378 - The Anxious Person's Guide to Non-Monogamy with Lola Phoenix

Full transcript available

Welcome back, Lola!

Lola Phoenix was last on our show back in episode 225. Today, they rejoin us to discuss their new book, “The Anxious Person’s Guide to Non-Monogamy,” and answer the following questions:

• What made you want to write this book and why is it important that we have a book that is told from this perspective?

• One of the first things you discuss in this book is the idea of an “Anchor.” Can you talk about what this is and why it is so important?

• You are critical of a lot of non-monogamous communities in the book. Can you discuss your experience with some of them and why it has been challenging to find a good non-monogamous community?

• You discuss how monogamy is just as valid as non-monogamy in terms of a relationship structure. Why do you think so many people who discuss non-monogamy tend to put down monogamous relationships and why is it important that we not do that in educational spaces?

• So many books tend to tell the reader that their jealousy, their anger, or fear is, in essence, “their problem,” and that they just need to do more internal work to fix their feelings of disorientation. Why is this not helpful to those who are neurodivergent and/or anxious and what instead can people do to quiet feelings of anger, shame, and jealousy?

• Can you discuss a little bit about what the relationship check-ins from the book look like?

• At the end of the book you have a really incredible list of “Relationship Assumptions” and how they may contribute to anxiety a person might have around their non-monogamous relationship. Can we discuss some of those assumptions?

Lola also produces a weekly advice column and podcast called Non-Monogamy Help which you can find at nonmonogamyhelp.com, on Twitter @NonMonogamyHelp and on Instagram @NonMonogamyHelp. Their new book is “The Anxious Person’s Guide to Non-Monogamy,” and can be purchased online or at major bookstores.

Transcript

This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.

Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we are joined by special guest, Lola Phoenix, to talk about their new book, The Anxious Person's Guide to Non-monogamy. Lola is an American-born writer living in Stockholm. They've recently published The Anxious Person's Guide to Non-monogamy with Jessica Kingsley Publishers on June 21st, just last week. Lola also produces a weekly advice column and podcast called Nonmonogamy Help. The last time they were on our show was in 2019 on episode 225. Lola, thank you so much for coming back. We're glad to have you here.

Lola: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.

Dedeker: You titled your book, The Anxious Person's Guide to Non-monogamy, which I think just based on the title alone can see it flying off the shelves because I feel so many people really struggle with this. Also, so many people, I think, either deal with generalized anxiety or an anxiety disorder or anxious attachment, or anything related to anxiety. I can see this really resonating for a lot of folks. What was it that made you want to write this book in particular?

Lola: I actually got approached by Jessica Kingsley Publishers, which was very interesting, very big attack of imposter syndrome for me of, "Oh, what? You want me to write a book? Okay." I noticed that there were a lot of things that I was saying in my columns and podcasts that I was repeating a lot and concepts that I wanted to solidify a little bit more, like having an anchor. I really wanted a book that had something more than just personal experience, though I do have a lot of personal experience in the book. I wanted something that gave people practical exercises and things like that because I didn't see that very often.

I felt like some of that would be helpful to people, especially because even though it is a relationship and relationships are not completely predictable, I'm not saying that you can get everything down to a science and a plan, but I do think that approaching things with some exercises could really be helpful for a lot of people. I really wanted to include that in it and I just wanted to write something that was as all-rounded as I could. Obviously, I don't have every perspective that's within the polyamory community, within the wider non-monogamy community. I can only write from my own perspective.

I don't want to say that people only write about the good aspects, but I do think that sometimes there's a lot about good aspects, but not necessarily about things that are challenging. Some books do have more that's about challenging aspects of polyamory. I wanted to have a little bit of both and just present something that was basically very similar to some of the advice that I had already given, but was a little bit more organized and was something that not just people who were brand new to it could go to.

Also, if you were stuck or if you were feeling really anxious, then it would also be something that you could maybe reapproach different things with because I don't think it's ever too late to do that in most cases.

Dedeker: Definitely. I think that makes a lot of sense. I really like that sentiment of it's never too late to be returning to these things or brushing back up on these things or seeking out support for some of these foundational things when we're feeling destabilized and disoriented. That makes a lot of sense.

Emily: You discussed right there also the concept of anchor, which is something that you throw in there immediately in the first part of your book. My mind went to, oh, is this man an anchor partner or something along those lines, but that's not what it is. Can you talk to us about what anchor means in your book?

Lola: An anchor is something that I have coined, as far as I know. I've never heard of anybody talking about it, but it is the reason why you as an individual are interested in polyamory. I try to approach it in an aspect that not every single person will personally identify as polyamorous or feel like it's inherently part of who they are. Even people who are being monogamous to a polyamorous person can have an anchor. The idea is that there is a personal reason for you to be interested in trying this. I think that it's really important because I do feel the vast majority of people won't necessarily know that polyamory is an option.

Then when they get introduced to it, a good portion of those people get introduced to it when they're already in a monogamous relationship. They're either the partner saying, "Hey, let's open up," or they're the other partner going, "Uh, okay." If you have an anchor that is just keeping your monogamous relationship afloat, that isn't really going to work purely because what you have when you change your relationship in that way is a fundamentally different relationship. What I wanted to bring was an idea that you can have a personal reason. It can be something that's as small as, "I like having the house to myself every once in a while."

Just something that will bring you back. When you're feeling really anxious, you can go, "Okay, there is a reason that I chose to do this." I think we have anchors and all sorts of things in our life. I've made a massive move to a new country and there's an anchor. There's a reason why I've chosen to do that. When things get tough, I can go back to that reason and go, "There is a reason I've chosen to do this." I think just bringing that to polyamory really helps because I think so many people are stuck in a cycle of trying to tell themselves, "Oh, my partner loves me, and I'm really unique, and da da da da." It's not to say that that's not true.

I do think that as an individual, you really need a reason to try it even if it's just to have new experiences, even if it's because you like spending time alone in the bed and getting the whole bed for one night. There has to be something in it for you so that you can go back to that. I think having that really, really helps. It's not impossible to do it without an anchor. There have been plenty of people who just tried it to save a relationship, but I think having an anchor helps a lot.

Dedeker: It reminds me of when we did our episode a while back about figuring out your values because it feels to me like getting to the bottom of what it is that we value can serve the same purpose. It can serve the same purpose of when the waters get choppy or when I'm blown off course or when I'm at a decision point, and I'm really not sure what to do, that we can reconnect to those things to help guide us.

I really like you taking it and making it this very single, almost tangible thing of an anchor because I do think once we start talking about values, that can be very expansive and very broad. People can get overwhelmed very, very quickly. I really like this idea of almost tying it. It's almost like the stake in the ground or the place where you can set your feet.

Jase: It reminds me a little bit of something that we've said before on this show about a lot of things is just this idea that love is not enough. You touched on it a little bit in what you were saying of, if your only motivation is because I want to save this monogamous relationship, that's going to be a really hard thing to motivate you through it. You can't just white knuckle it through, just be like, "Well, if I just love this person enough. It'll be fine."

I love this, that it gives you something more concrete. It's not just like, "Hey, it's not going to work." It's, "No, no, no. Let's explore. Let's find what might work for you." Could you give us maybe a few examples of anchors that people have come up with that you've talked to or some of your own, or just some different examples so people can think about that a little?

Lola: My personal anchor and I'm a little bit more poly-ambiguous at this point. I'm not necessarily and never have been a person that feels like they have to be polyamorous. For me, the reason that I chose polyamory was because I wanted a really big family and I wanted multiple parents for any number of kids that I would have. I felt like that was a really important thing to have. That was a big part of my anchor. I think other things that have helped me is also just being able to have relationships that might be a little bit over the line if you were in a monogamous relationship. That is another aspect of an anchor that might be entertaining for you or pleasing to you.

That isn't to say that somebody who is monogamous couldn't negotiate that with their partner. They could, but having that be something, having a little bit of that freedom to be able to flirt and see where things go, that is also a big anchor for some people. I think that the values thing does really work for a lot of people, just purely feeling that this is part of their inherent value system is a big anchor. I think that could help.

Then I also think that, if you practice a kitchen table polyamory, or if you were interested in having a very big friend group or interested in having this sort of large family that's not necessarily related to kids but you really want to have that kind of representation in your life, I think that could also be a massive anchor for you. I think there's all sorts of different ways that you can decide what it is. It can be something that's really small. I always give the example of being able to stay home when you don't want to go out. I still think that's a really good one, but it just has to be something that's really personal to you. It isn't even always about white-knuckling it.

The comparison I always give is there are some monogamous relationships where people have partners who have really time-intensive careers and they don't get 100% or most of their time with their partner. Not every monogamous person can do that. They have to have a reason why they are okay with it or why they want to go ahead with it. Not everybody can. I think that if you can see the similarity there, that could also help for whatever reason that you may feel like you could do a monogamous relationship where your partner maybe went abroad for long periods of time, or was a doctor and wasn't home. I think that could also be really helpful in finding your anchor.

As long as it's understanding that the fundamental aspect of your relationship is going to change in terms of time actually spent, then you could probably find some type of anchor at some point. I think if you really just want to try it, that's still an anchor. Just being, "I don't want to give up my relationship I don't want to just throw it away. I'd like to see if this works," that's still somewhat of an anchor. Just be real with yourself about the actual change because it can be very easy, especially when you just open a relationship and your partner doesn't have any other partners yet and is not really going on dates very much, to not really feel like much has changed. It's just important for you to reckon with that.

Jase: Yes, it makes me think too about how much that's changed for me as well. I think early on, for me, it was maybe even more about getting to have lots of people in my life and have people around a lot, be around people. Now, it is more like you're saying where I'm just, gosh, I want more alone time, "Hey, Dedeker, maybe you should take a solo trip by yourself to another country so I can have some space." That, for me years ago, I never would've thought I would want that. It also evolves over time, which is cool.

Emily: Yes, I'm sure well over the course of a person's life, for sure. I want to pivot to a different section of the book where you talk about community and non-monogamy. You're pretty critical of a lot of non-monogamous communities. I think rightly so. Can you discuss maybe your experience with some of those communities that you've been in and why it's been really challenging to find a good non-monogamous community?

Lola: I think that finding a good community is what I describe in the book as a postcode lottery, or basically, it can be really good in some places and really not good in others. For me, personally, what I found challenging is two things. First thing is, within online communities, I feel like there is sometimes a kind of toxic positivity where people feel almost a pressure to constantly perform that polyamory is good for them. This is the good side. Everything's good, everything's positive.

I don't really blame them for that because I do feel like on a wide scale, people don't really know about polyamory per se. They do know about open relationships more and more, but the general idea is that they don't work. That's what everyone thinks, and so I do understand why a lot of people online really want to continue to show that it does work. It reminds me very much of when I was younger, my mom is gay, and during the whole gay marriage kind of debates and stuff like that. It's like the examples that we hold up are the lesbian couple that's been together and are 70 years old, not the people who break up after two weeks, even though that's just as legitimate. It's a very big push to show that this does work.

I think that the problem with that sometimes is that people don't really know where to go. If they're struggling, they assume that it's because they can't do it, and they're faced with some different challenges that monogamy doesn't have. People can mess up in monogamy. They don't think that monogamy is impossible for them, but they're put under a lot of pressure. I think that seeing everything be rosy can sometimes make people feel like, "Oh, things aren't rosy with me. Am I the one that's wrong here?"

I think that can happen in in-person communities too, maybe even a little bit more so because there is an anonymity granted online. That means people will sometimes come forth with their problems in online communities where they won't in individual communities. Sometimes, if there is a breakup, there's more of a pressure to not be dramatic, to not be upset, to not be angry. There is a lot of power dynamics that go on in communities where when people are leaders, you think you want to date them because they're the leaders of the community and therefore they must have the most experience. They must be safe to date. That's not always the case.

That's one of the biggest reasons why I don't want to call myself a guru or anything like that. I really disagree with the idea that just because I've had some experience doesn't mean that I'm perfect. I think it can be really good. I've heard of really good communities. I've heard of really supportive communities where people can really come forward with their struggles and aren't really seen as dramatic, but I've had experiences just where like, for example, to give you a really hard example, I was going to go to a play party. I wasn't quite sure.

It was a big play party with everybody within the community, and I wasn't sure if I wanted to go because I was like if I'm going to have space to be alone because I had a lot of social anxiety. The person who was running the play party said that I could come, but that if I was bumming everybody out, I'd have to leave. Yes. It can be not so fun of a place if people are more focused on having a good time if people are more focused on everybody really getting along and no bad vibes. It can be a really not-so-great experience if you have anxiety.

Dedeker: My question is because with my client base I end up working with a lot of folks who are new to non-monogamy or are really craving that sense of community or at least want to find someone else to be able to talk to about this stuff someone that they don't have to pay necessarily, and I do often have to give folks that disclaimer. I really like that phrase, the postcode lottery, where it really is like it's all up in the air. It could be whoever is closest to you, it could be fantastic community, could be horrible and toxic, or your closest community could be a six-hour drive away literally for some folks, especially in the US.

What is your recommendation or advice for people in those situations where not only is it a question of what's the quality of the community maybe it's just the community doesn't exist around me at all?

Lola: I think that online is a good option for a lot of people. One thing that I just think is I would encourage people to be okay with walking away and to not take not fitting in with a community as, "I'm not fit for polyamory," that this community is a representation of polyamory. If you don't feel comfortable in a community, if you feel like asking questions is going to get you yelled at, if you feel like you're going to be mocked, or if you generally just don't feel respected, and I think that should be true for anybody in any community, you can walk away. That community doesn't necessarily represent the whole world. It can suck.

I'm not quite sure what to recommend for people who are really isolated in rural areas other than online communities unless you want to put your feelers out and see if there are people who are locally willing to meet with you to start a meetup group and see if you get any hits off that. Somebody has to be the first one to do it so if you want to do that, then if you feel brave enough and you don't feel like there will be any personal repercussions for you, definitely go ahead and do that. The biggest thing is just learn that if you don't fit into a community if it's not for you, you can walk away.

It doesn't mean that you're not polyamorous. It doesn't mean that you can't do it. Take people's considerations and judgments of you with a grain of salt. I do think that a lot of new people come into communities and they are maybe not, maybe they're making mistakes. Maybe they're doing things that people would consider unethical, but they're not doing them really with the intent to be predatory. They just are trying to keep their relationship afloat and try this new thing. They go into communities and then they get told that they're being horrible, evil people, and then they get scared off.

I really feel for those people because I don't think they're trying to be nasty or evil. I think that they just are trying to make decisions that actually make quite a lot of sense for what they're trying to do. They just have to rethink things a little bit. Yes, I think the biggest thing is just being willing to walk away. Don't take anybody's judgment of view to heart too much because some people are just angry online, and that's true for any community.

Dedeker: Oh, it's way too true for any community. Yes, I think we have talked on the show a lot about how I do think this is like a continual problem of a lot of these spaces really not being compassionate, friendly, understanding to people who are new, whether it's just new to that community or new to non-monogamy. I feel like the other tone of this that I want to hit because this is another thing I've increasingly heard from more clients is sometimes they'll go to a non-monogamy community, whether it's a meetup or an online space or whatever it is.

They're like, "Everyone was super nice, totally welcoming, and totally fine. The problem is that I'm not into board games or LARPing or rope play, and so I don't feel like these are my people." We're starting to get into stereotypes, but the non-monogamy community does tend to attract a certain subset. I guess I would want to add on to that, but it's also okay to walk away from that. If you're just like, "That was great to meet other non-monogamous folks and talk to them, and also, I don't know if these are my people. I don't know if they share my hobbies or if I'll be friends with them."

Lola: Yes, definitely. There's a really hilarious song. I don't know if you've heard it by a comedian called Chris Fleming called Polyamorous.

Dedeker: So many times. He's amazing.

Jase: Oh yes.

Lola: So good.

Jase: It's pretty funny. I think what's interesting to me is that what we're talking about in community and what we were talking about before with relationships, both, to me have this similar thread of when we think about non-monogamy or polyamory, especially when we're new to it, we tend to see it as something monolithic. It's like, "Well, everyone doing it must be doing it the same way. I just need to figure out what that is," or, "If this community isn't for me, then this whole thing must not be for me."

That idea of, well, because we are the thing that everyone says, "Oh, that just doesn't work," or, "Oh, this is messed up that you want to do that. That's cool for now while you're young, but eventually, this isn't going to work for you and you'll settle down." All that stuff combines into us feeling like we need to be performing all the time, putting on that shiny look, everything's great, rainbows and unicorns. Then also, that thing of not feeling like we can walk away from a relationship, from a community, from even just a way of doing relationships. That's hard.

We wouldn't do the same thing with something that is more mainstream. With monogamy, it's like, "Oh, I'm going to join a dating community or something." I don't even know what that is, but imagine that existed. A monogamy dating community or something. If I didn't think that people there were nice or I just didn't share interests, it'd be like, "Okay, I'm going to move away from that. That doesn't mean I can't find other monogamous people," but because there's fewer of us, it can feel more of that pressure.

I really like that idea though of just reiterating, just like in monogamy if it was failing, you wouldn't think monogamy failed but maybe that relationship's not the right one for you, or maybe this way of doing it is not quite right for you and the same with the communities. I love the idea of just reiterating that. That it is okay to walk away and maybe that's just not the right one for you.

Dedeker: I think, Jase, you and I have joined a group, a community based on just monogamy. I think the closest experience we had a few years ago, so the Gottman Institute, which is famously very heteronormative and nonnormative, they released a new book. As part of the launch for their book, they also created this Facebook community of almost a book club/people were trying out the exercise in the book and talking about that. I think that was one of the closest.

Emily: It was for Eight Dates.

Dedeker: Yes. That was for the Eight Dates book, which I thought it was actually a fantastic book. I think that was the closest to, this is a weird experience of, this is a community based on relationship structure of being monogamous. That was also really weird where I was like, "These people have all sorts of weird life situations and problems that I don't have or problems that I have that they don't have." Of course, I'm like, "Well, I don't find this as the only community that supports who I am in my identity."

We can think the same thing about non-monogamous or polyamorous communities that, at the end of the day, is a little absurd to create a community just based on relationship structure and expect that to fulfill all your community needs.

Emily: Yes. You said that in your book too, that you have a problem if the only thing that everybody is talking about and the coolest thing about people is that they're non-monogamous. That's a little strange. Let's also discuss larger, broader issues and things along those lines as opposed to just, "Oh, we're all non-monogamous," and that's it. That may not serve you either.

Lola: Yes. I didn't want to necessarily sound like I was judging people, but it's similar to how people will criticize that. If somebody has kids, then all they talk about is kids. I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just like when I was in this community, so I was like, "I'd actually like talk about something else other than non-monogamy. It is something that I'm interested in and that I write about, but there are lots of other things to talk about." That can also be a barrier if you're feeling like it's not necessarily a shared value thing and what you were saying about there is a lot of different ways to practice non-monogamy.

As I've said before in the column and the podcast, just because two people are even non-monogamous, doesn't make them compatible. There's lots of different ways to do it. There's so many different people that could be in a non-monogamous group and there isn't necessarily any inherent shared values or any inherent shared anything other than the fact that you're all non-monogamous.

It might actually be, outside of dating, it might actually be difficult to really feel close in some communities unless-- The best communities I've heard of being non-monogamous communities were also queer communities and maybe they probably are also had similar values and things like that. It's okay if you, in a general group, you're feeling like, "Oh, I don't feel that connected," because there isn't that much to connect on, especially if you haven't technically tried non-monogamy yet.

Dedeker: Yes. The way that I put it to my client sometimes is I do think having those spaces is important where I know at least this particular aspect of who I am and how I live is going to be validated and at least, hopefully, not shamed and despised and criticized. Having access to that space is important. Also it's like, we need a more balanced breakfast is the way that I think about it. We need a more nutritious diet with more variety in it. That actually, I think leads me to a slightly related question.

My question is in the book you discuss how monogamy is just as valid as non-monogamy in terms of a relationship structure. I'm curious to hear your thoughts about why do you think it is that so many people, especially people in these online spaces or community spaces who, as they discuss non-monogamy, tend to put down monogamous relationships?

Lola: I think that there is a lot with monogamy that gets encouraged. That's actually not very great for monogamous people either. There's lots of different misconceptions about whether or not the amount of jealousy someone feels represents how much they love you. There's all sorts of different things that get tacked onto non-monogamy that people don't necessarily challenge. There are definitely people who are trying to challenge that within non-monogamy. There's a book called How to not die alone, which is really great and really challenges some of the dating myths that monogamous people often have.

I feel like people who stumble onto polyamory, maybe they haven't really done any of that. Their exposure to polyamory is their first real challenge of some of these things. They then assume that polyamory is in and of itself a challenge of misogyny, a challenge of all of these other things that they've tacked on with monogamy and that monogamy is in and of itself bad because it's connected to all these things. It's similar to when somebody is raised within the church or raised within a religion and then moves away from that religion and then just thinks that that whole religion is bad and evil and wrong and doesn't really have a nuanced belief.

It's a response to some of the very valid frustrations and angers they have with what they've been taught. I absolutely understand that. Sometimes goes a little bit too far just like sometimes people can be super anti-religious to the point where it's like, if you say, "Oh, bless you." They're like, "Ah." It's like, you don't need to. You have valid anger about this issue, but you don't need to dislike everybody under this whole umbrella because it's actually a very wide umbrella. I think maybe I have the benefit of my great grandma is somebody that I admired and loved very much.

She was this amazing woman who had 10 children. When the youngest of her children was about three, her husband died. She had to raise all of them on her own. She picked tobacco for a living. She was an amazing woman, and she never remarried. She always said I'm still married. Before she died, she said she missed her husband. Now, I obviously don't know her private business. I don't know if she was really unhappy or happy with the fact that she never ended up in another relationship, but that is a key example of monogamy in the fullest way working, maybe in a way that we might challenge and say, "You don't actually have to be alone for so much of your life. You could remarry."

It would be silly for me to think monogamy doesn't work when I have that key example in my life of it very clearly working. I think that people just, they have an understandable, frustrated response with what society has taught them, and they associate that with just all monogamy. I also think that if you are being told all the time, "This doesn't work, this doesn't work, this doesn't work," you're going to have a very defensive response of like, "Well, no, you don't work actually." I think that they just get really like, "No, I'm going to actually turn this truck around and tell you that you don't work and that you are wrong actually."

There's lots of examples from previous societies. Sexual monogamy is quite new, and historically men, and I've said this before, even in marriages, have had the freedom to cheat however they want. This very idea of two people being purely sexually monogamous for the rest of their lives and romantically monogamous and romance being given a thing we should care about in relationships is very new. There's plenty of examples to pull on from the past of people not being fully monogamous to also bring up and say, "Eh," because you get very frustrated when people act as though sexual and romantic monogamy had been the tradition for all of human existence. You are the one who's doing something crazy.

I think a lot of it it's just defensiveness. I understand it. I just don't think it should get to the point where we're disparaging people who are monogamous or who decide that monogamy is for them. It's not something that people always choose because they're too jealous or what have you. It can be something that somebody is just like, in the same way, that some people want to live in the city. Some people don't. Neither one is necessarily better than the other.

Dedeker: Very well said and very eloquently said. I love that you make that comparison to someone who's deconstructing religion or coming to terms with a religious upbringing. I do think that sometimes when folks discover a form of nonmonogamy that works well for them, I see people go through what I call a teenager phase around it. I say that because I went through it myself. I think all of us on the podcast went through it as well, which is the combination of, “Oh, I found this thing that really works for me. It's very exciting. That means I know everything about relationships and what's going to make a relationship work or not work, and also I hate my parents so they don't understand but in this case, my parents are monogamy or the culture at large.”

There is I think, like you said, this very strong defensive pushback, which I do think as people are deconstructing some of those ideas can be helpful. I know. I also went through deconstruction with religion and religious upbringing and did have to go through that phase of, “Oh, wow, all of this is so toxic and so terrible, and I really need to push back against it and be critical for the first time in my life,” after I've never been allowed to really be critical.

Then for me, both feelings about religion and feelings about monogamy/nonmonogamy did shift, and maybe at the risk of putting a value judgment on it, maybe mature a little bit. The thing that does concern me, and I think you do touch on this, is I feel like I'm okay with individuals doing that. I'm like, “Sure, that's part of people's process and part of people's journey. Hopefully, they're not being too mean to other human beings.” I do sometimes see other educators in this space still leaning hard into that, “Oh, gosh, are the monos okay? Or oh, the monos are so twisted and messed up, look at all these wild things that they believe and these backward things that they do.”

Can you talk about that a little bit, about maybe how it hits a little bit different when it's still in educational spaces that we're getting that messaging?

Lola: I think that it's especially hard because if somebody is an educator or if somebody is elevated somewhat in the community, and they're practicing this behavior, then it becomes difficult to see that because you know that other people are giving that more validity. I can understand to a certain extent, feeling that way of wanting to react to different things and just be really frustrated with society. I really do understand that. I really do think that there are things that should be challenged about monogamy.

I think that you just have to really think about who is this for. I think sometimes, there's a general rule about the internet in that some things that people write maybe should have gone on a Live Journal or blog or their personal journal, and not out to the general public. I've even noticed a change in my approach to things because, before then, I wasn't really aware. I was shouting into the void. I didn't care what I posted because I was just like, “I'm mad.”

I look back at my Facebook memories now and I'm so angry about everything and so activated and my nervous system is a wreck. I'm just spreading that anxiousness everywhere because I don't really know or have any other outlet for it. If I had the ability to look back, I would go, “Okay, I'm frustrated. I'm angry. Where's the right container for this? Is the right container for this public?” Especially when you're taking screenshots of stuff and that can maybe get back to that person and they can maybe feel humiliated like, is this the right container for that? Is this going to actually get us to a point where people are actually being critical of some of the aspects of monogamy that they should be critical of?

I think that it's just about thinking that. I hate to be that way because it's not that I necessarily think that people should over-examine everything they post because that is something that's equally impossible. Trying to please everybody with every post, trying to make sure you cover every nuance, and the expectation that you should isn't really fair. Just be mindful of the fact that yes, you're pissed off. Yes, you want to vent but is this going to help? Is this the right container for that?

I do think sometimes, I've had to unfollow, I've had to mute accounts where I know people are venting and they have a really good reason to vent and they have a really good reason to be upset. Me reading that isn't fixing anything. It's just making me upset. I feel less of an urge to use the internet as a vessel for my annoyance because I now realize that that spreads. Even as much as I wish that it didn't, it does spread to other people. That isn't necessarily going to get me the thing that I want, which is more connection to people.

If I want more friends to reach out to me and talk to me, I don't really want to have everything I post be some really angry thing all the time. I have had conversations with my friends later on where they're like, “Yes, I've seen the difference,” and it can be intimidating. It can be like, "I don't want to piss you off." hat's something that's worth really thinking about, especially online, especially within the communities that you have, what you're putting out there, how does it affect you and how does it affect others?

Dedeker: I love that. I love changing. Thinking about that from, “Oh, I'm just dumping whatever I want into this bottomless void where there's no consequences or where it's just going to be dissipated into the ether,” is very different from thinking about it. I'm walking into a room full of human beings and just shouting this in their faces and thinking about what that's going to get me in the end. I love that.

Jase: Yes, that idea of even if it's an online community, it is still a community, and thinking of it that way is great. Through all of this, I was just pulling up our discord server for our Patreon supporters. One of the things that I really liked about it is the fact that there's so many different channels where people talk about other things. There's different topics about different types of video games or board games or about parenting or crafts, all sorts of different things so that people can both talk about relationships and other things as well.

I think that's really cool, and I wish that more communities had that where it spreads out a little bit more like that. It’s almost like you can go off into the separate room to talk to people who share your interest or maybe who share your struggle. I think that's the other challenge in a lot of online communities is when everything's in one thread, like the way Facebook organizes things. It's like you get whiplash going from someone venting about how angry they are about patriarchy, and the next person posting about how happy they are in their new quad that all moved in together, and then the next one talking about how they're struggling with enforcing a boundary.

It's just all over the place. I can't keep up with this. It's nice having little smaller, more focused sections within that. Lola, we want to go on and ask you a bunch more questions. This is so fantastic, but we're going to take a quick break to talk about some ways that people can support this show and help keep this information and this community coming to everybody out there in the world.

Emily: I wanted to discuss something that I found really impressive about the book and that a lot of other nonmonogamy books out there don't necessarily touch on, which is that it's normal to feel nonmonogamy, especially at the beginning, is disorienting and is fundamentally changing the trajectory of your life maybe. I think a lot of books out there really pivot to say all of those feelings that you're having, they're your problem. You need to fix them, and you need to figure out the best way in which to do that.

You talk about how that may not be helpful advice to people who are neurodivergent or who are anxious because they potentially don't know how to do those things or they haven't been given tools to do those things. Can you talk about that a little bit and also, what instead is a more helpful response for people who are feeling jealousy or anger, or disorientation?

Lola: I think that it makes complete sense if you're raised within a mono-centric culture, and you've known monogamy all your life, and you've literally been thinking about, depending on who you are, maybe thinking about who you would marry and playing those games as a child. Every story that you've been told your whole life is a story of a monogamous relationship or features one monogamous relationship, if not more. To go from that to suddenly changing and deciding, “Oh, I'm going to counteract all of that and I'm going to be nonmonogamous now.” Is going to cause you anxiety even if you're not a generally anxious person.

It's going to make you a little bit anxious because it's something new. Also because you're basically going against all of the things you've been told your whole life are true about love and are true about relationships. Relearning that is going to come with some fear. The thing about it is that when we learn about monogamy, we aren't actually in monogamous relationships. When we start learning about monogamy, where maybe there's a little bit of a joke about how you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or something like that in kindergarten or things like that, but you're not really in a relationship. You get a lot of practice. You get a lot of ways to think about things before you even start.

What you're doing when you try to open your relationship, or when you try non-monogamy is you're basically going into the fast lane without ever having driven before. It's a lot, it's a lot for anybody. I feel like 9 out of 10 columns that I write are giving people permission to feel anxious because they feel like they read a lot of books. Sometimes they try to prepare as much as possible, and all of that, very much like any mental health advice, you could sit all day on Instagram and read a million posts about anxiety, that doesn't mean you won't have a panic attack.

Reading all of this stuff makes you think I'm prepared, I'm ready, I know exactly what to do. When you're in the middle of your nervous system being completely thrown off balance, especially if you've lived your whole life with your nervous system off balance, or you have never even had a balanced nervous system for your entire life, you're going to feel disoriented. That is completely understandable and normal. I would find it odd if somebody didn't feel disoriented. I think that just saying, oh, you just have to figure it out on your own is ridiculous.

Emily: Do more internal work.

Lola: There's a rational part of that where that comes from in that people can't make you happy to a certain extent. You shouldn't give all of your personal agency and responsibility to every single human being. You shouldn't completely just become helpless. That's not what we're saying, but there is also an understanding that over time, this will get better because of the relational connections that you have with people. We are relational human beings. As much as I'm a super introvert and didn't find any of the lockdowns that difficult personally, even I am a relational person.

We have to learn through relationships. We have to learn that our partners are still going to be there and aren't going to run away after seeing them be there in the same way that if you have anxiety, sometimes you have to learn that you're not going to die from a panic attack by surviving them and going through them and learning how to cope with some of that, but some of it is sitting in discomfort. I just think that telling people like, "Oh, well, it's, it's your problem to figure out."

I understand where that comes from and I certainly don't want people to just give up their agency because I do think there's too much of that sometimes. Everybody has to control themselves to protect my feelings at all costs. I don't necessarily agree with that either, but I do think that just saying, "Oh, well, you'll figure it out," without saying, "Actually, it's very normal for you to feel this way. You will learn. Your nervous system will learn to adapt. You're probably going to freak out, be prepared to freak out and understand that it's not abnormal. This is your brain trying to help you survive. That's the key thing."

I think if you understand that your brain is trying to just help you survive and understand how it's trying to help you survive and understand a little bit about how your nervous system works, that is way more helpful than just going, "Well, you just deal with it on your own because it's your responsibility because they're your feelings."

Dedeker: I really love that. I do think a lot of the work that I do with clients, especially around nervous system stuff is changing that narrative where I do think people can get to a place where, "Okay, logically, totally on board. Totally get why I'm safe in this situation. Everything's above board. My partner's not violating any agreements. Totally fine and also I'm still freaking out. I hate my own brain or I hate my own nervous system or I hate these weird parts of me." I think a lot of my work that I do with people is almost like-- It's weird to say it this way, but like rekindling that friendship between yourself and those parts of you that are trying to keep you safe.

It needs to be this more gentle, more compassionate dialogue with those parts of you rather than just trying to throw it in the garbage or want to put it in a box and square it away. I've also definitely been there and I've felt that frustration but I really like putting that emphasis on just reminding people that there are very good reasons why you're having the reactions that you're having.

Lola: People, I think feel so frustrated because they know it's illogical. They're like, "I know my partner won't leave me, I know this," and it's like yes. Somebody who's terrified of flying knows that air travel is the safest form of travel. That doesn't matter to them when they feel what they feel. You just have to give yourself a little bit of leeway and a little bit of permission to be afraid. It is a difficult balance because if polyamory really isn't for you, then I do think you will also experience discomfort. It's just about being able to sit a little bit in it and see what happens eventually, but you're never going to get to that point where you can sit comfortably in it if the entire time you're just beating yourself up.

Dedeker: Yes, definitely.

Emily: You talk a lot in the book about relationship check-ins, which is definitely one of our big things on this show as well. We've created a model for relationship check-ins called RADAR. I really liked a lot of the questions that you had regarding your relationship check-ins as well. Can you talk about what your specific model of relationship check-ins looks like and why it's so important to have them?

Lola: I think that one of the things that's really important when it comes to relationship check-ins is the reason why you should have them. If you only check in when something is going wrong, then you learn that having a discussion with your partner is a reason to get freaked out. This is where I've messed up and where I haven't really had check-ins. I've luckily been previously with somebody who was really compassionate towards me and knew that I needed to be asked about how I was if I was just being short or randomly weird. Instead of getting mad at me about that was like, "Okay, something's going on, let's have a talk about it."

Those talks were really anxiety-provoking for me and I didn't want to have them. I had a really hard time with confrontation. I learned from a very young age that confrontation was not safe, no matter how much I loved or cared for that person. I loved and cared for people growing up who a second we had confrontation it became sometimes a life-altering thing. It became very difficult. I could have yelling. I could yell, I could call names, I could have really big confrontations, I could do. Those small confrontations or just bringing a little bit of vulnerability to the table and saying, "This is upsetting me, I want this to change," was a huge struggle for me.

Unfortunately, before the partner that I mentioned, I had other partners who didn't really take that seriously so that just further compounded the idea that if I bring out something to the table that I'm upset about, it won't be taken seriously. This impacted all of my relationships, my friendships as well. I cut off friendships because I just didn't believe that telling them that they upset me, that they would listen to me. I just thought, "Oh, I better just end this." For me, it came from doing it wrong. It came from luckily having a partner that was compassionate enough to see when I was upset or to notice that and to ask about it and not take it personally.

Then from that, I wanted a general check-in where we would then say, "Oh, how are you feeling about this? How are you feeling about that?" I made it a little bit more formalized in the book just because I find that it doesn't have to be super formal. I find that at least having that as a guideline is really helpful, but it completely came from me getting it wrong. I was so afraid of that idea of really talking about things or really bringing to the table when I was upset.

I think that getting used to that, getting used to those discussions and them not all being terrible and bad. Making them a little bit with a start and an end, because I do think sometimes, and in many cases, another thing that I got wrong a lot was deciding that I couldn't go to bed until we had had this discussion because I needed a resolution for this before I went to sleep or I wouldn't be able to sleep, and that's wrong. You can sit there for 10 hours and talk about your relationship ad nauseam.

I'm at the moment single, but I think in the future going forward, I would definitely just make a regular practice of just asking them how they feel about things, just because now I don't find that quite so challenging. Even if I do have a partner who finds that challenging, I know from experience that somebody approaching me with being calm, not taking things personally, being able to just say, "I think something is wrong," or even if you don't, just saying, "I'm wondering how you feel," that can make a world of difference.

That's another good example of why I think you have to solve things in relationships. I couldn't work that out on my own, no matter how much I read. It didn't matter until I had actually experienced it.

Dedeker: We do get a question about this all the time in response to our own check-in formula, where people will say, well, maybe acknowledge, "Yes, I totally have a history of getting very anxious around relationship check-ins or relationship talks, or I'm with a partner who's very avoidant about these things, or very avoidant about talking about uncomfortable topics or maybe we're both avoidant." What is your recommendation for folks? I do think sometimes folks can recognize, "Oh yes, I can see that there's been this pattern and I can see why we avoid talking about these things."

To get over the hump of actually getting to that ritual or actually creating the check-in or actually doing it on a regular basis sometimes feels insurmountable for people. Sometimes it's like the thing where it just keeps getting kicked down the road because of the fact that there's such a strong weight and force of that history and of those patterns. What do you recommend for folks for getting past that?

Lola: I think that the first thing I would say is that, as much as I don't always think text works well for everything, sometimes it can take the pressure off things a little bit. I know that that's a big thing for neurodivergent people. Sometimes talking by text or typing things out, is a lot easier for them. Sometimes it's easier for me, sometimes it creates more problems for me. If that is something, that would be helpful. You don't have to have a talk, sit down talk. If you want to schedule a chat, if you want to change the format a little bit that can help take some of the pressure off. I think expecting everyone to verbalize their emotional processing is sometimes unfair.

I do see some questions to the podcast where it seems like their decision to go into polyamory or their feeling of going into polyamory is this big thing for them, and they have all these feelings, and they want to process them, and they expect their partner to have all the same kind of feelings. When their partner doesn't, they get freaked out about it. They want their partner to have the same output of their emotions verbally. Not everybody will. Not everybody will feel like they want to talk for hours about their feelings. Some people process it very much internally, and that doesn't mean they're not thinking about it or that anything's wrong.

I think that keeping that in mind is really important, not expecting there necessarily to be a huge talk about everything. Sometimes there won't be because of the way different people process their emotions. Then I think you could always couple it with something that's like you have a signal, almost like a safe word to each other that everything's fine. You could do a specific emote on Facebook or something like you get an alarm every six months that says everything's fine.

You have a little bit of an emote. Then if you don't, you could also discuss, if everything's not fine, when we do the check-in, I will then talk to them, or I'll then make sure I mentioned it to them. It's not comforting for most people to get a message saying we need to talk. There is ways to go about that, that are less intimidating. Just understand that if you have a difficult conversation to have, it's going to be difficult, as much now as it is in three weeks. Sometimes, that is about sitting in the discomfort of biting the bullet a little bit, and waiting a little bit longer won't necessarily change that.

Jase: To go back to your book for a second, at the end of your book, you have this incredible list of relationship assumptions, and how they can contribute to the anxiety that person might have around their non-monogamous relationships. Could you maybe give our listeners a preview of some of those assumptions and maybe talk a little bit about how those can affect their relationships?

Lola: One of the good assumptions, or rather not so good assumptions, is that if your relationship is a good one, it should be able to conquer any depression or anxiety. That's particularly unhelpful because it puts a lot of pressure on both yourself and your partners to fix the situation. It's not to say that relationships don't help improve mental health, because I definitely do feel like they do and can. I think putting so much on a relationship to cure that is really unfair on both yourself and any partner that you have.

Another assumption is talking about sex and relationships makes you a clingy or needy person. I think that it's very easy to, especially when it comes to sex because we live in a society where it's stigmatized, and especially, particularly for women, if you act as though you have needs, that can get you made into a clingy or needy person. That also can bring you with baggage. That also can make you feel like if you talk about it, then you'll be interpreted as a clingy or needy person.

Even if you don't feel like you're particularly clingy or needy, the fact that people have told you that you shouldn't be talking about this brings with it the assumption that you will be seen this way or that you are. That's another unhelpful assumption. Then another one is experiencing jealousy means you have poor self-esteem. This is one that I feel is very common within polyamory communities. It's unhelpful because jealousy is sometimes very understandable. Sometimes it makes complete sense, and it doesn't have anything to do with your personal self-esteem.

One example that I give, because it's a personal example, is that if there's something you've really always wanted to do with your partner, say you've always wanted to show them a film or you've always wanted to go to a particular restaurant, and they do that with somebody else, you're going to feel a little bit jealous, especially if they've not really taken your need very seriously. It's not necessarily about you not having self-esteem. It's actually a sign of self-esteem to be upset that you have a need that hasn't been met and that somebody else is getting that. That can be quite painful to experience.

Jealousy isn't always about feeling insecure. Sometimes it is a very understandable reaction to a situation. There's lots of different assumptions at the end of the book that comes from also polyamory communities, come from monogamous communities, come from the general culture we live at large. I'd like to have a combination of those just because I do think that there are some assumptions within the polyamory community, some norms that need to be challenged.

The idea behind that is that if you see yourself thinking that you might be going, "Okay, maybe by thinking this, it's actually preventing me from being able to talk about things, preventing me from being able to go after even what I want," and you'll be able to challenge yourself a little bit more on that.

Dedeker: Well, this has been fantastic. Where can our listeners find more of you and your work? Also, where can people buy your book?

Lola: I have everything at nonmonogamyhelp.com. You can go to nonmonogamyhelp.com/book for all of the information about the book. It's available through Jessica Kingsley Publishers. I believe it's also available through Amazon. There should be some availability through local bookstores, you can always ask them to stock it. That would be really helpful as well. You can find the nonmonogamy help on Twitter @nonmonogamyhelp and on Instagram at @nonmonogamyhelp.