333 - Multiamory Stories: Kori Nicole Williams (Finding Family in Relationship Anarchy)

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Queerness, relationship anarchy, and Christianity

During this episode, Kori Nicole Williams, author of Finding Family in Relationship Anarchy, discusses her experience growing up as a devout Christian, attending Catholic college, and reconciling her queer identity with her faith, as well as her thoughts and experiences with relationship anarchy and polyamory. Listen to her conversation with Dedeker to get her full story on this week’s Multiamory Story.

Find more of Kori at her website, www.korinicolewilliams.com, or on Twitter and Instagram at @korinicolew.

Transcript

This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.

Dedeker: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're diving into another Multiamory story. For this episode, I had a conversation with Kori Nicole Williams. The reason I found Kori is because for years, I've had a Google search alert set up for the term relationship anarchy. The reason for this is there's not a lot of direct or official resources for relationship anarchy. I think a lot of people stumble into this term. Maybe some people are familiar with the relationship anarchy manifesto, but the term itself and the concept I find really shifts and changes and is interpreted differently by very different people. I set up the search alert, because I've always been curious to track how the conversation is shifting and moving as more people write and create content about this concept.

I came across Kori's article on Mindbodygreen titled. As a queer person, relationship anarchy helped me create the family I need. Kori is a very talented writer and I highly recommend that you go Google that title, go check out her piece. Kori Nicole Williams is a freelance writer who graduated from St. John's University. She strives to use her voice to support and uplift others but she also loves Marvel movies and writing about entertainment news. Her work has been published at 17, Distractify, Mindbodygreen, and elsewhere. Kori and I had a wonderful conversation where we talked about relationship anarchy, queerness, mental health, Christianity, and so much more. I hope you enjoy it. Can you recall some of the earliest messaging and lessons that you received about romantic relationships and sexual relationships?

Kori: I don't even think in terms of romantic that I had a message really. Not directly told to me just because I think it was just assumed how certain things would go. I think there's a lot of assumptions of I'll end up with a man and have kids with said man and grow old with these kids and this man and that is not really how it ended up working out. If anything, one message I know I had for sure was that I was to be abstinent growing up, no sex before marriage, that whole thing. I grew up in a Christian household. That was just not something that we did. It was never like forced on me but whenever there's someone on TV talking about it she's like, "Kori, come look." that kind of thing.

Which is funny though because I actually chose abstinence on my own outside of any of that. This was something I chose. Then when I was older, I made different choices, but that was something I suppose, at a young age, I never really understood why I was supposed to when I was already here but okay.

Dedeker: That's so interesting because I also grew up in a Christian household, very strong purity messaging, very strong abstinence messaging. That's interesting that you indicate that this is actually something that I chose for myself separate from being pushed into that. Can you remember your thinking around that at that age?

Kori: I was just I don't want to say devoutly religious, because I don't know how devout you can be at like 13. I was just concerned with my relationship with the Lord, how me and Jesus were going to get on, how we were going to be homie at that age. I felt like one of those things was waiting until marriage, being what I thought Jesus would've wanted me to be. Then part of that was me being abstinent until marriage. It was something where I was at an age or going into my teenage years, everyone was talking about having sex, or doing something of a sexual nature, or whatever the case may be. I was like, that sounds like a lot. I don't want to do all of that anyway. It's easier. This life is simpler this way and frankly, that's true for me at least it was awesome not having to deal with all of that.

Dedeker: For you, it felt like a little bit more of an empowered choice that you made on your own rather than something that was just forced on you?

Kori: Yes, it was definitely like a choice that I made and I was proud of it and I let everybody knew, not everybody, but people knew. I wasn't afraid to talk about it. It wasn't something that I was too personal or scared to talk about.

Dedeker: Wow. You were even shouting it to the rafters as well?

Kori: Yes.

Dedeker: When did that start to shift for you?

Kori: I went to Catholic school.

Dedeker: Oh, boy.

Kori: I went to a Catholic college and whilst I was there-- At least at the school I went to, we were supposed to take three theology classes. At least at the time, this was like five, six years ago. Three theology and three philosophy classes. You could take whatever classes you want, as long as they fit that criteria of class. I ended up taking a few different classes and a lot of the professors either were Catholic or Christian or didn't really care too much for historical, or traditional, or other beliefs or they were like, "This is some bullshit. Here's what you need to know," whatever they said. I actually remember some philosophy course, the first day the professor was talking about Jesus being some fancy man in the sky and someone was so offended they just walked out and I was like, "Oh, okay."

Dedeker: Oh, no. Wow. You talked about certain professors being like, okay, this over here is bullshit. Here's what's the actually important thing. Do you have a specific example that you can recall of that that was influential to you?

Kori: I remember I took my only Saturday class 'cause I was like, "I wonder what they class on Saturday." Just in case you didn't know, it's some bullshit.

Dedeker: It's expected.

Kori: I think this was the only day of the week I could take the class in terms of my schedule. Anyway, I'm taking this Christian marriage course, and the professor, I believe he was a Catholic and I don't know if he still is or things change. I'm sure his beliefs have changed over the years and people saying how you grew up that way and now he's taught us essentially the history of marriage, what it meant to be married throughout the years, and all that stuff. He's basically saying about how the Bible just says that waiting until marriage is just a way for men to control women.

Something about that just did something to my spirit. It's like, wait a minute, wait. I feel like I knew but then when he said it, I was like, "Damn." Now I know, know. I can't deny that now because he's saying it and he has references for his thoughts and I was like, "Okay, damn." Now it's like I'm going on this journey of what do I really believe? How do I feel about what I believe? I had a boyfriend at the time too. I was waiting and he was only waiting because I was waiting. Not that he pressured me cause that's not what I'm saying but it was very much so I could be having sex right now. I could see what this is like. I could do a thing and discover what this aspect of life is. If I'm really interested, what really is stopping me? I just got more curious and after a while it was just, maybe this isn't the biblical wave I need to be on.

Dedeker: That's really amazing to me because when I think about my own upbringing, it wasn't Catholic but it was Evangelical Christian. To be presented with a concept like that about, "Hey, marriage has a history. It hasn't always been this thing. It always been this like spiritually divine, God bless thing. It does have this history and patriarchy and control of women." To get a message like that from a secular source would be so easy to be like, "Oh, yes, well it's a secular source. It's a secular professor. They're way too liberal. Of course they're going to say that," but to get that from an actual Catholic institution and a Catholic professor, I feel like that that would have, if I were in your position would have just like blown the doors off my reality, which it sounds like it did for you to a certain extent.

Kori: College really was, looking back, college really was like my whole life shifted in college. I can see why looking back now but at the time it was just like, "What do you mean that I can do all these things that I hadn't even thought of before." All these different aspects of life, especially because I grew up in a Chri-- The thing is, I think with my household growing up, we weren't so devoutly Christian that we couldn't watch TV or things like that. It wasn't such an extreme environment but it was just be aware that God loves you and you follow teachings and things like that. You can live your best life in heaven, that kind of thing. I think as I grew up like I said, it just shifted until like, I still believe in Christ. I just want to have this relationship but do I really want to have it like this? I think the more I questioned how I wanted to do it, the more I opened up to just living life a different way.

Dedeker: Your boyfriend that you had in college, did that feel like it was a serious definitely going to get married relationship, especially since the two of you were deciding we're going to wait?

Kori: That was definitely the plan I think at one time and I think that's part of the reason we broke up is because I was so scared to get married. I didn't know if that was the best idea. Frankly, for me, it wasn't. We went to a small high school so everyone knew us. I knew everyone. Everyone knew all of our business. It was just like everyone, in a way was like, "Oh, so you're going to get married, right?" I'm like, "Well, I don't know what that feels like or what that looks like." It became a thing. I felt like I almost lost who I was because the school was so small people were like, "Oh, where's Matthew?" Whenever it was just me. I'm like, "Well, he's not here. It's just me. I'm sorry if that disappoints that it's just me here."

Everything that I did had to be with him, or if it wasn't going to happen, or I couldn't do it. It became a thing where I was always checking in with him to see what he was doing, and what I was doing. We were always so together and I felt like I wasn't being myself all the time. On top of that, I was being in college and you're seeing people doing different things that you didn't grow up seeing. Some people are being openly queer, openly gay. I'm just like, "Well, what if I want to do these things? I can't do these things in a relationship."

I was like, I wonder if I really am gay. I was very much into questioning my sexuality at that time. It was just like, this just really isn't conducive to the growth I think I should have. Me being with him always felt like I had to get married because of people's expectations of us but then I knew that that may not be the best idea because I have all this stuff growth I had to do and I felt like I couldn't do it with him at that time.

Dedeker: I think it's especially hard what you're speaking too because I do think in a lot of the Christian tradition, we are trained to look at relationships as you become one unit. That's literally biblical. You become this one person, you become one flesh. From a very, very early age and a very early time and sometimes in very inappropriate relationships it's like you're encouraged to have that hive mind where we just come as a unit, way of relating to the world, which as you said, really isn't conducive when you still have a lot of self-discovery to do.

Kori: Yes, especially being so young. I was 20-something we were together from when I was 17 to when I was 21, 22, I believe. Those are those years and I'm in college trying to figure out my life. Being committed to the one person for the rest of my life just really didn't seem the older I got like it made sense.

Dedeker: Was it scary to leave that relationship or did it feel liberating?

Kori: I think it was a bit of both. I think it was scary because I felt like not only was I disappointing people that I cared about because people I knew were really rooting for us and our families all knew each other and all of that. But it was also not liberating in the sense that I'm finally free but more this sense of, I can see what my life could be. I could see what could be moving forward and that was when I entered my first polyamorous relationship. I was just doing gay shit. That was fun.

Dedeker: I'm curious to rewind the tape there a little bit because you talked about, there were these influences around you where you could observe and you could see what your life could be. I'm curious, what were the things that you were saying that you feel like were the most influential? Were there particular people or particular scenes or particular communities or particular events? What do you think was influencing that most to start thinking about the ways that your life could be different?

Kori: I think that even though I went to a Catholic school, there was a lot of queer, there's a lot of trans people, a lot of people openly doing and experiencing and being these things and these people. I don't think in the moment of like, "Oh my gosh, I can do this too," but more so it was just like that if I like or if I'm attracted to this person, I can see where that goes just like so and so was doing.

A lot of my friends in college and even people I'm cool with now from college are non-binary or somewhere into transgender experience. A lot of people are bi or pansexual. A lot of people have done things just to see how they felt about it just to experiment and see how they felt. That was something that I was just constantly around that I think that when people indirectly give you the okay to do things, you just feel like you can do them too. I feel like growing up too I felt like I gradually opened up my mind to the idea of being with a woman or just another gender in general. Before I even knew what being transgender was, growing up and seeing other girls, seeing women I thought were attractive, was something I always experienced, but it was like, but that's just because other women are beautiful. I can't be bi, because I don't want with a woman anyway and like, well, they just look nice.

All those things you say before you realize actually wait, I'm actually bisexual. Yes, I said all those things and I was really concerned with how much experience is enough to be considered bisexual. There was definitely a point where I was like, "Well, I can't claim the identity if I've never done certain things," because I knew from a young age that bisexual people got a bad rap and it was just like, "Well, I wouldn't want to add to that stigma. Let me just chill out and see how I feel before I just say words out loud."

Dedeker: How did that go? Then what was that like? Was it then it's like, "Okay, now I got to go out and get a bunch of experience under my belt."

Kori: No, because I was still awkward. I was still very awkward. I couldn't do anything anyway. How am I going to get in this? How am I going to experience these things versus the idea? I feel like a lot of people were just like, "If you haven't dated a girl then you can't say that you're bi." It's like, "Okay, but what girl would even want to go out with me?" How do you even meet people to do gay things with? I don't even know how that works.

At the time, it was just like, "Well, I'm just going to be here in the back quiet, not expressing anything because I don't want to be that person." After I broke up with my ex-boyfriend, I realized that I might want to do gay things on purpose. I got to put myself in spaces where there are other people who might be attracted to me. I actively sought out dating apps and stuff. We've all been on Tinder.

Dedeker: Fortunately, unfortunately.

Kori: Oh, my God, it's so bad. We've all been through those things and been on Facebook groups and because I had met certain people, I was just becoming friends with people who were transgender, or who were just living life differently than myself. It was really just eye-opening to see people be happy doing all these things that I grew up not knowing you could do. It wasn't like we were talking about being gay is horrible or being transgender is this horrible thing.

We just never talked about it growing up. I never knew until I was in school and seeing those things. I didn't grow up with the stigma which I think was good. My family's always been very accepting but it just wasn't talked about so I was like, "Well, I don't know anything bad about these people. In my head, they're just people doing other things." I think that was one of the things where I could say like, I didn't have any preconceived notions growing up and meeting these people. It was just like it was what it was.

Dedeker: Did things turn out super great on Tinder?

Kori: I've met some great people on Tinder that I'm friends with. No, pause. That's a lie. I did meet someone I dated on Tinder and we dated for a few months. Then I met one of my closest friends on Tinder we're still cool to this day. This was like what? Oh my god, how many years ago, like six years ago. Everything else was trash but people just want to have sex. I want to say that overall, it was a positive experience because I did meet people who helped shaped the way that I viewed things in terms of polyamory and being around different kinds of people. Other than that, it was trash, mostly trash.

Dedeker: I think not a lot of people would disagree with that assessment. Mostly trash. Do you still identify with the label of bisexual now?

Kori: I use the word now. I have no issue being called bi. There's nothing wrong with it for me personally. It fits me and it's the first word that I ever used to express my sexuality in that way. I have a little soft spot in my heart for being bisexual. I also acknowledge now that I am attracted to people regardless of gender. I think I definitely have a preference towards women but I'm attracted to people regardless. I don't really use a label unless people ask for a word then I'll say pansexual, usually, but then it's like not everyone knows what that is. Even if I do say that I don't want to be labeled or I don't really care for a label it's like, "Oh, but that sounds like you're bi." It's easier sometimes just to say that I'm bisexual.

Dedeker: It is interesting, what you brought up earlier about feeling like we need to almost have a particular resume or particular amount of experience to be able to claim a particular label.

Kori: The number of times I've been asked, honestly, only by men, "So what do you like more?" If I pick one or the other-- When I was younger, in college, and they asked that question, I would pick one and they would say, "Oh, so that means you must be straight," or, "You're just gay," or whatever. I'm like, "I don't think that's how it works. I'm not sure but I don't think that's how it works." That was always a thing too. Now that I'm older, I just don't even answer that question but at the time it was well, I guess if I had to pick one. I don't have to pick one.

Dedeker: You're right. That is a weird question to ask someone that you don't know very well.

Kori: Honestly, in my experience, it's just men that I don't know or men that don't know me very well. It's always these gender men who ask, "Which one do you like more? Do you still like guys? Have you ever had a threesome?" Those are the three questions from guys who I don't know. If I've known a man for a long time, and I come out to him and we're friendly and we're cool, it's never those questions. Only a man I don't know, from the next day.

Dedeker: That's so interesting. It's like the agenda is really clear with those three questions.

Kori: Yes, exactly.

Dedeker: You've mentioned this kind of being a transitional period where you also got into non-traditional or non-monogamous relationships. What was that journey like for you?

Kori: One of the people I met on Tinder, they ended up telling me that they are polyamorous. At the time, at the very beginning of whatever this was, I was like, "Well, I don't really care because it's not like we're going to get married tomorrow. I don't know anything about being polyamorous so why not just see where things go." It was just a very chill, it was just a very-- We were just together and they were with other people. I could date whoever I wanted. As long as we were communicative, and as long as we were-- I don't want to say ask them permission, that sounds nasty but being clear with, "Hey, I could want to have sex with so and so. Letting you know, protection, whatever. If that's okay with you."

Not permission, but because with the person it wasn't like they would say no unless it felt dangerous but just being aware, I guess it's what I'm trying to say. Being aware of like saying, "Hey, I want to do a thing with so and so. Letting you know beforehand because I don't want it to be weird. I don't want you to find out from somebody else that I did something." I realized, especially in that relationship, that I'm not a very jealous person at all. I rarely ever, ever feel jealous about anything. I realized like if I-- I do have my moments though when I am jealous, it's very easy for me to say, why this is bothering you for this particular reason.

It's very easy for me to say, "Why do you feel this way?" Once I figure out why it's like I can go to the person and say, "I feel X, Y, Z because of X, Y, Z." Hopefully, we can work through it. I realized that was very important to me because I've always been a very not free spirit but I guess a free spirit. I do what I feel like, I guess, within reason. I feel like that was one of those things too when my ex was like, "As long as we're clear about things, we can talk about things. As long as you're being safe, do what you feel like." It's like, really? Okay. I guess. It was strange in the sense of I've never had that kind of freedom before considering that my last relationship was so serious and so monogamously stereotypical but it was interesting. I dated other people but it felt like it was easy. I feel like other people may have looked at it and been like, "What are you doing?" I didn't feel weird about it. I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. We were open about it. We were talking about it. That's what was important.

Dedeker: It sounds like you had a pretty chill and natural first experience with non-monogamy which, in my experience, working with so many clients and hearing so many people's stories, often people have the opposite. Often they're dragged into non-monogamy kicking and screaming, or with a lot of drama, or a lot of miscommunication, but it seems like it was really natural fit at the time.

Kori: Yes, it's something I would do again with the right people. I realized that looking back, you really have to do this with-- Any kind of relationship with the right people but in terms of being polyamorous, I feel like a lot of people have these ideas on what it should or shouldn't be, or what they see in movies or whatever, or it being some weird love triangle situation. That's definitely not what I was going to be a part of. If anything, the only weird parts about it was the questions I would get from my friends who were like, "Which one do you like more?" Or, "Why do you like this?" Or, "Why would you do that?" All those questions I would get but mind your business.

Dedeker: Had you ever questioned monogamy or a traditional relationship structure up to this point or was this particular relationship the first time for that?

Kori: It was definitely the first time. Being in this relationship was the first time that I even considered doing anything else. I didn't even think, I think before this, that I couldn't do anything else. I realized for myself too, that I'm the kind of person who I don't really see it happening for myself until I can see someone else has done it. Looking back, I've been the kind of person like, I don't think I can do this but then if someone else does it, it's like, "Well, why can't I?"

I had never really even seen a healthy polyamorous thing. I think the closest thing that I had gotten to people being as healthy as you could be before this was people talking about how I guess if you cheat and your partner doesn't know, is it really a problem? Those kinds of things before this. This relationship was the first time where I knew that we could all just be on the same page and everything's okay. I ended up meeting their other partners at the time. It was just a very positive experience, my first polyamorous situation.

Dedeker: I'm curious, what led you eventually into discovering the concept of relationship anarchy?

Kori: A lot of stuff happened in college.

Dedeker: I'm gathering.

Kori: Looking back, a lot of it was in college. Shout out to my school. I realized it was weird for me because I'm learning all these things about all these kinds of people who do all these kinds of things and I had never said any of those things. It was just like I was at a weird spot because I had been very suicidal years before at the time, on and off, about my life. At that time I was very suicidal. I would always tell family and stuff, I hate my life, I hate things here, or whatever I would say. I would try and be open and honest with people that I was close to but it was always well, you have things, you have your health, you're not unwell, you have a roof over your head. What exactly is it that you have to be so depressed about?

I couldn't formulate the words at the time but looking back or getting older and being in college and being able to say, well, it wasn't about any external thing that I hated. The external things were great. I had friends who I was cool with. My family's always been good to me. It didn't really have a lot of issues when it came to external things but internally, I just felt worthless. I felt like nothing I did was worth the effort. I didn't matter. People loved me but that was just convenient because I was around. Things like that, that you say when you don't like yourself. A lot of stuff like that.

I think growing up with that for so long, and then being like, I tried to reach out to these people who I'm close to. My family was rough on me because-- Not rough on me but they were like, why? You're depressed but why? They didn't understand. I think, especially for my mom who's always been such a strong person in my life. For her it was like, I don't understand. I want to understand but what are you talking about? Going into college and making lifelong friends. We've been friends for so many years and they've always been so accepting. No one questions me. No one was trying to deeply analyze my feelings. I said what I said and it made sense to them for whatever reason and that was it.

I think a lot of that too is having to justify my feelings even with friends I had when I was in middle school or high school, it was like, "But you look so happy." "Okay, but I'm not so what do you mean?" I always felt like I had to prove myself to these people. I don't want to have to keep proving myself to everybody except what I had to say because I said it. This is my experience, but that was never good enough for people, for whatever reason, especially these kids in middle school. Oh my God. Yes, rough. I met these kids in college and it was just wow.

The first person I came out to was actually the first mentor to I'm going to his wedding. I was finally around people who didn't really care about me having to prove myself. Around people who even have the same culture as me growing up. My family's from the Caribbean. Who has the same cultural understanding that I had so knew the background that my family came from but still understood from my point of view, I still felt the way that I did and that's valid. It was just so like a weight off of whatever shoulders. It was such like I can breathe. It was so refreshing.

I love my family everyone's cool over there, okay sure, but I really put in all my emotional effort to be told that what I experienced wasn't real, that sounds fake. I can't do that. With me and my friends, it was just like, I love these people. These people are like a family to me. Regardless of where we've moved to at this point, we're like a family. This was before I realized the concept of a chosen family but at the time it was awakening and unraveling that ideal relationship anarchy where it was, well, I can choose a family. I can have a family that I'm connected to you by blood and that's great, sure whatever, but I could also choose people on purpose who mean something to me and have those relationships mean just as much as my family. That was so like refreshing, that was so cathartic to whatever my little depressed self was feeling at the time.

Dedeker: It's almost like this difference between your blood family. These are the collection of people who technically biologically gave you life, brought you into life. Then, if you find this chosen family of the people who are like actually actively giving you your life and saving your life, especially if you're in a depressive state. It's fascinating. We're going to take a quick break from our interview to talk about the best ways that you can support this show so that we can keep bringing stories like this to you for free. My question for you because I think the concept of relationship, I guess probably quite appropriately, there has yet to be a single defining voice for relationship anarchy. There's yet to be a single defining book, or a single person, or content creator, or whoever who's really leading the charge on defining this concept. Conceptually, I find that it really shifts and changes. It depends on the person. How do you even define relationship anarchy?

Kori: No one type of relationship is more important than another type of relationship. If I'm related to someone, they're not automatically important just because we share the same bloodline versus someone I've been friends with for a couple of weeks. If I'm cool with that person, we're cool, if not, we're not but that doesn't make it special or that doesn't make it more important just because I'm related to them. The same thing also counts for romantic internships. I feel like a lot of people put their romantic relationships, whether they be polyamorous or monogamous on the pedestal of, this is the most important person in my life. I'm like, "Okay, sure." Maybe if you're married and you have kids and finances and all that together, then that definitely makes sense.

I don't have any of that so I don't know what that looks like but for me, my partners have never been more important than my friends just because I was romantically attached to them. I've always been the person to say my friends are just as important, if not more because I don't know if I like you all the time, romantic person.

Dedeker: Can relate.

Kori: I put all of my friends and all my relationships on the same pedestal but it just depends how close they are in a way. Things that person chip in my life.

Dedeker: On a day to day practical basis, how do you think that this concept has changed the way that you interact with your family, or your friends, or your partners? Does it change the way that you communicate? Does it change the way that you plan? How does it look on a day-to-day basis?

Kori: Well, I'm not in a relationship right now but when I was it was always very much. If I was seeing someone and it was a consistent serious relationship then by default all my weekends would go to that one as a person just because how often would I get to see them. By default, that would typically be a thing. Once a week, we can see each other but let's say like a friend of mine made plans look actually, romantic person, we didn't really make plans. I just gave you the day.

My friend wants to do something this weekend. I'm going to go out with them and I'll see you when I see you. I think a lot of people assume that just because I'm dating someone or just I have romantic feelings towards someone that they always come first and a lot of my friends are like that. I've had issues with friends who are like that and it just has never made sense for me personally. I think that just like scheduling my time along people who I really care about to be in my personal space on a regular basis has changed. I also don't think I've never not done that. I feel like I've always been a version of this person. Now, we're talking to how I feel and this makes sense for me because this is what I've chosen actively.

Dedeker: Other question for you, because this is one that I think always throws people for a loop and this is a concept that I'm really intrigued by, do you think that someone can actively choose a monogamous romantic relationship but still be a relationship anarchist?

Kori: Yes, I think I've done it. I think that people in monogamous relationships sometimes can feel, or the stereotype is that you're the best thing to ever happen to them. You're this person's everything. That anything else happens, they're always there for you, or anything that happens, they'll always be the number one and frankly, that's just not realistic. Especially, when you have had friends for years. I've had friends for years where I would do anything for and you just happen to meet the love of your life tomorrow. That's wonderful. Meet the love of your life but also understand they're not more important just because you have romantic feelings. Romantic feelings are not the end all be all just because you want to kiss them at night. You know what I mean?

Talking to your partner and saying like, "Hey, I love you but the love I have for you, isn't more important than the love I have for my friends. Isn't more important than the love I have for my family. Just letting people know that that's how you feel and making sure that they're open to that idea. I think a lot of people do look for a romantic relationship to be their everything all the time and no one else matters and that's just not how I see things. I feel like if I love you, I love you, but you also have to understand that with me I have amazing people in my life already. If you want to add to the amazing people in my life then be my guest, come through. Let's do everything together but at the same time, you're not replacing anybody. You're not more important than anybody else, unless we really decided to like come together and like build a family. Then I guess we can reevaluate that as time happens. People aren't more important just because we do a certain thing with them that you wouldn't do with anyone else.

Dedeker: What was it that drew you to first start speaking in writing about these things more publicly?

Kori: Ever since I came out as bisexual, I need to use my voice. I need to say the thing for people who may not have a voice while I do intersect into a few different minority groups. I have so much privilege and I have so much. I'm so blessed to have the life that I have. If I can help the next person express how they feel, I'm going to do that too. I remember 2018, I wrote about what it's like for people who are Caribbean and queer for a different publication. My family is going to make-- I've never had those kinds of experiences. Some people have told me that they wanted to kill themselves. One person in particular, who told me that he told his brother like, listen, if I end up being gay, just kill me because he knew that going back home to the country that he was from, it just would not be accepted. Things like that.

I also like to learn about people. Just people's experiences are just so fascinating. Why would you not want to know? If they're going to let what's going on with them, then take all the information you can. Learn from people. I think that's so interesting. Also when you allow people into your mindset it allows them to say like, "Hey, I'm not alone. It's not just here in the void. Other people have my experiences." I think that's really important too. A lot of people feel like they're alone just because they don't have anyone else to speak to or nothing else to compare to. I think it's really important to give people that space where you can say like, "Hey, it's not just you, it's me too." I also struggle with whatever it is.

Dedeker: There's such incredible power in that message of you're not alone. That's what has partly motivated me to do this particular little spinoff series is just that. Is that there's so much power in just someone sharing their story. There's always someone who can relate. There's always someone who can speak up. There's always someone who sees a little bit of themselves in the story that you share and that's such an important ripple effect that can change so many things. That actually leads me to, I want to back up a little bit because I am curious to hear about your coming out process and what that journey was like for you. If coming out for you was just about sexuality, was it also about relationship anarchy?

Kori: I don't think I necessarily came out in terms of relationship anarchy. I just wanted to act the way I wanted to act and if you didn't like it, then okay. Don't like it. When I came out, I only come up to my mom, per se. I feel like coming out is complicated but the only person I feel as though I truly went out of my way to come out to is my mom. I felt like she deserved to know, living under her roof, but I also feel like no one else mattered. My siblings are 42, they wouldn't care either way. No one else in my life deserves the energy and deserves the emotional, deep sty that it is to come out in such a big way.

I told the polyamorous person I was dating at the time, I was like, "Listen." I think I said this to them but also just to myself, like, "Listen, if you fall in love with this person who is not a cis man. Tell your mom that you're gay, okay? Because she should know, just say it one time for the one time and move on." I ended up catching all these soft feelings at the time for this person but I felt like I loved them like that. I was like, "Okay, I got to and say the words to my mom." It's funny because the day that I did decide to come out, my friend came over and she's a woman. I think my mom knew that I was going to say something. I wanted to say something else beforehand and I didn't leave so she's like, "Is there anything else you want to say?" I'm like, "So hey, mom." She's like, "Is that your girlfriend?" "No, it's not my girlfriend we're just friends. She's not my girlfriend we are just friends but I do want to say, I'm pansexual." She was like, "What does that mean?" I tell her, pretty much that it means that I'm attracted to people of all gender. I don't really feel like I'm just limited to cisgender men and she hit me with a, "But there's only two genders." Then I was like, "You know what? That's a conversation for another day but we'll talk about being transgender and what the spectrum is like, all day long. Not today."

Dedeker: Good boundaries around your energy. Good job protecting yourself there.

Kori: Something was like just say that just say it quick so you don't have to go into this whole explanation. Thank you. Yes, I didn't realize how important that was until after I said it. I was like, "Damn, okay." I'm like, "This was a conversation for another day." When I said, she was like, "Okay, well, I've always known." I said, "Why is that?" She's like, "Well, yes, that's fine. Do whatever you want." I remember, eventually, I ended up asking her, can I bring potential partners or dates over? She was like, "Yes, whatever you want."

Dedeker: Nice.

Kori: She was straight about it. It was a lot better than I thought it could have been. When you're in that doomsday mindset, where everything is, it's either fate or you're going to die. That was where I was with the whole thing. It was really, really good. I also feel like coming out is such a complicated thing, especially when you're not a lesbian or if you're not attracted to one gender. It's always like, you always have to come out because then it's, in a way, because they'll see you with a guy and it's like, "Oh, my God, is she's straight?" that's not true. If they see you with someone who's a woman, it's well, I'm not a lesbian either. I get that a lot, people think I'm a lesbian. I wish lesbians that I was a lesbian but whatever.

Dedeker: It's like this protracted process coming out, is this slow process, a constant process, many, many conversations had with many people multiple times. That is interesting that you speak to that, that when you're pansexual or some sexuality that's beyond just a particular binary, you set yourself up for this multiple coming out process because of that. Because it's like people see you with a woman and assume, "Oh, okay, she's finally settled on something." Then you have to have another conversation.

Kori: Yes, it's strange. Now that I'm dating again, it's weird because people won't date people who are bisexual for whatever reason so that's interesting now. I don't mind. If you don't want me I don't need to be wanted by anyone. If that's not what you want them to want me. It's interesting to see people in their bios or whatever it is, no this, no that, no bisexuals. Pick what you want. I'm like, okay. Bye. My God.

Dedeker: Well, outside of the experience on dating apps, do you think that people of your generation are more accepting in general of non-traditional ways of relating or things like relationship anarchy?

Kori: I think relationship anarchy, for sure is one of those that people are, at least when I explain it like, "Oh, that makes sense. I can see how that makes sense." because a lot of people I know too also have issues with their family and they just haven't had the space to talk about how their family has done whatever it is to them to make them feel a certain kind of way but they have to honor their parents or honor their relationship because that's their parents. I think for a lot of people who've grown up in a household where the parents' word was law and then now growing up and realizing that they can forge their own path and set the boundaries that they want with their own relationships ir's really important for them and they're acknowledging that. Other aspects of my life, I don't really think so just in terms of-- For me, being bisexual, I still get a lot of the same questions, it doesn't matter how old the person is. "Which one do you like more?" or "How can you do that?" or all these things. Relationship anarchy I think it's an easier pill for someone to swallow once they see how I explain it.

Dedeker: Did you, as a part of all of this, did you go through a deconversion process or do you still feel like you have ties to your religion and your religious upbringing now?

Kori: I think they'll always be a thing where it's like, "Oh, but what would Jesus say if He saw me doing the gay thing?" Oh, my God. That's something I still struggle with, honestly. Especially with religious beliefs, I still struggle with that. It's like, "but what if he doesn't love me anymore because I'm doing gay things?" Then it's, does that matter? Does that really matter to you? A lot of people will have their religious beliefs based on their personal experience with the Lord, or they'll have things that the Bible say and they don't restrict to the book, which is your business.

Obviously, I don't really care much for doing things exactly by the Bible's pages and all of that but I still try and have that relationship, that connection. I don't feel like when I was made there were any mistakes, that I am just how I was supposed to be. I also have to add another intersection to my life. I also have cerebral palsy, that's something you're born with. It's something you can't not have if you have it, it's there. I think the whole thing of even saying that I was a mistake or in a way, or that I did do something wrong, implies that God was wrong and that doesn't work for me. It is what it is, this is just who I am.

Dedeker: With your religious background now, what are the things that you find are actually really supportive and encouraging for you?

Kori: That's one thing about a person I previously dated, who is also religious but is of trans experience that was something we really connected on was that we are religious but we also have this experience that we want to live and we have this way of life that we embrace, regardless of what religious texts say. I've always tried to pray or just be aware of the Lord's presence or just being a good person doing things that I think would be expected of me as a Christian. Helping other people out when I can, being there for people when I can, things like that, I think are most important.

Dedeker: A couple of years ago, on the show, we did an interview with another person who identified as a queer Christian and actually wrote a lot of resources and created a lot of content around that. It was a really, really cool episode, really enjoyed talking about queer Christianity and things like that. I was surprised that we actually got a very polarized response to that episode. It was either people who were just like, "Oh my God, I'm so glad that you covered this topic. I still identify as Christian and I'm so glad to see myself represented in this way." Or it was people who were very, very resistant. I can't believe that you would even support Christianity. I don't understand how that you can justify being queer Christian and stuff like that. I'm curious to know what you would say to the people who hold that really, really deep sense of aversion to the idea of even trying to rectify being queer and being Christian at the same time.

Kori: For the religious people who are against just the whole aspect of being queer, for those people, I can't speak to because you want to believe what you want to believe and that's fine.

Dedeker: I don't think any of those people listen to our podcast anyway.

Kori: Okay, but for the other side of things, I just feel like my relationship with Christ is really no one else's business. I've been through a lot already on my own, I don't need anybody else coming over here and saying anything else. If you would like to have a constructive conversation, we can definitely do that. I'm totally open to being told that I am missing the mark, or I'm doing this wrong in your opinion, or whatever. To come through and just be negative for the sake of being negative, like bashing my religious beliefs because you don't agree what does that do for us? What does that do for you that you want to come through and be so negative? Get out. Eat something. Do something else.

Dedeker: I like that as a response to just people who are being crabby in general, just tell them to eat something.

Kori: I eat like it's a hobby. It's a good time.

Dedeker: What are the things that you hope for the queer community in the future?

Kori: I hope that the queer community can just embrace itself, embrace each other, embrace the different aspects of the community. I've seen a lot of just negative things from people in the community towards other people in the community, whether it'd be through dating and stuff or whether it'd be through experiences other people have told me about. I just hope that we can all just be more accepting of one another. For dating, for example, it'll be like, I read some profiles and it was a lesbian who is talking about how she is a stud, or more masculine. She said, she doesn't date other masculine lesbians, because that's too gay. I'm like, "What does that mean? We're all gay." That's the whole point. Things like that.

I have an ex who has spoken about, they are non-binary but going into queer spaces where you would think that it would be more accepting are not. Even if the other person is transgender, and they preach about, let's say, like using correct pronouns, my ex would still constantly get misgendered on a regular basis, by the same people who are claiming that they were so inclusive. It's just, make it make sense. That's something I really want to change for sure is just being more accepting and open-minded, getting rid of all these heteronormative ideas of what we should and shouldn't be. Just because we grew up in that space, it doesn't mean we have to have those same ideas and opinions in a slightly gateway. I want to see us have the equality we all deserve. I think a lot of people want to do a lot of things but there's still so many legal loopholes or legal caveats to what gives us the same rights as straight people and I want to see us just be happy. I think we all just deserve that.

Dedeker: Lastly, do you have any advice that you would give to any budding relationship anarchists or anyone who's intrigued by the concept?

Kori: I really think that it's just important to evaluate your relationships outside of the bonds you have. I think a lot of people get caught up in like, "Well, this is my family, or we've been friends for 15 years, or I've known this person since I was a baby." I think a lot of times the emotional bond we have with people gets in the way of objectively looking at the relationship and saying like, should I still hang out with this? Should I still be around this person? I know that's rough to cut people off when you've had this close bond. I think that's the basis of the whole thing.

What relationship anarchy is saying that I'm choosing this person. I'm not being forced to hang out or be around or whatever. I'm making the active choice to have this person in my life because of a certain reason that I feel supported. If you can look at the relationship and say, these are the positive aspects of the relationship that I like. These are some things that are not so great. Do I still want to keep this person in my life despite this not-so-great thing?

Everyone's going to have a thing where it's like, I don't like that but we're cool. Just talking about or even with yourself discussing, like, what exactly it is that you like about this person and why. If you can really have a deep understanding of what that looks for you, what that means for you, and who this person is in your whole life and say like, "This is someone I'm keeping around because they value me, because I value them," then that's like the first step. Take the time to access because that's what will give you the power to say, you know what, maybe this isn't for me or maybe I need to make a different choice or maybe you're the best person I've ever met in my whole life. Maybe we're best friends on purpose. I think if anything, just evaluate every single relationship and see why you want them in your life.

Dedeker: Wonderful. I think that's a wonderful place to leave that on that note. Lastly, for all of our listeners, where can people go if they want to see more of your work in your writing?

Kori: I do have a website korinicolewilliams.com. That's where all my work things and all my professional stuff is. I have a Twitter, Korinicole.bo Instagram is the same thing. I think that's pretty much it.

Dedeker: Excellent. Well, Kori, thank you so so, so much for your time and thank you so much for sharing your story. This has been a really wonderful, fascinating conversation.

Kori: Thank you for having me. I'm so honored.