427 - Is Non-Monogamy Just Commitment Phobia? Crossover Episode with Natasha Chandel of Kinda Dating
Welcome, Natasha!
We’re excited to be joined by Natasha Chandel, actress, comedian, dating expert, and host of the Kinda Dating podcast. She is also a producer, creative executive, writer, and the Vice-Chair of the South Asian Writers Committee, which is part of the WGA.
Kinda Dating explores the topic of commitment and commitment phobia, so for this episode, we have a conversation exploring how commitment and fear of commitment can show up in both non-monogamous and monogamous relationships.
Some of the topics we cover include:
Are people who choose non-monogamy or open relationships just scared of commitment?
How does the concept of commitment differ between monogamous and non-monogamous relationships? Can you share some examples of how commitment is expressed in non-monogamous partnerships?
How does a fear of commitment look different in monogamous dating vs. non-monogamous dating?
Let's discuss the "relationship escalator" concept. How do you think traditional expectations around it have shaped modern dating culture, and what other options can people consider for building satisfying relationships outside of that mold?
When it comes to modern dating, how can someone effectively communicate their relationship preferences, like wanting to explore non-monogamy or alternative relationship structures, while avoiding misunderstandings and making sure they're on the same page with potential partners?
Make sure to check out Natasha’s podcast, Kinda Dating, wherever you get your podcasts!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Dedeker: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, I am not Jase.
Emily: You're not.
Dedeker: Yes. It turns out I'm not. I've tried so many years-
Emily: You be you, Dedeker. That's fine.
Dedeker: -to be him. Jase, unfortunately, is on the couch sick right now. We're taking over just to record this little intro. Here I am doing Jase's job. Let me try again. On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we are doing a crossover episode with Natasha Chandel of the Kinda Dating podcast. Natasha is a producer, creative executive, full-time writer, actress, and podcaster. She is also the vice chair of the South Asian Writers Committee, which is a part of the Writer's Guild of America.
Natasha's podcast, Kinda Dating, explores the topic of commitment and commitment phobia. She primarily speaks from a traditional dating monogamous lens. We thought that it would be interesting to have a conversation exploring how commitment and fear of commitment can show up in both non-monogamous and monogamous relationships. Natasha actually interviewed me about my book way back in 2017, so it was really nice to reconnect with her and to reconnect with all three of us as well. Because this is a collab episode, Natasha also interviews us about our own journeys into non-monogamy. If you have not gotten a copy of our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools For Modern Relationships, please go check out multiamory.com/book. With that, we're going to go to the episode.
Natasha: Friends, we did it, yay.
Jase: We're all here together.
Emily: We're here. Excellent.
Dedeker: We coordinated four people's schedules to create a podcast, a miracle in this day and age.
Natasha: I love it. Two of you guys are new to me, but Dedeker, I know you from back in the day. I'm very curious about your guys' story because like I said, I know Dedeker, but I don't know Jase and Emily in that capacity. You guys obviously host a podcast called Multiamory. I feel like I know what's happening, but I would love for you guys to explain your relationship, friendship, how you guys met.
Emily: Jase and I were actually in a monogamous relationship from 2011 on for a while. After a bit of time living a normal monogamous life of moving in together and having cats and buying a TV, things like that, we realized something was missing. We were interested in maybe seeing other people, but we still really cared about each other. We still wanted to continue the relationship with one another. Jase actually was the one who started doing some research and actually started dating a person who was non-monogamous and said, "Hey, why don't we try this thing called non-monogamy?"
We began that journey together, and after a little while, I met a person on OkCupid who happened to be dating Dedeker. The four of us became a quad for a little while. Four people in a relationship together. Jase, Dedeker, and I were in a triad after that for a bit. Then during that time, the podcast was born. Our relationship has changed a lot since then. The three of us are no longer in a relationship together. I'm actually back in a monogamous relationship with a different person. Jase and Dedeker have remained polyamorous since then.
Natasha: Wow, that's like an amazing journey. I feel like there was a lot of communication involved in that.
Emily: There was and communication breakdowns, for sure. For sure, there was a ton of communication needed in order to continue, I think, to where we are today and keep the friendship going as well.
Dedeker: It's a miracle to me when I look back on it because I think running a podcast already is hard, running a podcast with multiple people, even harder, running a podcast with multiple people that you're in a relationship, even harder, running a podcast with multiple people where the relationship is changing and there's breakups happening, multiple overlapping breakups happening, the hardest. When I look back on it, I'm amazed because I think that that could have been such an easy jumping-off point, bailing out point for any of us, for all of us.
I don't know what it was if we were all just stubborn or just he walking away from projects or things like that, but we just kept going. We were still showing up to record every single week, even in the midst of really deep, intense relationship talks happening between multiple people and people even outside of our podcast and things like that. It does help that for 10 years, every single week that we've been talking about communication research and relationship research, that does help.
It could have been different if we were recording a podcast on a completely different subject, but something that we often say is now our relationship is at this point where ironically it feels closer and better and stronger and more intimate than it was when we were all romantically and sexually involved.
Natasha: I can imagine that. Jase, I'm curious, I have two questions. I'm sorry. I'm going to ask tons of questions. I'm very curious about how all this worked out. Jase, for you, you and Emily were in the monogamous relationship, and you were both feeling like maybe we want more, but you were the one who initiated the non-monogamy aspect of it. Was that something you had a discussion first about and then pursued it, or took that step and then talked to her? Were you scared? How did you bring that up? Because I feel like I'm sure a lot of people wonder how to approach that topic.
Jase: That's a great question. Something I do want to clarify from the way that story was told just now today-
Emily: Sure.
Jase: -is that from our experience working with lots and lots of people, talking to lots of listeners of the show, starting ethical non-monogamy or consensual non-monogamy, like polyamory, from an affair or cheating or something like that, first, basically, never works. 99.99999999% of the time, that will not work because it requires a lot of trust and honesty and communication. If you start from a place of having broken a lot of that trust and not having that honesty, it's just really hard to build that foundation you need for that. I do want to clarify that that's not what Emily meant by me researching.
Emily: Definitely. No, no, no. I meant actual true research in the sense of you read some books, and you listened to some podcasts, and you did start dating someone who was like, "I know about this thing." You had more understand of it.
Natasha: It's not like researching your dating opportunities.
Emily: No. We broke up for a hot second, and then realized actually, "Hey, we are still interested in each other."
Jase: That's the way that it worked was more of a we want something more, but at the time we didn't know that polyamory was an option. Neither of us had even heard of it at the time because this was back in, what, 2013 probably when we started talking about this?
Emily: Correct, yes.
Jase: Neither of us had ever heard that term before, so we had no idea that was an option. It was this like, well, we live together, and we still get along really well. It's not like there's anything wrong here, but it's like, I want to explore other things. I don't know. Emily was actually the one who came to me first with that. I was like, rather than us just like throwing everything out and breaking up, why don't we take some time, and we'll take a break for a little while and figure that out.
I think during that I ended up going on one date and came home from that, and Emily and I were both like, "Oh my God, now I'm so into you." It reignited something for us.
Emily: For sure.
Jase: We're like, "Something's here." We're like, "Why don't we try an open relationship?" Because that's a thing we'd heard of before. Let's see what that is. I don't know. In talking to people about it, actually my first book recommendation was from my brother, of all people, who's in a monogamous relationship and has been since then. He's like, "My fiancé," or wife or whoever she was at the time, it's like, "When she was in college, she took a sociology course and read this book, Sex at Dawn, that sounds relevant to what you're talking about. You should go check that out.
Dedeker: I never knew that came from your brother. That's so funny.
Emily: Yeah, me neither, that’s impressive.
Dedeker: It's ironic now.
Jase: It is.
Emily: It is.
Jase: Anyway, that led down that path of the research Emily was talking about. That's when we figured out, oh, there are people doing this, and have been doing it for a long time, actually, and have given thought to how do you do this in a way that's healthy, and it's not just the thing you do when your relationship's doomed, and you're just trying to keep it on light support or something, which I think is how most of us are taught to think of open relationships.
It's like the thing that happens before the end or when you're not into each other anymore or something like that. Just kind of seeing, "Oh, that's not the case." There is this whole other world, this other way to do it. I think began the many, many years-long process of then unlearning all the baggage that our upbringings in society teach us about relationships that make it difficult to do non-monogamy well because we've been taught all this stuff about that jealousy is good and that it means love, and if someone doesn't only want to be with you, it means they don't really love you. All these things to unpack.
I think that's the long part of the story is all that unlearning. That's what inspired us to make the podcast; to help create some resources for people going through that as well because at the time, there was only one other podcast about non-monogamy, about polyamory, that had been running for several years. They're actually no longer running that show. Even at the time, they were older than us, and we're like, "We want something for younger people and to be hip and cool," which we thought we were at the time. That's how we ended up making the podcast in the first place.
Natasha: I love that. It's an interesting story. Emily, I'm curious because you talked about the breakup aspect, which, I think, is also very-- I'm sorry to use the word fascinating, but I will use it.
Emily: Yes, by all means.
Natasha: Just how you guys navigate that, especially for you, it's like you were monogamous and went through to non-monogamy, and then back to monogamy. What is that break process like? Do you think your listeners felt that? I assume it must be-- This is going to sound dumb, but I'm just trying to act very layman in my understanding of this. People would just assume if you are ethically non-monogamous, you are open, there's got to be some version of less feelings attached.
It's got to be like, "You're okay with one person goes, here's another," but that's not obviously what it is. You're in real relationships with multiple people. Can you describe that breakup process? Is it the same as in a regular monogamous relationship?
Emily: In non-monogamy it's very possible and very celebrated that you can transition from a type of relationship being potentially really romantic, and very sexual, and looking a certain way, and transition it into being something else and looking a different way, and that that's okay, and that that's something that a lot of people in non-monogamy do. I think that in a lot of monogamous relationships people tend to think of it as, "We're broken up, we're done. That's it." We're not going to be seeing this person anymore. They're dead to me, basically, and that's it.
I really appreciate the fact that you can stay friends with an ex, you can have a business with an ex, you can potentially co-parent well, and with respect, and admiration, and love for another person or a variety of other things. They transcend that label of just one thing in your life. I think that that's something that these two people have very much done for me. Yes, breakups are hard, regardless, of course.
It was, but I think at the same time, we had a lot of tools at our disposal to do it well and to continue to communicate as much and as well as we possibly could. That has continued over the course of our relationship. Sure, our listeners heard that, and I think that they felt it, but our show really isn't about our relationship, and it isn't about the relationships that we're in. Those do come up, for sure.
It is more about let's talk about things that are occurring in our lives to a degree, but use that as a jumping off point for, well, now I want to talk about this bigger overarching theme or this concept and do some research on it and try to figure out the best way to communicate in this particular situation, for instance.
Dedeker: You did highlight a common misconception, which is that sense of like, oh, whenever you break up, you got another one or two other ones, or things like that. It's a bit of a mix because, I will say, having now gone through several non-monogamous breakups where one relationship ends while I have other relationships that are still going on, having other relationships means that there are some costs of a breakup that are a little bit lowered. As in, I know I have someone to turn to to cuddle me and hold me while I'm crying my eyes out about the loss of this relationship.
I have confirmation from someone that I'm still sexy, and attractive, and desirable, and someone who's worthy of being in relationship with, instead of just being by myself and telling myself all those thoughts and not necessarily having anything to contradict that. It still freaking hurts. The same way that if you lose a friend, it doesn't hurt any less because you have multiple other friends to turn to. If you have a falling out with a family member, it doesn't hurt any less just because you have other family members to turn to.
There's also an added layer of complication. This is a question that we get all the time, and this is something I have to work with my clients on all the time, is that weird thing of, "How do I support a romantic partner who's going through a breakup with someone else?" especially if it's a messy breakup, or "How much of my processing of my breakup is appropriate to bring to a romantic partner or not?" It definitely adds these levels of intricacy that we don't necessarily have social scripts for.
With many things in non-monogamy, the beauty of not having a social script means that you can make things up. You can create things that work for you, that are customized to your situation, customized to the people involved, and then also it can be scary and disorienting because I don't have a script to follow.
Natasha: Yes, really good points. Talking about misconceptions and myths, have you guys gotten these kinds of questions where it's like, do you guys just have commitment issues?
Dedeker: I'm so glad to finally get to the commitment issues portion of the conversation.
Natasha: Yes.
Jase: Yes, because now we get to ask you a lot of questions, too. We do come across that misconception. I think that it comes up less now than it did when we started the show. I think largely because polyamory and just various forms of consensual non-monogamy have become a little more present in the world, people are more aware of it.
Emily: More accepted.
Jase: Yes. People are talking about it a lot more than they were when we started the show. There's now a lot of podcasts about it, and there weren't when we started our show. That's been really cool to see that change. I think that some of those really naive assumptions like that don't come up as much anymore. They still do, though, just not as frequently as they used to. Yes, it's funny. I remember when I first was talking to one of my best friends about this.
He's monogamous and married, and I was doing this polyamory thing. That question of, "Well, but what about commitment?" It led to this really interesting conversation of when we say commitment, what do we mean? What do we mean by that, even? When we talk about being a commitment-phobe, the same thing of like, what do you mean by that? What are you afraid of?
I think that we use this term commitment to cover up big-wide range of things. Does commitment mean staying with someone who's abusive just because you said that you would? I could see a lot of people, especially in the very conservative Christian camps, being like, "Yes, that is commitment." Yes, you're stuck. You have no escape. They probably wouldn't say it like that.
Natasha: Yep, hell, and all of that.
Jase: On the other hand, it's that like, "Oh, as soon as it gets difficult, peace out. See you later." As soon as you have a bad day, or you lose your job, or you're sick, and I'm like, "I do not want to deal with this," I just want to do my own thing and be self-absorbed. That's shitty, and I think most of us would agree that's not good commitment. I think all those same things apply in non-monogamy as well.
When we think about what commitment really means, the whole not loving anyone else or not sleeping with anyone else is actually a relatively small piece of it, even for monogamous people. Sure, maybe that's a struggle for some people, maybe that sucks, but when I think about the type of commitment, that beautiful powerful thing of like, "I'm here for you when you're struggling, and when you're suffering. I know that you're here for me. We evolve over time with each other. As we change, we grow alongside each other."
None of that is is dependent upon being only with that one person sexually. If we think about healthy monogamous relationships, having emotionally-fulfilling relationships outside of that is actually just a really good, healthy part of monogamous relationships in general, and there's tons of research to back that up. If you think that monogamy means I can't have any other friends and I don't talk to my family as much anymore, that's not a recipe for a healthy relationship. Yes, that's still a commitment; having these loving, nurturing relationships with your friends and your family. There's my very long answer to what we talk about a lot with that.
Emily: Well, and I want to see how that compares with your experience, Natasha, because you identify as this recovering commitment-phobe, and now you are in a committed relationship. I want to tie it into your podcast. How has exploring this topic broadly via your podcast influenced your own journey here?
Natasha: Tremendously, of course. I only started the podcast after I felt like I was coming out of that commitment phobia stage of my life, but I was probably a hardcore relationship girl. I was in a four-year relationship through high school, college, then like a two and a half year relationship. Then I got in an abusive relationship. After that, he cheated on me with like, I don't know, like eight, nine people that we could count. I don't even know. When I came out of it, I was like, oh, can't beat him, join him. I like went the opposite way.
Jase: Oh, see, so you weren't always a commitment-phobe.
Natasha: No, but here's the thing, even when I was in those relationships, and I'll say this, this is where I see commitment phobia in a different way than most people do where when I came out of that phase with that abusive relationship, and I went the other way, I didn't cheat on anybody. I've never cheated on anybody in my life, but I would literally on day one tell people, "I don't want to be in a relationship." Then the people I did end up in extended periods of dating with they were people that were really wrong for me.
I was very like, and I still am, sex doesn't mean the same thing to me that it does to other people. I don't feel like I ever catch feelings from sex. I catch feelings if I actually like you, and I want to open up to you, but sex isn't that aspect for me. I just really came out, and I realized like, I would date these guys, my friends would just laugh. They were like, "Oh, who's calling today? London? Vancouver? Toronto?" I was just dating guys in different cities.
One was in Philly, one was wherever. Even the people that were in my city that I was hanging out with or dating, they had clear issues. There came a point where I had to ask myself, and it's the same thing I ask everybody else, I'm like, "Are you smart, or are you dumb?" Most people will say they're smart. I'm like, "If you're smart, you know better." If you're dumb, you can say, "All right, I didn't know any better."
The truth is, I knew what I was doing. I knew that dating those people would never lead to anything. That was my way of keeping everybody at arm's length, being free because that's like a core, this thing I've worked on a lot in therapy is like I really need to feel free. Grew up in a very conservative home that was always like, I felt trapped in there. As an Indian girl, you're not allowed to do anything. For me, there's a concept of freedom that was attached.
This way I was in something but not in something. It took me a long time to realize like commitment phobia. That's me saying like, I don't actually want this, but I wanted it. What changed for me is I have admittedly had a lot of sex. There was a point that I was hooking up with somebody, and I literally looked at a fake watch on my hand, and I was like, "All right. I think I want to go."
He was like, "No, you should stay." I was like, "It's late," and it was like 11 o'clock. I knew what I was doing. He let me go, of course, and didn't fight it too much. He knew what I was-- I just needed to get out. I got out. I sat in a car and I cried because that just didn't fulfill me anymore. It wasn't like the sex was bad, or I felt like something, I just literally didn't feel fulfilled, and I was like, oh, I think I want more.
That's like what changed in my life where I was like, "Oh, I think I have had my fun, and I did my thing, and now I actually think I want to meet somebody and grow with them." It didn't happen overnight. It took many years. I've done this podcast for six years. I met my boyfriend three years ago right before the pandemic. Neither of us thought that was going to be the relationship. We never thought that was going to be the one.
We were just putting one foot in front of the other. Now it's like, it is what it is, and I'm very happy. I don't feel that same urge that I used to feel, but it's also somebody who lets me be free, and I let him be free. We're very independent. We're very like, "Hey, listen, if this tomorrow doesn't make us happy, we're going to leave." I think those are all the how you guys talk about those tools and lessons you learn from doing this podcast and all the research we put in is I used to feel like a relationship was me being trapped.
Now I realize I have a choice to get out, and that's up to me. That changed a lot in my head where I was like, oh, I actually have power in this. It's not stuff happening to me. When I did that, and I realized that even when I break up with somebody and a relationship ends, it feels terrible, but when I finally realized like, oh, I'll be okay, I felt a lot like more free to be able to explore people in an authentic way and give of myself and know like, oh, I'll be fine. If you reciprocate, great. If you don't reciprocate, cool. That was my journey in that commitment phobia phase.
Emily: I love that, so well said. I think it really speaks to something that's often frustrated me looking at the traditional dating game is, I do think we receive this message that sure you can be in a relationship, and you can get access to kindness, intimacy, safety, relationship, security, but at the cost of you're not free, you're trapped at this cost. If you don't want to pay that cost, if you want to be free, then you need to sacrifice access to kindness, intimacy, security, all those things.
I do feel like it's sets people up to this track of, okay, either I need to be on the soulmate track, or I need to be on the unfulfilling fuck buddy track, and there's nothing in between. To realize I think that there's truth on both sides where, oh, no, I can be in a committed monogamous relationship and feel that sense of there is freedom, and there is autonomy, and there's respect for who I am as a human being independent of my partner.
What my wish for people is people who want to be on the casual, fuck buddy, just exploring track, even if they're interested in monogamy, to feel like, no, I still deserve access to kindness, respect, communication, safety from someone even if it is just casual and "not committed".
Natasha: 100%. I think it's such a good point because the early stages of my podcast, I think people will hear those kinds of stories where I used to call them flexes. It was like flexible relationships. They were people that we both probably knew on both sides it wasn't going to amount to anything, but it was super respectful and super fun. Some of them, I met their families. I don't even remember really seeing somebody and seeing somebody else at the same time.
We weren't in a relationship. It was just like dating. That's why we call it Kinda Dating. It's like you're kind of dating because everybody says I'm kind of dating somebody. It was like that for me. I very much agree with you. When I was younger, I didn't know that difference. I thought, if you are going to just hang out with somebody casually, you're a little bitchy to each other. You know what I mean? You're not giving enough.
Then I realized as I grew older, I was like, oh, no, I can just be respectful, but we've already put each other in a category. I hate to say that, but I'm like, I know this isn't going to be anything, but I can value our time together and you as a human and be respectful. Those relationships never ended as poorly as they did when I was younger. We knew it wasn't going to work out, and I was like, all right. Then later I could like, if I actually cared about somebody, want to go even further.
Jase: It's just really interesting hearing you talk about this because it's making me think about how a lot of us are brought up with this social guilt about having casual relationships, all the stigma about it, it's like, oh, it's not fulfilling, or you're not actually being nice to these people, or you're somehow taking advantage of them. I think we especially get those messages as people raised as men of that like, oh, if you're doing that, you're a bad person, that kind of stuff.
I think on the other side, the other thing that can happen is it's like, oh, I'm having sex with this person, and I like it, I should try to start a relationship with this person because that's how I can validate myself as a good person. We can get into relationships that are not great matches, maybe they're not terrible, but they're just not great because we feel like we should. It's the flip side of what you were saying of like, we're a little shitty to each other because we feel like we can't be anything other than that. It's like that social pressure on either side is such a weird thing causing us to try to make a relationship something that it doesn't need to be, or that we feel like it can't be.
Natasha: I feel like the extension of that now for me is marriage because I don't believe in the institution, but I believe in a monogamous relationship. Saying, I don't believe in marriage, everybody's like, "Oh, so you want to be with everybody?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "I'm with this guy."
Jase: It's not one or the other.
Natasha: Yes. I'm like, "We're basically married. We live together. I'm on his insurance." I'm like, "Come on, man. What more do you want?" I'm Indian, I'm always doing math. I would rather spend that money on a down payment of a house than a stupid wedding. I don't think those things are, but people don't get those things. That's what you were saying, Jase, but on the next level, like, "Okay, ne--" Before it's like, "Well, I got to be in a relationship." Now it's like, "Well, no, we got to be married."
Emily: 100%. Listening to your story, I did wonder if it was kind of a protection of yourself from that abusive relationship, which was your monogamous long-term relationship, that to a degree your psyche and your brain and everything was basically telling you, "Let's not do this because there is the potential for that abuse again, if you were to get into something long-term."
Natasha: 100%.
Emily: You were healing during that time, which is really important, and I think great to experience something that you didn't have for a really long period of time, and you keep coming back to that freedom aspect. If you felt like, "I'm going to get back into a situation where I'm not going to be free, and I may be abused," that's huge.
Natasha: Yes. That relationship it was physically abusive and mentally and emotionally, so it was like all of them. Definitely, I had a lot of trauma after, and that was the reason I was like, "Oh, no, I don't ever want to get close to anybody again in that way." The development was a lot of first that emotional stuntedness, and then there was the physical aspect was easy. It was like, "Oh, cool, I'll just have sex. Now get the fuck out of my house. Don't stay here."
Again, because you feel trapped when you're in an abusive thing that everything then you just want the opposite of. Like Dedeker was saying, it's not one extreme or the other. Thank God for therapy because at some point I finally found that middle ground where I can exist and then eventually give more to somebody I wanted to give more to. Do you guys think though that commitment issues differ in monogamous versus non-monogamous relationships? Have you guys ever experienced people in your lifestyle that have commitment issues, or is it just like, can't be, you're already open?
Dedeker: Oh, sure. I can speak from my own personal experience. I think that for myself, probably for the last five-ish years or so, I've experienced a lot of anxiety around any kind of new relationship opportunity that comes in, and I would say it probably falls under the flavor of some commitment phobia because what I know about myself is I know that I like to be very invested in my relationships.
I like to be very entwined in my relationships, and so when someone comes along expressing interest or attraction, I get really stressed out about, "Oh, God, maybe I'm interested too, and I want to see where this goes," but like, "Can I show up in the way that I want to for this person? Am I going to have the resources, the time, the energy?" Especially if I feel like I already have a full plate, if I'm like, "I already have two partners and a podcast and all these things."
For me, I think I tend to err on that side of assuming, oh, God, if I connect with someone, they're going to want so much of my time and so much of my energy that I'm just going to be a complete disappointment and a failure to them, and so I better not even go there. The reality being that within non-monogamous relationships, of course, the philosophy is we're all here to customize the relationship. The relationship doesn't have to look like this particular model.
If you're non-monogamous, it's highly unlikely that you're expecting to have 100% of someone's time and energy. We're all already bought into that, but I know for myself, I still have those feelings and those hesitations. I would love to go off on a whole rant about the misuse of the term "relationship anarchy," but I'm going to hold onto that for a second because I want you Jase and Em to weigh in on this question as well.
Emily: I feel like if you see a person, and they are absolutely out there who is interested in non-monogamy, but hasn't done the research or been out in the trenches doing it themselves, or isn't interested in really doing a lot of the work that's involved in communication in non-monogamy, getting rid of the social scripts and the internalized relationships need to look a certain way, and I need to do them that way, then there is the possibility for somebody who is just commitment phobic and wants to fuck a lot of people, and that's it. I don't know.
I think it is potentially easier in those types of conversations that you can have with someone if you are coming to a new relationship saying, "Okay, what does non-monogamy mean to you? What is it that you want your relationship to look like? What is it that you're hoping for in a new relationship with me?"
If you can start with those questions first, then you can weed out the potential commitment phobes or the potential people who just want to have a lot of sex and want to have a lot of fun. They're out there, and that's fine, and maybe that's all that they want their non-monogamy to be, but if you are not a person who wants that, then you can be looking for people who have done a little bit more internal work from that standpoint.
Dedeker: Well, Jase, it's like what you were saying earlier, how a lot of men maybe get a little bit of this conditioning, this weird contradictory conditioning around going out and fucking a bunch of ladies is cool, but also you're not necessarily respected by women for that, or it's considered not a good practice or a respectable practice. I think that produces sometimes the phenomenon that I've seen of just Tinder fuck boys adopting the word non-monogamy or polyamory to try to legitimize--
Emily: That's what I'm talking about to maybe get away from if you were worried about I'm only going to be finding those types of people.
Natasha: I definitely want to talk about that after, for sure.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: That's a thing.
Jase: I actually want to segue into all that a little bit, and I think that an important thing I want to bring up is the, I guess, separating out commitment-phobe from not wanting-- or wanting certain types of relationships and not others. Something I want to get at there with what you're saying is if what you want is to have a lot of sex with a lot of people, I want to be clear that at least from the Multiamory standpoint and for myself, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that.
What I would say is wrong is presenting yourself as if you're trying to have multiple committed non-monogamous relationships when really you just want to have sex and then leave and not let yourself be vulnerable, not have any commitment. It's the misrepresenting that I think is the problem because if you just want to have sex, there's also other people out there that just want to have sex, and that's great. Awesome. Love that. It's so cool.
I think it's more about the having the vulnerability, I guess, to be clear about what it is that you want, and that social messaging makes that hard because for all of us, we're taught that if all you want is sex, you're bad. That's why I wanted to clarify this because it's easy to talk about this in a way that sounds like we're saying that too, and that's not it. It's more the misrepresenting that can be the issue.
Then I guess then to go back to the commitment-phobe thing we were talking about is that I think that from a lot of what we've been talking about, there's that fear of being vulnerable. That it's like you could be non-monogamous and have this fear of letting someone get too close. Not because it's like, I can't stand the idea of caring about someone, but it's that like, but I'm going to get hurt, or I'm going to feel trapped. Even if I can sleep with other people, I might still feel trapped of like, "Gosh, now all my time is taken up, and I've got to invest all this time and effort that I just don't have right now into this new relationship."
I think that it's also worth being aware of it, that it's like if it's a phobia and that's how it feels to you of like, "I want to be doing this thing, and I feel like I'm too scared to, and I can't," then, yes, that's a problem to get over, but if it's, "I don't have the resources to give to this type of relationship," for whatever reason, maybe it's health, maybe it's your job, maybe it's your family, maybe it's your other relationships already. If it's like, I don't have the bandwidth for this, that's also fine. You're like, "I want casual stuff." It's like the difference of still it might look the same on the surface of, "Yes, I just want these casual relationships to sleep with." The difference, hopefully, is that you're able to communicate that more clearly of, "This is what I'm looking for. This is what I have to offer. This is what I'm interested in. If you're interested in something that overlaps with that, super cool. Love that. If not, that's also cool. I'm not going to try to trick you or manipulate you into it."
Natasha: Again, as somebody who lived really the commitment-phobic life, I feel I was pretty ethical about it. The first day I would be like, "I don't want to be your girlfriend." I feel in these heteronormative relationships, guys would read that as, "Oh, that means this is reverse psychology. She wants me." They would inevitably ask me out. I'm like, "I said it right at the beginning. I don't want to."
Jase: There's books teaching that exact thing.
Natasha: I want to come back to-- Dedeker's saying-- Firstly, I appreciate you being honest about that. I'm very curious how you feel because to me, it doesn't sound like a commitment issue, it sounds like setting boundaries because we're still human at the end of the day. Even if you have chosen any lifestyle you've chosen, we all have a limitation around our ability and capabilities and how much we can balance in life.
It just sounds like you're aware enough to know, "Hey, I have $100. This is all I can spend it on. I just don't have more than this $100. There's a great monk named Dundapani, and he talks about that, about where are you allotting your energy, and where are you spending your energy? If your energy is $100, where are you spending it? Just sounds like you're more aware that's, "Oh, I value maybe I have $5 of this $100 left, and I really value where I'm going to put that $5 because it's like a stock market." If you'd rather invest in Apple than some random I don't know.
Dedeker: Also, I'm very financially conservative, so it tracks, the metaphor tracks. I think if I really have to strip down the concept of commitment for myself, especially when we're thinking about a landscape where monogamy doesn't necessarily equal commitment, where many different relationships can take many different forms and still be fulfilling and satisfying for the people in them, for me, commitment boils down to regardless of what shape our relationship takes, if things get difficult, if we hit a snag, if we hit an obstacle, if we hit a disagreement, I'm not just going to run for the hills.
It doesn't mean the relationship is going to last. Maybe we hit an obstacle and we realize, "This is not going to be a good relationship for us. This is not going to be feasible for us, and we have to decide to end it, hopefully in a compassionate way." For me, that's what I think what I try to offer in "committing" to someone and also what I want to get from people who I want to commit to me is that sense of, "I'm not just going to run away. You're not just going to run away at the first sign of things being difficult." I don't know. It's the thing where I think that should be fairly obvious or plain or a given for relationships, but it's not, necessarily.
It's not, especially when we're in the confusing dating landscape of we're not sure what we want. We're just trying to keep it casual. "I don't know if it's worth it to work through this conflict with you. I don't know if it's worth it to be vulnerable with you." Sometimes it can be hard to suss out. I think this is all tied in with the whole ghosting thing or breadcrumbing thing, where it's rather than even being committed to being vulnerable with you about, actually, "I don't want to see you anymore, I'd rather just ghost." I think that commitment can scale right, where it's even if I have someone who's a fuck buddy, I can at least be committed that I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to make an effort to work through these things with you instead of just leaving you high and dry. I think that's what that brings up for me.
We are going to take a quick break to talk about sponsors for this episode. If you appreciate the show, if you're learning a lot, please take a moment to listen to our sponsors and also to use our special promo codes. It directly helps us to keep this show going. Thank you.
Natasha: I'm very curious what you guys think because Jase talks about it a little bit, but you guys mentioned that when you first started the podcast, you were one of the only ones. Now, I'm sure there are plenty, and it's nonmonogamy and ethical nonmonogamy and polyamory and all of that. It's much more common term. People have heard it a lot more, open relationships. Do you think that this is a fad? Do you think it's an excuse, like you said, for fuck boys to do their thing, or is it truly that people are realizing, "I think there are different options"?
Emily: I definitely think it's the latter. I do think a lot of people-- Full disclosure, I was born out of an affair. My dad was married with kids. He met my mom and they had an affair and they had me. I think that that was the norm for so long for so many people, and it was accepted, and it was okay. It sucked, and often the burden came down on the woman to have to deal with that for many, many years, and the guy could go off and do whatever and have multiple affairs throughout the course of his lifetime.
My partner, his mother, was also cheated on. There's so many people out there who that's just the case. I think now with a lot of women saying, "No, I'm not okay with that," and also, "I'm interested in seeing what multiple partnerships look like as well," and so many women really thriving with that model, I think that so many people who are younger than even we are have decided, "Hey, I'm interested in moving in that direction and fully understanding the potential of what my life could look like with multiple partnerships, seeing who I can become with multiple people."
No, I really don't think it's a fad. I think that we'll see it as more and more accepted as time goes on, and the visibility that it has now has created more opportunity for people to understand it and be interested in it.
Dedeker: It's so funny when Emily says, "No, it's not a fad." Often I find people listening. Sometimes I can freak them out a little bit, so I feel like I need to rush in to say, "Monogamy is here to stay."
Emily: Oh, for sure. Of course. It's great for a lot of people, for many, many people.
Dedeker: I do not, by any means, see non-monogamy suddenly becoming the dominant relationship model on a wide scale. It's probably also not going away as well because we're looking at the latest statistics show anywhere from 5% to 10% of people in the US are currently in some form of consensually non-monogamous relationship. 30% of people have indicated that their ideal relationship structure is something other than monogamy. A minority, but a sizable minority. I do think that monogamy is still going to be the majority. I do think especially monogamous marriage is something that's still so incentivized, that that's going to probably be the default relationship type for most people for the foreseeable future, and that's a great thing.
We haven't got to talk about this yet in this conversation, but something that really drives us on multiamory is the idea of being able to create more of a landscape where a wide variety of relationship structures coexist. That maybe sounds a little kumbaya, but we see it. I think a lot of non-monogamous people are very used to being othered by the mainstream monogamous community. "Oh, look at those commitment-phobes over there. Look at those sex addicts over there. Just look at those weirdos over there."
The same thing we've seen happens on the other side, that in non-monogamous communities, we can be like, "Look at those toxic monogamous people who can't get over their neuroses." For us, I think we're very motivated by this idea of different relationship practices don't have to be inherently threatening to each other.
Natasha: Agreed. To me, it's like that discussion around religion when everybody's always trying to push theirs. I'm like, I personally believe in God, but I have no issues about anybody who doesn't. You could be an atheist and still be a great person. It's just about I just don't feel like there's one path to anything. There are multiple roads, and I personally don't think I could be non-monogamous, but I respect it.
I'm like, "Oh, yes, if somebody else is into it, I'm totally cool." I've dated people who later said to me, "Hey, I was thinking of an open relationship." I was like, "I totally support you going on that journey. I don't think I could do it, but I think you should." Then they were like, "I want it with you." I'm like, "That makes it complicated because I wouldn't be authentic to myself, but I think you should."
I just think if people are open and honest and live and let live, who cares? It makes no difference to me how you guys live. Whatever works for you. It shouldn't matter to you what works for me. It's just-- A lot of it gets driven by ego of us wanting our lifestyle to be right because it justifies us and our way of living, and I'm like, who cares?
Jace: 100%
Natasha: Maybe you're 100% totally right and I'm wrong, I don't know. I'll figure it out later and then I'll change my mind. Who cares?
Dedeker: Well, also to avoid pain, because it's like that comes up in the context between two people, where someone's like, "I want an open relationship." You're like, "Well, I don't." We're both incentivized to want to avoid that pain by making ourselves right, as in what we see with a nonmonogamous person, it is the, "Well, let me try to convince you and persuade you about why this is a good idea or why you shouldn't be attached to monogamy or why, trust me, you're still going to feel okay," and the monogamous person tried to convince the other person why, "No, this is horrible, and you're being irresponsible, and this is awful."
This is going to be taking maybe a little bit of a left turn, but this is something the three of us have been talking about recently, talking about dating and dating new people when you're in this position of running a podcast about relationships and dating. For you, Natasha, how did you meet your partner, did your partner know about the podcast? How did you talk to your partner about the podcast? Was that weird at all?
Natasha: I don't even attempt to hide it because I'm all over on social media. It's everywhere. There's no point. I never put it in my profile, but as soon as somebody saw my Instagram or checked me out, they were immediately like, "Oh, you have a dating podcast. Does that mean you're going to be talking about me?" My simplest thing to anybody was always, "Don't do anything stupid, and I won't talk about you."
Natasha: I was also like the podcast is not about me, like you guys, it's not about my day-to-day life, it's about a topic. I often tell stories to initiate the conversation but not about me. Anybody I have discussed on the podcast has always had a nickname, an alias, but my boyfriend, I think the part that we had to set boundaries about, and I learned this with a couple of relationships before him, was they would start listening to the podcast to support me, but as a result, would get information about me that they hadn't earned, or they hadn't asked me about, and so then they would know more about me than I knew about them.
It's nice that they were trying to be supportive. Nobody has ever had an issue that I've talked about sexual experiences or anything like that. There's no judgment, I just wouldn't even date somebody who was like that. Still, my boyfriend now he had heard stuff, and then at some point, he himself came to the conclusion, "I think I want to learn it from you." I was like, "I think that's probably best, but I appreciate you supporting me and if there's a topic or something you really want to listen about because you want to learn, you should, but don't do it as a research method on me." That was the only thing.
I do think it makes me a better dater for sure now, I don't know if you guys feel like that. I feel accountable more than I did, where if I talk about something, I'm like, "Ah, shit, I got to actually do this, so let's fuckin talk about it." It's like, "How are you feeling even though I'm, like
Dedeker: Oh God, the power of you should know better. Again, I think the three of us will be the first to admit we don't always practice what we preach, we make mistakes all the time with communication, we also get angry and fuck up in our relationships and don't make the best choices, but there is definitely something really compelling about having that voice in the back of your mind being like, "I literally just talked about this last week, I probably should be choosing to communicate in a better way right now. Okay, I guess I'll have to communicate in a better way right now, even though it'd be much easier to not."
I do think that accountability is annoying but ultimately helpful is the conclusion I'll come to. I don't know if you feel differently, Jase.
Emily: I think it's necessary and really challenging at times. I feel like a fraud at times when I'm not communicating with my partner as well as I should be and those are the moments when I need to stop the conversation, go into a room by myself, and really think and really emotionally regulate and really have a moment to stop and understand for myself, what I could be doing better and take accountability for the things that I'm not doing well, and then come back to the conversation when I feel like I can.
In terms of dating, I haven't done that in a minute.
Jase: I was just going to say it's like there's the two pieces to it. It's like on the one hand, I feel like I have so many tools to communicate well when we need to. It's like, "Oh, I've got all these tools that we've researched or that we've created or whatever for how to have check-ins or how to communicate better." It's great, but then the other pieces, the just doing it-- That's when I was like, "Okay. I don't want to but I've got to." That kind of a fix. On the one hand, I think it's easier because we have a lot of tools and we talked about them a lot, but the other one is still just as hard as it is for anyone, like, "I don't want to have this talk but I guess I need to."
Dedeker: The worst thing for me though, as far as dating people are having these conversations is our podcast, we're constantly looking at research, and so then all the time, someone will be like, "This topic, what do you feel about it, what do you think about it?" The first thing my brain is like, "Well, there's this research study at the University of Michigan that says yada, yada, yada." I say that all the time, and sometimes it turns people off or sometimes people are like, "Well, how do you really feel about it?" I'm just so used to us doing that, but sometimes it's hard to divorce my brain from that because it's fascinating.
Natasha: Also, sometimes, I don't know if you guys feel like that, I just want to be humans sometimes, so I slug up, and I don't want to fix it right away.
Natasha: Recently, we, we had a tiff, and I realized I was being probably avoidant, where I should have talked about it right in the beginning, but I was like, "I don't want to, I don't fucking want to," and then I just didn't until then finally I calm myself down. Emily, I'm like you, when I'm ready to talk about it, I'll talk about it. I do think there's just an element of humanity and just being human. It is fun. I'm just going to use the word fun. It is fun to sometimes just get angry and feel things and be on a spectrum of emotions rather than doing everything by the book and being proper. We know but sometimes, it's okay to just not follow it. Do you guys feel like that with your podcast, that idea of when you met people, that they know more about you, or how has their feeling toward you been different because of your podcasts?
Jase: Well, I first wanted to share that I did have a situation years ago, where I was trying to communicate something, and I'm like, "Oh, this is hard because I don't know what I'm doing. It's awkward. Their response was, "Wait, but you're the expert on this, you know how to do this." That, for me, was like, "I don't know if I can do this relationship anymore." It's like, "I can't have you think of me that way. It's not a healthy start for anyone. I don't want that power dynamic there or that impression of-"
Natasha: You're not somebody's teacher and the counselor for things and always a fixer-upper.
Jase: I think that's something that's really changed for us as our podcast as it's become bigger and more people know about it, and it's much more established is it went from, "This is a cool, attractive thing about me that I do this podcast to--" If you listen to this show, I feel like maybe we shouldn't because there's these weird dynamics built in. If you listen to it after we start dating, or if you maybe have listened to a couple of episodes, sure, but if you're an avid listener of it, it's just so hard to come back from that vast disparity in perception of being an expert. Even if I'm not teaching you stuff on a day to day basis, I am on the show, and so there's still that dynamic in our relationship, even if we're not doing it in person. Then also, just like you said, you know all these things that I've shared, or at least you have an impression of what you think I am based on what we talk about on the show that you didn't learn from me and it's not actually based on your experience of me.
It's a real complicated knot to untangle, and so for myself, and I think for Dedeker as well, has led to this, I just kind of want to try to stay away from dating someone who's an active listener of the show.
Dedeker: Well, and Natasha, I actually really appreciate talking about this with you because I really appreciate that turn of phrase you used about, "Oh, they're getting information about me that they didn't earn," and maybe it's a little weird to think about how do you earn that information or not, but I think that was really clarifying for me that it's almost like wanting to connect with someone on, I don't know, is it on my own terms, is it wanting to control, I'm not sure what it is, but it's like I want to build a relationship with someone who first has met me for me as opposed to meeting me through this persona that they've perceived of me.
Again, it doesn't mean that it has to be, you've never heard of the podcast or you've never listened to any episodes, but it is. There's something about being able to build a connection, even if it's just friendship, because all three of us have gone on to build friendships with people who have listened to the show, and it feels a little bit different because it's like, "Oh, I've gotten to have interactions with you outside of you just listening to my show," or "We've gotten to know each other, we've gotten to share vulnerable stories. I've gotten to talk more about my flaws. You've gotten to have a more fully fleshed out picture of me as a human being, which means I feel like I can trust your connection to me a little bit more. I can trust, oh you're actually wanting to connect with me, seeing me, warts and all, as opposed to just seeing the glossy veneer of what's on the show.
I say glossy veneer as though we make ourselves sound like badasses on the show, which we don't really do either, but you know what I mean. Yes, that helps. This has been a topic we've been talking about a lot because we always tell the joke that when we started the podcast, we thought we'd be expanding our dating pool of finding more cool non-monogamous people to date. We've actually shrunk our dating pool, ironically.
Natasha: I think it comes down at the end of the day to what intimacy is. Maybe earning is a strong word, but it is kind of that, that when you meet somebody, everybody's on one playing field, on a date. Then somebody has done something to move themself up in that pool. You give them a little bit more and then either they've showed up for you in whatever way you want, that they earn a little bit more, and then they get-- It's vice versa too.
We're doing the same thing for somebody else, is nobody's just-- Somebody who is just giving out information about themself and all their secrets and whatever their life experiences for no reason just want to be heard. That's not a relationship. If you're doing it to truly connect with somebody on an intimate level, it has a different meaning to it. We are connecting with our audience because they have showed up for us every time, and so we give a piece of ourself to them a little bit more. A lot of time, I'm sure you guys get it back too, from them when they tell you something-
Dedeker: Oh yes.
Jase: Yes
Natasha: -then you give. If it's a relationship where somebody has just listened in and is just taking, and they don't want to offer anything back in return, then yes, you do feel a little bit more exposed and that dynamic of information is like, that scale feels a little off to me.
Dedeker: It's like wanting a sense that we've built intimacy together.
Natasha: Yes. You want to feel like you're on the same page about it. Otherwise, it's just like love bombing. I don't know. It's just like giving everything and the other person just-- You don't want that. To come back to this communicating our commitment issues/not in the same vein, but if you want to explore non-monogamy or alternative relationship structures, what are some of you guys' tips of approaching that conversation with your partners?
What about--? The example I gave you with my situation where I was with somebody for five-and-a-half months, and then they came up and they were first, suddenly being weird, and then their thing was like, "Well, I think I want to be in an open relationship." I was like, "Oh, that's cool. You should. Probably not with me, but you should." Then it was like, "No, but I want it with you."
Then I also asked, I was like, "Well, what is your reason behind it? I didn't know you felt this way, and I thought we talked about that in the beginning, but what are you feeling?" It was like, "Well, what if I want to go for lunch with somebody else who was a girl?" I was like, "So go for lunch with somebody else, the girl. I don't understand what the-- I was like, "Well, if you want to fuck them, then you should probably just let me know."
That's a different thing, but I didn't understand the question at first. What happens in those kinds of situations where somebody does want something, but another person is like, "Hey, that's not what I signed up for."
Dedeker: Sure. This happens all the time. Having this conversation at the very beginning of a relationship and meeting someone is different from having this conversation when we've been together for 10 years monogamously, is different from "I'm single and on a dating app, and I know I want to be non-monogamous and trying to figure out how do I communicate that to people."
Those all have their own nuances and differences, but something that I often come back to with having this conversation is sometimes even before bringing it up to a partner, it can be helpful to do some of that exploratory work around, "Okay, when I say I want an open relationship, what am I actually wanting to get? What's underneath that term for me?" Is it like that person said, "I want to sometimes be able to get lunch with someone of the opposite sex and maybe flirt with them or have the option to have sex with them"?
Is it, "There's something kinky that I've always wanted to explore, and I want to explore it in a way that involves joining a kink community and playing with multiple people"? Is it, "There's a part of my sexuality that I've never gotten to bring to the surface, and I want to explore that"? Is it, I don't know, "I saw a news story about this throttle raising a baby, and I thought the idea of co-parenting with multiple partners sounds great"?
Getting really down to what's actually drawing you to it and being able to use that as a basis of talking about things, because, I don't know, sometimes what it is that you're wanting can be found in not just non-monogamy but in many other relationship practices as well. Again, that's not necessarily something that's like I want to say in all situations, bringing that to the conversation is going to make it go 100% great, but I do think some of that pre-work to get clear on, "Actually what does draw me to this and excite me about this, or is it I'm just afraid of monogamy"" Getting clear on that helps.
Emily: I think like the situation that you were in, if you are the person coming to an already established partner and saying, "I want to open up," there is always that possibility that that person is going to say no. That is just a reality, I think, of coming to someone and changing the dynamic that you already have established. That's a challenge for me. Jase, obviously, we came to a meeting of the minds together, which was unique, I think, but also really fantastic for us because we were able to go on that journey at the same time and do it together. We did have a moment three months after the fact where I wanted to close it back up because I said, "I'm not actually really ready for this and I would rather us be monogamous for a little while again."
It wasn't until I realized, hey, I actually am interested in this person from my past, and I want to go and sleep with this person and see what that's like that I said to Jase, "Yes, actually, I'm into the idea again, and let's actually try this for real." It is really helpful, of course, if both people can find an established why together. Sometimes that happens through reading of books, through actually going on dating apps and finding-- "I'm interested in that person, that person looks fun and exciting to me." There's a lot of ways that people can approach it, for sure.
Jase: I just wanted to say as far as the doing that research and the preparation, I think getting clear on your own motivations is good, but I would encourage people to not get too attached to it looking a particular way. It's like there's a difference between understanding like, "What is it that I'm seeking or what is it that I feel like I'm lacking?" or something like that compared to, "I think this is the solution," because if you're trying to do this with a partner, you're going to have to collaborate on that solution.
Sure, there's a possibility that there's just no solving it, that you just realize you're actually not compatible because of this fundamental difference in how you want to do relationships. Yes, that's possible, but there also might be, as we've been teasing, some other ways this could look. That that this might not have to be, "Oh, well, I figured it out and our vision is we need to meet a third and they're going to come live with us and raise our kids with us," and the other partner's like, "What the fuck are you talking about? Like, "Holy shit."
Now you're attached to this one vision and I can't get on board because I don't want that. Whereas if it came from, "Well, really what I want is a threesome sound fun. I'd like to do that more often." It's very possible or at least more likely your partner's like, "Okay, sure, I can get on board with maybe trying that," as a starting point rather than jumping to, "We want someone to move in with us and live with us," or something. Right?
Emily: Yes.
Natasha: Look, I've thought about it, I've asked myself. Truly you have to ask yourself those questions. I know I am not the most-- I feel like I'm emotionally intelligent, but I'm not perfect, and I'm not going to act like I'm some highly evolved being that would be totally fine with this. I'm like, "I don't like sharing." I just know that I-
Dedeker: That's great that you know that about yourself.
Natasha: -know that about me, but that said, I'm very open with other things. My boyfriend and I talk about it where even with others I say I'm fine if somebody flirts, it's human. It's human to be attracted to others. It's human to want to flirt with them. Just don't do it in front of me. I don't want to see it happening but, yes, if in your regular life, you meet people, you take meetings-- My boyfriend's a good-looking guy, like of course, it's going to happen. It's inevitable. We live in L.A. You're going to meet some attractive person, and you're going to want to flirt, but just know your boundaries, know to be respectful, and the same works vice versa for me.
I'm open to the humanity of it all, but I also just know my limitations around it. Could that change? Maybe, but it didn't at the time.
Jase: To go back to one of your earlier questions about, is non-monogamy here to stay or is it a fad? I think that the real trend underneath it all is people opening up the idea of what's possible and what their relationships could look like. If you think about just during our lifetimes, how much that's already changed in terms of same-sex marriages and relationships and how much more commonplace that is now than it was--
If you watch Rent, the musical, so much of that musical is just like, "Oh, really? People are--" It's already super dated, and that's not that old of a musical. Just the whole concept of the waiter at the restaurant would be weird about you having a same-sex relationship, I'm like "Whatever." I guess maybe if you're deep out in the boonies in Texas somewhere, but-- It's that weird.
Emily: That was 20 years-
Jase: That's what I mean.
Emily: -before same-sex marriage was even legal.
Jase: That's my point is that it's only 20 years. During our lifetimes we've seen this huge amount of change. To go back to what you were saying, Natasha, "You could flirt, but don't do it in front of me." It's very possible there's another couple that's like, "I want you to flirt in front of me. I don't want you to sleep with them, but I want to get off on them flirting with you and knowing they can't have you," or it's that "I want to watch you have sex with them," or "I want people to watch us have sex," or whatever.
There's so many options, and I think that's the part that-- My dream is we have a lot of options. We're not just defaulting to this one way of doing it, and either you're successful at it or it sucks, but it's like, oh, we get to build our own thing. We get to customize how we want to do this, rather than just focusing on is it this thing or this other thing?
Natasha: 100%. There are so many options and lifestyles. I love it. I'm just like, that's great. I hope people don't feel stuck now because there are really people who are into everything, and there's an app for everything.
Jase: Of course.
Natasha: I love it. Even between my friends, some of my friends go to sex clubs, and they have such different approaches even to that experience. You think anybody who walks into it must all be open to the same thing, and they're not. Everybody wants super different about how they approach it, what they want done to them, what they don't want done to them. Some people just like to watch, some people like to partake. Some people-- I have one of my friends, he just likes standing at the bar, and he's not being a creeper either, but he's also like, "I'm cool just being around the environment but not partaking."
Jase: Same is true at Swingers clubs and resorts and at non-monogamy mixers and events. You can't assume everyone wants the same thing.
Emily: Totally.
Natasha: This has been such a fascinating conversation, guys. I'm so glad I got to meet Jase and Emily, and it's so great seeing you again, Dedeker. This was so good.
Dedeker: Natasha, could you share with our listeners where they can find more about you and your work in the podcast?
Natasha: You can find everything about me at natashachandel.com or We're Kinda Dating Across the Board. We're on all the podcast platforms.
Jase: This has been great. Thank you so much for joining us today, Natasha.
Natasha: Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun to talk to such experienced folks. It was fun.