289 - De-Coupling
Breaking up…the intentional way
When breaking up with a partner, intentionality is the way to go. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the world right now with the COVID 19 pandemic, and a lot of people’s lives are changing, from moving in with each other prematurely to being forced to stay together because of isolation or quarantine.
“De-Couple:
to separate, disengage, or dissociate (something) from something else.”
Before actually breaking up, there are some things to consider to make a good, informed decision:
Via Poly.land: Think about discussing breakups at the beginning of your relationship and hashing out whether or not there’s a specific way you want a breakup to go. That way, if the time comes, you know what to do.
Dating multiple people can give you clues about how your partner acts during a breakup.
Displacement is common during times when we have little control. Displacing emotions like anxiety etc. onto something we have better control over, which often is our relationship or partner.
Make sure you know whether your frustration is with your partner or with the current state of the world.
If there are actual incompatibilities that you’re having to deal with that are exacerbated by spending a lot more time together, then breaking up might be the answer:
Write out your thoughts regarding dissatisfaction in the relationship and then have a gentle discussion about them with your partner when you decide to break up.
Remember that honesty is good, but brutality is not. Be as kind as you can when breaking up.
Let your partner know what they meant to you and your appreciation for the relationship.
Don’t drag out the breakup; do it cleanly and directly.
Don’t be their support systems after the breakup. Try to talk to friends and family instead of each other for support.
What if you continue to act like a couple?
If you’re being forced to isolate together or spend time together you might find yourselves continuing to act like a couple despite breaking up. Make sure you lay down some ground rules and:
Stop calling each other pet names.
Refrain from intimate physical contact like kissing, hand-holding, etc.
Don’t attend events together or as each other’s plus 1.
If you were in a monogamous relationship, now is not the time to get jealous about the people they’re interested in.
Figure out how to separate physically if you still live together. Spend some time physically apart if possible, even if it’s in the same house.
If you are still carrying on like a couple, ask yourselves if you’re really broken up.
It’s not all about you
Breakups can be tough on your friends/other partners and family too:
Try not to bring negative energy into your other relationships.
Your partner is also losing a metamour, or your friend is in an awkward position because they are also close to your ex. Boundaries need to be set regarding this new development.
Don’t make it the only thing you talk about for weeks on end.
Allow them to console you, but also make sure you’re there for them and invest in your time with them.
Remember that grieving is different for everyone, so don’t be worried if it’s easier to shift gears when you’re with your other partners and fully engage with them.
Polyamorous breakups aren’t necessarily easier, but it is important to have a support system for any grieving process.
Can you be friends with your ex?
Many people say remaining friends with an ex is inappropriate or downright impossible, but polyamorous people are actually shown to remain friends with exes more than monogamous people. Remember:
Even if you both want to stay friendly, make sure you give it time so you can heal before engaging emotionally again.
Give each other time and space when you need it and respect each other’s boundaries.
Labels can be difficult. “Ex” has a more negative connotation than “someone who I once dated and we’re now great friends.”
Remember your support system is vital, and sometimes it’s necessary to seek out more than just friends and family. Seeking therapy after a breakup is normal and offers an objective perspective that you might otherwise be missing.
Transcript
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Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking about decoupling with intention. It has been quite a while since we've had an exclusively breakup focused episode. Right now, as the world continues to be ever-changing and unpredictable, so are our relationships. Today, we're going to discuss intentionally breaking up, separating, deescalating, whatever you want to call it. We're going to talk about what steps might need to be taken to transition your life out of that relationship in a healthy way, how the transition may affect your other relationships, if you have those, and the pros and cons, and maybe some ways to evaluate the merits of trying to stay friends or not after a breakup.
Emily: I feel like we're coming full circle today a little bit. Back in March, April, we had an episode talking about how to intentionally live with a partner if you're thrust into a partnered situation. Now that things are changing, not necessarily in every part of the world are things getting better with the Coronavirus, but in some parts they are, and perhaps people are starting to leave the relationships that they got into during this time. We wanted to talk about that just because we've seen it happen a little bit here and there on our Facebook group, and heard people talking about de-escalating their relationships or leaving relationships. I'm glad that we're getting to discuss intentionally breaking up today, because it's nice a nice idea to intentionally do so.
Dedeker: Yes. Well, we've definitely seen as a result of lockdown in countries that came out of lockdown before the United States did, that there was definitely a divorce rate spike immediately afterwards. There's a lot of factors contributing to that, not the least of which is just the stress of a global pandemic, the stress of being stuck in a house with somebody, maybe where the living situation is not ideal, and add to that if the relationship was already maybe not super great, then that's another contributing factor to this as well.
I have been noticing on the Facebook group as well, I feel like I haven't seen more people asking also about deescalations or changing the status of a relationship. Maybe it's not a full-on decoupling but just renegotiating what this relationship is between the two of us, what role it's going to play, how we're going to live in each other's lives, things like that. It definitely seems like a topic that's on people's minds right now, and hard to do with some intentionality sometimes.
Emily: Definitely, yes. I still think probably the best decoupling experience that I have ever had was with you, Jase. Even though that's not to say that it wasn't challenged, and because it definitely was, but I think we tried to do it with intention, and we tried to do it with a love and care for one another, and then it's evolved into this great friendship with the two of you. That means the world to me. I think that that doesn't happen every day. Hopefully, we're good at talking about this because we've done it well.
Jase: Yes. I will say that that one, I would agree with you, as far as longer-term relationships, because we've been together for what, six or seven years? Six years at the time. You remember how long? You're better with dates than I am.
Emily: Yes. No, like four and a half. You've been with Dedeker, over seven years. You were with me for almost five years. We've now been friends for longer than we were in a relationship together.
Dedeker: That's nice to think about.
Jase: Yes. What I was going to say, though, is I feel like I've had some really good decouplings for things that were shorter term, like less than a year, where it's been like, "Yes, okay. This isn't working out." We were able to be clear and be honest with each other, which I would say, overall, were a lot less painful and hard than what you and I did. What I think what you and I did is something that's hard to do when you have so much more of a history, and that there's so much more intertwining of lives and things like that. I think is difficult to do, but I agree, was very worth it, and has led to something great.
Emily: I'm assuming your other relationships aren't as-- Your friendships with other people that you've dated is probably not quite as close as you are with me, either.
Dedeker: Unless they have secret life podcasts, and is running secret businesses.
Emily: I know. I don’t want to assume there.
Jase: Right, yes. I've had other decouplings where we're still friendly or cordial but not where we've remained as close.
Dedeker: I don't know if I have a lot of experience under my belt with this, honestly. Same thing with Jase. I have definitely some short term relationships where I can think of like, "Okay, that breakup. That unentangling, disentangling process went relatively well with a relative minimum of damage and a lot of respect, even though it was hard or was very sad." I can point to that. I don't think I have an experience like the two of you have of a big long term, very serious relationship, decoupling or de-escalating in a way that felt good and where I still had a really intimate friendship with the person.
I've had some serious relationships and really just needing to take time away, a long time away, and then I could become friends with the person, but I don't think I've really been through this very conscious uncoupling process. Speaking of conscious uncoupling, I think most people will maybe know that term from the book that is called Conscious Uncoupling. It was written by Katherine Woodward Thomas in 2009. It became super famous when Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin broke up, and for some reason, they told the world like, "We're consciously uncoupling." In a couple of days, I bought the book and had a great time. Consciously uncouple from their partners. Was that the situation around it?
Emily: Yes. I don't know. Do they still go on family trips together?
Dedeker: Were they co-parenting also?
Emily: Yes. Co-parenting, they're very intentional about that. I think it was this new way of disentangling your life that talks about, and you're thinking about, internally, what's going on, where your grievances lie, and the relationship, what you have to do with it in a way that's maybe a little bit different than a lot of breakups are, where it's very you versus them. Instead, it's a little bit more inward, which is cool. I appreciate that.
Dedeker: I have not read the book yet. It's been on my list for a while. Katherine Woodward Thomas, she also offers training for people who are in therapeutic or counseling backgrounds. I'm definitely interested in looking into that because I have thought like, "This seems like something that people want help with, not just when they're tackling themselves. That is something that I would like to offer in the future as a service, once I get a little more trained in this, of being able to be someone who helps facilitate having this more intentional breakup process. I never thought that I would say that I want to be there when people break up, but here I am.
Emily: That's very impressive.
Dedeker: Anyway, so for the purposes of this episode, we're going to be using both uncoupling and decoupling, I guess, almost basically to mean one and the same, of this intentional breaking up process.
Emily: Yes. Okay. We talked about the big one between me and Jase. Do we have any stories of uncoupling that were not good between partners?
Dedeker: Oh, yes, plenty. How long you got, you want to record this podcast episode for? You want to see a marathon, five-hour episode? You want to hear all the ins and outs?
Emily: Oh, boy. Not all of them, but the first one that comes to your mind.
Dedeker: Okay. Can I actually start with a good story?
Emily: Oh, sure, please.
Dedeker: Because I feel like I got more bad stories than good ones, honestly, more times that I decoupled poorly than when it happened really well. When I think about the times when someone has broken up with me or I have disentangled my life from someone's in a way that, like I was saying, felt really sad, but also didn't feel like it caused extra damage, I think the through-line that I can see, it's just a lot of honesty from both sides.
Because I think that what could happen is, and maybe long term relationships are more prone to this, but resentments or things that you're unhappy with, or things that you wish were different in the relationship that sometimes, out of fear or out of whatever, various reasons, we can choose to not express those things to a partner, and just hang on to them and stew on them or hope that they change on their own or whatever until someday it gets just too unbearable, and then it's a big explosion and can feel like a big betrayal. The other person gets really surprised. When I think about the more healthy processes that I've been through, that's been the through line, is that someone was just really honest with me of like, hey, this particular thing isn't working for me, or like, hey, the direction we're heading, and it's just not working for me.
Someone who was just very clear of like, maybe this is a boundary or just I can't do this. I don't think that this is going to work as opposed to coming and be like, hey, I can't do this, you've got to change, or choosing to not say anything. Again, it's like, it sucks, but I don't know, receiving that honesty and being able to give that honest you just felt very respectful. There's something about respect and dignity in the breakup process that often we don't get or give to each other that can make it just so much worse.
Emily: Totally. I agree.
Dedeker: That's my TED Talk. Your turn.
Emily: I've definitely had not great breakups, especially in college. I agree that they tend to perhaps be those ones that don't include the dignity and respect that perhaps the relationship deserves or where things are festering for a long time, and after a while, it just all comes to a head and then that's it. There have also been times where I've been super blindsided also in college, unless you like me, the one in college I don't know how, like any relationship in college is good. I don’t know.
Dedeker: It depends on the person.
Emily: It does, yes. I think that, absolutely, it's a skill to a degree, and you can get better at it over time.
Jase: What's coming up for me in this question about bad breakups is, sure, there have been bad ones where one person or the other is me and or feels blindsided or something. What comes to mind for me is specifically a breakup that I had several years ago now, but that was a very serious relationship, we were engaged, and we ended up breaking up. It was one that it was respectful. There was a lot of love there that still happened through it. Yet my experience of it was pretty bad because I just think that I, maturity wise or maybe self-awareness wise or something wasn't quite there yet to be able to--
Emily: Use like a personally?
Jase: Yes, that for me, it's-- and I don't know how much of it was conditioning that I should feel mad about this. I don't know how much was that. I don't know how much was that it was an injury to my pride, and therefore I had to be upset with her about it, but it definitely was this thing of the breakup itself was very reasonable. We stayed in touch. We're civil to each other, all of that, but I just couldn't get myself to not be upset about it fast enough.
A couple of years later, and it wasn't at all, but by then our relationship had drifted apart to the point where we don't even really stay in touch. We're still Facebook friends, and I'll see her stuff sometimes. We're not as in touch as I think we could have been if I'd been able to understand that a little better and let a little bit of my pride out of the way, and maybe just had a little more maturity at the time.
Dedeker: We're really not given any models for how a relationship ending could turn out well, or with dignity or respect or minimal damage. Really I can't think of an example in our media. I can think of an example now in my adult life of other adult friends, but when I was growing up, I can't think of an example of seeing adults do that. We really don't--
Jase: What about Chris Martin and Gwyneth Paltrow? We just talked about that.
Emily: Yes, maybe that. Some marriages breaking up are like I think of Demi Moore and, what's his face?
Jase: Ashton Kutcher.
Emily: No, the other one. Because Ashton Kutcher is now with Mila Kunis.
Dedeker: The other one. The other Ashton Kutcher.
Emily: Bruce Willis.
Jase: Oh, right.
Emily: They still go on family trips together even though they're not romantically involved.
Jase: That's something I actually have for a long time felt like a lot of those celebrity relationships that we're aware of, actually a lot more of those and very civil even we're aware of, because no matter how civil it is, and all their statements and all the evidence you see, the tabloids still are going to make it seem like a disaster. We see those when we're in the checkout at the grocery store. You're constantly being exposed to this like, oh, I guess it is actually terrible. I bet you a lot more of those than we realize are amicable and respectful.
Emily: Yes, maybe.
Dedeker: According to the news, Demi Moore and Bruce Willis have also chosen to lockdown together, actually.
Emily: Wow.
Dedeker: Yes. Even though clearly still exes, but still being co-parents.
Jase: I love it.
Dedeker: It is interesting.
Emily: It's awesome.
Jase: Dedeker, you're totally wrong. There's tons of great examples.
Dedeker: Well, I’m sorry. I did not grow up with Bruce Willis or Gwyneth Paltrow as my best friends.
Jase: Certainly. Our friend group’s probably not as many good examples. As we get into this, we're going to talk about some statistics about breakups and exes. Just real quick go through this. Number one is that, 2017 CDC data says that around 40% of marriages end in divorce. Those numbers get tossed around between 40 and 50. Basically, it is very high, it's incredibly likely that that's going to happen. It's something worth being aware of and not treating, like some forbidden thing we can't talk about.
Emily: I saw in various articles that the average monogamous person has five major relationships before they get married. It's just something to think about that maybe getting good at breaking up is probably a good thing to start doing. Number two, just because you're going to probably be breaking up with some people in your life, most likely, unless you meet the love of your life in high school and that's it and you never break up, you're probably going to need to get good at it.
Dedeker: Experts in interviews talked about the fact that sometimes when you're polyamorous, it's just like a numbers game. You're going to have more breakups because you're dating more people.
Jase: Right, absolutely.
Dedeker: That's just going to happen.
Emily: Absolutely. 2013, there was a study in a couple families psychology that said the most commonly reported major contributors to divorce or lack of commitment, infidelity and conflict or arguing, and then the most common and final straw reasons were also infidelity, domestic violence, and substance abuse.
Dedeker: Right. It's getting these two different levels of like, that sounds like the most common over time situation. Well, these could be over time, I suppose. It's interesting that they distinguish with the "final straw reasons" for people leaving.
Jase: It's interesting. I also feel like that's very different from other statistics I've seen that talk more about it being probably also conflict and arguing, being part of it, but that money is the one that always comes up as a major concept.
Dedeker: topic.
Jase: Yes. I guess it's something that causes the distress that eventually draws them to infidelity or arguing.
Dedeker: Potentially. Your Tango also conducted a poll of 1,000 people about breakups, and they found that people still tend to care a lot about the person that they have left, which really shouldn't be that surprising. I do think that in a lot of breakups, the love or affection or connection of care is often not the problem.
Jase: I also think it's interesting to clarify this, that care a lot about doesn't necessarily mean, "I love this person, they're so great, but I think about them a lot."
Emily: I think about them, yes.
Jase: I am careful of them. I am care. Do you know what I mean? I care about what's happening. I think that's a distinction way of making that this isn't clear which type of caring it is.
Dedeker: They found the majority of people remain emotionally attached to their exes, but are not necessarily friends with them still, and they charming is by asking things like, do you still think about your exes? Do you still look them up on Facebook? Or do you check in with them, or check in on them on other forms of social media?
Emily: This was very interesting. A third of people have had sex with an ex, and 20% of people have done it more than once.
Jase: Heck, yes.
Emily: I know I'm one. We're going to get into that a little bit more.
Dedeker: It’s not the response I was expecting.
Emily: A study in the journal of archives of sexual behavior surveyed 125 undergraduates, and they found that two thirds of the participants have been in a friends-with-benefits type relationship, and that 36% were currently in one. That's a lot of people.
Jase: Yes, it's a common thing. We talked about that way back on another episode about friends with benefits.
Emily: Yes, we talked about it on our Google talks, I think.
Jase: Oh, okay. Maybe.
Emily: That exact statistic. Then a University of Kansas study found that 60% of people remain friends with their exes. That's interesting.
Jase: That sounds very high.
Emily: High. I know.
Jase: If it's self-reporting, though, I suppose, yes, we're still friends, but maybe only-
Emily: Right, it's like, what does friends mean.
Jase: -talk once every few years. I have some friends that I would call friends that would do that too.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: Also out of the University of Kansas, a grad student, Rebecca Griffith, found that the reasoning behind staying friends with an ex include things like security, not wanting to lose the ex’s emotional support, or practical reasons like having to worry about finances, manage finances together, or dealing with co-parenting or having a shared friend group. It includes just wanting to remain civil and kind, and hopefully soften the blow of the breakup. It also includes some people still having romantic feelings for the ex, or keeping them kind of in your sphere in case something better doesn't come along, which sounds kind of nefarious, but hey, we're human beings and we do that kind of stuff sometimes.
Emily: Yes, for sure. We're going to discuss a couple of things to think about before you actually commit to breaking up with someone, and then talk about how to break up with someone well, and then some stuff that might happen while you're in the midst of a breakup, and finally transitions that can happen once you are finally broken up. Lots to discuss here. Before you break up with someone, or if you feel like, hey, this is possibly coming, I feel like my partner and I are not really jiving here, we're not doing as well as we possibly can be, there are a couple of things to think about.
So on Poly.Land, which is Page Turner’s site, it's really great. I highly recommend checking it out. There are so, so many amazing articles on there. She had an article discussing breakups with your partner, and speaking about how you want to be broken up with, at the beginning of a relationship. This is really interesting to me because it tends to set the scene like, okay, we think that maybe this is going to happen at some point. It is a nice idea. Some people do want to be broken up with over texts, and they want to be able to have a mourning, grieving process by themselves, and other people really want to be broken up with in person and have it discussed, have it all laid out. Getting to say, hey, this is how I prefer to be broken up with, if the suburb does arise, that's a really interesting idea.
Dedeker: Yes, I recently listened to a TED Talk by a divorce lawyer that was specifically about how we could be possibly benefited by thinking about creating our marriages or creating our relationships through the lens of how it is that they're going to end. Of course she was a divorce lawyer, that was more about things like, how are we going to think about particular financial resources or tangible properties as we're signing a mortgage agreement or something like that, as well as thinking about when I choose to sacrifice on my dreams for a couple of years so that you can pursue your dreams, is that, am I doing this because I'm expecting that there's going to be that exchange in a couple of years or things like that? How's it going to feel when I'm ending the relationship, if I'm ending the relationship? There is definitely, I think some value to thinking about your relationships through the lens of how they might end. It just seems like a hard thing to put into practice, because when do you have that conversation with somebody?
Emily: Yes. I mean, she's essentially saying really, really towards the beginning of a relationship, but again, it is that intentionality, which seems like something that we all should be doing a lot right now in any capacity with any type of relationship.
Dedeker: I don't know, it's occurring to me that it seems like maybe a good transition into getting that information or sharing that information is for the two of you in your relationship to have a conversation, kind of like what we're having, of the times that we were broken up with, whether it was really shitty, or the times where it actually felt less shitty. Sometimes that can be a way of easing into that conversation, I imagine, of it being about the past instead of it being about, let's make our breakup plan.
Emily: Absolutely.
Dedeker: Maybe eventually you'll get there, but, yes, really interesting.
Jase: Paige also talks about how, if you are a non-monogamous, that dating multiple people can give you the opportunity to see how your partner handles breakups with other people, and vice versa. Right? I know that for me being polyamorous has been, I think I've learned so much more during that time than in the equivalent amount of time before that being monogamous, because it's given me the ability to not only observe more of my own startings and endings of relationships, but also to see my partners go through those, and when someone you're close to is going through a breakup or getting into a relationship, you're able to see more of the details of that than you would with someone who's just more of a casual friend or something like that. I definitely found that that's another good way. I agree with what Paige is saying here, that that could give you some clues to see how they handle breakups, what they react well to and what they don't.
Dedeker: Yes. Something else to think about before pulling the rip cord or before taking actions toward uncoupling or breaking up with someone in some way, is to bear in mind just the context that we're all in right now, that our brains try to find control even in situations where we don't have a lot of control, like a pandemic. Our brains have this defense mechanism known as displacement that helps us try to gain a better sense of control over the world. As in we can displays or project emotions that we have naturally arising from the state of the world, like frustration or anxiety or annoyance or a loss of control or safety, and we can project those onto what's in front of us, which can be our relationship or our partner or our house or our kids or things like that. I definitely know what I noticed about myself very early on in lockdown was, I don't know, it just definitely this phenomenon of like the world feeling like it's shrinking. When the world feels like it's shrinking suddenly the problems, what were small problems feel a lot bigger. It's almost kind of like this big fish, small pond kind of situation that when you make the pond something a lot smaller, the tiny fish looks a lot bigger comparatively. I know for myself, it was definitely a lot of projecting onto my partner, the issues that I often had. Never to the point of like, "Oh, I need to leave this relationship." That's definitely something that I was really subject to as well. I think this is just to let you know, it's okay to take a pause and take a minute to kind of check yourself, check if any irritability or frustration or feeling out of control is occurring really because of your partner or the relationship, or if it's related to bigger things as well.
Jase: Yes.
Dedeker: Again, and I mean, if sometimes you just have that gut feeling and you know that it's time to get out, it's not to cast any doubt on that, but just, it's okay to take your time to sort through those things for yourself.
Jase: Right. That's the other side, is that potentially being forced to be in closer quarters with someone, or being forced to be long distance with someone, maybe this is highlighting some incompatibility issues that the two of you have had, but haven't been able to see so clearly yet. In those cases, yes, this could be a good time to see, okay, I'm glad I learned in this now and we can break up. Psychology today suggested writing out your thoughts regarding the dissatisfaction, and then trying to start having gentle conversations with your partner about them during the breakup, as part of the breakup, writing it down so that it's clearer in your head, so you're not sort of put on the spot and have that panic of like, "Oh, I can't answer your questions. I don't know how."
Emily: I think that's a really great place to start. I've never done that in a breakup before, but Yes, I do find so often really. I think that's such a good idea just because--
Jase: Even just for serious talks, not even just breakups. I have to write it down or I'm going to have the conversation, think it's done, and then the next day I'll be like, "Oh shit, there was one other thing, and now I have to do that again."
Emily: It kind of, not necessarily, but it can take the intense emotionality out of it that sometimes happens in the moment. Then all of a sudden you're saying the wrong thing. Instead, it can be like, "Here, I wrote this out. I really like to compose my thoughts well", and then you're able to say it hopefully more compassionately.
Another thing that we talked about earlier is that honesty is a very good thing to have when breaking up. Brutality, I would say is not. Don't be an asshole here. Be as kind as you can while breaking up, and let your partner really know what the relationship did mean to you, and your appreciation for it, while also being clear that however this is where I do feel like I need to step away from this.
Another thing that I found, was to not drag out the breakup. I know that a lot of people may try to do it in chunks or like, "Hey, I need to have a talk with you", and maybe elude to that being a possibility, but not actually do it for another week or something along those lines. From what I've seen, clean breaks are the best, like rip the bandaid off, as opposed to stringing your partner along.
Jase: Yes. I would say also, just along with that, is the whole like, "We need to talk, let's do it in a week", is rough.
Emily: That's a lot of anxiety. No, thank you.
Jase: I've been there and it sucks. I did want to say, in case we hadn't mentioned it before, just that with all of this, this is assuming that the two of you are fairly respectful of each other, that this is a safe relationship, and that this is one that you do want to do your best to have this more conscious, intentional uncoupling. If this is something where you just got to cut and run, just cut and run, ignore all of what we just said and just get out of there, if it's that point. Where it's just awful and you just need to leave, do that. This is sort of assuming that this is a relationship that you think you can have this type of breakup.
Dedeker: I think in the interest of keeping things clean, of maintaining as much respect and dignity as you possibly can, it's important to also not jump into being your ex partner's sole support system for the breakup itself or vice versa. Don't make them your sole support system for going through this breakup. I know it's so easy for us to fall into it because you have the history and you know each other. Sometimes it can feel like, well, they're the only person who actually knows what I'm going through. Let's have 1,600 closure conversations, like we talked about in our episode a couple of weeks ago. Reach out to friends, to family, to professional, someone that you trust instead of number one choices we turn toward each other to work through the pain of breaking up.
These are only just a couple of things to get you started. There's a lot of resources out there as well for talking about ways to keep this uncoupling or deescalating process very clean and clear and intentional. We're going to be rolling on talking about some things to consider that might happen while you're in the midst of this decoupling process, as well as the transitions that may happen once you're finally broken up. First, we're going to take a moment to talk about this week sponsors.
All right, in this uncoupling decoupling deescalating process, there's some things that can happen that are important to take into consideration. I think especially if you're on the train of trying to deescalate a relationship instead of just a harsh break or decoupling, there can be this weird transitory phase where we're trying to figure out like, what are we to each other?
You could find yourself still continuing to act like a couple for a while. I've noticed that this has come up with some clients of where it's like, "Yes, we're on a pause, but nothing's really changed. We still text each other goodnight and call each other pet names and still cuddle. I don't really know what's going on." Especially if right now you are co-habiting after ending a relationship, it can be really difficult to now fall back into just the same routine of physical and emotional intimacy that you used to have. Again, if the two of you feel that uncoupling is the best idea, or deescalating is the best idea, it's probably a good idea to figure out some concrete ways to enact that. To actually put that into practice in your real life. How to actually kind of change these routines into new routines, and maybe even intentionally create some emotional or physical distance between the two of you. This is living in limbo and ambiguity, even though it can be comfortable to a certain extent of like, well we said that we'd break up, but now we're just doing the same thing.
Maybe it's not that, or maybe I don't know. The ambiguity is rough. It can lead to anxiety and question marks and just wondering if and when it's actually going to be over or not. A couple things to bear in mind to maybe help disrupt just falling back into that routine.
Emily: You talked about the pet names thing. I don't know if you remember this, Jase, but right after we broke up, you were like, "Baby", and then you were like, "Ded, I have to stop saying that." It hurt a lot. It sucked, but you were right. It was the thing to transition away from even though it sucked in the moment.
Jase: No, I know. Emily, when you wrote this one down on the list for this episode, I was like, "Oh shit." It's so hard because you get into the habit of calling them one thing. I think that it's something that would be helpful to have a conversation about it too, as part of that uncoupling process to say, okay, let's change the names that we call each other so that there's sort of you've planned it ahead of time as opposed to what you just described where it's me just realizing, Oh shit. I need to stop calling you that, and then it's Ooh, that's a surprise and unexpected. It's just something you don't even think about, but it was so weird for me to call you Em or Emily at the time. Whereas now it feels very natural, but that transition is challenging to change that habit.
Emily: Totally. Similarly, trying to get out of the habit of physical contact things, even smaller things like kissing and hand holding. It's hard, but you also need to navigate what that specifically means and what's going to look like now. Again, a conversation regarding those things is really, really helpful.
Dedeker: I think especially with deescalating where it's, well, maybe we're not totally throwing away all the normal trappings of romantic or sexual connection, but being very clear on what is and isn't on the table, total relationship. Also being honest with yourself of, can I have sex with this person while excluding X, Y, and Z, or it's going to be too difficult for me. Sometimes when you're in the midst of transition it's hard to be honest in that way with yourself.
Jase: I was just going to say, I think this is one that you can have multiple conversations about.
Emily: Yes. This could change over time.
Jase: Right, and it can be a quick check in of just, Hey, let's have another check-in again in a week about how we're feeling about the names we're calling each other and our physical contact or what we're doing together. Just, again, if you are still living together, especially where you're going to be around each other all the time, plan for those regular check-ins about it. Like we said, don't make the breakup stretch out, but it is okay to check-in during that transitioning process. I think that for Emily and myself recording a podcast together every week, was something that forced us to be in that situation of talking about relationships in more of an abstract. I think that can be really helpful in this case.
Emily: Just create a podcast with your ex, no problem.
Dedeker: Which Jase has secretly been doing this entire time with every single ex, it's just going on to create secret podcasts.
Jase: Yes, we have so many podcasts you don't know about.
Emily: Wouldn’t that be ridiculous Dedeker? Jeez.
Dedeker: It's the only coping mechanism he knows.
Emily: I know, good God. Another thing is to maybe don't attend events together, like as each other's plus one or plus whatever.
Dedeker: At least not right away.
Emily: Give each other some space and time. One of the articles that I read discussed going to a wedding, and that they had booked going to a beautiful hotel and stuff together. They broke up before the wedding and she decided, "Hey, I'm not going to go because you're the best man and I'm going to give you that weekend as opposed to me going and you being reminded of the fact that we just broke up." I think that that is another good way to be respectful and create a little bit of distance during this tumultuous time.
Jase: I would say that that was something that Emily, you and I, went to some events fairly early on that we had booked beforehand or whatever, and it was tough. It was hard and a little awkward. How long was -
Emily: Was six month.
Jase: Six months mark. We went to something together that we had booked. It was finally like Oh, this is fine now, but in that interim, it was hard. It was better for us to just have some space to reestablish how we are and who we are.
Next on our list here is, if you're in a monogamous relationship especially, but even if you're not, that now is not the time to get all jealous and territorial about who they're dating or who they're hanging out with or seeing. That's not your job. That's not your role, and that's not going to help you or them, if that's where you start going with this. I know that's so much easier said than done, but really just remind yourself, that's not my place.
Dedeker: I'm also going to clarify. It's okay to feel jealous. Your feelings are not wrong or bad that’s important to understand for that to come up, but acting on that might be problematic at this time.
Jase: It's not trying to clearly or passive aggressively say things to them about that, or accuse them about it or whatever. It's just not the time. You're not going to help anyone. That's not your job anymore. It never was. It was never your job, and it's still not now. There you go. If you are still living together, if you can find ways to have your own space. I know that that's not a luxury that everyone has of literally being able to sleep in separate rooms even or something like that, depending on your situation, but finding ways to have your own space as much as possible through the day. Let that be something that you can negotiate about and try to figure out.
Dedeker: If you're still falling into these patterns, you're still carrying on like a couple, it's okay to ask yourselves, okay, are we actually broken up? Is this something we really want? Is it the best decision for us or not? This can be a cue of like, okay, we need to have some more serious check-in conversation about this. Sometimes you do find that, at least I've definitely witnessed, that sometimes once the task of needing to save the relationship is off the table, that sometimes you can have much more honest conversations with people once that pressure is off. All the time I see it with clients if they finally break up with someone and then for the first time they can finally just have an honest conversation about how they're really feeling. Sometimes that prompts getting back together, or sometimes it just prompts being much more clear of what they need in order to actually uncouple more effectively. That could be a cue, but maybe we need to have a more specific check-in about this.
Emily: This break up, this uncoupling, this transitional phase, it can be tough on the other people in your life as well. It's not just affecting the two people that are going through it, but also other partners, friends, family. I know that I am notorious for talking about my ex with my mom over and over again for months. My mom is just eventually been like, "Okay, you're done now. We're not going to do this anymore." Maybe understand, at least have it in the back of your head, that this can be a challenging time for everyone involved.
If you are feeling a lot of negative energy, negative emotions, try your best. It's understandable if you do a bit. Even if you have an evening where, "Hey, I just got to get it all out on the table." Try not to bring this Uber negative energy into your other relationships, especially if you're non-monogamous, but your friends, your family, any of the above.
Dedeker: Again, not that anyone's expecting you to just keep these things totally compartmentalized, but I think it's more than the lines of taking this out on other partners. Of course, there's going to be some ripple.
Jase: Yes, but don't take it out on them. I think maybe that's the distinction to make.
Dedeker: Another thing to bear in mind, if you're not monogamous, is that your existing partner or partners, they're also losing a connection in some way as well. They're losing a metamour essentially, or this could be also your friend who could be just in an awkward position because they're also close to the person that you broke up with. Your friend or your partner, they could be inclined to take your side, they could be inclined to not take your side, they may want to totally stay out of it. It's just really important for everyone to be aware of boundaries around about what it is that they need, boundaries around allowing people to maintain appropriate relationships of what they need, and things like that.
That's dependent on what your situation is of how comfortable or how accessible it feels for your partner to still be friends with their metamour or whatever. Or you may break up and your partner's just overjoyed because they hated that metamour. That happens too.
Jase: That's true. That's true. Like Emily was saying about, don't take it out on the people close to you, also try not to make it the only thing you ever talk about for weeks on end.
Emily: I've totally done that.
Jase: Allow time for those people who are close to you to console you. Absolutely lean on them for support. Having a support network is huge. It's important for dealing with any kind of grief. Yes, absolutely take advantage of that, but also be sure that you are being a good friend/partner/family member who's also there for them and you're invested in your time with them, whether that's your date time with them, or it's family time, or just hanging out with your friends.
You could go back and listen to episode 284, where we talked about transitioning between different parts of your life, that in this transitioning from the, "I need support. I'm upset. I'm grieving too. Now I'm in the zone for hanging out with my friend or being on this date."
Dedeker: Then it's also possible that it may not be difficult for you to transition between dealing with the pain and grief of dealing with this breakup, and then shifting gears when you're with another partner or with a particular partner. You remember that grieving in general is different for everybody. For some people, it's easier to make those seamless transitions.
Emily: I've definitely heard people say, "Oh, well, our breakup's just easier when you're polyamorous just because you have other partners." Maybe that helps somewhat, but breakups are difficult for everyone. Really just having a good support network is super vital for dealing with any grieving process. If you are monogamous or polyamorous, having others help you and support you during this time, it's really imperative. Definitely, if you're going through some stuff, if you're having a rough time, find some support, don't make it your ex, but there hopefully are a lot of other people around you who can help you out during this time.
Dedeker: All right. Then we can talk about the age-old question of how do you friend with ex after uncoupled?
Emily: How indeed?
Jase: How indeed do you?
Dedeker: Can you friend? Should you friend? Will you friend? When will you friend? These are the important questions? Of course, lots of opinions floating around out there. I definitely heard some people say it's totally inappropriate to be friends with an ex, or people say they just have no desire whatsoever to be friendly with an ex. I've definitely been there for sure. We found that Terry Conley did their PhD research at the University of Michigan in their stigmatized sexualities lab. They found that a more polyamorous people are friends with their exes than monogamous people.
Jase: It doesn't surprise me really.
Emily: No.
Dedeker: A couple of contributing factors that just, if I were to guess, one of them being that often it's these very tight-knit sometimes incestuous communities where sometimes you're forced to have to be on good terms with somebody for better or worse um, there’s that.
Emily: Exactly. In fact, they found that in LGBTQ communities as well, that it's a much more tight-knit smaller groups. You're probably going to be around the same people fairly frequently, and you just got to learn to get along and figure that out.
Jase: Right. There's one motivation to just figure it out. Yes. That makes sense.
Dedeker: It seems like it's also tied to just the general non-monogamous or polyamorous value system as well. Maybe that's because people are more open to exploring things like de-escalation, where it's not necessarily this binary black and white. Either we're in a relationship or we're not, where it's maybe more accessible to be able to make that transition. I also think that backfire a little bit in that some people in the polyamorous community feel bad if they don't want to be friends with an ex, and they want to reassure people that, "You don't have to feel bad about that. That's okay too."
We don't want to ever create a situation where someone's feeling pressure to be friends with an ex that they don't want to, because it's not nice. It's really not nice. If you do have an interest in maintaining a friendship after the uncoupling, and your former partner is also interested as well, that's very important that this is a mutual interest that the two of you have. It's okay to give it some time so that the two of you can heal before engaging with one another emotionally again. That is okay. It's okay if it's not next week or next month or even in the next six months, it's okay to give it some time.
Emily: Yes. Time and space. Like we talked about before, literal actual space where you're not necessarily at the same event doing the same things, living in the same house, stuff like that. If possible, then try to respect each other's boundaries during that time, because boundaries, being respectful, that's what makes a good friend, and the good words to live by.
Dedeker: It's interesting. I've talked about this on the show before, that it feels like the only time I'm involved-- In my experience, the only time that I've ever been in a conversation, like argue with someone about whether or not I've been a good friend or not, has been with an ex. With my friends, I don't really get into those kind of arguments. It's usually when I've tried to become friends with an ex a little too soon that then we can get in the weeds of like, "Oh, well, a friend wouldn't do this." Or, "A friend wouldn't say no to my plans with this." Things like that.
I think a good litmus test, especially if you're plugged into the non-monogamous scene, is if you feel like you really can bring that kind of moral relationship anarchy approach to it of like, "I can't treat this person as a friend the way that I treat all my other friends. That means a minimum of possessiveness and the way that we negotiate time together is different." Then maybe that's a sign that it's time to be friends again. If that feels difficult for you, that's not a bad thing, but maybe it's okay to just give it more time and space.
Jase: I would say, on that same vein with thinking about their relationship anarchy idea of each relationship is custom made rather than just slapping one label on it, and then everything about that should apply, is that the label friend covers a huge range of things. There's people I refer to as friend who we maybe talk once every couple of years, and there's people who I call friend, like Emily, who I see multiple times a week and do business ventures with and go on trips with. There's people I'm super close or friends that I babysit their kids. Then there's other friends who will just see each other at work, but that's still called my friend.
There's this huge range of what is included in friend. I think that's where that problem can come up, like Dedeker mentioned, of, "You're not being a good enough friend." Because we just think we can slap this label on and we both understand and agree on what that means. I don't think we even agree with ourselves moment to moment about what that means. I think having that relationship anarchist approach of, "As we're doing this, let's evaluate what that means, what are specifically the things that we want to do together, how do we want this relationship to be?"
We can still be like, "Yes, we're friends. We'll check in maybe once a week or once a month, or however often feels comfortable for you." Then we'll just take it from you in there, and we'll be friendly to each other. Then maybe eventually it's like, "Okay, let's hang out a little bit more." Or, "Let's see each other more often, if that feels comfortable, but don't feel like because you put this label of friend, it has to look like one specific type of friend."
Emily: Totally. All of this, in conclusion, this is about decoupling intentionally with intentionality, and part of doing that, I think sometimes is having outside perspective, someone who is not specifically in your corner, but who has an objective viewpoint regarding all of this. If you can, I definitely highly recommend maybe seeing someone during this time, if you aren't already, I know there's a lot of great resources right now, most online things or most things are being done online.
Jase: By seeing someone, you mean like a therapist or counselor, or a coach, something like that.
Emily: Exactly, or a coach or someone. Decker, you always do all your stuff online, and even like better help. There are a bunch of different apps out there for doing fairly reasonably priced therapy. Just because I know from my own personal doing things, maybe without intentionality and just talking my everyone's ear off around me about my exes, that that can be challenging over time for them. It's nice to be able to have that on or that perspective from somebody else. If you can, I definitely highly recommend it.
We are going to move into our bonus episode for our patrons and talk about friends with benefits, because sometimes your exes turn into a kind of comet relationship, like someone who you come back to in a sexy way. We're going to talk about that, because there's some like stigmatize mean stuff about that from some people. Then it's actually really quite common, more common than you think, because we talked about before.
Jase: Yes, not just friends with benefits, but talking about just sex with your ex in general too, and the pros and cons of that, and some of the different opinions and different things people have found about that. The whole sex related thing when it comes to this ex-person.