448 - A Polyamory Devotional: Conversation with Evita Sawyers
Welcome back, Evita!
Evita Sawyers was last on the show for episode 310: Polyamory Reminders, and has rejoined us today to talk about her new book, A Polyamory Devotional: 365 Daily Reflections for the Consensually Nonmonogamous. During this episode, she elaborates on the following topics:
Her divorce and current polyamorous journey.
The process of writing her book and the choice to call it a devotional.
Moving past old hurts and pain.
Benefits of polyamory beyond having multiple partners.
Feeling a shift in all relationships and what that experience has been like for her.
She also was kind enough to answer some of our listeners’ questions:
“How do you navigate the murkiness of having to talk about your own relationships in your book when your words could affect people you’ve been in relationships with? How in particular do you navigate this when you’ve got to be accountable for times when you may have hurt others, where writing about this publicly might be tricky? And what do you do when other people’s experiences don’t line up with what you’ve written about?”
“How is monogamy and the colonization of spirituality interconnected?”
“Did she see her polyam journey in the start going in the direction it is today? What's been the biggest surprise as she continued down this journey? Has she ever wished she wasn't polyamorous and could close Pandora's box and undo it all?”
You can find more about Evita on Facebook or Instagram @Lavitaloca34. Check out her book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're talking to Evita Sawyers about her new book, A Polyamory Devotional: 365 Daily Reflections for the Consensually Nonmonogamous. Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers is a non-monogamy coach, speaker, and educator, creator of today's polyamory reminder, and her approach is both frank yet empathetic. She's appreciated for her vulnerable openness about her own challenges in non-monogamy and helping others to grow on their own journeys.
If you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show a lot, you can check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships. You can put those two next to each other on the shelf. Our book covers some of our most commonly used and shared relationship communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book, or wherever fine books are sold, and at the end of the episode and in our show notes, we will have links to buy Evita's book as well. Evita Sawyers, thank you so much for joining us today.
Evita: I am so excited to be here. You have no idea. I was looking forward to this conversation. I love talking to you all. Thank you for having me.
Emily: Amazing, because the last time you were on the show was our Episode 310, and that was back in 2020, which is incredible thinking like how far we've all come since then, how much has happened, just the changes in our world, all of that. I remember reading in your book as well, and I didn't even realize this, that you started Daily Polyamory Reminder around the pandemic. It kind of came out of that. Am I correct in that?
Evita: Yes, that's true. We were all stuck in the house with nothing to do, and I gave myself a challenge to see if I could come up with something every day because I had the time. It started in the pandemic in 2020 around March.
Emily: Wow, so right when the pandemic was starting, that's very cool. Then also when we had you on the show last time, it was just the beginnings of your separation and moving into your divorce. I was just curious how things were going with that. Can you give us any updates? How are you doing?
Evita: Absolutely. We are officially divorced as of May of this year, if I'm not mistaken. I got my divorce papers in the mail which is super surreal because even though I had known that I was going through the process and it wasn't surprising, there was something about the finality of it that was still impactful. I have since moved across the country. When I was on the show, I was living in San Diego at the time and I made the decision to move back to New Jersey, which is originally where I'm from, to reorient myself.
I moved in with my mom. I have to stop saying my husband, my ex-husband, and the children, they stayed in California and I moved over to New Jersey. This cross-country move from my kids, from the home that I lived in for 21 years, coming back home to where I grew up which I hadn't lived in since I was 17. Then now creating a new life as an adult, being single when I've literally never been single, my adult life. I met my husband when I was 21, if I'm not mistaken, and we got married.
I was 21 turning 22. I have a brief period of singleness as an adult. I was in the military. I met him right after I got out. We got married in-- I've been married for most of my adult life. Now I'm navigating being single and polyamorous, which is interesting, it's a different experience. It's a much different experience. Fortunately, I will say the children are doing well. They come over to visit. I go over there to visit them.
My former spouse and I get along very well. It hasn't been bitter or acrimonious. I actually was just talking to him because I was like, "Do you want a copy of the book?" He was like, "Oh, I don't know." He said, yes, so I'll be sending him an autographed copy of the book. The question took him off guard. He said, yes, he wants a copy. As far as things go, I really have no complaint.
Emily: That's excellent. Wow.
Jase: Awesome. During all of that move and everything is when you were writing this book and going through the publishing process for that. How's that been managing all that? We just published our book earlier this year and it was so much more work after the actual writing than I expected, at least. I think Dedeker was the only one who knew what to expect. Unfortunately, she's not with us today because she's out sick with a cold. How is that for you? What was that experience of the publishing process like?
Evita: I wasn't prepared for, I guess, how long it actually took. It is a long process. A friend of mine told me that because she works in publishing so she said it's like having a baby, it is a long process, a long gestation period. I thought it would be easy because, they were all posts that I had written, not all of them, some of them were brand new. I thought it would be easy to just compile them together because I had been doing it for such a long time. I was fortunate enough that both of the compiling and the writing because when I got to the end of the book, I still had about 40 reminders that I actually had to generate and write because I didn't have a full 365. I did not have a full 365 when I went and pulled them off because I had been doing it for a while. I was like, "Oh, yes, I'm fine. I should have 365." I did it.
Then there were some that I was like, "Yes, this one sounds like the other one so I'm going to take that away." I had about 40 that I had to just write off the cuff, which that was challenging. Then the ones that I had written, I had to reformat because I had a word count. I had a word count for the reminder and then I had a word count for the little blurb underneath it. Some of them had to be, edited and adjusted.
That was interesting. Going to Ecuador was like a writer's retreat. That's mostly what I did that entire time. I'm grateful to my friends for opening up that space. It was a journey. It was a process. I kept telling myself because I'm notorious for starting things and not finishing it and on my video, "You're going to do this. You're going to finish this. You're going to finish, see the thing through to the end," and thankfully I did.
Emily: I was so impressed with all of the additional information that you put underneath each specific prompt and that you also had a homework assignment or at least something for people to think about in addition which is really cool. How was that process of expanding what you had been writing since the pandemic out into a fully fleshed book that also includes thought prompts for the reader and things like that? So much of it is also includes your personal story in the midst of every single thing that you're putting in there. Can you talk a little bit about all of that and fleshing out what became the book from just the daily reminders that you do every single day?
Evita: Yes. I wanted it to be more. I tell people all the time-- when people ask me, what do you want people to get from the book? My main thing is I want people to find themselves. I don't want this to just be me writing this manifesto to create this army of people, who think and feel like me. I really want people to be reminded as they're reading this that this is not me telling you what to think and feel. This is me presenting an idea to you. Then you do the self-reflection so that you can find out where you land on this thing.
Some of the stuff you read, you may agree with. Some of the stuff you read, you may not. I hope you do find things that you don't agree with because that's the point. The point is for you to find out what your answers are and not just parrot mind. Because of that, I wanted to have a space where people didn't just read it, but people actually sat with themselves and thought, what do I think about this? How do I feel about this? When I ask myself this question, what comes up for me? Because that to me is most important.
I feel like so much of our movements through relationships is wanting someone to tell us what to think or wanting someone to tell us what to do or having voices that are telling us what to think and feel. One of the first things that I really drove home as I really dive deep into non-monogamy is you got to start coming up with your own answers for this stuff because these pre-programmed and preconditioned ideas that you have, they ain't working. You got to come up with what your own answers are.
I wanted to have something at the end for people to, like I said, dig into themselves and go, where do I stand on this? How do I feel about this? It was a little challenging because you have to write open-ended questions. You can't write things where people can just say yes or no. Trying to find out what the open-ended question was about, the things so that I could present it to people. Then, like I said, going through and trimming some of the fads is like, "Okay, you don't have to say. Some are very verbose person if you didn't know, so loquacious. Some of it was going, "Okay, we don't have to say that you can trim that down. You already said that."
Then some of it was hard because I was like, "But I don't want to cut this. I feel like this is important." There was some moments where that was challenging, too, because I'm like, "I really want this to be included." Sometimes, that created opportunity for me to go, "Okay, I can't talk about this here because I don't have the space, but maybe I can pull this out and actually create a separate polyamory reminder just about this thing that I wanted to include here that just didn't have the room for."
I think people don't really appreciate how challenging it is to say all of these really, really, really nuanced things in this tiny character count and try to make sure that you're saying the right thing. Even one reminder, I could probably pull three or four different things out of it and create something separate about it. That was navigating, like I said, what I wanted to say, how I wanted to say it, making sure that it was reflective of what I wanted to communicate, but then also fit the format.
Also provided an opportunity for people, like I said, to examine themselves, which is really the main driver for why I wanted to do this is I want people to go, "Hey, sit with yourself and ask yourself, what are my questions? Or what are my answers?" When we have more surety in our inner voice, when we know what our answers are for ourselves, that creates a lot of security in our movement through relationships. When we're not going, "I don't know how I think and feel about this." That was really what was most important for me. Is telling people, "Hey, I want you to find yourself in these pages, not find me."
Jase: I think that it's such a nice thing, too, for people starting out or people who have been doing this for a while because it gives you these prompts to think about some of these questions and where your values are before you're in a situation where you've got to make that decision right now, and it actually affects somebody else. It's like a lot of times we just don't even realize what sorts of things we haven't thought about yet because it's so new, and we don't have all these built-in cultural values around what's normal, what's right, whatever.
I think honestly that can be an advantage too, because sometimes, even in monogamy, that cultural baggage that we come in with, we think, gives us all the answers. Maybe it's because we didn't really think it through. Like you were saying that developing your own thoughts and your own voice and your own feelings about these things is so important. I think this is a great way to explore those. You have it listed out, so there's one for each day for 365 days. Although I also think this would be really great to just flip to a random page now and again and just-
Evita: Oh, for sure.
Jase: -come back to it or bookmark them, stuff like that.
Evita: Right. I like it because I feel like it's kind of a choose-your-own-adventure, so you could flip it open and say, "Universe, speak to me," and just open it to a page that day. You can read it once a day, you can take one and read it for a week and sit with it. I like that that the format is that you can move in and out of it how you want to, and that was also important for me as well. I feel like a lot of times, people don't have the time to sit and read a book from start to finish, even though I appreciate books in that way. Even I, sometimes, I'm just like, I just don't have time to read. I like that this allows people to go, "I may put this down for a couple of weeks, and then I can just go back to it and pick it up and find something that speaks to me and that works." I like the format for that.
Then yes, you're right. Often you don't know what a situation is going to pop because so many situations that happened in non-monogamy are so foreign. If you told me when I was walking down the aisle with my husband on the day that we got married that fast forward 15, 16 years that I'm going to be in bed with him and his girlfriend, and we're going to sleep at night. I would've been like, "What?" But there I was.
Evita: I would tell my partner often when I was going through different things, different challenges in non-monogamy and sometimes exhibiting behaviors that I didn't even know that I was capable of because I was so activated and him being like, "Who is this person?" I'm like, "I don't know who it is either. You and me are both figuring out who this new person is." It's because a lot of scenarios that come up in non-monogamy they bring out sides of ourselves that we didn't know existed or we hadn't had an opportunity to be in a situation that activated that.
I do like that it gives people an opportunity to maybe have a little bit of foresight. It's, "Oh, I didn't even think about that as a scenario," or, "Let me think about how I would respond in that moment." That way, you're not going in with no game plan. You've already thought about it a little bit beforehand and thought about maybe what your integrity is or how you would like to have shown up. I like that option too because if I would've had an opportunity to get some examples of like, these are some things that could happen to you, or these are some experiences that you might have in this situation, I might've had a chance to think about these things so I wasn't shooting from the cuff. In the beginning, my shooting from the cuff was nothing nice. I think that's a lot of people's experiences for sure.
Jase: Before we get into going through some of these particular ones and talking about the ones that we really enjoyed and maybe picking out some of your favorites, I did just want to ask why you decided to use the word devotional for describing this. As someone who grew up Christian, it's like, oh, yes. You got your prayers for each day or different verses you're going to read or whatever. I get that but I was just curious for you, did you have any debate about, do I call it that or not? Is that going to put off some people that maybe don't like that it might be a religious thing or anything like that?
Evita: I'm actually glad you brought this up because really the choice to call it a devotional was more about just not having any other language. That was the format that I had seen, that kind of bookend. It's called a devotional. I think I've only ever seen one other book that wasn't called that, called The Book of Awakening by Mark Nepo. It's the same way, daily prompts. Most of the time when I see books like that, they're called devotionals, so that's what I called it. I will say that two things. Number one, polyamory, for me, is a very deeply spiritual practice. It's heavily tied with my spiritual development and my spiritual growth and my movement through my spirituality is very heavily tied to my polyamory. In that regard, there's a connection.
Then also, to me, when I think about the term devotional, it also brings up the term intentional. As I'm taking intentional time, I'm devoting intentional time to sit and to think and to reflect on my polyamorous experience, my polyamorous identity, my polyamorous personality. I find that when I am intentional about those things, I have a better experience. Like I said, that when I'm just traipsing through it, letting stuff happen to me, but when I'm intentional about, hey, what do I want to say about who I am in polyamory? What do I want to say about the partner that I am? What do I want to say about the kind of experience that I want to have?
Honestly, all relationship structures could benefit from that level of intentionality because that level of intentionality doesn't even happen in monogamy, which is why we have a lot of the problems of monogamy that we do. Is because we just assumed that these scripts that were written for us about how it should function is just what we should be doing. We don't bring a level of intentionality and devotion to like, hey, I'm really going to sit with myself and think about what do I want to be able to say about how I move and how I function and what my relationship space looks like.
While it wasn't well thought out to use the term devotional, it was more just like I didn't have, for lack of a better term. Also now it has a deeper meaning for me in the sense that it's connected to polyamory as a spiritual practice for me and then also my own integrity about how do I be intentional about this thing that I'm doing so that I am showing up well to myself.
Emily: I think that's so incredible. Just the devotion to the practice of polyamory as well as the practice of bettering oneself within whatever relationship structure you're in. I totally agree with you. Just the opportunity to be able to sit with yourself on a daily or a weekly or whatever basis it is and actually ask yourself these questions that you give throughout the book. Be able to reflect and understand that you can go back maybe a year later or even a couple of months later to that same prompt and it may be different for you than it was in that moment that you first read it. I love that idea.
In my endorsement for the book that I gave you, I ended up marking a bunch of prompts, and I said that I could go back to those whenever I needed them in my relationship or just in my daily life. One of them was day 23, which I'm going to read it. It's, "Showing up to love and relationships fully can be scary when you have been hurt in the past. Remind yourself that you are interacting with different people than the ones who hurt you in the past and that you are a different person now. Move in courage." I just love that one. I think so many of us really tend to hold onto these grudges, and especially in non-monogamy, there's going to be so many ups and downs.
You talk in a much later prompt about how often if you've been with a person for a long period of time, you may have gone through really tumultuous things with them, and you show up as a more evolved person, for lack of a better word, in some of your newer relationships. That can be really hard for your existing relationship because that new relationship didn't have to go through the bullshit that you may have put that existing relationship through. Just I'm curious to hear your thoughts on all of that and how to move past old hurts when it's really difficult to.
Evita: Yes, I love this because my later work in relationships recently, especially coming from a divorce that was so painful because I didn't want it. I wanted us to stay together. While my husband was a good husband and I'd have nothing to lament about him as a partner but that relationship reached its shelf-life it came to the end and it was deeply, deeply painful for me. I was like, “What does love and relationships look like for me moving forward when I'm nursing this really, really intense wound?” I was noticing that it was showing up in a lot of fear in my newer connections and that just didn't sit well with me. I was like, “You know what? Life is short and I want to be bold and courageous in love, so how do I do that?”
Part of that is reminding myself that number one be, this person that I'm interacting that is not the same person that may have hurt me in the past. Which isn't always the case because sometimes you're in the same relationship and a person hurts you in the past and now you're dealing with it again, but there's still a new person in that they're not the person that they were back then. Each situation that you're entering in is new when you remember to stay present. Each situation is new and then you are also new. You're a different person.
I read a quote once in some meme somewhere that it said, “When I struggle to trust others who I struggle to trust is myself.” It was something that I really, really, really laid hold to. When I feel myself struggling to trust someone else that actually the person I'm struggling to trust is myself. I'm struggling to trust in my ability to discern when something isn't working for me. I distrust my ability to discern when a person doesn't work for me. I distrust in my ability to speak up, to ask for what I need, to take my agency in the relationship. I also struggle to trust in my ability to heal if it turns out in a way that causes me pain.
When I remember that, I'm going, “Okay, who is it that I'm struggling to trust right now? Who is it that I'm afraid of? Is it that I'm afraid of what is going on with this person? Am I afraid of my response to it?” My recent work and relationships now has been going, how do I-- I don't want to say completely let go of fear, because I think that people are looking for that. It's like, “Okay, well, I want to get rid of fear,” but fear is useful. Fear is what tells us don't put your hand on the stove because you're going to get hurt.
Emily: Exactly.
Evita: Fear is useful. It is a useful emotion and it is one to pay attention to, but I don't want it to be the governing body that governs how I move through my relationships. I don't want it to be in the driver's seat. It could be in the passenger seat, it could be in the backseat, but I don't want fear to be in the driver's seat of my relationships. I want to be the one that is driving my relationships. I don't want fear to be a driver. That was why that was important for me because it was personal.
I was personally doing that work myself to like go, where can I let go of fear? Where can I show up to my relationships boldly? In polyamory specifically, because it is so niche, I guess, it's getting more popular now, but there's many opportunities for fear in such a way that you don't really have as much in monogamy just because monogamy is normalized. It's like, okay, you see your relationship could end and those things are scary, but people get back on their feet, they get a new relationship but non-monogamy just opens up a lot more areas I feel like for fear to come in because it's so new and it's not anything that we see.
To me, in that space, there should be even more of a like a, “Hey, how do I not let fear be the driving force for how I operate in these relationships?” Then as far as the other reminder that you were talking about with older relationships, remembering that you're both having that same experience of each other, that was a big theme in my relationship with my spouse at the time, is the newer people were getting a more mature, like an older version of him that had more wisdom.
I didn't really stop and think, and also my partners were getting the same thing. It was just about, I was just looking at him going, “Well, you're giving this person all these things that I didn't get.” I didn't really look at myself and go, he was having that same experience with me of watching me be more mature in my relationships to other people. Ultimately, if you really stop and think about it, do you want to have a partner that's like running around doing funky stuff to people? Like, no, what, keep that stuff. That's another thing I had to think of too.
If they were doing things to people that they're some of the same stuff that they were doing to me when they were younger and didn't know any better, that wouldn't be a good thing either. Because I don't want my partners running around treating people poorly or making mistakes or whatever. I hope that they grow. I hope that they evolve. I hope that they bring a better version of themselves to the newer spaces that they're in. Remembering that you're human too, then your humanity has been on the stage. It's not just there. Then also ultimately, what do you want? Do you want to have a partner that's out here hurting people's feelings, or do you want to have a partner that's showing up in integrity to others?
Jase: Yes. That's awesome. I'm going to keep reading your book to you, so hope you're ready for that. This one I wanted to talk about here is, this is day 74 and I particularly resonate with this one. That's, "Having multiple partners is not the sole benefit of practicing non-monogamy. The more you grasp this concept, the more you'll enjoy the experience."
This has been basically the journey of my last three years especially because I had a relationship that ended right before the pandemic started and then wasn't really connecting with people. Had a couple dates that turned into friendships, but haven't really had any other partners since then, still. It's just been this time of really being like, “I'm not any less polyamorous or non-monogamous than I was before. Those are all still much part of my identity and my values and my partner Dedeker, has had other partners in that time and it's like, yes, this is definitely part of my identity, but also I'm loving the fact that I've gotten to explore my friendships and like, how do I prioritize these and how do I better get comfortable with myself?
I've actually found that to be like this is talking about that surprise benefit of wow this just opened me up to being more intentional about all the relationships in my life and not just having multiple romantic or sexual relationships.
Evita: Yes. My experience in non-monogamy, when we started with polyamory, we started with the triad that ended about two years in, and then I was dating and trying to relate to people. While if we went pound-for-pound dates-wise, I definitely had more dates than my partner, but if it was relationships, like people that actually wanted to have something, he fared a lot better. It was really challenging for me. I struggled. So I began to go, okay, I want to be able to enjoy this but this lack of being able to have partners, number one, made it that it was challenging to me to enjoy it because that's what I was focusing on. Two, it also made me, or it prompted me to make relationship choices that I probably shouldn't have made just for the sake of having.
Emily: Interesting.
Jase: I feel that. Yes.
Evita: Just for the sake of having, just saying, okay, well, I just want to have. I'm going to take this relationship option that it's clearly showing for me that it's not going to work, that there's definitely some discrepancies here about the things that I want in relationship, but it's something. When I began to shift my focus from how many partners I had or how many dates I went on, or how many people I had acquired to like what was polyamory doing in me? Was I becoming a better person? Like you said, was I being more intentional in all of my relationship spaces? Was I growing?
Was I growing in the challenges to show up well to my partners? It's one thing to show up well to your partners when your poly is popping, you got the dates going, your relationships are going well, and you're like, “Yes, that going, I got two-week vacation.” It's a lot easier to do that than when like your partner has this relationship that's going really well, or several relationship that's going really well and you don't have that. It's a lot, lot harder to show up and be supportive.
I found that in those moments is where I really, really honed in on what my polyamorous integrity was. When I shifted my focus from how many partners I had to what I could say about myself as a polyamorous person, how did I feel about myself as a polyamorous person? I actually enjoyed the experience a lot more because I was able to see more benefit to what was happening within myself and in my life as a result of polyamory that had nothing to do with how many partners I had or didn't have.
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Emily: I'm really curious because you went through the more traditional route of becoming polyamorous with a spouse and then opening up an existing relationship. Now as somebody who you said at the top of the show you're single and going into polyamory from there, how do you think that's going to change? Or do you think that it will change the way that you explore non-monogamy now?
Evita: It does. It has. It really has and I was not prepared for it. The way I described it is, I was a lot more willing to take risks in relationships because I had a staple relationship at home what I called an oatmeal relationship.
Evita: Here's why I called it oatmeal, it provided the nutrients and the nourishment that base relationship need. I was much more experimental in my dating life because I'm like, “Well, I got oatmeal at home and so if push comes to shove and I need cuddling or I need whatever I have this staple relationship to go to," and now that I don't have that I'm a lot more circumspect about the choices that I make in relationships now because I'm like you got one shot. If this thing ain't working, if this thing isn't giving you what you need, you ass out, because it's not like I have somebody to go back home to anymore.
It made me a lot lot more circumspect and a lot more discerning about what relationship activities and the people that I engage in because I'm not getting, that not really taking for granted that worst case scenario I got a spouse at holiday so if I need loving or whatever this person is there. Like now every choice that I make now I feel like in regards to relating to people has to be really, really conscious and intentional because if something doesn't go well or it doesn't end up giving me what I need, I'm going to go without until something else pops up. So I don't date as much as you would think I would date more.
Emily: Exactly. It's counterintuitive almost. It's the opposite of what you would think but that's really, really interesting.
Evita: Yes, I don't date as much as I used to. I'm a lot more circumspect about the people I choose to sleep with, the people I choose to engage, because like I said, I don't have that kind of staple relationship at home. When you have a staple relationship the way I described is like say you have that oatmeal relationship. I might eat that spicy meal that's going to give me heartburn and I know it's going to jack up my stomach because I'm like, well, I can go back home to my oatmeal and be soothed and satiated, but now I'm like, uh-uh, that's spicy dish is going to stay right on the table.
That was shocking for me. That was actually really surprising. I thought that I would just date more and be out there and actually know I'm a lot less inclined to just interact with whomever because of not having, like I said, that staple homecooked meal in my life.
Emily: In regards to breaking up this prompt from day 127 where you say, "Not all breakups come like loud booms, crashing symbols, or symphonies of chaos. Sometimes they're soft whispers of knowing and releasing." Wow, that was a lot and so true. We talked so much on the show about how relationships don't necessarily have to be really shitty in order for them to not be right for you and that it is okay to break up.
In terms of the divorce that you had and moving away from a relationship in the way that you did where you realize, hey, it's run its course. Do you think that's going to affect the way that you look at relationships in general and the trajectory of how they go and maybe leaving relationships in the future? If you do, do you think that that'll change your approach to it?
Evita: It did actually. I had a relationship briefly when I first moved over here. While we loved each other very much maybe about eight months or so into it, I was like, I think I'm going to redirect this relationship to friendship because I don't think that that's trying to have a romantic connection with one another at this time or maybe even at all is viable. One of the things that I will say that it taught me is to get out while you can still salvage something of the relationship that you enjoyed.
I feel like what happens is that before I used to be very team, no friends with my ex, if we finished is we done is what I used to tell people like burden anything but this person didn't fit neatly fit into that category. I didn't want to be done with that person. I just wanted to be done with what it was that we were doing because I was like this is not working for me. I find that sometimes people hold on too long to relationship and by the time they finally release so much damage has been done that there's just nothing in the relationship that was working that is salvageable.
It made me much more aware to pay attention to go when I need to call it, or when I need to shift directions, or when I need to adjust something that I'm doing that's not working so that I can still maintain people that I clearly have a connection with and there's clearly a chemistry there and we just might not be good doing this thing that we're actually doing. That relationship was one of those ones that was just kind of a silent knowing of like, "Vita, I know you really love this person and they really love you and y'all are trying, but I just don't think that this romantic relationship that y'all are trying to make work is going to work for you." I made the choice to shift us to friendship, and we've been friends now for the last couple of years and it's a much better space.
Emily: That's correct.
Evita: It has changed my ideas about how I want to exist in my relationships in such a way so that I'm giving myself the permission to go, "We don't have to be doing this thing that we're trying to do." While that is painful, if I let go what my ideas for what I want with this person, and just embrace the person it opens up so much of a space of creativity for what does work for us. That allows me to keep these people in my life that I care about but maybe not necessarily I'm able to accomplish the thing that we set out to accomplish.
Jase: Yes, I love that, and I think that's really good to share those kinds of stories with people, because I think that's so antithetical to the way that we're taught relationships should go or can go. I was just thinking about a relationship of mine from several years ago. I think this was back in maybe 2017, 2018 something like that. It was one where I started having that feeling of like I'm not feeling this. I do really like this person and I don't want this to get to this situation where I'm just having a bad time, and we're having to break up in a more painful way.
This was not easy to do but I made that decision of, okay, I'm just going to try to be real upfront and clear about this and just explain, I like you a lot, I think you're cool but also something's just not clicking with me for this, and so I want to change this type of relationship. I felt bad about that. I was such an asshole, I should have just found some way to like this person more or be more attracted to them or whatever it was.
Then just earlier this year I think they sent me a message just saying, "Hey, I was chatting with our mutual friend and just wanted to let you know I always look back on our relationship really positively and it was one of the most well-communicated and mature relationships and I just have nothing but positive feelings about it. I'm so happy that your friend's now with this mutual friend." It was just that like, "Oh, wow, I'd felt bad about this for years, but actually, for them it was this positive experience." I just want to share that because I know it's something that I would not have expected to happen and I feel like most of us would assume, oh, if you ever do that they're just going to hate you or not going to want to be friends with you or whatever and that's not always the case.
Evita: That's actually the kindest thing you can do. If you were to ask someone do you want to be with someone who dreads their relationship with you and who doesn't want to be with you? Everybody would say no. A minute a partner comes to them and says, "This isn't really working for me and I think I need to do something different," we get all up in arms when really that's the kindest thing to do, because ultimately what I want is to be in relationship with someone who is very present in what it is that we're doing. We're on the same page by this thing that I want to do with you. You also want to do this with me, cool.
On the kindest thing that we can do is win that shift for us, so when that changes for us that we be honest about that and we talked about that person. Even with my spouse, and I'm not faulting him for this in any way because we were married for 16 almost 17 years, we had three children, we had a deeply, deeply intertwined life. That's not something you easily walk away from.
I'm not judging him for taking the time that he took but there was a part of me that when he stated that he didn't want to be together anymore, he didn't have romantic feelings for me anymore, there was a part of me that internally screamed thank you. I was like he finally said it because I knew and I knew and I knew it but I kept feeling like, well, I'm just being insecure, he's telling me that he's happy he wants to be here, I just I need to just trust him or whatever. I knew, deep down I knew, I was like this dude he just does not want to be here.
I'm pretty sure that that happened for a lot longer. If I were to go back to him and ask him when did you really know that you had checked out of the romance piece of our relationship, it probably was a lot longer from when he actually declared it, because of that space that I don't want to hurt this person. I don't want to disappoint them. Some of it is okay maybe I can feed back and get it back, but once you're pretty clear that that's not what's happening, the kindest thing you can do with a person is just to let them know. I feel like a lot of times when people move through relationships and they trade a momentary discomfort from a much bigger mess down the line.
Emily: Absolutely.
Jase: That happens so often.
Emily: Gosh, yes. I wanted to end things off with some questions from our listeners. They were really excited that you were coming back on the show and they had a couple things that they wanted to ask. One of the questions is, how do you navigate the murkiness of having to talk about your own relationships in your book when your words could affect people you've been in relationships with? How in particular do you navigate this when you've got to be accountable for times when you may have hurt others where writing about this publicly might be tricky? What do you do when other people's experiences don't quite line up with what you've written about?
Evita: Wow, that's a really great question. The person I've talked about the most is my former spouse. That's who I had the most relationship experience with and at this point, he knows who I am. We had a very public relationship even when we were together that was actually one of the incongruencies that we had is because he's a very private person, and so I know that was a challenge for him. I feel like I've done a really good job of learning how to phrase what I'm saying so that I am talking about my experience but in such a way that it's not disparaging to the other person. I've never really had someone come back to me and read it and go. That's not how I remember it, or you told that wrong.
I tell people that two emotions that I don't experience a lot of is embarrassment and shame. For some strange reason, my emotional human index just does not have a lot of those emotions. One of the things that makes that a gift for me in my writing is I'm not afraid to put myself on blast.
Evita: I am not afraid.
Emily Which I think is so impressive, just also that you're able to be like, "Wait, that wasn't very good, that thing that I did, and I'm able to admit that and then put it out into the world so that other people can learn from that mistake." I find that to be really impressive that you're able to do that so well.
Evita: Right. I feel that, even if some people that I've interacted with have read some of the stuff, they see me also laying myself out, and it doesn't come off like I'm just pointing the finger at all these people that I'm with and all these terrible ways that they failed me and I was just a saint. They're like, no, I'm putting myself out there too, so I've never really had anyone come back to me and say, "I really didn't like that you did that."
Some things I will check in with current partners and be like, "Hey, I'd like to talk about this thing that we went through, I'm letting you know that this situation that we had, I'm going to bring up." If it's something too sensitive or something that-- they absolutely have the right to say, "I don't want you to create content from that," and I'm like, "Okay, cool. No problem." I tend to want to create content from the more positive things that I can say about my partner. I choose those more often than I choose the negative stuff. It really is just, like I said, being honest.
I also am okay with someone coming back and going, "Well, I remember that differently." I'm like, "Well, that's the thing with relationships. Sometimes, it's about perspective." I would say that there's three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth. The way you remember something going down may not be the way I remember something going down. I think I do a really good job of fairly telling the story so that people that I interact with don't feel as if I'm just, like I said, disparaging them in my work.
Emily: We got another interesting question from one of our listeners, and they asked, how is monogamy and the colonization of spirituality interconnected?
Evita: I think that the colonization of spirituality demonized a lot of our indigenous practices, non-monogamy being one of them. It created this system of morality, and monogamy became the system of morality of the day. Anything that was reminiscent of indigenous practice was deemed as demonic, was deemed as not of God, and was deemed as something that we needed to get rid of, and so our indigenous cultures they were non-monogamous. We lived in communal environments, and monogamy was not the order of the day in our indigenous practices. When colonization came in, we also got morality, and the morality was to move away from anything that was reminiscent of our indigenous practices and non-monogamy being one of those things.
I think that's the colonization of spirituality giving us this kind of morality of monogamy, this morality of heterosexuality, this morality of Cisnormativity, all of that stuff is from colonization. Because our indigenous cultures were multifaceted and had multiple ways of existence and multiple ways of identifying, and that was deemed as savage, that was deemed as, like I said, demonic and not of God, and those things were taken away from us. We were literally told that we couldn't practice those things. We had to move away from those things.
That's why, to me, monogamy or the concept of monogamy, I'll say as its practice today, because I think so much of what we hear in polyamory is monogamy is wrong. It's rooted in capitalism. Yes, that is true, but I think we have to separate the system of monogamy as it functions in our society today through to the identity of monogamy, which is very personal because the goal is not to move ourselves to a space to where the entirety of society is now non-monogamous and there's no space for monogamy. Even if we did a total cultural reset and made it so that non-monogamy was the order of the day, there would still be humans that were not interested in it because humans are not a monolith. We're not a monolith of desires.
To me, it's important that we differentiate the system of monogamy as it functions today, as opposed to the identity of monogamy. People that just really decide that I just am only interested in having a relationship, sexual or romantic, with one person. I feel like the system that was imposed upon us with monogamy was one that was connected to colonization and white supremacy and, like I said, heteronormativity, Cisnormativity, capitalism, all of these things, patriarchy, but it's a system.
That part, yes, we need to critically examine, but the identity, the monogamous identity, is one that any human, can feel is right for them. I think that it's important that we name that so that monogamous people aren't feeling like, "Hey, I really am genuinely monogamous, and that's what I want to do." My response to that is, "Okay," but go into that consciously. How much of that is really who you are, and how much of that is this programming that we've all been born into in this monogamous society?
I always encourage monogamous people like, okay, you're monogamous. That's great. Wonderful, but you still need to unpack that because I guarantee you there's a bunch of stuff in there that even if you can identify that you're monogamous is still not reflective of how you really think and feel about relationship.
Emily: Absolutely.
Jase: I think that's so interesting, too, to think about it from the programming point of view, but also, even if you were able to move beyond that, there's still just the reality of how much the system favors this one way of being. For example, I had a partner who, when she was ending our relationship, and this was quite a while back, it was very, matter of fact, very amicable and everything, but her reasoning was not because she felt like she was monogamous, but just because she wanted to have kids and is like, it's going to be easier to do and I'm going to have an easier time finding someone to do that with if I decide to do that in a monogamous way.
I guess I admire that she was able to approach that from that very eyes open, kind of, yes, I'm making this decision because of these reasons. Also, it really sucks that we're in a society where she had to make that decision for those reasons and not actually because it was something that spoke to her or was true to her.
Evita: I've had that conversation with myself from the desire to get married again. I do eventually want to get married again. I hope that that happens for me.
Emily: I did wonder.
Evita: Yes, sometimes I can feel like, am I even going to find that in the non-monogamous community because so many people that are non-monogamous are very anti-marriage. They're anti-normative ways of relating, and that's fine. There's no problem with that. It does sometimes result in me feeling like, "Am I really going to find someone that desires marriage and that wants to be married? Will it come down to a choice of choosing to return to monogamy so that I can have this experience of having a spouse again or continuing to remain non-monogamous and just hope that I come across someone who wants to pair in that more normative framework?"
Obviously, I'm going to choose option two because there's just no way that I would go back to monogamous. It's not interesting to me, but I can't say that I haven't thought about it. I actually dated someone last year who was monogamous. It was my first time dating a monogamous person since being non-monogamous, but we just fell for each other randomly out of the blue. It was a struggle. I had moments, so I was like, "Vita, you really could just go back to monogamy. This dude wants to marry you, and you could have this experience again, but I made a choice to not do that.
Emily: I have heard from friends who struggle with similar questions of, well, I really like this person. Maybe it would just be easier. It is, I think, always that question of should I go the easier route. Because it is society just constantly telling us this is the way that we should be and this is the thing that we should do, and is that ultimately just going to be easier for our life versus what is really the true and best thing for me as an individual
Evita: I see as you trade one ease for a different one so that it's easier in some ways. Life will be easier for you, you'll have a easier time of it because of the setup of our society. To me, the hard part is condensing myself in a way that isn't reflective of who I actually am. Not just to me, that part is actually too uncomfortable. The other stuff, the external stuff, I can deal with. I can figure that out, but the internal struggle of not being who I know I want to be and having to truncate myself to fit in this box that actually is a harder struggle for me. That, to me, is just you trade one ease for another. You trade one difficulty or one hardship for another. That's just not a hardship that I want personally. I would just rather be myself personally.
Jase: That is such a great thing to bring up, though, that it's about really weighing what is right for me. It's not like, oh, if I decide to do the thing that's easy or that's more supported, it's not like, I've failed and I'm going to be doomed to unhappiness. That might not be true. That might actually be the lesser of the two challenges or the better of the two easy ways to go about it. Just acknowledge that there's a choice to be made there. There's things to weigh up on both sides of it.
Evita: I think we tend to look at things and these choices that we make as they're set in stone. That's another thing that I try to remind myself of is the choice that I make today it may set some things in motion that are challenging to redirect as the ball gets rolling, but no choice to set in stone. I can change my mind. I can make a different decision. I feel like remembering that is really, really, really important because so many people, they're like, "If I make this choice, I'm locked into this thing and now if it's a mistake, there's no redirection." I'm like, "No, as long as you wake up, you have an option to choose different."
Remembering that as we're moving through our relationship spaces. How you feel today may not be how you feel two days from now, or three days from now, or two weeks from now, or two years from now. When you change your mind or when you decide something doesn't work for you, you can make a different choice.
Jase: Speaking of that, we actually have one last question from our listeners for you. I'm just going to read this whole question. I feel like you've already hinted at the answer a little bit here but I'd love to hear it. This is, "She has had such a ride in her journey, and I've followed her from the start. My question would be, did she see her polyam journey in the start going in the direction it is today? What's been the biggest surprise as she continues down this journey? Has she ever wished she wasn't polyamorous and could close Pandora's box and undo it all?"
Evita: Ooh, this is really good. No, I did not see myself where I am today. I thought my husband and I, I thought we were one of the ones that we were going to make it. I really, really did. I did not see me being at the place where now I'm divorced, I'm single at 40. I did not see that coming. I even asked him, knowing that this was the outcome, would he go back and change so that we didn't do this? I also think too, that that makes it feel as if polyamory was the reason that we broke up and that if we did become polyamorous, we might still be together. I always tell people that I don't know if there's some reality where we didn't become polyamorous and we broke up five years sooner. I don't know that.
What I will say is, no, I did not see myself here. Would I do it all again though? Yes, I would. Not because I wanted my marriage to end. That's still saddening to me but, man, the person that I've become as a result of making this choice, I would not trade that human being for anybody, honestly. I'm not one of those people that says polyamory is the only way for you to evolve. I feel like you can absolutely stay non-monogamous and still move through your traumas and healing and all of those things. The polyamorous community doesn't have the lockdown on healing and growth and evolvement. I know we like to think so. Let me let y'all know right now we don't.
Evita: We don't. I'll say we absolutely don't. For me, this was the journey that brought me to the person that I am today who's much more self-aware, who is much more self-contained, who's much more in possession of myself as a human being and that is invaluable. Even if I never got another polyamorous partner or had another polyamorous relationship, I still would not trade that at all.
I also love and another thing that I would not trade, and this, I'm actually getting emotional as I'm talking about it. I can feel welling up in my chest, it's allowed me to be such a better human to the people that I love. That to me is so much more important. I'm not just talking about my partners. I'm talking about my friends. I'm talking about my kids. I'm talking about people I meet on the street. It really has helped me to show up in a way to the people in my life that I care about, that I'm much, much, much more proud of and much more happy with than I was before.
I did this because it helped me to learn how to unpack entitlement, how to unpack control, and really embrace, and celebrate, and support the freeness of the people in my lives. The autonomy of the people in my lives, the personhood of the people in my lives. I would not trade that either for anything. So no, yes, I would absolutely do this again.
Emily: Well, thank you again so much for this amazing talk you provided us with such an excellent episode again. We definitely have to do this at least in another three years, if not sooner, and hopefully with Dedeker as well. Before we go, where can people find more of you, your work, and of course your new book?
Evita: My book is available Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Bookshop.org. Check your local bookstore and if they don't have it, tell them to get it. Hook a sister up. That's where the book can be found. I can be found on Instagram @lavitaloca34. Also on Facebook at Lavitaloca Sawyers. That's pretty much where I am all the time, so I'm pretty easily accessible. I want to thank everyone for the support and for following, for listening, for sharing your stories, and sharing your highs and lows and your vulnerability with me. That really is what makes it all worthwhile. Then I thank you all for having me on the show again because I'm telling you, I love talking to y'all. I really do. I was very hyped with this.
Jase: The feeling is mutual.