346 - Is Seeking a Third Ethical?
The elusive unicorn
Since our episode on ethical unicorn hunting, episode 109, we haven’t tackled the concept of seeking a third partner for an existing dyadic relationship. This episode is going to address some of the latest information about unicorn hunting/seeking a third.
“For the uninitiated, the term unicorn-hunting typically describes the practice of an established couple searching for a third partner to engage in either threesomes or triads (relationships between three people). Often, though not always, the couple is made up of a straight cisgender man and a queer (usually bisexual, pansexual, or omnisexual—bi+ for short) or bicurious cisgender woman, and they’re looking for a bi+ cisgender woman who is equally attracted to both of them and interested in whatever arrangement they had in mind. The joke is that the existence of such a woman is so elusive she may as well be a mythological creature.”
You’re a Couple Looking for a Third. I’m a Potential Unicorn. Let’s Talk
Why might a couple be seeking a third, especially when first opening up a monogamous relationship?
It may feel safer if both people in a newly opened relationship are dating the same person.
They think the third will care for them equally.
May feel easier to enact rules and prioritize the main couple.
May be easier to “jump ship” and abandon the third person if things go badly.
The promise of fulfillment of sexual fantasy.
Why might so many people in the polyamorous/non-monogamous community be opposed to unicorn hunting or believe it is unethical?
Underlying sexism and queerphobia and how often it leads to One Penis Policies.
Possible stipulations to only have sex with the couple, never just one person, and that a relationship with one person of the couple cannot be established independently of the dynamic.
The couple often has time to discuss things that may be happening in the group relationship without the unicorn present, which can lead to decisions being made without the unicorn’s knowledge.
If there are hurt feelings, the couple may be able to help each other through those feelings and leave the unicorn to have to deal with feelings on their own.
If/when the couple decides that this isn’t working out anymore, they can stay together and leave the unicorn and the group relationship.
If the couple includes a cisgender straight man and a cisgender bisexual woman, there is often a One Penis Policy rule where neither woman is allowed to have sex with another man, but the man is allowed to enjoy sex with both women. Such policies are linked to homophobia, sexism, and transphobia, since they dismiss the fact that there are genders aside from male and female, doesn’t take into account trans people, implies men without penises aren’t “real” men, and that women with penises aren’t “real” women.
Is it ever ethical?
Having a unicorn fantasy fulfilled by a sex worker is a possible solution. This article by a feminist sex worker explores hiring an independent sex worker specializing in women or couples to fulfill these fantasies. Additionally, there are many articles by women who say they enjoy being unicorns. If you’ve considered the controversies and still want to try seeking a third, here are some things that might be good to keep in mind:
Consider how couples privilege might show up in your relationship.
Consider if you’ve built a box that you are looking to fill or if you are giving yourself space to explore the possibilities.
Do a critical review of your dating profiles and assess if you are objectifying folks or potentially causing harm.
“If a couple is lucky enough to encounter a woman who wants to hook up with them, they should treat her like they fully appreciate the rare and magical being that she is. That means these couples should wine her, dine her, and pay for her transit and child care so she can hang out with them. The date’s pleasure should be the primary focus of sexual encounters, and she should absolutely orgasm first. Couples should meet wherever works best for the date—do not assume she will come to the couple’s place and then be happily dismissed when they are finished with her. If a hotel room is the best place for a hook-up, then the couple should pay for it.”
Dr. Eli Sheff
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we are once again asking the question, is it ever ethical to seek a third in a non-monogamous relationship? The last time that we did an episode about unicorn hunting was on our first tour in 2017. That's Episode 109, which just a thousands of years ago. Since then, the prospect of finding a third still comes up incredibly often in groups with newly non-monogamous couples. Today, we're going to be talking about some more information about unicorn hunting, finding a third, and trying to figure out if ethical unicorn hunting really even exists. Is that possible to do it ethically?
Dedeker: Something I think I've noticed between now and when we recorded that episode a billion years ago, is I think there's also been an explosion in media, and TV shows, and films that have portrayed triads or straight couples dating bisexual women and often framing it in a positive light, to be fair, not necessarily on digging on polyamory or on triads, but I think that's the thing that I've noticed that has changed, even in four or five years, or whatever it's been, is I think there's a lot more media, so that means there's a lot more exposure, so then I think there's a lot more seeds planted of that particular fantasy for people.
Emily: That's a really good point.
Jase: Yes. Well, it's interesting too, because I think that we've seen more images of this kind of stable, ongoing three-person relationship, stable-ish in TV shows. Again, not a ton, but we see them now and again, a lot more often than we used to, as opposed to the threesome hookup, which used to be, I think more what you would see if there were any kind of grouping of three on TV. It would be more like this fling for a summer vacation, or just a one-off thing or something, but we have seen this rise of shows showing these more ongoing relationships.
Emily: I remember this episode of Sex in the City, which was a while ago, it was in the early 2000s, where Samantha and her boyfriend had a third over for his 60th or 50th birthday or something. They really did treat her like shit. It was not cool. They kicked her out of the bed and eventually were like, "Get her out of here and all this stuff." Yes, I think about that. She was much younger than the couple. That was how they portrayed it and it was supposed to be funny at the time.
I look back at that now, and I'm like, "This isn't at all funny. This is really unfortunate and shitty for this person that was maybe hoping to have a fun time with two people and ended up just getting shafted completely."
Dedeker: This human being who's being used as a birthday gift?
Emily: Exactly, literally. Yes. Okay, I want to provide a little bit of context here. I had a friend recently who has been in a long-established marriage for a while asked me about finding a third. Immediately, I just had some red flags go off. I was like, "Oh, I don't even know where to start here." Because what do you do? Do you point this person to dating sites? Do you point them to meetup groups? Is it even ethical to send a person in that direction or what? I tried to figure out some of our past episodes and resources in that way, but it's tough. It made me want to do an episode on this again, for sure.
Dedeker: Yes, with your friends, it is that funny thing where when they ask these seemingly innocent questions about finding a third or getting into a triad or stuff like that, I think from our perspective, having witnessed so many train wrecks over the course of so many decades, it's so hard to tamp down that knee jerk response to be like, "Just don't. Don't. Just don't do it. Don't. Don't even make me explain why, just don't." That's what I always feel anyway.
Emily: Yes, I want to be kind to this person and stuff, but it's clear that still, this is so much the low-hanging fruit, I think, of a lot of people newly opening up their relationship or curious about what do we do? This is what I want, to find a person to come and join the relationship that I already have, sort of thing. As we said in the opening, a lot of the bigger polyamory Facebook groups out there, for instance, they do have people coming in and showing the picture of the man and the woman and saying like, "Hi, we would love to have somebody join our relationship, or we're looking for this type of person," or something along those lines. It's surprising to me that that's still out there so much.
Jase: Well, it's also, I think, a very hotly debated or very loaded topic because you'll have those situations where, like you just described, Emily, you'll have in some online groups, or some spaces, someone will come in and say something like that. You'll get this pile-on of everyone being like, "You're terrible, awful people to want that. You're horrible. That's really bad. You're terrible," which I don't think is a helpful response for people.
On the other hand, you'll get lots of people who are all like, "Yes, we're looking for that too. Oh, yes, we found that it's great. Yes, we're looking for that," kind of not taking the time to think about accountability and doing it responsibly and ethically, that it's, I feel like it's unfortunately rare to find interactions that do have that balance, I think, like you tried to strike with your friend, Emily, of, "Well, let me try to give you some resources."
I know you pointed him to our older episode about this and to some other places to say, "Here are some resources to try to learn a little more about what it is you're actually looking for and asking, and here's some places you might go to start meeting communities or dating apps that might facilitate this." You know what I mean? You're trying to strike that balance of, "I'm not going to tell you you're awful for wanting this, but I'm also not going to go, 'Yes, go ahead. Here's the ways to do it. It's great.' I want to try to strike that balance."
Emily: You provide some educational resources, perhaps.
Dedeker: Also what we're seeing now, I think the same way that we've seen terms like relationship anarchy, or non-hierarchy, for instance, really evolve in the way that they're used, where, for instance, if we take the term non-hierarchy or non-hierarchical, people who enter into the non-monogamous community, I think tend to pick up very quickly, "Oh, hierarchy equals bad. Non hierarchy equals good. Therefore, if I just left the label of non-hierarchy on what I'm doing, or what I'm wanting, then it'll solve all those problems."
I think the same thing has happened with the term unicorn hunting is now people who are starting to put themselves out there, trying to find a third, will probably learn very quickly that, "Oh, unicorn hunting equals bad. Therefore, if I don't call it unicorn hunting, or if I say, 'Not looking for a unicorn,' then it's going to be okay," which is, from a linguistic standpoint, fascinating to see how people react to language in this way.
Emily: Well, speaking of language, do you want to move on and tell us what the heck unicorn hunting is and give us a little definition here for those who don't know, maybe some of you out there have found this podcast, this episode and are like, "Oh, unicorn hunting? I've heard about that." Let's talk about what it is.
Dedeker: Yes. Sometimes people refer to it as looking for a third, finding a unicorn, or creating a triad. That is a little bit more on the fringes because there's other triads that form, I think organically outside of people unicorn hunting, but usually, it's the practice of an established couple. Usually a couple who's been together for a long time, maybe monogamously, maybe not, trying to find a third partner to engage in not just sexual encounters and not just threesomes, but often there's an implication that this is going to be ongoing as well. I'm not just looking for a threesome hookup, I'm looking for someone who's going to serve that role, be the third partner, and be essentially in an ongoing relationship.
The stereotype of the unicorn hunters, usually it's a straight cis man and then a woman, a cis woman who's bi or pansexual, or a bicurious cis woman. Usually, they're looking for a bi cisgender woman. The way that it gets turned into specifically the term unicorn is that often, the boxes to check are quite--
Jase: Extensive?
Dedeker: Extensive, yes. She has to be attracted equally to both of us. She has to be completely okay with whatever arrangement is that we want. Maybe she'll even disappear, but we don't want to have to explain her existence or maybe she'll move in with us, help us with child care, provide free labor of taking care of the house, things like that. That's the extreme image of what people expect a unicorn to be.
Jase: I would add the other kind of problematic one that tends to come up, is this expectation that she also would not be pursuing any other relationships besides the one with us. Even though we might live together and she doesn't live with us, or she does, but not when it's inconvenient or something like that. She gets the secondary status in this relationship, but also is expected that she won't pursue any other relationships. That's one of the ones that tends to come along. People don't usually say that right upfront, but that one often comes up as a point of contention.
Dedeker: Just to layer the extra levels of discomfort on top of it, often what's going on is, sometimes there's a one penis policy in play with the central couple, as in, yes, we can date a woman together, but we can't bring another man, things like that. As you can see, I think when people hear the term unicorn hunting, often it brings up just this very acrimonious, problematic, uncomfortable image, or at least it does for me. The term unicorn sometimes is used synonymously with hot bi babe or an HBB, as sometimes the kids call it on the internet, which is you considered-- I don't know. I've seen hot bi babe. I haven't seen--
Emily: Yes, that definitely.
Dedeker: Which to some people's considered derogatory or condescending. Some people embrace the term unicorn. We'll get into that a little bit later on. Some people who do want to serve this role for a couple are really into the term unicorn. It gets used in many different ways.
Jase: It's also worth noting here that the term unicorn hunting is generally never used by the people doing it. This is almost always a term that's used by other people to describe what they're doing in a--
Emily: Derogatory way?
Jase: Right. Just to say this, this thing you're doing is not good and we're calling it unicorn hunting. If you think about the terminology there, that hunting when we're thinking about having a relationship with someone else, the only other context that I can think of where people would use words like hunting would be potentially in pickup artist circles.
Emily: Like on the prowl or something. We're going out and hunting for ladies or something like that/
Jase: Right. In both cases, the connotation there is this predatory relationship and an objectification. We're not even thinking of this person as a human or a relationship, but we're just hunting for something. When people talk about unicorn hunting, that's what they're implying about what people are doing. As we'll talk about it in this episode, a lot of people have good reason to feel that way.
I just want to clarify that I know that we started the episode saying, "Is it possible to ethically unicorn hunt or whatever?" I think in reality, if you were doing something ethically and seeking this out, it wouldn't be unicorn hunting. We got ourselves trapped in a little circular contradiction there. All right. This might seem some basic 101 level stuff, but to start out, here are some of the reasons why people tend to go for this when they're first opening up their relationship.
First one on the list is that it often feels safer to the people in that couple if they're dating the same person. If they're opening up and they're dating the same person, that somehow feels safer, like nothing's happening that I'm not aware of, I think. There's also that they assume that they're able to find a third who will care about both of them and is attracted to both of them equally, which is an unlikely thing, and even if it does happen is unlikely for that to last a long time, but that is the idea. You go in thinking, "This is going to be great. They're going to be equally into both of us and no one will ever feel left out or slighted."
Dedeker: I can speak from personal experience. You can't even get a dog to like both people equally. It's just their relationship
Jase: That's true. Often the couple might feel that it's easier for them to prioritize their original couple if they're only dating as a couple. The kind that they're able to enforce more of their own rules with each other by dating together. I think that's another one of those ideas that goes into that motivation.
Emily: I think also in the context of unicorn hunting or finding a person to date together, that perhaps it's a little easier to jump ship if things start to go south and maybe abandon that third person or abandon that relationship, and that's like a decision that the two people make together. That's why this might get such a bad reputation, just unicorn hunting in general, and the ability to just toss a person to the side.
Also, maybe people want to do this just because it's simply as a fulfillment of a sexual fantasy or a fantasy in their mind of, "Oh, this is an exciting, fun prospect." I think a lot of people out there, and we actually knew about this too, but I was listening to a podcast recently where they had a person from the Kinsey Institute, who wrote a book called The Psychology of Human Sexuality, Dr. Justin J. Lehmiller. He said that he did a study with around 4,000 people asking what their fantasies were, their top fantasy. The vast majority of people said threesomes. This may just be, I think in some instances, the possibility of a threesome and fulfilling that fantasy. We're going to get more into that a little bit, but are there any others that y'all can think of?
Dedeker: I think there's a legitimate basis to someone wanting to explore bisexuality or pansexuality while feeling safe doing that. I think there are a number of people who do feel maybe a little intimidated by the idea of, "I want to explore this, but going out on my own separate from my partner feels very intimidating," and perhaps thinking about my partner being incorporated in that in some way feels less threatening or safer.
Jase: I think also it can be motivated by just a fear of jealousy. If my partner were to have much better luck finding partners outside of me, that would be a really scary thing, and so if we're dating together, then that will be a problem, right?
Emily: Yes. We're keeping the same score sheet or something. Each of us is dating the same person or dating the same amount of people therefore-- Yes, that's a good point.
Dedeker: I think there is something also very connective for people if they feel like they're on the same page, if they're on the same hunting team. I'm going to extrapolate this beyond sexual situations. I think for people who are in long-term relationships, having that sense of play, and that sense of adventure, and that sense of just that, we're on the same team in pursuing something together, can genuinely feel very connective for people. It should feel connected for people, honestly, and generate closeness and intimacy.
Jase: Just like a project or an adventure that we're going on together. In this case, it just happens to be looking for a third.
Dedeker: I feel the need to reiterate going through this list of, what are the reasons why people pursue this? Thinking about wanting to feel safe, opening up your relationship, wanting to pursue something together with your partner, wanting to fulfill a sexual fantasy, wanting to explore your sexuality. Those are all really good things. I think none of those things are inherently bad on their own, but as we'll get into, when you add in some weirdo power dynamics, that's when things start to go a little bit awry.
Emily: Let's move into that. Why are so many people in the ethically non-monogamous community not down with unicorn hunting? Why do they think it's unethical? The first one you actually discussed the static or the one penis policy. There's an article called The Underlying Sexism in Queerphobia of Unicorn Hunting and One Penis Policy. That says it all in the title. Basically, this article that we read, it's about queerphobia, sexism, and then also how this often invites the one penis policy into the equation.
Also, there are potentially stipulations to only have sex with both members of the couple, not just with one person and that the relationship with one person of the couple can't be established independently of the group dynamic. That's tough and also kind of bullshit. That's probably not going to happen most likely. At some point, two people might become a little bit closer than the other two and decide that they want to take something further, but perhaps the dynamics of this equation won't allow for that.
Jase: I think what I've definitely seen and experienced is that I think the reason why a lot of people have this bad reaction to that part of it is because they've been in some kind of relationship where they were some kind of a triad, some kind of adding a third, and one person in the partnership became closer with this new person and started really connecting, but then the other person's like, "That's not allowed. This can't be asymmetrical. You can't have a closer relationship at me so I'm going to blow the whole thing up." I think that hurts a lot of people and that has led a lot of people to have wounds about that being on different sides of that scenario and they're like, "No, this is always going to be bad. You can't do it."
Dedeker: There's no hard and fast numbers, but if I'm just based on my impressions of what I see on the internet, it does feel like for every couple that is hunting a unicorn out there, there are plenty of unicorns or former unicorns exponentially more who have been hurt by these situations potentially multiple times. I've seen multiple people get screwed over multiple times by couples thinking that it was going to be okay.
Emily: That's really unfortunate. I, kind of to piggyback off of that, a couple may have time to discuss things that are happening in the group relationship with one another. Especially if they live together or if they're a long-term established couple, they might be able to talk about things that are happening in that relationship without the unicorn being present. This can lead to things like decision-making, stuff like that, being made without the knowledge of the unicorn. That's really tough. It sucks to be in a relationship where two party members know more than you do about the relationship you're in. That blows.
Jase: I think that even- like when you say it that way, it sounds intentional. They're leaving the unicorn out, but in reality, even because those two people are communicating much more frequently, they might even think that there's more of a consensus of an understanding of what the whole group is feeling, even though they've left out one person or at least not equally weighted that other person's feelings and thoughts about it. Just not intentionally, but just because of who they're communicating with more. There's inherently this power imbalance. That's really hard to get past.
Another one is that, if there are hurt feelings, something went weird, the couple has each other to help each other through those feelings, but that unicorn might be left to go deal with that on their own, that they don't have quite the same support network or stability in that relationship. Then ultimately, if the couple- like I mentioned before, if the couple decides it isn't working out, they can just stay together and break it off with the unicorn. Either because they both decide that or more often, I think what we've seen is one person of the couple decides this is done and then it ends up having to be done for everyone and that again causes a lot of hurt and is this big power imbalance that that unicorn can just get tossed to the side like that. Again, like Dedeker said, lots of people have been hurt by that, and so there's understandably some negative feelings and reactions to that set up.
Dedeker: Then, of course, we have to address that often in these situations, there is inherent sexism, homophobia, transphobia, particularly in situations where there is a one penis policy going on. Sexism, because of believing that-- When sex is meant homophobia because of believing that relationships and sexual relationships between two women don't carry as much weight. They're not as threatening, they're not as real to the cis man in the situation, and therefore it's okay. I have seen a lot of straight cis men have very rude wake up calls when they realize that's not the case, that their relationship that their female partners having with another woman is actually just as threatening or just as scary at the end of the day.
Then, of course, there's this inherent transphobia. Often, when people, couples go out looking for a hot bi babe, the implication is we want a hot cisgender babe. We're not interested in anybody who's trans. Then there's also underneath that a little bit of this philosophical question of, okay, if you have a one penis policy and your female partner dates a trans-woman who maybe doesn't have a vulva, is that threatening? Or if it was the opposite, if your female partner dated a trans-man who maybe doesn't have a penis, is it a path to penis? As long as there's no penis, other than yours involved, then it's okay, which of course it just brings up all these weird, uncomfortable questions and I've seen some people who are able to sit with that and be like, "Oh yes, you're right. That's interesting to think about," and that kind of questioning can lead people to start to unpack, what are the things I'm actually afraid of? What are the things that I'm actually threatened by, and for some people, it just ends up in this really horrible transphobic, really cleaning to the gender binary, which is not great.
Jase: I think that it's worth mentioning that people who have thirds in their relationship, who do date together as a couple, don't always do all of these things. This is what these things, right? Like the one penis policy. Not everyone has that who's seeking a third, but a lot of them do. We bring these up as these are the red flags that have happened in the past, which is why you will often get those pile on reactions if you go into some polyamory Facebook groups saying, that's what you're looking for is, all of this hurt and hurt coming from people who did not intend to hurt anyone. They have the best of intentions going in we're just-- Like Dedeker mentioned earlier, all those reasons for wanting to do it are perfectly good. Wanting to do something together, wanting to open up your relationship, wanting to explore sexual fantasies like, "Oh, that's great. No problem," but there's so many of these things that are generally unexamined, like that sexism, and homophobia, and one penis policy, or that power dynamic that the couple has that they're usually not even aware of. They're not even aware that they have that much power and how disempowered that other person is.
Again, none of it's coming from a bad place, so then when the couple in the Facebook group goes, "No, no, no, we're going to be nice. We're not looking to do that," everyone just rolls their eyes because so many people have gone in with the best of intentions and caused a lot of hurt. That's where that comes from. I think that's really worth understanding both from the point of view of being the people jumping on someone for wanting that, and if you're someone who's thinking, "I'd like this," to be aware that this is why. There's very valid reasons why people are upset by this and why people will discourage you from doing it.
Emily: All righty. Well, we're going to discuss more about unicorn hunting. Why it often goes awry, and then finally get into some of the questions about, is it ethical? Are there any moments where it's ever ethical? Some of our findings from that, but first we're going to talk to you about some of the ways in which you can help this show continue to be brought to the masses for free. We really appreciate your support.
Dedeker: We're back with the big question. Is it ever ethical to go looking for a third to add to your relationship? I think I have seen a couple of articles floating around in recent years that discuss people who are very open about enjoying being a unicorn. That's a full breadth of experience. I've read people's accounts, talking about how they enjoy being that third threesome partner for a bunch of different couples, or some people who really enjoy being the regular threesome partner, or straight up being a triad. They met a couple, it really worked out, and they became a triad.
Of course, we did talk about this on our live show in polyamory in the media a few years back with the show Unicorn Land, which we highly recommend. If you haven't seen it, go to unicornlandseries.com. It's a fictional series but it's told from the point of view of a unicorn and shows her, exploring her sexuality and her own sense of freedom post-divorce. It's an experience that I've heard from other real-life unicorns expressing the fact that sometimes dating couples lets you connect to people and have fun in a way that you don't get just by having sex with a bunch of randos necessarily, or a bunch of one night stands, or a bunch of hook-ups.
There is a particular school of thought around unicorn hunting, around how do we solve the problem of unicorn hunting. There are a number of people out there who suggest to people hiring a sex worker. That could be an ethical way in which people can explore and engage in specifically the threesome fantasy or an ongoing threesome fantasy that doesn't necessarily involve needing to disenfranchise somebody or hurt somebody's feelings.
Rosie Sparkles, who's a feminist sex worker based in Montreal wrote this great article on medium entitled: Unicorn hunting done right. Why couples should hire sex workers. Rosie says, "The logical and most ethical way to fulfill the unicorn fantasy would be to hire an independent sex worker who specializes in couples or women clients." There are a ton of those. I don't know if y'all have gone down the rabbit hole looking for sex workers, but I think a lot of sex workers understand that this is a market essentially.
Again, I want to reiterate, there is nothing wrong with wanting that, with having that particular fantasy. Of course, hiring a sex worker, if you've never done it before, can be really intimidating. It can feel like a risk. In Rosie's article, she recommends you to staying away from sex worker review boards, which are mostly inhabited by men who are trying to pay the least they can for sexual favors. Looking for an independent sex worker that's part of a collective. If there's a sex worker collective in your city, it means that most likely other sex workers have met this person, that they're most likely not under the influence of a pimp. They're more likely to have a website, a social media platform where you can read about their personality, their services to see if you think they might be a good match.
Rosie also recommends contacting the provider and suggesting that if you're a heterosexual couple, that the woman calls the sex worker to verify that she, the woman is on board with this. The reason why she recommends this is because it's a thing that's happened many times before a man will hire a sex worker for the couple without his wife knowing, thinking that it's going to be a surprise.
Emily: It's not very nice.
Dedeker: I've also seen people do this, not even in hiring a sex worker, I've witnessed people do this of, "I'm going to bring another person home and surprise my partner when they come home, and we've never discussed this before this moment. I'm just going to spring it on them." The person that I'm thinking of who did this, it didn't go as horribly as it could have been, but it was still not a great experience for anybody involved, but that's transparent to everyone.
Emily: Communicate. Please, communicate.
Dedeker: Communicate, I think people fall into this, both, whether they're hiring a sex worker or just wanting to bring someone home. Unfortunately, people get so caught up in the like, "Oh, I'm going to surprise my partner. It's going to be a surprise birthday gift." I think the thought is great. The reality is that human beings just aren't birthday gifts.
Emily: Absolutely.
Jase: I think that what's worth looking at and getting to the heart of this is something that we talked about years ago when we talked about this before, which is if the threesome is the thing that's exciting, be honest with yourselves about that, and that's great. There is nothing wrong with that. If the threesome is the fantasy that you want to do, that doesn't necessarily mean adding a third to your relationship or finding someone to have this ongoing relationship with.
This could be just a friend who sometimes likes to hook up with you on a regular basis as a couple. It could be that. Someone who you're not trying to pull into this whole relationship. It's like, "Yes, I get, they have this whole other life, but maybe they like hooking up with the two of us." That's an option. It could be a one-off thing. It could be hiring a sex worker. There are people out there who are interested in having sex with couples but don't want to enter into a relationship, where they're either expected to not date other people or that they have to invest a lot more of their time. Maybe the reason why they're not in your couple is because they don't want to invest all that time and emotional energy into this relationship, and they just like the threesome part too.
Just be aware that those are options and those are all perfectly valid if you find other people who want those too. I think sometimes people can have guilt about that fantasy, and then think, "Oh, we're having an ongoing relationship." Polyamory, that's the way to not feel guilty about this.
Emily: Generally, the articles that I've seen out there that have happened more recently regarding people who are happy that their unicorns or they're saying, "This is my great experience of being a unicorn." It conflates that idea of threesomes or being a person who enjoys engaging in threesomes with conflates it with this idea that many of us have of unicorn hunting, and to me, they're not quite the same thing. I guess one can call themselves a unicorn and say that "Oh, I am the third in the threesome with established couples, and I love being that." When I think about unicorns, I guess my mind tends to go to that more predatory couple that's looking for a third to enter into their lives for a long period of time, but a lot of the articles out there, they're more of these people that are just excited about having threesomes.
There was one called confessions of a real-life unicorn, and essentially just says that she's someone who is a bisexual woman, who is down to hook up with generally heterosexual monogamish couples, often as a no-strings-attached threesome experience arranged in advance. She uses things like Feeld, which is one of our sponsors, and things like Tinder, OkCupid, and essentially, yes, that threesome is the end goal, and that thing that she's looking for and therefore is happy to fulfill in couples that are already established.
Jase: I think it's worth noting about Feeld that this article was written in 2017 when Feeld was much more focused on threesomes, and it has since expanded to fill this void of a more sex-positive and inclusive dating app that no one else has really managed to pull off. That's also interesting getting this glimpse in the history of the origins of that and how that's evolved over time.
Emily: That's true.
Jase: Also, from that same story, the confessions of a real-life unicorn, something she says, I'll actually just read this quote because I think this really does a good job of summing up how that could feel and that is, "They have each other, they fit into each other's big plans. I mostly fit into their weekend plans and I'm fine with that. I have a somewhat demanding job, a full social life, and an insatiable love of flirting with people, and a committed relationship just doesn't fit into my schedule right now, but my couple they're perfect."
I think that is really interesting. I did want to share too that the experience that I had being a third with a couple, and I know that when we talk about unicorn hunting, that's generally adding a female partner. That's the stereotype there, but the one time when I was a third with a couple, one of the things I did really like about it was getting to be the special thing, kind of like she's describing. It's like I get to be the special fun thing, but then I also get to leave and not deal with the household drama or whatever else is going on.
Emily: Sounds fun.
Jase: Yes. There were some challenges. In this case, they were people who I'd been friends with for a while, and so if things did get awkward, I would be worried and concerned for them and wanting to make sure they're okay, but I could also see if it were people that I wasn't as close with in advance, it would be great to be like, "Wow, this feels weird now. I'm going to go." I'm just not have to deal with that. That actually, ironically, we've talked before about unicorns getting burned by not getting included in the more serious conversations, but depending on the unicorn, they might be like, "Cool. No worries. You do your thing. I'm gone. See you later." This is just being aware of how everyone is feeling and what people's expectations are, I think is an important part of that.
Dedeker: There's this other article that we found titled, I'm in a loving relationship with a married couple and that makes me a unicorn. The same theme where this woman is talking about her experience, really enjoying this triad relationship with a married couple. She also sees other people on her own, so it's not necessarily a closed triad. Of course, that leads one to believe, perhaps it is possible for an organic ethical triad to evolve out of a unicorn relationship. That does happen for sure.
It's, unfortunately, with the prevalence of unicorn hunting, everyone thinks that that's going to be the natural endpoint. It's going to be this really healthy, wonderful triad, and that often isn't the case, but it does happen. Sometimes I think people get really lucky in their expectations being matched, in the way they communicate being matched, and where it does turn into a really long-lasting nice triad.
I think about that, and I think about the distinction between what makes "like healthy triad versus unicorn hunting and how do people form triads?" Because it's not that we have three-person first dates that happen really frequently, where three people just happen to really get along together. Often there's going to be some established relationship first to a certain extent.
I think revisiting this topic, maybe this is a little bit too simple stick for me to say, but to me, it feels like it just comes down to power and power dynamics, and that's not to say in order to have a triad or have a third in a relationship, you need to completely scrub away any power dynamics. I think it's just to say, everyone needs to be aware of the power dynamics. Power is sexy. People play with power all the time. That's so much of kink and BDSM, but the foundation of that is everyone involved knows what the power exchange is going to be.
If you're a couple, and first of all, you have the self-awareness to know, we want to be holding most of the power and decision-making in this situation, and therefore we want someone who is okay with that. I think pitching that is different than trying to pitch, "Oh no, it's all going to be equal. We're going to treat you really good and it's going to be fantastic, and it's going to be great."
Because I think honestly, people do all kinds of stuff. People do all kinds of kinky stuff where their third is their dom, for instance, where the third is given all the sexual power. We play with it in that way versus maybe a couple wants to be dominant to a submissive third, and being able to, again, just embrace the fact that this is what we want. That's going to empower you to be able to find people who want that as well, instead of what often happens, which is the weird communication, mismatch, feeling embarrassed of what we actually want, or maybe not even knowing what we actually want, selling someone on something that's not accurate to what the relationship is going to be, and all those behaviors.
Emily: I was listening to a podcast recently with a married cisgender couple, and the woman said, "If we ever have a threesome, I want the whole thing to be about me. I don't care what happens with her. I don't care what happens with you. It needs to be all about me." Red flags went off there, but I was like, "Well, maybe somebody would enjoy being in that dynamic."
Dedeker: Yes, that's the thing. If they were open about that. I was going to say put out a personal ads, I don't think people are doing that anymore.
Emily: Maybe it's just on a podcast so I know now that it gets millions of downloads.
Dedeker: I think plenty of people, if you were just honest about, "I want to find another woman to help me pleasure my partner in this way. This is for fantasy," people are totes down for that. Not everybody, but a lot of people are.
Emily: Sure.
Jase: I think where we get into problems is when you try to present it like it's going to be something else, and then gradually switch it. I think that we've come across this same kind of dynamic that you come from two places. One, it can come from a place of feeling like, "If I'm honest about what I want or what we want, that no one's going to want to do it, and so we're going to kind of sugarcoat it. We're going to pat it a little or we're going to try to do something that's not quite what we actually want because we think somehow that's a better thing to want," like that's more okay to want something like that. I think that's one option.
Sorry, I guess I conflated the two things. One option is that feeling like someone's going to say no, and so I'm going to try to adjust it or make it look like it's going to be different. Then the other is just feeling guilt for wanting that and thinking, "Oh, I can't want that so I should want this other thing," which also ends up being dishonest. I think we see this in all sorts of other areas too. There's like this extra power dynamic that shows up with couples doing this.
If you think about it, that's the same reasoning and the same thing that goes into people who want to date polyamorously, but don't tell the person they've started dating until the third date or something. They're thinking, "Oh well, I'll ease them into it somehow," or, "No one would like me," or, "I'd feel guilty if I said that I wanted that right away," or we see it with someone who really just wants to hook up, but tries to pretend like they want a relationship, either out of guilt or fear of rejection. I think it's kind of, couples can fall into that same thing, and that's a big pitfall there of not being honest and clear about what it is you want so that other people do actually get to say yes to it. Instead of thinking they're saying yes to one thing and not getting that.
Emily: If after listening to this episode, you have decided, "You know what? I still am interested in finding a third or finding someone to hook up with in my already established relationships," what are some actionable things that you can do? First, if you are a couple, maybe look at some of the ways in which couple’s privilege shows up in your relationship. You can write this down. You can do a brain dump with your partner. Try to be honest. Try to see it like, "Hey, okay, what are the ways in which the two of us have couple’s privilege, and how is that going to potentially affect someone else?"
Also, everyone has expectations or things that they're looking for in potential relationships. Try to consider if you yourself has built a box that you are hoping another person is going to fill and come into and check off all of the little tick boxes in your list of, "This is exactly what I want my third person to look like, or be like, or act like. This is the role that I'm hoping that they're going to fulfill."
Try to give yourself some space to explore the possibilities of the fact that probably you're not going to find somebody that is that unicorn that does fit into all of those boxes. It's also interesting to do that, that brain dump, and be honest with yourself about what it is that you are looking for. Because perhaps, if you do this also with your partner, the two of you will discover, "Hey, maybe we just do want a one night playing with somebody," or, "Maybe we do want a fun birthday gift experience or an exciting experience. Maybe hiring a sex worker is the better thing for the two of us to fulfill this one fun night, or having a friend with benefits type situation with somebody else." Explore those possibilities. Be transparent and be open with your partner.
Also, if you are going to go out there and look at your dating profiles, really do a critical review of them if you are going to try to find somebody through dating apps, through Feeld, through OkCupid, and stuff like that. Look at them. Are you using objectifying language? Are you using language that's potentially going to cause harm? What things are you saying on there? Do a critical review of that.
Emily: Then in terms of looking at your dating profiles, we have a few more things for you to think about. Some of these are pulled from an article written for SELF by Melissa A. Fabello, and it's titled You're a Couple Looking for a Third. I'm a Potential Unicorn. Let's Talk. I do like that her subtitle is, "Here's how to do it without being an asshole." First things first, make it obvious that you're a couple. I think many of us who've been on dating apps have experienced the, "Oh, I think I'm attracted to this person. Oh, wait, it's a couple. I'm not really interested in a couple because they put their first five pictures of just one person, and then at the very end, they're like, "Oh, by the way, this is my partner as well." Ideally, you're using pictures of the both of you, and not just 10 pictures of the woman and then one picture of the guy.
We recommend, craft a bio that's both respectful and accurate. Both describing yourselves as individuals, not describing yourself as a couple. Because you are individuals actually, at the end of the day. Describing one person, describing the other person, and then describing what it is that you're actually searching for in an honest and upfront way. Again, being clear with your language. Be upfront about what exactly it is that you're looking for. Is that, I want one wild night of wild threesome. Do we want a casual once-in-a-while thing? Do I actually want a relationship? Do I want someone that I can fulfill a really elaborate years-long role-play fantasy that involves three people? The sky's the limit. The important thing is just being honest.
I think the nice thing these days, especially with apps like Feeld and OkCupid that are trying to make an effort toward being more inclusive and creating a space where people feel more free to be themselves, where you don't necessarily have to water down what it is that you're looking for. I think that's the most important takeaway, in my opinion, is if you put it out there, you really increase the chances that you're going to find someone who wants what you want when you're honest about it. Don't just message people in the hopes that they're going to be that sex object for you, that they're going to spice up your relationship. Again, unless you're very upfront about that and it's something that they're also looking for.
Jase: I think that's actually a great opportunity to remember that. Say, you were looking for someone who did want to come into your relationship as a plaything, who leaves at the end, and you're very upfront about that’s what you want. Even if that's the case, the way you talk to this person, talk about this person, and message this person, is different from that. That's one of those things that you learn in kink communities and relationships that I think a lot of people going into this don't have that experience. That communication beforehand needs to be very--
Emily: Considerate?
Jase: Yes, compassionate, considerate, very humanizing for everyone. Even if you're arranging a scenario where you're going to establish a power dynamic that's very extreme or something like that, that outside of that container where you're having that experience, we want to be extra sure to be compassionate and caring and not slip into that way of treating someone in real life, if that makes sense. I do want to clarify that because we've been talking a lot about like, "Be upfront about what you want," but also treat them like a human being while you're talking about that and trying to discover if they want that or not. If they don't, that's fine.
Dedeker: Then lastly, if you connect with someone and it gets as far as actually meeting this person to see if it's good connection, to see if it seems like a good fit, remember that you don't want it to come off like a job interview. You don't want any date to come off like a job interview.
Emily: That sounds shitty itself.
Dedeker: Stuff that couples will do is give each other secret looks or secret handshakes.
Emily: Gestures.
Dedeker: Or secret gestures to --
Emily: Winking.
Emily: This was a good one. Shaking hair.
Dedeker: It happens.
Jase: I’m imagining like a pitcher and a catcher. They're doing secret signals with their baseball caps.
Emily: Exactly. nods or something.
Dedeker: I totally understand the temptation to do that, because there's a part of that's really fun. Also, again, that already establishes upfront that, "We're the ones who have the power and you're not. We're the ones potentially holding the job that you so want, or not, or we're going to give you the part or not." Just be aware of that. Just be cool kids. I don't know how many times we can say it. Something that people don't think about is the fact that this is a two-way street. It's not just about you evaluating this third person to see whether or not you think they'll fit. They're also evaluating you.
Emily: Hell, yes.
Dedeker: You should also be dedicating some brain space to thinking about the fact that we also need to put our best foot forward. We also need to give a sense of expressing this person what we can offer in this sense as individuals.
Emily: I wanted to leave you all with some final words from the esteemed Dr. Eli Sheff, our good friend who wrote an article in Psychology Today and said this, which I found to be really interesting and something that probably not a lot of people do. If a couple is lucky enough to encounter a woman who wants to hook up with them, they should treat her like they fully appreciate the rare and magical being that she is. That means these couples should wine her, dine her, and pay for her transit and childcare so that she can hang out with them.
The dates, pleasure should be the primary focus of sexual encounters and she should absolutely orgasm first. Couples should meet wherever works best for the dates. Do not assume she will come to the couple's place and then be happily dismissed when they are finished with her. If a hotel room is the best place for a hookup, then the couples should pay for it. I love that.
Jase: That's nice playing out. If this is how the power dynamic works, then the care should also work that way too. It's like you've got all the power. You've also got to provide more of the care.
Emily: Yes, indeed. Absolutely. Because this is a lovely thing that potentially she is fulfilling upon you. Treat her with respect and care and maybe a little bit of compensation in the form of childcare and wining and dining, things like that. All righty. Well, that was a fun trip down memory lane of threesomes, and unicorn hunting, and things like that. It's been a while. We are going to discuss in our bonus episode about dragons, another mythological creature, and a little bit more about triads and how trans tend to be something that a lot of people want but they are not easy. Reminding everyone out there that they're playing on hard mode if they're going to be in a triad. Our question for Instagram this week is, have you ever had a positive unicorn experience? I guess that can mean if you were the unicorn, if you were looking for a unicorn, any of the above.
Emily: Was it positive? I can't imagine that it wouldn't be. That sounds awesome. The best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is on this episode's discussion thread in our private Facebook group or Discord chats. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to patrion.com/multiamory. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram.