doing it? Where was this just, "Oh, this is another fun option. It's all right. I can hang with this. It's cool. It's fine."
Or was it more of the fact that it aligned with your values? It was like, "Yes, this makes sense to me on this level of-- Yes, this autonomy and this way of conducting relationships makes sense to me on some deeper level." If it's that one, I would really caution you against doing anything that's closing that door. Because like Emily said, it's very possible that you end up in that situation where that's never an option to you again, or you end this relationship that's maybe now gone on for quite a while because so often we see that scenario of sometime early in the relationship, one person says, "I'm polyamory leaning." The other person says, "Yes, maybe someday."
We get together, fast forward 20 years, and that person who always hoped we would do that has still always wanted to do that. The other person is like, "Yes, I said we'd entertain the idea, but I didn't really think about it seriously, and in the intervening time, I haven't thought about it and I don't want to do that." I see that all the time. I would just really caution you about rushing to commit to that, especially if this person that you're dating now is like, "Yes, I'm open to trying that at some point." Actively keep that door open unless you're sure you want to close that.
Because the thing that caused that double heartbreak, as much as it sucked, was not the polyamory, it was those people, it was those relationships. That's always a risk in any type of relationship. You can get your heart broken just as badly in monogamy. Just to keep that in mind, I'd really caution you about making any serious, committed decision. We say don't sign anything in the first year because of NRE. I would say also don't close any doors all the way during that first year of NRE as well for that same reason of just like, "Hey, I might be making this decision out of a reaction, rather than it aligning with my values and being fully thought out."
Emily: You have maybe made a decision by now or you are on your way to making a decision with more information and more internal conversation about what it is that you really want and where your values are really aligned. Good luck with that because it is a really big decision for sure. Let's move on to the final question, which is, "I don't really have a big question, but I would really love to hear your take on relationship symbols, wedding rings, tattoos, collars, et cetera."
Dedeker: I love that question. I'm into relationship symbols, question mark? Sorry, I don't sound very committed to it because this is something that's really changed for me over the years. I think I've shared this story on the podcast before that I think it wasn't until I turned 30, and it really was, like I just suddenly woke up one day and I was like, "I want jewelry from my partners."
Emily: I like jewelry.
Dedeker: "Yes, I want fancy jewelry from my partners." Never had an interest in it before, whatsoever. I don't know what it was, but there was something about, at that point, it was like, "Yes, I've been with both of my partners long enough that it would be really nice just to have something, some symbol to carry around. They don't have to reciprocate. They don't also have to wear fancy jewelry to represent our relationship necessarily." For me, I was like, "I want something just as like that ritual, just to put some meaning into some powerful object to carry around." I don't know, this is personal, right? I think I'm into it.
I think that I would always caution people about if you're wanting a symbol, where is it coming from for you? That doesn't mean you have to logic away all the emotional parts of exchanging some kind of relationship symbol because it is an emotional thing. Because if we're just thinking about it with our logical brain, wearing a ring or a collar or a tattoo or whatever really doesn't actually mean anything inherently, but there is an emotional side to it.
It could be coming from the emotion of, "Wow, I really want to celebrate the connection that we have and feel like we have this little special thing, like this little special symbol that we can recognize and maybe tell other people about." Or it could be coming from an emotional place of, "I feel really insecure in my relationship and feel like if I can get you to wear a ring and give me a ring, whether that's attached to marriage or not, or it could be if I can get you to-- If I can be collared for you or something like that, then that's going to make me feel safe." Which may not play out the way that you think that it's going to play out.
Emily: Can I ask, how did you broach that subject with your partners and what was their response?
Dedeker: I don't remember how that was with you, Jase, because you'd already bought me a ring. You bought me a ring on our first anniversary or something.
Emily: That was one of the very first gifts he ever gave you.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: Was the ring that I'm thinking about.
Dedeker: Yes, it was my other partner at the time. I don't know, I just literally was like, "I want jewelry from you." No, I was straight up.
Jase: Like, "You, give me jewelry. Give me jewelry."
Dedeker: I was straight up about it. I was like, "I've woken up and decided I want jewelry from you, and it doesn't have to be super expensive or super fancy, but I just thought it might be nice to have a ring that I can wear that is a symbol of our relationship, and we can pick it out together." He was like, "Okay." We just kept our eyes peeled. I think what he eventually bought me was literally a $25 ring. I picked it out and was like, "I really like this, and this feels appropriate." I don't know. That's what I said.
Jase: Now I'm just thinking about it in terms of some kind of a role-playing game where you have items with different magic powers.
Emily: I just watched the whole Lord of the Rings trilogy, so I totally--
Dedeker: Yes, powerful objects--
Emily: Yes, exactly.
Jase: Powerful objects. It is making me think about maybe a fun way to reframe the question that Dedeker just asked, which is that what's the reason for wanting it? What's there? Maybe a way to think about that. Bear with me because I'm coming up with this right now on the spot, but it's some kind of which type of enchantment is it that you want on it?
Dedeker: Fun. This one's got a plus one against ogre slaying.
Jase: Well, okay, sure. There's that. Now the question is then what does that mean for you in real life? For example, it could be, I want some kind of a ring to wear from you that gives me plus two ogre slaying. By ogre slaying, I mean guys hitting on me that I can show them this and they back off.
Dedeker: Interesting.
Emily: That's cute.
Jase: Sure, that's maybe not the most romantic reason to want it, but it's still a valid thing, a valid enchantment that you could get on that ring. Or another one to think about might be, like with a collar, for example, it could be that this gives me some a plus one to identifying fellow kingsters. There's also that bonus in addition to then for the people in that community who get it, knowing I've got a partner who has that role.
It opens up a conversation but within the context of that. I'm being very logical about these too, because it could also be, I want this one that gives me plus one heart or something like a Captain Planet kind of power. It's just like every time I look at it, I get all warm and fuzzy and feel special. That's also great. Maybe that's a way we could think about it. I actually love to hear from people about what their enchantments would be, and then maybe the descriptions of what those are for some kind of ring or jewelry or tattoo or collar or something like that. Maybe that'll be our question of the week this week.
Dedeker: That's a good one. I think a particular avenue of this we haven't explored is, let's say I do have two partners and I'm trying to practice some kind of relatively non-hierarchical polyamory. One partner gives me some kind of relationship symbol, whether it's a ring or a collar, or we decide to get tattoos or whatever. Is there a potential for that needing to spark conversations with another partner about, "Do we also need to do the same exact thing? Does it need to be tit for tat in order to feel special? Does it need to be something else?" I don't quite know exactly what the question is there. This is a situation I can foresee happening for some folks.
Emily: That reminds me a little bit of our fairness episode. Because often I think people will get in a scenario where they're like, "Well, why aren't you asking me for a ring or jewelry as well? Does that mean somehow that I am lower on the scale of relationship hierarchy or whatever?" I don't know. I know that people still get married within polyamory to one individual and then their other partners are not necessarily married to them.
Dedeker: In a legal sense. Strictly legal sense.
Emily: Sure. Exactly. There are still people who do choose to get married within non-monogamy, and then there are people who are like, "No way, I'm getting divorced because I don't want there to be any sense of hierarchy at all." These symbols are all about, "Oh, we're enmeshing ourselves so much that we're like each other's property or whatever." I do think that it is really individual. I also like jewelry.
To me, that's fun, and it's exciting to have something within the relationship that you can look at and say, "Oh, that reminds me of this person." I also totally understand people wanting to shy away from that for the sake of, "No, I want to be completely understanding of all of my partners in the fact that they may not want this thing, and I don't want them to feel bad about me only choosing to have this with one particular person."
Jase: A couple of things that came up during this discussion, hearing you two talking about this, is one thing I noticed is that we've tended to approach this from the point of view of, "I want to have something, I want to wear something," but I do feel like there is this other side of, "I want you to wear something." Which I think can come up with the collar, but also with rings or tattoos or whatever of this kind of, "I want you to wear a symbol that proves question mark to me, question mark to other people, question mark to yourself, question mark that I'm important or that you are somehow attached to me." I think that one's a little more complicated.
Emily: What are you wanting for it?
Dedeker: Hold on though, because that's what I did to you, Jase, honestly. A couple of years ago, in the thick of the pandemic, in classic Dedeker fashion, I was just like, "I'm buying you a ring."
Emily: Dedeker, you like to retain control of the situations that you're in.
Dedeker: Where it was coming from, I don't know. It didn't come from a place of like, "I'm buying you a ring and you better freaking wear it, and it's going to mean this." No, I think was it around your birthday or something. I discussed it with you, I didn't just present you with a ring and was like, "Wear this now." I discussed it with you.
Jase: I was into it. I should clarify. I was into it.
Emily: It's a cool ring.
Dedeker: It's a cool ring made out of a whiskey barrel. It's so appropriate for Jase.
Jase: That actually goes to the second part of what I was going to say, is that I think if it's that you want someone else to wear it, just be sure that that person's stoked about it and they're excited. Then also the second piece of the whole power of these symbols is the meaning that we give to them. That's also what makes them dangerous. I'm saying dangerous because I'm just being dramatic right now.
It's that thing of, "I give you this ring, and you wearing it shows me that you care about me and that you're proud to show me off," and whatever it is. Maybe there's that meaning you've put behind it, but then if they're ever not wearing it or they forget it someday, or if it ever gets lost or something, all of the superstitious bullshit that we put on that can really set us back, can really cause problems and cause a lot of suffering that didn't need to be there.
I would just encourage you to approach it with a little bit of lightness. That's something like with the rings that now Dedeker and I both have gotten for each other, I don't wear mine every day. She doesn't wear hers every day. It's that like, "Oh, if I notice it--" If Dedeker notices I'm wearing my ring, it's like, "Oh, you're married to a tree today because it's made of wood." It's like a little joke. It's cute, it's fun.
It's like, "Oh yes, should put this on, show that off. It's cool." It's more of a fun, cute thing rather than a place that I went to early on in our relationship is anytime she wasn't wearing it, feeling like why is she not wearing it? The absence was somehow significant or a slight, which is not really helping serve the whole purpose that supposedly this was supposed to serve. That's just a piece of caution that I would throw out there.