294 - Triads and Throuples, and Quads, Oh My!
What’s a triad?
Although the concept of triads (sometimes called a throuple, though there are members of the community who prefer not to use that word) is widely discussed and used in media regarding polyamory (and is often the only representation of it), it’s definitely not the most practiced form of ethical non-monogamy. Being in a triad can be a wonderful and fulfilling experience, but there are some unique challenges that come with a multi-person relationship.
Six common conflict areas
These same conflict areas apply to relationships that are larger than triads, such as quads, as well, though for this episode we mainly focus on triads. The six main categories of conflict are defined by a Pew Research Study concerning the “Reasons for Disagreement in Romantic Relationships Scale” or RDRRS.
Inadequate Attention or Affection
Not showing enough love or affection, lack of communication, one not paying enough attention to the other: these can be exacerbated and enhanced by comparison of one person to the other in a triad. It could manifest as feeling as though you’re a third wheel, particularly if there’s a couple plus one dynamic. Ensuring that a new person both is not neglected and is simultaneously not fawned over too much can be vital. Regular RADARs can help with addressing issues with appreciation, hopefully before they become systemic.
Jealousy and Infidelity
Outside of polyamorous relationships, this may include talking to exes, being possessive, and past relationships. In polyamorous relationships, it’s more likely that jealousy will manifest earlier on between different triad members. In an established triad, these feelings might stem more from being left out of some situations and less from worry about being abandoned.
“Whose friends we hang around more” can also be included in the jealousy category, since one person may not feel like they’re getting their preferred friend group experience.
Chores and Responsibilities
The dynamic of housekeeping/chores and who does more work/sharing responsibilities can change drastically with different living situations. Continual communication is vital for this, as is the ability to be willing to readjust based on changing needs.
Not showing up when supposed to or not being on time falls into another responsibility and is commonly a reoccurring fight. One way isn’t better than the other in this case, there’s just more room for variation in a triad.
Sex
Frequency of sex, sexual acts, and one person wanting sex while the other doesn’t is another very common issue. Triads open doors for fun and amazing group sex, as well as different sex acts and possibly more frequent sex. As always, it involves frequent and active communication.
Sharing private information regarding the relationship to others can become an issue if one partner doesn’t feel comfortable having personal information shared but it might be assumed that the “established couple” might share everything with each other and keep each other’s lives secret, or that an established partner may think they are entitled to share information that another partner might not feel comfortable with that.
Control and Dominance
This includes who is in control, keeping up appearances, and dominance. Some members of the relationship might want a more quiet, normative life, while other(s) could want the opposite. Sociologically, it’s also possible that a triad, as a relationship with more members, may help balance each other and keep each other in check.
Future Plans and Money
Life goals, future plans, and children fall into this category. Many triads rush into things (then again, so do dyadic couples), so it’s always recommended not to sign anything in the first year in any relationship.
Who pays for things or one spending the other’s money can become a big conflict very quickly. We always recommend keeping finances separate unless you need to combine them for a specific reason.
Some additional concerns with triads or quads are navigating RADARs with three or more people, traveling together or going on dates with everyone, the fact that marriage is only allowed between two people, most of the time child custody is only granted to two people, and general power dynamics. Listen to the full episode to get all the details about triad-specific conflicts and challenges.
Transcript
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Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're talking about Triads and Throuples and Quads, oh, my! Triads and couples, and Throuples, and-- It's really hard to say that actually. Triads and Throuples and Quads, oh my!
Dedeker: That's enough, that's a very weird version of Wizard of Oz if we just extrapolate that whole storyline out.
Emily: Well, then they would be in a quad right beforehand-
Dedeker: Obviously.
Emily: -it would have been a triad between the three gentlemen and then--
Jase: Now they're quad I would say.
Emily: yes, Dorothy, yeah,it's a quad.
Dedeker: I do you like this quest that she's on, just slowly adding people to her polycule.
Jase: That's pretty fun, yes.
Emily: There you go. Great.
Jase: Three-person relationships or triads can be a hotly debated topic. The media loves to talk about them. They're also negatively associated with things like unicorn hunting, and many people have had bad experiences with them, but also a lot of people love them and want them. All that said, they can be awesome, exciting, fulfilling relationships, as well as having some unique challenges.
In this episode, we're going to talk about some of the most common areas of conflict in relationships in general, and how they apply specifically to three or more person relationships. As well as some extra logistical challenges that can come up for triads that might not be present in just two-person dyads. Even if you aren't in a triad and don't intend to be, you may still find some of the communication tips to be relevant to other group situations, so let's get to it.
Dedeker: You see, you wrote out relevant in other groups situations such as at work or with friends, or on the yellow brick road, or when the house is falling on your rival, it's helpful to know how to handle these tricky communication dynamics.
Emily: Absolutely.
Dedeker: I'm sorry, now you've really planted a seed with this weird polyamorous version of The Wizard of Oz. It's both exciting and scary at the same time.
Emily: It changes the moment when she sees color for the first time.
Jase: Oh, wow, so that's her non-monogamy awakening.
Emily: Awakening. Yes, there you go.
Dedeker: It's just like it doesn't have to be this way. I understand the relationship escalator. Oh, my goodness.
Emily: I love that.
Jase: I love that. That's great.
Emily: It's beautiful.
Dedeker: Oh goodness. Okay, so looking at the way that mainstream media covers topics like non-monogamy and polyamory, the impression you would get is that a triad equals the same exact name as polyamory. Polyamory always equals triads always. That's always what it is. Sometimes it'll be yes, polyamory equals a quad or polyamory equals some even larger polygon.
Emily: It's a polyamorous polygon.
Dedeker: Yes, definitely in mainstream media coverage, there's just not a lot of coverage of interconnecting dyads, which as it turns out are actually the most common way that people do practice multi-partner relationships. We went back and looked at a study that Ryan Witherspoon did, Dr. Ryan Witherspoon, who's been on the show before. The study, we're not sure if it's been published yet. This was not the main focus of the study, but we did just find this really interesting little snippet of information in his study, which is that, in surveying 864 polyamorous people, he found that only 12.6% of the participants identified as being in a triad and only 4.3% in a quad.
Again, these are not necessarily 100% scientifically validated numbers that represent the entire community. I think definitely of the people that I know in my experience being in the non-monogamous community, it feels pretty representative of either people who are actually in a functioning ongoing triad or quad is a minority within the community. It's been definitely my impression. What would the two of you say?
Jase: Absolutely, yes.
Emily: Yes. If you look--
Jase: I would say, it'd be interesting to find out how many people have ever been in a triad or a quad, I would bet that that would be significantly higher because--
Dedeker: Probably higher.
Emily: Definitely.
Jase: At least in my experience, having been in a few different triads, and I guess, one quad, that it's like they tend to come and go, not like they explode horribly, but just as people's relationships change, or people's life situations change, you may end up in a triad situation and then not. As opposed to the media depiction, which is this, we're three people who live together and have a kid together. It's what the--
Dedeker: We're a threeple.
Emily: Yes. I thought he was saying a threeple tooor that polyamory means that you all have to sleep together, and you all have to vet each other and say, "Yes, okay, you're allowed in, into the fold."
Dedeker: Yes. It's like you form this little cabal that-- I want to pose a challenge to any research students out there listening that it would be interesting to see if somebody wanted to do a survey of American let's say, American mainstream media coverage of profiles of polyamorous people. I'm willing to bet you'd probably find that quads, and especially triads are way over-represented, compared to the percentage that they actually take up in the community in reality.
Jase: Yes. I don't even think you need a study to know that that's true, but it'd be interesting to know the numbers of-- By what margin, how over-represented.
Emily: Yes. Professor Marzdan that was a big one. I just remembered that rigor-- Yes, besides the-- What is that one show that we always dunked on that was specifically--
Dedeker: What? Polyamory: Married & Dating?
Emily: No, the episodic show?
Dedeker: Oh, Me, You and Her ?
Emily: Yes, that's the one.
Dedeker: I was just talking about-- Not even in fictional stuff, but in news coverage. When they're like, "We called up-
Emily: I see, yes.
Jase: When they do an exposé about whatever yeah.
Dedeker: -this triad, to talk to them about what it's like and do a survey of a day in their life, of what they're like." Yes, that kind of stuff.
Jase: Yes. Part of the reason though, why we wanted to do this episode is that we still believe that the fundamental building block of human relationships are one-on-one relationships. That even when you're in a triad, still a lot of-- for most of us, our deeper, more intimate, more nuanced conversations are between two people, or resentments usually directed at one person, rather than to a group.
That happens too, but anyway, so that's why on this show, we tend to focus and we talk about communication as being between two people, even though that applies in larger settings, like work settings, or multi-partner relationships, things like that. We do want it to be clear though, that there are some people who-- There are some unique challenges for triads or other group relationships. There are some communication nuances that come up in those and so that's why on this episode we did want to talk about that. Because there are some people where that is their whole triad experience.
I was actually just reading recently from someone who surveyed a lot of different people in triads that actually, a not insignificant number of those triads were people who don't even identify as non-monogamous or polyamorous, who just-- This just happened and it worked out, and when asked, "If this ever stopped working, would you seek out another triad?" They're like, "No, I'm a monogamous person, this just works." That's also something that's interesting about it, that there is a lot of nuance within this world of-
Dedeker: A lot of variation and experience.
Jase: -triads. Yes, exactly. I just had a quick fun aside about the word throuple. We've talked about it before, we don't need to go into that. We don't like it, it's an outsider word, whatever. If you want to use it, though, it's fine. In looking into it, I did want to look into the origins of the word couple. The thing I found out was that couple comes from the Latin root co, which means together, and then apere, which means to attach together, which combined made the word copula or copula as we would pronounce it today.
Emily: Like copulate?
Jase: Yes, it's the same root as copulate.
Dedeker: C-I-U-- Emily is much sexier than I am because I heard copula and I went to linguistic term the copula verb.
Jase: That's where I went too, yes.
I went to grammar. Yes, linguistics also, copulate is from the same roots, exactly. Couple ended up coming out of that. Technically, it means bonded together or tied together and doesn't in itself specify just two. Although, obviously, in modern English that's what it means. I just thought that was fun that this came out of a discussion I saw online about the word dialogue. If you had a three-person conversation would it be a trialogue, and the response is basically being, “The dia in dialogue doesn't mean two,” no this is another situation.
Dedeker: What does the dia in dialogue means?
Jase: I think it means a through conversation, or something like that. I forget what it was. I can
Emily: Now, Dedeker is looking it up.
Jase: We’re all looking it up.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Yes. To speak through, dia is through, and logue means to speak.
Dedeker: Right. It's not the same dia as in dyad for two people.
Jase: Right. Exactly, is dia instead of dy. So it's a different--
Dedeker: Who knew?
Emily: Very cool, well done for looking that up.
Even though triads are not necessarily the main thing that we actually see in polyamorous life, we see usually interconnecting dyads. It still is a thing that's out there, a thing that we wanted to discuss today and they can be awesome.
We personally have been in relationships that are triads relationships, but they can look a ton of different ways in terms of gender identity, living structure, it can be everything from three men who all live together, and they raise kids together to maybe a non-binary couple who live together, they both have the same partner, that partner comes over, and they spend the night together, or three solo poly individuals that maybe all date each other, and then they occasionally all sleep together, but they don't live together maybe.
Jase: Right. Yes, they really cover a whole range.
Emily: Absolutely. There is this media emphasis on triads as we said before, and this similarity to a couple plus another person. That is a trope that we've seen in media, but also in people who are new to non-monogamy that they're going to try to seek out, finding a partner together, and forcing this triad to happen, even though perhaps one or more of those people don't want to be in a triad.
Dedeker: Yes. It's definitely this weird thing, I think because triads end up getting a little bit over represented, and also a little bit fetishized for sure, especially the classic man with two women, a man with two bisexual women is so fetishized, has been for so long. The way that I think about it is that triads seem like they’re the gateway drug into polyamory, or non-monogamy. Usually, for a couple it's this idea of, “Okay. If we can find our unicorn, or find our third,” that's the closest safest feeling thing that is the transition into potentially being non-monogamous.
Emily: A lot of people who are new to polyamory will try to date the same person, maybe they're not classifying themselves as a triad, but they're like, “Okay. You get to date her, and so do I. Maybe we'll get to have sex all together, and that'll be really fun.” That also somehow feels safer for them.
Jase: Right. It's like somehow less threatening that way.
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: A lot of people will try so hard to find this thing, and ironically make their journey into polyamory, and non-monogamy much more difficult because they're focusing on such a narrow version of what that can look like, as opposed to the whole broad spectrum of how non-monogamy can look.
Dedeker: Yes. I’ve definitely seen that for some people who end up in a little bit of maybe a messy metamorph situation, or they're having trouble juggling the complex needs of having multiple partners, some people thinking like, “This would be a lot easier if I could just get my other partners together,” just close the loop as it were, and then we can do everything together, then it's super easy, we can do dates together, sex together, and cooking together.
Then, I get to maximize my time, and maximize my efficiency by making everybody be in this relationship together. Sure, that does work out sometimes, usually it doesn't, usually this orchestrating of trying to, I don't know, force this group of people to be together, I’ve seen tends to lead to a lot of resentment. The thing that I always think about whenever I see triads and quads, or even bigger more group style relationships, or even polycules.
Just something to bear in mind, there's always going to be one person who's having less fun than everybody else, essentially. Doesn't mean they're not having any fun at all. Not at all. It doesn't mean that it's doomed to failure, things like that, but it's just like that's just the way things go. There's always someone who's going to be the person who's the least jazzed about this arrangement than everybody else.
That's important to think about, I think, when it comes to things like triads and quads. I think that's why it needs extra time, extra checking, and extra communication. Because it's like when those kind of things don't get noticed or don't get picked up on, that's what leads to resentment. I think that's why things, especially like quads, end up being so naturally, sometimes, unstable.
Jase: Interesting. Yes. I think that this is something that makes me think about analogies too. I always love trying to come up with analogies to help me understand things better.
Emily: Yes, we know.
Jase: If you think about it, and we'll get into this in the bonus when we talk about sociology research about triads. Not these kinds of triads, but a different sort of sociology triad, but is this idea that there is a natural tendency, say, you have two different friends and you become very close with both of those friends. There is a tendency to want to bring those two friends together, so that you can all hang out together, so that you can maximize your time. That you get to see them both. That's a pretty natural thing and a fairly common thing. A lot of times that's how we meet other friends is because of mutual friends.
There is something very, I don't know, I guess natural, fundamental, essential, and universal to that sort of behavior. When it comes to friends, we tend to not force quite as many expectations on that as we do onto like, "We need to date the same person." It's interesting and, again, we'll talk about this more in the bonus, but in sociology terms, what we, in polyamory, would call a V. Where two people are dating the same person and maybe they chat every now and then, or they talk to each other. In sociology terms, that is a triad. That there is a connection there.
Dedeker: Really?
Jase: In non-monogamy, we think of a triad meaning that we're all having sex together generally, or that we're all romantic together, or something. The standard for being a triad is it involves more requirements, I guess, or it could. That's also something, maybe, just to be aware of and realize, I guess, that there can also be more breadth in what you consider to be a triad. Maybe realize that the problem isn't itself connecting those people, but forcing it to be a certain type of connection.
Dedeker: Yes, it's interesting talking about the, "Forcing something to be something," versus, "Kind of ending up there." Because I do feel that, in my personal experience, my triad and quad experiences that were positive, were ones that did happen a little bit more organically. I even realized earlier in the episode, Jase, that we've been in a quad. It's like, Jase, first you started dating one half of a particular couple, then, years later, I started dating the other half of that couple, but I never identified that as a quad even though technically the shape of it was such.
Emily: That's my question. If it's a quad, does that mean that every single person is engaged in relations together of a sexual nature, potentially, or romantic? Because you two were really just two people dating each other.
Dedeker: There were some sexual situations, also, but not like-- I don't know. I don't make up the rules, Emily.
Emily: No, I know, but I want you to tell me.
Jase: That's kind of our point here, though. It's not so black and white about what those rules are. Because I think that when the media talks about this or when people who are not polyamorous themselves think about a triad or a quad, to them, it's always they all live together.
Emily: They all live together or they all sleep together, yes.
Jase: Both of those. I'd say, "They all live together. They all have sex with each other." That kind of is the assumption or the association from outside. For some people, it is that, but for others it's not, even if they do live together. For example, I was just reading a story recently about a triad where they live in a three-bedroom apartment. They each have their own room too, so it's not like the image of, "They all pile into the same bed." They do sometimes, but they don't have to. It's not always that and I think that each date other people outside of that as well or at least do sometimes.
Emily: That's poly-fidelitous friend.
Emily: Just kidding.
Dedeker: Something like that.
Jase: Right. Anyway, I guess just that, that it can look a lot of different ways. That the stuff we're talking about in this episode, some of it, I think will be more relevant to people who do live together because people do that. Also relevant to places where they don't. We're going to touch on those as we go through these different areas of conflict of how they can apply differently, if they're more of a couple with a third, who doesn't live with them dynamic versus everyone living together, versus everyone separate, things like that.
Emily: I guess I'll just say it's in a similar fashion to what we were talking about earlier, that when the three of us were engaged in a relationship, it did feel really organic. It just came out of the relationships that we were in. With the fourth person involved, it was at one point fine-ish, but then it became not fine. I think that was an example of someone not feeling good or feeling less good about the situation as the other three. That's just interesting and that did feel perhaps a little bit more forced than just the organic relationship between the three of us.
Dedeker: In our history, we started out as a quad that then collapsed into a triad for a little while. I definitely think about that. I think, it's definitely an example of how sometimes just group dynamics can create weird power dynamics with any structure. Whether that's a triad or a quad, or larger things like that, or even just the polycule that's not necessarily all co-connected or commingled. That there can definitely be a sense of, oh, but everyone else in the group wants to do X, Y, and Z and I don't feel like I have a choice, or I don't feel empowered to speak up, or I'm just going to hold on to it and be resentful.
Emily: Until finally, it does blow up and then it really blows up.
Dedeker: Yes, that's definitely something to think about, I think with all of these things. All right, so for this--
Jase: The meat of this episode, which is talking about the six most common areas of conflict in relationships, and how those apply in three or more person relationships. Before we get to that, we're going to take a quick break to talk about how you can support this show, keep this content coming to all of you all for free out there.
Dedeker: All right, for this episode, we're mostly going to be referring to triads specifically, but the same concepts apply to quads or even larger group relationships, or even dyads as well. We're going to go through the six main categories or common areas of conflict. Once we get past four people with some of these conversations, the conversational dynamic can change quite a bit. Understandably, there is a reason why quite naturally, groups larger than four or social gatherings almost always split off into smaller conversations, unless there's some structured discussion format. That's why right now when you're having your Zoom birthday parties, it doesn't feel like a real party, because--
Jase: You can't break off.
Emily: You all have to look at each other and it's really annoying.
Dedeker: You all have to be in this weird 12 person conversation at the same time, and you can't break off into tinier groups to have conversations, so that's part of why things feel odd.
Emily: That's only one of the reasons why things feel odd, but yes, that definitely is one of them. All right, let's get into these six main categories of disagreement. This is identified by a Pew Research study, which is all about the Reasons for Disagreement in Romantic Relationships Scale, or RDRRS.
Dedeker: It's almost like radars, but it's like the opposite of radars.
Jase: You're right. That's a little bit like radars. So you have radar to address your RDRRS.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: Yes, you go it.
Emily: I'm going to quickly point out the six and then we're going to get into each of them specifically. The first one is going to be inadequate attention or affection. The second jealousy and infidelity. The third chores and responsibilities. Oh, boy, we had a whole episode about that one. Sex is number four. Control and dominance is number five, and then future plans and money is six. Let's go into the first one. All right, so inadequate attention or affection.
It's something that can happen in any relationship, but definitely polyamorous ones. Not showing enough love or affection, having lack of communication, and then one person maybe not paying enough attention to another person. These can really be enhanced by comparisons made to other people in the relationship. It may be your partner is dating someone new and you feel like there are comparisons being made between the two of you.
Whether or not those are internal comparisons or external comparisons, you could be feeling like your partner is more distant from you, or you're losing both people in the relationship if you are in a triad or that you're the third wheel. That's a tough one, especially in a triad relationship. If there is a couple and a couple plus a third dynamic, then you really definitely need to be careful about this one. Both about maybe neglecting the new person or about being so excited having so much NRE for the new person, that you're not focusing on the existing relationship.
Jase: That one's interesting because it can go either way there.
Emily: Absolutely.
Jase: I think it's worth mentioning that this study that came up with these six categories for disagreements, these were with married couples, with heterosexual married couples is what they studied. That's just, we're using this as a jumping-off point and looking at how these things can change when you're non-monogamous and specifically when you're in a triad or a quad.
I think it's like this idea of not having adequate attention or affection affects all relationships. That's a fairly universal thing, but within triads, there's these little nuances for how that can show up or extra, I guess, traps for how that might show up and you might not be aware of it, especially with NRE being involved, because it's messing with all your brain chemicals.
Emily: Yes. Within this category not being appreciated is another thing that can happen. Again, this is a big issue if there is this established couple that adds a third dynamic that's happening here. It is really important to address things like this before they become a big systemic issue within your relationship and something like RDRRS that we've talked about ad nauseam on our show, but it's great. Go back to Episode 147 to learn all about RDRRS again. That's a really good way to address this issue before it becomes blown up and out of control.
Dedeker: Yes, I've definitely, in my work, I've come across a surprisingly number of clients who are a third, or even seek out being a third or want to date a couple and stuff like that. Maybe I'm just biased by the people that end up coming to me, but it's like I see thirds, often do a lot of emotional labor for the couples that they date, a lot. A lot of being really intentional of okay, I'm going to make sure everyone gets a relatively equal feeling amount of attention and communication.
I'm going to try to be really intentional and I'm going to try to or if they're having issues, I'm going to try to give them space and be understanding or I'm going to help them talk through things. I mean, not that that's a bad thing, but it is something that if this is something that's not acknowledged, or it doesn't feel like there's a relatively equal exchange of emotional labor, that that can lead to resentment for sure. I think it definitely falls into this category of feeling like there's not enough affection or not enough appreciation.
That leads us into the next category of conflict in this RDRRS scale, which is jealousy and infidelity. In traditionally monogamous relationships, this could include things like talking to an ex-partner, feeling possessive, feeling jealous of what happened in past relationships. For non-monogamous relationships, the jealousy is more likely to show up earlier on often between other members of the triad. I've definitely seen that as a triad's getting settled and trying to figure out how they work in that unknown phase of not being sure how these relationships are all going to play out.
Of course, it's like, we all know that it's probably unlikely that it's going to be just perfectly equal amounts of attention and affection and attachment between all three legs of the triangle, but it's that early phase of figuring that out that that can definitely bring up a lot of feelings of jealousy of who's getting more attention, who's getting more affection.
I mean, it goes so hand in hand with that first item on the scale about also feeling a lack of affection, things like that. For more established triads, jealousy can come up in regards to feeling left out of certain situations, but it may be less likely to come from a place of being worried that you'll be abandoned or not loved. Again, every single situation is different, especially when it comes to jealousy.
Jase: Yes, absolutely. I think it's also one of those things within polyamory. Jealousy carries this extra stigma of if I'm feeling jealous, I must be doing something wrong.
Emily: I'm a bad polyamorous person.
Jase: Right. We can sometimes not acknowledge that that's coming from something. Maybe it is from not feeling appreciated enough. Maybe it's that there's some need or desire of mine that's not being met. Something like that. Things like RDRRS, ways to communicate about that before that becomes so bad that your experience is awful is really important, to get to the root of what's making you feel those things. Within this jealousy and infidelity category, one of the topics of disagreement that they mentioned were about whose friends do we hang around more. I thought this one was-
Emily: It's really interesting, yes.
Jase: -interesting. Yes, that it's included in the jealousy and infidelity category. I guess I could see it from jealousy. "If we get to hang out with all your friends, but you never want to come hang out with my friends." I could just see it like that, "Yes, that makes a lot of sense." I realized that, with non-monogamy, this could also come up in terms of how out you are, or how extroverted you are. The example of outness is, say you're in a triad where one person or two people are very much out at work, they're out to everyone they know.
They can be out and proud and all hold hands together and be social, but you don't feel like you can bring them around your friend group, because you're not as out, and you know that they're going to act that way and that's going to potentially compromise your job or your safety, or at least just not be something you're comfortable with. That's kind of an extra layer that can add to making sure that we're able to all be with our friend groups, or be around our coworkers and feel comfortable and safe still being in this relationship. Just kind of an extra thing to consider.
Emily: Now, we're getting into chores and responsibilities. Oh, boy, yes, this is one near and dear to our hearts. Things like house-keeping, chores, who does more work, sharing responsibilities, things like that. This dynamic can really change with a living situation. If you are all living together, then that's one thing, but, if you are two people living together and one person does not live full-time with the others, they have their own home responsibilities that they have to take care of. It's probably unfair to have them try to come in and need to share equal responsibility with everyone else.
Jase: Equal responsibility in your house, while also having their own house, yes.
Emily: Yes, exactly. Yes, communication is a really big thing here, with anyone involved in any sort of chore dynamic. We did have an episode fairly recently on this, so go back and listen to that, for sure. Child care, that's a big thing. There are these typical, sort of unicorn hunting situations where the third is exploited for free child care. That is a shitty situation to get in. That's a shitty situation to put someone else in. It doesn't happen all the time, but, if it is happening, if you're seeing that happening within your relationship, then maybe think about that. Maybe sit there and have a long, hard think.
Dedeker: I've definitely seen some couples airing on the side of unicorn hunting. I think, sometimes, out of a place of desperation of, "Having another adult would be great."
Emily: Interesting, yes.
Dedeker: Just in general, which is true. It is true. Yes, I think this dynamic definitely really changes, depending on what your living situation is going to be. It's really important to talk about this stuff, I think even before you all live together.
Emily: Yes, know what the expectations are and just establishing good communication from the beginning is really vital to a healthy relationship in general, but it can hopefully help sort of get these big, hard decisions and talks out of the way. Another thing that goes sort of in the responsibility category rather than the chore category, is things like not showing up when one is supposed to, or being on time or being flakey, things like that. This is more related to the responsibility category.
We talked about, this is a common example of a reoccurring fight that may happen in our Episode 234. Wow, that's amazing how long ago that was, which was Repair Shop, our Repair Shop episode, so go back and check that out. Not everybody is going to be punctual. There is not just one right way of being on time or being timely in general, maybe, isn't necessarily better than going with the flow and being spontaneous and enjoying yourself.
If you do have big differences between yourself and your partner or partners, then that is something to think about, something to talk about with them. If it is very, very important to another person that, "Hey, you follow through to your commitments, you show up on time to things, or that we can all go to something together, and that we'll know that you're going to be there or be on time," then, yes, that's yet another thing to have to talk about and communicate about.
Jase: I actually think that there's an interesting dynamic that happens, that can happen with three person groups. I'm thinking specifically of, we have a lot of experience figuring out how to communicate with three people, together about-
Emily: That's true.
Jase: -communicating very frequently about things that involve our money and our time and our commitments. Even if we're not all in a romantic or sexual relationship, we do have a lot of experience in that way. I actually think that there's certain things when a triad is functioning well, especially if it's kind of stabilized, that there's actually a lot of these problems that I think a triad can help with. Something like this, with timeliness, where, if it's just you and one other person, and they're always late, and that really irks you, that can be a recurring fight, like we talked about before in Episode 234.
If there's three people and there's one person who's always late, there can sometimes be this sense of, "Hey, we're the two who are on time. Okay, they're going to be late, but we're here to support each other in that," so it's less like, "I'm here alone, fuming, that I'm frustrated about that." Anyway, there's just some interesting dynamics that can change those things, or if there's the one person who's always 15 minutes early, like, to them, that's on time, then the other two, they might help each other to be like, "Hey, we got to remember that they're always 15 minutes early, so let's go be sure that we do that too to try to not have them feeling alone."
Dedeker: I have to say, and again, I want to zoom this out and take this out of just the realm of timeliness or not, because it applies to so many other things, but I do think, I can't tell the number of times that I have said to Jase, "Thank God there's three of us on this podcast."
Emily: Yes, yes.
Dedeker: Thank God there's three of us making these decisions. It makes it hard. Of course, when you add more people to a decision making process, that decision making process tends to then expand accordingly, but I don't know. I do feel there really is something kind of magical, sometimes, about having three people, making decisions or figuring these things out or running a business in this way, or could be running a household or figuring out parenting or stuff like that.
Again, if there's no toxic dynamics there, and we figured out a way that works for us, that it really can help, I think, prevent a lot of, certain cyclical, recurring dynamics that may happen between couples with particular conversations. Just having three different perspectives, even though it can make things a little more complex. I think, in my experience, at least when it comes to running a podcast or running this business, I think it's really, really helped us immensely.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: I agree. Well done, us.
Jase: Well done. It's actually, it's funny, researching this episode, and thinking about the three of us and stuff has made me think more about, "Gosh, triad relationship actually sounds amazing." Again, assuming that it's functioning well and that people are comfortable with it and that it has some flexibility to it, that it's not trying to rigidly be one thing.
When I think about how, over the years of doing this show, how often one of the three of us will either be super overwhelmed, or feeling just depressed and down and hard on ourselves, or is letting criticism get to them, or whatever, and that the other two are there to help pick them up and support them, or take on some extra burden because they're really overwhelmed.
In a way that, when it's just two people, that can be harder to do, because there's just one of you trying to hold up the other. I've had that experience with just one other person where we take turns like dragging each other down. Not intentionally, but you can get caught in that cycle. I find, with three, you just have a little more leverage to help each other out.
Emily: Yes, it is a magical number, for sure.
Jase: Okay. Category number four, sex. Sex. I'm trying to make it a two syllable word, sex.
Dedeker: Sex. We should add some Hs in the middle there.
Jase: This includes things like one person wanting sex more than someone else, or how frequent we have sex, or what types of sexual acts we do, things like that. At its best, a triad involves awesome--
Dedeker: Could involve.
Jase: Could involve awesome group sex, as well as not always having to be in a group, and a variety of sexual acts with your different partners. This could be anything from one partner having a much
higher sex drive and they could be then getting their needs met by the combined efforts of the two different partners and each of those partners only have to have sex half as often as the ones who wants to have it all the time. It could look something like that or it could be about two of the people exploring a certain kink together that the other might dabble with a little bit, but isn't as into as the other two.
What I'm getting at is not saying like a triad is good if everyone's having lots of sex. I don't mean that at all. What I mean is when there's freedom to get your sexual needs met and that the triad is helping that rather than being something that's like, gosh, I feel like I'm now forced to have sex twice as often because there's two people wanting it from me.
Dedeker: Or now I'm forced to only have group sex.
Jase: Exactly. Yes. I don't get that one on one intimacy that I also like.
Dedeker: I will say as fun as group sex is, everyone reaches the point of being sick of it. Maybe that's a controversial opinion. That's a controversial opinion. I've just seen and also experienced that it's fun. Threesomes are fun, moresomes are fun, orgies are fun, but if that's the only thing you get access to in a particular relationship at a certain point, it's gets just a little exhausting and dehydrating, really.
Definitely, I think because there is this like-- it's like in a triad, there's inherently that wide range of options that could be boiled down to either just having the opportunity for group sex, everybody's together or having one on one sex with multiple people, that means that it is also right for there potentially to be conflict around this. We've all heard of the typical nearsighted unicorn hunter-y rule of we're only allowed to all have sex all together and the main couple can have sex together but the third is only allowed to be brought in for threesomes. There's no one on one sex or and maybe even during the group sex.
Emily: You're to sit in the corner and watch.
Dedeker: Some people could be into that. Some people could be excited by that but stuff like that, that this is also an area that's important to feel comfortable talking about and communicating about in a really proactive way. What's interesting is that according to this pew research study that put all this information together, under the sex category, they also categorize conflict around telling private information about your relationship to others, which is really, really interesting.
Emily: And that that's in the sex category.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: I think get it. I think understand what they're getting at. Some people are like, no, that's our private information. We don't talk to our friends about that. We don't talk to potentially other partners outside of the triad about it. Other people just don't care. It's like, whatever.
Dedeker: I think that this is a common area of conflict, especially if all three people in a triad don't live together and maybe two of them do live together like the classic T shaped relationship have an established couple that lives together and then a third. When people complain about couple privilege, this is often one of the examples. It's assumed that the established couple, they can share everything with each other, they can keep each other, but also they can insulate their relationship to be a little bit more secret and keep the third always on the outside.
Any information about the third that comes in gets to be shared between the two of them or an established partner might think that they're free to share anything about their life together with whoever when one partner doesn't feel okay with that. This is also related to conflict around outness and just who feels comfortable talking about the status of the relationship or what sex they have or how often or when or things like that.
I feel like this also starts to get into the territory of-- I know, there's always an ongoing discussion around disclosing sexual health status. Always some discussion and controversy around what's the happy median between protecting someone's privacy and protecting someone's privacy about their health, while at the same time being able to convey enough information so people can make informed decisions to protect their health as well? I think it starts to get into that.
Jase: It seems like with all of these, it's like something to not just assume you're all on the same page and not just assume that it's going to stay the same.
Emily: Yes. We have very explicit communication about it and if that communication changes or if you're like, "Hey, actually, I'm not comfortable with this." That you speak about that.
Jase: Yes. Having something regularly to check in on that because it might be something where--
Emily: Like a radar.
Jase: Like a radar, yes, exactly. It might be something you're not comfortable with at one point and then you become more comfortable. That's good to address or the opposite, right?
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Next category. Number five is control and dominance.
Emily: Whoa.
Dedeker: I was not expecting that to be a category, but I get it. It feels like control and dominance, feels like that's a big umbrella category around all of these things if like, if someone's trying to dominate and impose their will and what they want for any of these categories, that's going to be an issue, right?
Jase: Yes, we often refer to it like power imbalances or power dynamics. I think that's what they're going for with this. In their study, this included disagreements over things like who's in control and just dominance in general. One of the things they put in there is about what to wear. Which I was like, "Whoa."
Emily: Saying like, I like you in this or I like you looking a certain way or what?
Jase: Or like, I don't want you wearing that type of thing.
Dedeker: Or you're embarrassing to me if you go out wearing that, x y z, I don’t know.
Jase: Yikes. What if this wasn't a category for disagreement, but just to like, deal-breaker people? Now, of course, I do want to be clear, when we're talking about control and dominance, we're not talking about that within the context of a dom-sub--
Dedeker: Not in a consensually sexy way?
Jase: Right. We're not talking about that because these can all be dynamics in that but more if these are part of your normal life. The what to wear thing. I was like, okay, that just seems really extreme I'm like, what are you talking about. Maybe the closest analogue would be about outness and PDA and things like that. It's not so much about like, I'm going to control how you are, but more, I might have a certain way of being and going about relationships that you might not be comfortable with and am I the one who's dominant and imposing that like we've got to have all this PDA or that we can't ever because that's the way I want it and you're just accepting that even though you're not as comfortable with it.
We'll talk about this a little bit with the sociology triad theory. One thing it mentioned that some of the research talks about is this tendency within triads where if one person is more dominant that the other two will form a coalition to empower themselves to balance that one who's more in power. Similarly, if there's one party of the three who's weaker socially or power-wise or however, that both of the people with more power will seek out coalitions with that person and again try to balance it.
This is again one of those places where I feel like the triad could actually be a really helpful thing for this dynamic that you don't get in just a dyad. Where if you have just a naturally more dominant personality and a more submissive one, that that's a real hard thing to even out sometimes in a dyad, but in a triad, you might have some more resources because that other person might be able to help support and lift that up to balance it out.
Dedeker: I feel like that definitely comes up in our little emotional business running triad amongst the three of us of like when some of us, myself, become a little too dominant and controlling and too attached to particular things that generally, it's good to have the two of you that help balance that out.
Emily: Jase is definitely the one who feels overwhelmed quite a lot/is like, I'm taking on too much. We're like, "Let's help with that." Then I'm the one who cries all the time. And so you help me with that.
Dedeker: You cry and we definitely rush in to comfort, and--
Emily: Yes, to lift up my cryingness.
Now all you listeners know what I'm dealing with.
Jase: It all varies too. There's times where each of the three of us has been just so overwhelmed or feeling down or whatever and then it can switch around which is nice.
Dedeker: It helps. Let's move on to the last area on the scale, which is future plans in money. That includes things like goals for your life, either personal goals or relationship goals, plans that you have in the future, talking about children or making a family or things like that. On the one hand, we have definitely seen so many triads that rush into making these future plans way, way, way before they've established any steady rhythm in the relationship, established whether or not we're actually compatible, whether or not we actually want the same thing. Couples do this too, so no surprises there, for sure.
I think that when it comes to triads because they're so fetishized and they are in reality, fairly rare and I also feel like people who are seeking a triad have a sense of how rare and how difficult it is to find somebody or multiple people for a triad that there often is the sense of the first person that comes along. Oh my God, we need to take this opportunity. The window's going to close. We need to grab this person, escalate with them to start talking about having babies, start talking about moving in because this is not going to come along again. This happens all the time. Again, happens in dyadic relationships too.
Definitely when you're NRE with somebody or if you're trying to realize a very specific vision for yourself or your probably relationships, of course, it's great to enjoy that NRE and it's great to enjoy all the wonderful benefits that a triad can bring. Again, as we always say, don't sign anything in the first year of being NRE with somebody. Don't sign anything, don't sign a lease, don't sign an adoption contract, don't sign a shared cell phone plan, don't sign a-- What else can you sign? I don't know. .
Jase: A bank account together.
Emily: You can buy an animal together.
Dedeker: Don't sign adoption papers on a dog. It's not to say that any of those are bad things. It's just wait, y'all just take your time. Just don't make any major life decisions if you can help it while in the throes of NRE, don't invite your third to move in with you within a month, it's okay. I promise you, it's okay. I promise you, it's okay. I'm shaking my hands. I cannot promise you hard enough that it's going to be okay to take your time.
Emily: No, just sorry. Those feelings have happened, definitely. Probably to all of us, or maybe Dedeker, you're so pragmatic that you're like, this has never happened to me. I've never signed anything in the first year.
Jase: Oh, no. She's done this. She's done this .
Dedeker: Oh, so bad. I feel so bad at this.
Emily: Jase and I moved in within 11 months of meeting each other.
Dedeker: You just barely squeaked in then.
Emily: Just barely, but then we also got cats.
Dedeker: I don't think I've ever done this with a triad. Although did we start multiamory in the first year of being a triad?
Emily: Oh, yes. Sure.
Jase: Oh, yes. We got real lucky on that.
Emily: We got really lucky.
Dedeker: We didn't know but we weren't throwing down major money or getting into any contract. It was just like, let's record the podcast and have a talk. We were just like like little baby podcasters. Okay. That's okay. That's okay then.
Emily: We willed this thing to be what it is today.
Dedeker: Definitely, in my dyadic relationships in the past have been real bad about this and it's not gone good. It has not gone good.
Jase: Yes. Okay. The next thing in this category about future plans and money is the money part. Questions like who pays for stuff or someone using all of someone else's money or things like that.
Emily: All of it.
Jase: Yes. We talked about this in previous episodes about managing money as well, but there's a lot to factor into this. It's not just make it all equal. It also depends on each person's earning potential and their life choices as well as their desired lifestyle and the cost of that. There's a lot of factors to go into this. It's too much to try to cover all that again right now, but some good resources to look at for this are actually resources for roommates negotiating bills and expenses because a lot of the common conversations that might come up also would come up in that same situation where you're sharing the expenses for the place you live.
Just keep all that in mind. I recommend this for dyads as well as triads or quads is whenever possible, keep as much of your finances separate as possible. I know this is a controversial opinion.
Dedeker: At least partly separate.
Jase: At least partly separate. If you're going to join finances together, like open a bank account together, do it for a reason. Have it be intentional. Maybe it's like most of my money goes into my own account and into this shared account is where we specifically put a certain amount of money that we've agreed upon beforehand for our shared expenses, but it's not just like everything goes in there, so then, when I go buy a new 4k TV suddenly I've spent all of our money on that when it's really something that I'm excited about.
As much as possible, just keep that in mind and don't rush into sharing finances more than you absolutely need to. Maybe ideally find someone who is like a financial advisor, who's poly friendly look up on like the poly professionals or the kink-aware professionals list and try to find financial advisors or accountants or someone to help you.
Dedeker: Go hit up our guests Hadassah Damien at her site because she's also polyamory friendly.
Jase: Absolutely. Yes.
Emily: Yes. All righty. Finally, let's get into some extra concerns that we didn't talk about here.
Dedeker: It's a catch all that didn't end up on the readers.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Yes. I guess things that are maybe the more logistical concerns or more external factors and not just about disagreements within the relationship. First one I wanted to bring up is just having a conversation with three people is different than with two. When it comes to doing something like a radar with three people, I would actually recommend if you're in a triad, that you do your radars as twos, but you could also do one as the three.
Emily: That's a lot of radar-ing.
Jase: It does feel like a lot of radars. A triad is another relationship you're adding with.
Dedeker: Yes, it is.
Jase: It takes extra care. It's one of those real hardcore giga pets that when it dies, it's dead forever, so you really got to pay attention.
Emily: Jeez.
Dedeker: Whoa, Jase. Gosh. Talk about metaphors, I was not expecting that.
Emily: Wait, giga pets are like when we were kids, that's not a thing anymore.
Jase: That's not a thing.
Emily: Sorry, 20 year olds.
Dedeker: None of the young kids think that's so silly.
Emily: Yes, 20 year old at--
Dedeker: They're not impressed by giga pets or tamagotchis at all.
Emily: No idea what that is.
Dedeker: Okay. Well, but I think though with things like a relationship check-in or a radar, at least the way that we've tried to design our formula, the radar, is to try to make it flexible enough that you could do-- try something like, okay, we have the big beefy radar, all three of us where we stay very formal and we go through all of the different categories, especially if you're living together, we talk about all those things and then maybe we have our little individual check-ins with each dyad that are maybe a little bit more informal or a little bit more casual or vice versa.
It could be, we have these more structured check-in conversations with each of the dyads and then we have a weekly ritual of Friday nights, we have dinner and just have a little break general check-in, but I do think that those conversations are a good opportunity for-- Again, it's like, if someone is just more inclined to not want to bring things up or be more quiet that actually having three people in the conversation can help with that, if the two other people are at least savvy and aware of those dynamics.
Emily: You should speak up a little bit more or what do you think?
Dedeker: What do you think? Yes, because it's just the two of us talking and we haven't heard anything from you.
Jase: Absolutely. That's what I wanted to emphasize as well, so I'm glad you brought that up. With three, it can also be easy for one person to just disappear into the background on certain conversations. Really be aware of that, make sure everyone's having time and--
Emily: Especially if the other two really enjoy dominating the conversation and I'm looking at both of them.
Dedeker: When we're in a business meeting and I'm being
Emily: I just sit there.
Dedeker: -Jase and I are butting heads, and then sometimes like, "Emily, what do you think?"
Emily: I'm like, Whoa, okay.
Dedeker: Emily, say something.
Emily: It's time for me to be the mediator again. It's fun. Yes. Our last meeting went quiet. It was quite chill.
Jase: It was great.
Emily: It was good.
Dedeker: We've gotten a lot better over the years. It's so much practice.
Emily: It's taking six years, but here we are. All right. The next one is traveling together or going on dates with all three. Again, depending on how out you are, this is really going to be a big thing. I'm sorry. Quick story. I remember when I was out with my partner who I live with when we were still dating other people and we were out with this lovely woman that both of us were dating. I sat at the bar with that woman while he was getting us drinks and this guy comes over to us and it's like, Hey ladies, and getting all in and stuff.
Then as soon as Josh walked over, he was like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Oh, wow. Okay. Whoa, sorry man. Sorry, and ran away. I'm like, really? This is another freaking, showing that women relationships are not as big of a deal is between men.
Dedeker: We can rant about that for hours, honestly. I could go off on a whole thing about how just the presence of a man unfortunately does more for protecting you from weird other men than just like yourself. It drives me wild. I'm going to stuff down that anger for another day.
Emily: No, it's all good. Yes.
Jase: Same time, yes.
Emily: When you are going on dates with all three people, it's an interesting consideration to think about whether or not that's even going to happen, whether or not you're going to always just go out together or you still have two person dates, stuff like that, and traveling together.
Jase: Right. Just the logistics. A lot of places will offer packages for two that they don't offer for three, whether that's for Valentine's day or like travel, like you were saying, Emily, there's your interpersonal dynamics, but there's also just the fact that the world is not accommodating for the most part.
Dedeker: Yes, definitely.
Emily: It is not at all. Marriage still only allowed between two people.
Dedeker: Well, that's same logistics that everybody in a multi-partner relationship has to grapple with. Maybe not everybody, but certain people, of just that, that we're still in the world that's based on offering a lot of legal rights and privileges to the-
Emily: Married couple.
Dedeker: -singular state-sanctioned relationship, which is the monogamously married couple. Who knows how or if that's going to change necessarily? I doubt that that's going to change the tune of letting triads marry necessarily because I think from a legal logistical standpoint, it would just be too complicated.
Emily: You can create an LLC like we have.
Jase: That still doesn't get you anywhere near the rights.
Emily: It still doesn't get- You're absolutely correct, yes. That's a tough one.
Dedeker: I don't know, but we can also maybe hope and maybe push for just single people in general getting more access to these rights. Maybe we don't base this on needing to be in the state-sanctioned relationship, perhaps, but all those stuff down that anger for another day.
Yes, same thing connected to all that, child custody, often only granted to people. Again, we're seeing exceptions happen, some certain legal precedents being set in different countries and in different states and things like that, but that's still something to bear in mind that we definitely have seen some triads who raise kids together, either they have a child together or a third person who comes to the relationship becomes an adoptive parent in some way, at least functionally. We're still having to fight that battle and try to figure out how do we make parenting work outside of just the dyad?
Jase: That's definitely something to go and talk to legal counsel about like we had Diana Adams on the show a long time ago. Her website has a lot of resources for that as well, free resources as well. Definitely is something to look into what are your legal options based on where you live and things like that because it's real complicated. Can't deny that.
Emily: Absolutely. Finally, just general power dynamics. Dedeker is always the alpha so there is the power dynamic- No. Just in general, yes, what-- I think it's even more complicated potentially if there is an established couple bringing a third in and the power dynamics that are just inherently there.
Dedeker: Well, I think what I'm seeing more and more of as polyamory and non-monogamy is starting to creep into the mainstream a little bit more, and especially couples who are thinking of opening up and thinking about triads or finding a unicorn or something like that are starting to read more of the material, get more savvy to the fact that unicorn hunter is derogatory term, there's all these bad behaviors that you want to avoid.
Unfortunately, I think that lulls a lot of people into this false sense of security of, "Oh, no, no, no, we'd be really good to this third person." Of course, we want them to have an equal share in the relationship. "No, we'd be really, really nice to them and be really respectful of them and make sure everything is consensual." You can be really nice and really respectful to a person and there can still be a power dynamic-
Emily: Absolutely.
Dedeker: - that's making it difficult to actually consent fully and making it difficult for them to be a full equal decision-maker about what goes on in the relationship. That's all. I've definitely seen this start to play out among people, among couples who think that they're just they are being super respectful and doing everything nice, but still not cognizant of the fact that there's a power differential when it comes to money or establishment or out-ness or work or things like that. Y'all just check yourself before you wreck yourself when it comes to what power dynamics may potentially be in your relationships.
Jase: Yeah. Okay. We're gonna go on and record a bonus episode, where we're going to talk a little bit more about this field of triad research in sociology. If you are a Patreon, we would love for you to join us for that conversation because we're going to do some good nerding out. Also, we're trying something new on the day that this episode comes out, we're doing a poll on our Instagram because we want to know what experience our listeners, all of you, have had with triads.