397 - My Partner Won’t Talk About the Future & Other Listener Questions

Full transcript available

Questions from our listeners!

We’re back with another Q&A episode addressing some of our listeners’ questions. Throughout this episode we’re discussing issues surrounding nesting with partners and different nesting styles, how to navigate different communication styles and narratives, future planning for new relationships to avoid accidental hierarchy, rediscovering a sexual relationship after long periods of not being sexual, and how to recognize when you might be polysaturated.

Throughout this episode we’re discussing the following:

Nesting woes

“My partner, meta and I are navigating nesting in a whole new way for us. Could you all talk about different styles of nesting? Specifically ones that involve having multiple homes?”

Nesting together can be difficult, so we go over some different nesting perspectives and styles, including living apart together, nomadic nesting, and co-living/commune situations.

Different narratives and communication styles

“My girlfriend and I are very in love and currently long-distance. I feel excited about building a future together (moving to be in the same city, living together etc.) but she's not much of a planner and finds thinking about the future hard. I don't think these are steps to be taken soon or lightly, but I think this imbalance is causing my jealousy to flare up! 

Tl;dr I think I'm getting attached to one version of the future (which involves life-building with her) but feel competitive with her other possible futures!”

Certainty about the future can be stressful, especially if one person needs a lack of planning to feel secure. We discuss some ways to address the future that may alleviate some of the stress for everyone involved.

“I'm a straight man, have been calling myself poly since February but have realistically leaned toward non-monogamy for most of my dating life. I currently have no other partners besides my primary, while she is part of a throuple involving a man and a woman. I am trying to make peace with the insecurities that come with my female partner generally getting more attention than me (which I recognize is probably just a fact of poly life). In addition, I'm not particularly kinky and do not consider myself queer, so I've been having a challenging time finding community as a straight poly man. It has been getting better, but I find that I still feel a lot of insecurity about this, even though I know this is right for me. All hosts, but particularly Jase as the male host, how did you handle these insecurities when you started out? Do you have any practical tips for finding a poly community you fit into when just starting out? Thank you all!”

Discovering community is an integral part of our lives, and overcoming insecurities is difficult, so we discuss finding community that de-emphasizes dating as a good way to start out, how men are socialized to be more predatory and how to combat that, and more.

Unintentional hierarchy, demisexuality, and polysaturation

“How can I prevent new partners from feeling secondary? I have no intention of a primary/secondary structure (I more closely follow relationship anarchy) but I have a partner I’ve been with for 5 years and I understand why new partners may feel secondary, so I’d love advice on how to help them feel secure without exclusivity. Also, is there a way to cohabitate without creating feelings of primary/secondary?”

When monogamy is our social norm, unlearning certain behaviors and interactions related to couples privilege and hierarchy is challenging. We have some communication tips to open up that dialogue with a new partner and talk about some other insight and perspectives in these situations.

“How do I go about having sex again after a prolonged period of not doing so? 

As a demisexual, I just have not been feeling very sexual for a bit. I have negotiated two beautiful relationships with new partners this year, and we have yet to jump into the sexual realm. 

I am now feeling the desire to be sexual with them, but I just don’t know where to start. I’ve never been here before, where I just feel stuck! Do we just schedule time for sex? Where do we begin? Ahhh! Help!”

Although none of the hosts are demisexual themselves, during this episode we discuss some ways to rediscover what being sexual might look like for someone, how leaning into structure may help or not help, negotiating together, setting aside time for sex without expectations, and more.

“How do you all recognize when you’re polysaturated?

How much of it is lack of interest in additional relationships because you feel fulfilled with your current relationship landscape? How much is being aware that you’re at capacity and can’t offer the time and energy needed to establish and maintain a relationship? Does it depend on what type of relationship you’re considering? For instance, would you describe yourself as polysaturated when you might be open to a comet or FWB, but not open to a more enmeshed type of relationship?”

For this patreon question we have a conversation about semantics, how a full life should include relationships that aren’t romantic, an rubric to evaluate if you’re saturated or not, and more.

Transcript

This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.

Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're back again answering questions submitted to us by our Patreon community. This week, we will be discussing the challenges of navigating, nesting with a partner, finding a community, ways to prevent a partner from feeling secondary, and much more. If you would like to submit a question and get some personalized feedback, I don't even want to call it advice, because we're not your therapists, and we'll talk about that more in a second here. If you have something specific in your life that you would like to have discussed on the show, becoming a patron and posting a question on one of our monthly requests for questions is a great way to do that.

Dedeker: I've been really enjoying doing these Q&A episodes.

Jase: I have too.

Dedeker: I think I was talking about this pretty recently, but I'm all about the intersection of ideals with reality. I feel like on our show, although we try to give very practical and actionable advice as best as we can, sometimes it's also really helpful to hear from people's real-world experiences, and the stuff that they're bumping into or running into. I love being able to speak to that, where it's not just talking about an ideal situation in a vacuum, but how these things play out when the rubber meets the road.

Jase: Yes. Going along with what we were saying before too, our quick disclaimer that we always want to make with these is that one, we're not your therapist. Also, you know your life and your decisions better than anyone else does, even if it is your therapist. Ultimately, make the decisions that are right for you, whether we say so or not. Then two is that we're only getting this tiny little snippet of these stories. It's possible that we totally misread it. We do our best to try to get a sense of what the context is around these, but the point of it more is to have some things to think about, some things to look at, things to consider. With that, let's just get right into it.

Emily: Yes. Our first question is about nesting. This person asks, "My partner, Metta, and I are navigating nesting in a whole new way for us. Could you all talk about different styles of nesting, specifically ones that involve having multiple homes?"

Dedeker: Could we really quickly define nesting for people?

Emily: Oh, for sure.

Dedeker: Just in case they're not sure.

Emily: That's a good question. I think nesting, immediately, what comes to mind for me is living in a home of some sort with a partner, although I know that the two of you were nomadic, really, truly for quite a few years, and didn't have a very specified home base. Yet, I would argue, whenever you came together, you were nesting together, wherever that might be, but it wasn't in one specific location at all times, although now that has changed.

Dedeker: I think the definition is also a little bit slippery based on the ways that people use it because sometimes people use the term nesting partner to just refer to this is the person that I'm cohabitating with, just living with. Other people use it to refer to it's not just about cohabitation, but it's also about we are going to entwine finances, maybe we will choose to get legally entwined in some way. I do think there's maybe a little bit of wiggle room with the definition, but I think the overlap tends to be that we are building a nest, a physical nest together, as in we're building a place where we live together and creating some kind of cohabitated home base.

Jase: I also would add that it's been a little more intentional. We're intentionally building a space for us versus maybe we're roommates who live with other roommates too, that you could say, "Oh, we're nesting as well," but maybe nesting even in that context would mean we now share a bedroom, or we're doing something to more intentionally build a space that's meant for us. I feel like I can, it all just depends on context, and you could use it a bunch of different ways, but that's what comes to mind at least, if someone were to say nesting or when they wouldn't.

Emily: This person is specifically asking about styles of nesting that involve having multiple homes. It's the opposite of that, but I thought immediately of Kiana, our researcher, who has de-nested away from her partner and lives in a different home from her partner who she's married to. That, I think is a potential option for people that you have your own space. If that is the case, then maybe nesting would mean something entirely different than this more traditional idea of what it means and what I said at the beginning.

Dedeker: Sure. I think that can be distinguished a little bit though, from just we live in separate places. We may decide, yes, we live in separate places, but perhaps we're still going to choose to financially entangle when it comes to the care and upkeep of those places or paying the rent. I've definitely known some people who do that. I think that this is speaking to like nesting in a sense that's less about the physical, tangible, we're living together, but a little bit more about the system that we're living in.

I think to go to the opposite extreme is stuff you hear about with communes or co-living or intentional communities where people may choose to pool their resources. Instead of it being like, "Oh, we're all going to buy one home together." It's, "We're going to buy or rent multiple places, or maybe we even have the means to buy property with multiple structures on it for multiple people." Or I think maybe even the more informal version, which is just like, "I don't know, maybe we rent out two apartments or three apartments in the same building together or something like that." That can be our version of nesting within multiple living places.

Jase: An interesting dynamic to add to this one is that they're specifically saying my partner, my metamour, and I, implying that this is also a V type of relationship. Where their partner is dating both of them, but this person and their metamour-- I don't quite know the context of their relationship, but to make this question interesting, could assume that they're maybe not as closely entwined with each other, still probably close and still get along if they're asking this question at all, but maybe less so.

That question about multiple homes could also be something like, "How does our shared partner nest with both of us, and how do we navigate that in a way that feels fair too?" That's an interesting thing when you think about the finances of it, of say, maybe partner one, the question asker, has a place or could get a place, and then their metamour would have their own place. Then is it, "Okay, we work out a way so that I pay two-thirds of mine and metamour pays two-thirds of theirs. Then you shared partner pay one-third of each," because you don't have your own own place. That is an interesting question to bring up. Then, of course, that could be adjusted based on relative incomes of the different people and things like that as well. As a starting point for exploring that as an option could be interesting.

Emily: We know a person in our community who's been on the show before that lived for a long time with their metamour, and they nested together. They weren't in a romantic relationship, but they were friends, and they lived together. Now, they live with their shared partner as well as with one another, which is really interesting. I think that dynamic is fascinating how metamours can become so close that they decide to cohabitate, and then finally, everyone gets together in a more communal living situation.

Dedeker: I think what Jase was speaking to was, I guess what I've unofficially dubbed nomadic nesting, and that's because that was something I was doing actually for several years up until quite recently was both of my partners had a more established home base or more stable, consistent living situation, and I didn't necessarily, and so I nomaded back and forth between both of those. I think that there are pros and cons to that. I know for myself, actually, honestly, really enjoyed that because, for me, it was getting a little bit of that like I get to have two nests, and two home bases, and get to have a little bit of influence on both of them. That's really nice.

I would work out with each person essentially how the rent would work out, and what would seem fair based on everyone's relative income and how often I'm there and things like that. The cons being that, I don't know how to say this, but basically, the person whose apartment it is or whose home base it is, they do carry a little bit more influence overall on how the space is. For me, sometimes it's having to be a little bit more flexible about just fitting myself into their home, wanting there to be space there for me, obviously, but I wouldn't necessarily have the direct control over the space that I would if it was a place that I myself owned or if I was the main person on the lease.

To bring it back to the question asker, again, I don't know how many home bases are involved here, if it's two or three for each person or whatever, but I think an interesting question to ask is thinking about, do we want to create a situation where regardless of what home base we're at, there is some space for everyone? Maybe that involves for you, not only am I thinking about space for my partner when my partner's here, but also space for my metamour.

If my metamour wants to swing by or if the three of us are hanging out, this is going to be down to the type of polyamory or non-monogamy that you're practicing what everyone's comfortable with. I do think that's part of nesting is, it's not just about you come over and you're my guest, but it's like we're creating a little bit of a space together, and maybe the metamour gets invited into that a little bit. I don't know.

Jase: Yes, definitely, that giving some say, like you were saying, some kind of power over, this is how the place is structured, even just to a certain extent. If you have the means to. If they have their own room where they have control over what furniture and what stuff's in there. We never had that luxury of Dedeker has a whole room that I never touch when she's gone or something, that's not--

Dedeker: Wouldn't that be the dream though?

Jase: That would be cool, yes. It's your wing of the house, you can decorate that, whatever you wanted.

Jase: That would be cool.

Dedeker: Floor of the house would be ideal.

Jase: Oh, yes, yes. That would be fun.

Emily: Yes, that would be very cool.

Jase: Sorry, just to come back to that, I do think that idea of having some influence over the space, that's a really good note that you hit there, Dedeker, as a way to look at it of whatever those spaces are thinking about that. It's not just about having your stuff there or having a place to be, but also having some influence over how does this place feel, how do I shape this place, how do I help decorate this place? That kind of thing might make a big difference.

Dedeker: How do I take responsibility for cleaning this place?

Jase: That side too.

Dedeker: Also, I said, if I just go crash my partner's place and then leave, and they're always on the hook for cleaning up after me in the bathroom and stuff, or the kitchen or stuff like that.

Jase: Even repairs and maintenance potentially could be part of that as well.

Emily: Lots of logistical things to think about. All right, let's move on to our next question. My girlfriend and I are very in love and currently long-distance. I feel excited about building a future together, for example, moving to be in the same city, living together, et cetera, but she is not much of a planner and finds thinking about the future hard. I don't think these are steps to be taken sooner lightly, but I think this imbalance is causing my jealousy to flare up. They essentially also add this little note that I think I'm getting attached to one version of the future, which involves life-building with her, but I feel competitive with her other possible futures. Fascinating.

Jase: I love the idea that--

Dedeker: The multiverse.

Jase: Yes, I'm jealous or competitive about the other multiverse version, so that's great.

Dedeker: I just want to swoop in right away, just first before even responding to the actual question, just to affirm and validate this note that they include about, I feel like I'm getting attached to thinking about the future to one version of the future, and I think my jealousy is flaring up. I just want to validate that yes, I think knowing that my partner is committed to me enough that they want to be there in the future, and that we want to have a vision together, and we want to build something together, and using that as a place where you ground your sense of security, I think is totally legitimate. I think it totally makes sense why if all you're getting is question marks or avoidance or hesitation to talk about it, it could definitely bring up that freakout.

Jase: I was just going to say, I really can relate to this question really hard in the past, not in my current life, but for several years, feeling like I could never pin Dedeker down on anything about her future.

Dedeker: Moving target baby.

Jase: Yes. Because it was a big time of transition and exploring herself and trying to find her identity and stuff, there was a lot of things going on which I was understanding about and got, but also, it was really frustrating to be like, "I don't know what I can plan on." I don't know what I can think about or fantasize about, or even prepare for, or something because anytime, we try to have those conversations, her answer would be that "I just don't know. I can't think that far ahead. I really intentionally right now need to not feel like I'm on the hook for some particular plan," for her, at that time, that was really important. I just want to say, first of all, that I really can relate to that frustration and insecurity and stuff that can come up in that situation.

Emily: I think my partner and Dedeker also are very much chewers. For those of you who don't know what that is, we did an episode on chewers and spewers, which is essentially internal and external processing. I really also like to think about future planning and just spitballing, throwing some ideas out there, thinking about what could be, and it certainly doesn't need to be definitive. I think when you get into a situation with people that aren't as interested in doing that exploration in that way, and really have to think harder and longer about what it is that they want, and they don't want to necessarily voice that until it is very definitive in their mind.

To me, this almost seems like that situation potentially. I don't know. Future planning, perhaps this person just isn't that interested in it right now. They're not at a point in their life where future planning is something that does interest them, and that's okay, but I do get it. I don't know. Gosh, time may change that for sure, and maybe just at this particular moment in time, your partner may not be interested in that, which is too bad.

Dedeker: I think that that's a good point. I think that maybe even being able to bring a sense of both compassion and curiosity as to what's going on with your partner about not wanting to talk about the future because there could be so many reasons behind it. It could be everything from, "I'm just so overwhelmed right now because right now, I'm in the process of applying for a job or whatever, and so that's all I can think about.

I can't think about beyond the next few months or whatever."

All the way up to it could be like, "Oh, I have a pathological fear of the future." I don't know what it is but you can have some curiosity around that. Speaking of bringing curiosity and compassion, if your partner is open to it, you can create, I think the conditions for a conversation that maybe isn't as scary. As in, you can open up the channel for the two of you to talk about future dreams, goals might feel a little too concrete. Just the vision or the things that you would like or the things that you fantasize about, or things that you dream about, but the important thing being that in this conversation you're both very intentional about, "We're not going to make any decisions. We're not going to plan anything."

Also, no one's going to ask the other person, "Oh, well, how is this going to work?" "Oh, you have a dream of maybe going back to grad school, well, how's it going to work? Where do you think you're going to go? How you're going to pay for," don't even get into any of the logistics. It's literally just about let's share our dreams with each other and just get excited about that and think that's cool because the planning, the decision-making, the asking how can always happen later. I'm also wondering if maybe it's that with this partner who doesn't want to talk about it, it's just like, I'm not in a place to make decisions. I haven't thought about all the logistics of how I want the future to look, but they probably have some sense of what they would like in the near future. Very few of us are truly walking around in this completely present enlightened state where the only thing that exists is this present moment.

Even though I'm sure we would like to be a little bit more enlightened in that particular way. I think that could be challenging for the question to ask her because if you're already feeling a little insecure or a little jealous, it might be tempting to want to grasp at something secure. To grasp at something solid. Can I at least get my partner to commit to, "Ooh, this is where it's going to be in the next five years?" I think this type of conversation would definitely be a stretch and a learning curve. I do think that if the two of you could hit that magic sauce type of conversation, it could actually set you up for much better conversations in the future when it is talking more about things that are more concrete.

Jase: I don't know if there was anything in particular that I did at the time that helped with this, but I will say that looking back on it, that time did lead to a lot of change and exploration for me of myself during that. For example, going through first being more uncomfortable and then eventually becoming more comfortable with living on my own, and having more of my own space. Not necessarily tying so much of my sense of identity and security to future plans, which is very much the habit that we're taught. It's that idea of a secure, meaningful relationship.

Emily: You got ta settle down.

Jase: Yes. You got to settle down, do the relationship escalator-type stuff. Even if we are intellectually aware that that's not necessarily something we want to do, or that we think makes relationships valuable, that programming is still in there. I do know that that was something for me that it was unfortunately a painful process of letting go of some of that because there's that frustration, and not wanting that to affect my relationship and wanting to try to be more at the moment. I do find that for me, that was actually a really helpful thing that has helped all of my dating life since then to have more of a sense of being able to, I guess, be present to what's there rather than trying to even subconsciously shape it into a particular thing.

I don't know how helpful that is to this person right now, but maybe if you listen again to this episode in two or three years, you'll be like, "Oh yes, totally. I get that too." I don't know. Hopefully, that is helpful though, and maybe gives another way to think about it too of this is a chance to do some more of that deprogramming if you think that might be what's going on.

Emily: Shall move on?

Dedeker: Yes, shall we jump onto the next one?

Emily: Yes.

Dedeker: I'm a straight man, have been calling myself poly since February, but have realistically leaned toward non-monogamy for most of my dating life. I currently have no other partners besides my primary. While she is part of a throuple involving a man and a woman, I'm trying to make peace with the insecurities that come with my female partner generally getting more attention than me, which I recognize is probably just a fact of poly life.

In addition, I'm not particularly kinky and do not consider myself queer, so I've been having a challenging time finding community as a straight poly man. It's been getting better, but I find that I still feel a lot of insecurity about this even though I know this is right for me. All hosts, but particularly Jase is the male host, how did you handle these insecurities when you started out? Do you have any practical tips for finding a poly community you fit into when just starting out? Well, Jase you are a man. Not a straight man, but you are a man. As the resident guest expert on men, what's your thoughts?

Jase: I'm the guest. I love that. That means you guys take care of the next episodes for the next few months.

Dedeker: You've been a guest this whole time actually, it's just a very long-running guest host.

Emily: Wow.

Jase: That's why the credits of Multiamory are always starring Emily Matlack, Dedeker Winston, and special guest Jase.

Emily: A special appearance by. Amazing.

Jase: Yes. Then at the end, it's like Jase, courtesy of MGM Records or whatever.

Emily: Cool.

Jase: Okay. Great question and I think that it is something that-- is part of this even bigger question of finding community. It is a hard thing, because on the one hand, if the communities that you're looking at are very meeting people to date centric, I do find there tends to be a lot of resistance or skepticism of any single man who enters those sorts of communities. I don't think that people are wrong to be skeptical of that, even though it really sucks, and it hurts people like this, and it's not fair, and it's a bummer.

I also understand why, because there is this more predatory way of being that men are socialized to do. Anyway, just that, so saying, first of all, if it's a community that is very dating and meeting people for that purpose-focused, I think that's not going to be a great community to start with, to try to build your community. What I mean by that is if it's like this is a meetup group for poly cocktails or something like that, I would say that's not the best type of community to join as a straight man or just as a single man at all, really.

I know you're not single, so you have that going for you here, actually, but if you're going without your partner, sometimes that can be a little challenging. In that way, I would say anything you can do to find groups that are more focused on discussion or maybe a related hobby or something like that. If you can find something that lines up with your interests. Like if it's board games or tabletop games or even dance or any number of things. If there's some other interest too, that can go a long way, because then it's not that there's this pressure of, "Well, what do I think that you want from me?"

Instead can be a little bit more about, "Oh, we're here to do this other thing." Whether it's discussion or whatever, and we get to meet people and build some relationships while we're doing that. That tends to be my starting advice for people looking really, to anyone, not just straight men, but to anyone looking to join a poly community, is to really steer away from dating-focused groups at first. Instead try to find ones that, if anything de-emphasize that for the purpose of building some of that community first.

That when you go into those other spaces, there are some people who are like, "Oh yes, I do know this person. I know this person's a real human being, and I've had conversations with them, and they're not just here thinking that they're going to get laid easily or something like that."

Emily: Yes. I love what you said about finding common interests in other ways because I think we've had people on the show discussing the fact that polyamory shouldn't necessarily be like the one thing that you have in common. The most interesting thing about you, and rather you should be trying to find common things that occur outside of that. I think in terms of dating, that's tended to be where I find the most interesting people in communities. I realized because I live in Los Angeles, I have won the postcode lottery as Lola Phoenix said in her episode with us.

I get that, but I do think that there are a lot of people out there who are maybe interested in being polyamorous or treading those waters. If you find things that you are also interested in doing, you may become fortunate enough to find other people who are interested in potentially dating you at some point or another. Then it doesn't become that predatory question of, "I'm coming here to date to find someone to do those things with, but instead I'm going to hang out with people to involve myself in yoga, dance, a community theater, whatever." That's a great place to meet people let me tell you stuff like that.

Jase: Yes, it's true.

Emily: I think there are so many options out there that don't necessarily require finding a community specifically polyamorous.

Jase: To jump back into just the community thing more generally, I think something else to keep in mind, and this was advice that my mom gave me in high school. I don't think really sank in for 10 years after that, but was this idea of realizing that basically, everyone else is just as worried about what you think about them as you are in what they think about you, and this idea of-- the way this applies to these social situations is that it's awkward and weird and scary for everybody? Maybe more so for some people than others but that's there. That's there for all of it. If you're able to go into some of those with as much of a mental shift as possible of go to some of these events, and my goal here is one, I just want to find people who are interesting to talk to, and my objective is not any dating at all to start out first.

Two is going in and my goal is I want to come away where other people felt good, that they felt good about themselves, they felt heard, they felt listened to. Things like asking more questions, and letting them speak more than you do. Things like that. Sometimes when we want to make friends it's like if you go to a professional networking event, and everyone's just going on and on about all their accomplishments and why they're so great, and you see that one person who goes around and just seems really interested in what everyone else is doing.

That's the person that everyone remembers from that event and wants to connect with.

I was just at a networking event and there's this one guy who's that's become his thing. He's just the guy that knows everybody and everybody knows him because he's just so engaging and so giving and so generous with his time and connecting people and really interested in what you're doing. Just right away starts from a place of, "I like you, and I want to help you, how can I help you?"

Emily: It's lovely.

Jase: That's work contexts, but I do think there's parts of that that can get applied in these joining a community, building a community thing is doing that, and it also just feels good. Even then you come away feeling, "Yes, that was any more positive experience, than hoping someone likes me." It's more about, "Let me try to make people feel good."I know this is just general social advice and I'm not always good at taking this advice because I get very nervous around people that I don't know, but it is really helpful when I can remind myself and when I can go in with that mindset from the start makes the whole situation actually less stressful and easier, at least in my experience.

Emily: Well, before we move on with additional Patreon questions, we wanted to take a second to talk to you about some of the ways that you can support our show. We have loved doing the show for these last eight years and giving you all this content out there for free, but to do that, we have ads, and we have sponsors. If you can take the time to listen to some of them, we would really appreciate it if there's anything out there that you are interested in, go check it out, because it helps directly support this show.

Jase: We're back. Our next question here is about secondary partners. How can I prevent new partners from feeling secondary? I said it's about secondary partners, but it's about not having them feel secondary.

Emily: Not feeling secondary.

Jase: How can I prevent new partners from feeling secondary? I have no intention of a primary, secondary structure, I'm more closely following relationship anarchy, but I have a partner I've been with for five years and I understand why new partners may feel secondary. I'd love advice on how to help them feel secure without exclusivity. Maybe we'll come back to this, but also, is there a way to cohabitate without creating feelings of primary secondary? I guess I'm assuming they mean cohabiting with the primary partner because that also adds that extra level of primary feeling.

Emily: With their partner, yes, because there it says that they align more closely with relationship anarchy. This is always the question. How do you make sure that you don't make somebody else feel secondary? I think we've talked about that a lot on the show, it is in the approach of how you treat the other person that it's never about, well, I have all of these prescribed things that my one partner gets to do simply because they've been around longer.

Instead, you also might be invited to that work thing in addition to or in place of my partner who I've been with for a longer period of time. I think that can be included in little ways like, "Oh, yes, I'm definitely going to put you on my Facebook or TikTok profile." Is there a TikTok profile picture?

Dedeker: No, Emily, no.

Emily: I don't know, guys, I'm old, it's fine. Things like that, and not just limiting the scope in which a person is out in your life to only the person who has been around the longest. I think all of those little things make a big impact over a period of time for sure.

Dedeker: Yes. Again, I think this is a tricky thing because of the fact that of course, if you're choosing to cohabit or nest with someone that means that there is automatically at least a logistical hierarchy of just by default we're going to spend more time together because we live together. Chances are if I get sick, even if my partner is busy working, or whatever, but I'm still hanging out with him, the person that I live with. I think probably the first place that I would go, well, is this the first place, actually here's the first place that I would go.

Emily: Second place I would go.

Dedeker: The first place that I would go would be to ask your partner, "How do I help you feel secure without exclusivity?" Ask them these are great questions even when you're still getting to know each other when you're still developing. Great questions to ask because you don't know. There could be just some assumptions about what makes your partner feel more secure, but there may be something different. I think asking them about how you can help them feel more loved, more available, a safe person, someone who's going to be there even within this particular context while you're, let's say, living with somebody else is really important.

Second, place that I would go, maybe first place, I don't know I'm getting all confused. I think that it is important Emily talked about to check yourself. Do the best that you can to get real with yourself about are there things that I am doing by default that I'm not even thinking about because I have this nesting partner. Without even thinking about it if my nesting partner is like, "I don't know, actually, I thought I was going to go out tonight, but I think I'm going to stay in tonight," and you're like, "Oh, great, I'll stay in too, I'll also cancel my plans."

Do you just do that by default, even if your partner didn't even straight up ask you? I think that there can be a lot of little things, little subtle things and it's hard because our culture is so set up to encourage this kind of behavior of treating your cohabiting partner as the most important relationship in your life, therefore-

Emily: I just want to say--

Dedeker: It’s what everything defaults to.

Emily: This person doesn't say that their partner five years cohabits with them, but they still-

Dedeker: They asked about cohabitation though. So that’s why I want to rope that in.

Emily: That's true. Is there a way to cohabitate without creating feelings? Yes, I guess I had thought immediately, like, "Oh, maybe they're thinking of cohabitating," and just this is abstract but who knows? Who knows this is good advice for anyone, cohabiting or not?

Jase: I would love to give some very different advice to consider as well.

Dedeker: Oh, we'll do it.

Jase: Real difference.

Dedeker: Whether it is three of us.

Jase: I want to approach this actually from an opposite direction because this is something that I struggled with a lot for many years and it sometimes still comes up. What I found is that sometimes in putting effort into not having this sense of hierarchy where my one relationship gets to control the other or always takes precedence over it, that we can sometimes feel like, "Oh, well," I need to show this new person who has maybe only been dating a few months, or less or a fairly short amount of time relatively, that they have just as much priority or power in my life or whatever that is, or that they have the potential for that.

I actually think sometimes we can cause more problems by doing this, because if you think about it, you're saying, "Hey, look, you're just as important to me as this other person. There's no hierarchy here, you're equal to me," but in practice, you have five years of history and trust and consistency and inside jokes, and all of these things that make our relationship special. I think that when we try to almost accelerate this second relationship up to that speed, it's not genuine.

It doesn't have that same foundation. It's not the same. I think it's something worth considering as another approach might be to try not to over-promise this new person in terms of what primary feeling of a partner they will be right away, and instead let it be something that is a little more casual and more new probably like your other relationship was when you first started dating. Just to throw that out, there is something to think about. I actually think I caused more hurt by trying to accelerate that second relationship to that same level, than if I had just been like, "No, I don't have a ton of time and this isn't going to feel the same as my other relationship."

That's not because that other one will always take precedence over you or because they can make rules that control you, but just because I've known them longer, in the same way that I trust a friend that I've known for years and years more than I trust a new friend that I made, even if I do really like this new friend, and I'm into hanging out with them. Just something to consider and explore if that might be something that could apply in your life too.

Dedeker: It's a hot take, Jase.

Jase: I know real hot takes today. Hot out of the press.

Dedeker: Hot off the grid.

Emily: We don't all have to agree. I think that's fine.

Dedeker: I know. I think that's a very valid point.

Emily: I think it's good advice. Our penultimate question is how do I go about having sex again, after a prolonged period of not doing so? As a demisexual, I just have not been feeling very sexual for a bit. I have negotiated two beautiful relationships, new partners this year, and we have yet to jump into the sexual realm. Cool. I am now feeling-

Jase: Sex in your d&d campaign-

Emily: I know.

Jase: - a bit sexual.

Emily: I am now feeling the desire to be sexual with them but I just don't know where to start. I've never been here before where I just feel stuck. Do we just schedule time for sex? Where do we begin? Aaaaah, help.

Jase: Emily you're reading of that.

Dedeker: Good reading that scream.

Dedeker: Oh, it's like what Siri would say. I have some thoughts about this. Again, I'll drop in the disclaimer of I'm not demisexual. I don't think any of us identify on the Ace Spectrum I think we're all pretty allosexual, at least as far as we know, and have investigated at this point. We don't have direct lived experience here and we're also not a sex therapists so take all this with a grain of salt. The experience I have had though, is even though I may be sexual with one partner or two partners, the idea of being sexual with a new person, either for like, I've gone through a dry spell of not sleeping with anyone new or not really being exploratory or just not feeling like it, then sometimes if that opportunity comes along, it can be weird, it can be awkward, it can be scary, honestly, especially for myself coming with a PTSD background for a long time, I wasn't having sex with anybody new, because there was just a lot of trauma around that.

Then, when I was at that point, when I was ready to open up that channel, again, as it were, it definitely was confusing and awkward and weird. I had to navigate a lot of stuff. That's my own personal context that I bring to this. I think a good place to start, this person says, I am now feeling the desire to be sexual with these two people. I think that's your entry point of curiosity. This is something you do on your own. You don't necessarily need to talk to your partners about this until later.

Just getting curious about, "Okay, where does that desire live in my body? What comes up in my brain?" Just where's your energy moving towards? It's okay for it to either look non-traditional or be weird. It could just be like, actually, my desire to be sexual just involves naked cuddling. That's as far as I've gotten, and that's totally fine. It doesn't have to be, "Okay, I have a desire to be sexual so that means it has to be anything goes or it has to be a particular type of sex." I think that just getting curious about what sounds nice in my body, and it doesn't have to look the way that we define sex to be.

As far as the question about to be scheduled time for sex, I think that if for you putting in that structure feels supportive, like it feels nice if I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to negotiate with my partner. Let's set aside this time to start exploring some of this," if that feels good, great. It could also backfire and put a lot of pressure on that particular moment to perform or for it to go a particular way. I think yes, lean into structure if that feels supportive, but make sure that it's very well-understood by yourself and by your partner, partners, that it's always okay to back out.

It's okay for it to look a different way. It's okay for negotiation. It's okay for us to stop 15 minutes in and completely change, that it's okay for anything to happen without consequences. I don't just mean, like, "Oh, I say no. Then my partner is a horrible consent violator and forces me to do things." I'm talking about no consequences as in, you realize 15 minutes in, "Oh, actually, I don't know if I'm ready to do anything more or I just want to stay like this." Your partner isn't like outwardly frustrated or pouting or disappointed, or it becomes a point of contention.

That's going to be more individual to your relationships with your partners. Just that, negotiating together and how can we create a really nice little nest just to start taking steps toward that and give constant feedback to each other and communication and making sure that we can receive that from each other. I think if it were me, I know, those are some of the things that really helped me back in the day of just getting really honest about what I wanted, and what I needed and having it be okay for it to be a little bit odd or non-traditional, really, really helped me. I think that's where I would begin. Do you all have anything that you would add to that?

Jase: I think it's great. I think the-

Emily: That's great.

Jase: -idea of setting aside time for it, but it's time where nothing, in particular, has to happen is really good, because I'm thinking about this from the other side of having dated a couple of people on ASpectrum and that seemed to be the way. It was setting aside enough time for it because otherwise you just won't ever do it. It's like getting yourself in that headspace of, "Okay, we're going to open ourselves up to this and see what happens."

Then also this idea of and also nothing, in particular, does have to happen.

It could just be maybe just touching a little more than we normally do and that's it. It could also be that. Just I do think setting aside some time for it helps, though, because then-- I guess the hope is, by setting aside time, you're able to get yourself in that mood and maybe preserve your energy during the day or prepare yourself in a way but then by not having a particular expectation of how it has to look, hopefully, avoid that turning into an anxious about it that instead it can be the best of both worlds. I can get myself in that sense but also, nothing has to happen and that's cool too.

Emily: All right. Let's move on to our final question, which is, how do you all recognize when you're polyunsaturated? How much of it is lack of interest and additional relationships because you feel fulfilled with your current relationship landscape? How much is being aware that you're at capacity and can offer the time and energy needed to establish and maintain a relationship? Does it depend on what type of relationship you're considering?

For instance, would you describe yourself as polyunsaturated when you might be open to a comment or friends with benefits, but not open to and more enmeshed type of relationship? That's definitely getting into semantics. I think those are interesting questions to ask because I've known people who are polysaturated with two partners.

I've known people who have a few partners that they're really deep in very intense relationships with but also have perhaps one or two comment friends would benefit type partners, but then also are interested in dating and going out on dates every week, like people to that level.

It is extremely specific and personal for the person. I think that it changes over time in one's life because certainly, I know the two of you have talked about how you feel more like at this particular moment in your life is less about dating and more about working and dealing with the established relationships that you already have and friendships. I think that to me is the kicker is that your life should also include people that are not ones that you're necessarily being romantic or sexual with, ideally.

If for some reason that sorting to not happen, or those relationships have fallen off by the wayside to me that is a clue into potentially you being a bit more polyunsaturated, or on the end of that spectrum, like "Okay, maybe I should not date at this particular moment and just be in the relationships with the people that I'm with." That's where I would go. What about the two of you?

Dedeker: I love you pointing that out. I think that's fantastic.

Jase: I agree.

Dedeker: It reminded me of Martha Kauppi who we had on the podcast last year. Her book, she has specifically an exercise that she gives to her clients, which I now also give to my clients. The exercise is specifically about NRE. It's a little bit parallel to this, but the whole exercise is about essentially making a plan for when you're in NRE. It involves asking a lot of questions of things like, what are the things like the activities, hobbies, projects that I currently have in my life, that I want to keep in my life? Who are the important people in my life right now, not just partners, but family, friends that I want to stay connected to?

How do I want my partners to feel about our non-monogamy? How do I want to feel about my non-monogamy? To tease out what are your values and what's really most important to you? That even when someone new and shiny comes along, you have that body of information that can either A, help you make decisions about your behavior and your commitment. That even though this person is super exciting and have this chemical cocktail in my brain, I can still enjoy having my head in the clouds, but still, have my feet on the ground.

I think it could also be repurposed as a really helpful rubric for figuring out if you are saturated or not. I think if you can take an inventory of what is in my life right now that I want to make sure I'm still showing up for, I think that can start to help you evaluate, do I have extra energy and time left over that I want to dedicate to other people while still maintaining all of these things that are also important to me? When you take that inventory you may find, "Oh yes totally, I can do that," or you may be like, "Mmh you know actually I think if I still want to maintain all these friendships, or this project that I'm working on with my family member or whatever, that maybe now is not a good time to be bringing on another relationship of a particular size or shape."

Again, the time and commitment, energy commitment of a relationship may be smaller, bigger, depending on what it is. I do think that it comes down to either you need to get clear on what your limits are up front, or you need to get really good at having the awkward conversation of telling someone that you've overcommitted and you can't actually offer what you thought that you could offer upfront.

Jase: Just two pieces I wanted to add to that because I think both of what you've said is really valuable. I guess first is just that thing of even if you look at-- Say, "Oh yes, my relationships are all in a good place." Is just to realize that starting a new relationship or even pursuing a new relationship will take time and energy from something else. I think that's another way to look at it of where do I have this in my budget, if you will, of time and energy?

Is it cool, I'm going to take some of the energy that I'm putting into Fortnite right now, and like cool, I'd rather spend that somewhere else that's more fulfilling, awesome, that's great. If it's like I barely have the mental energy and time to do the things I want to do or to hang out with the people I want to hang out with and it's like, maybe I don't have this in my budget. Then the second piece I wanted to add to that is to go back to what this question asker mentioned about, but what if it was a comet or friends-with-benefits type relationship is, yes.

I think getting clear with yourself about how much of you is available, time and energy-wise, and being okay with, these are the relationships I'm interested in and realizing not everyone's going to want to do those. It's okay to let go of some guilt or shame that might come up about wanting that type of relationship and say, "This is what I have that's available," and that's okay to want that or to look for those things and hopefully there's some other people in the same boat.

Dedeker: I want to pose a question to the two of you. A few months ago I came across this rubric for figuring out whether or not you should commit to a particular project. I've chewed on this a lot and I've wondered, "Ooh, could you apply the same rubric to relationships, or is this an oversimplification that can't really be applied to human relationships?" I want to pose it to you, you tell me what you think. Basically, the rubric was, okay, if you're considering about whether or not to take on this particular project, imagine that this project is going to take twice as much time, energy, and money as you think that it's going to. It's only going to be half as profitable as you think that it's going to.

You're only going to get half the benefit that you think that you're going to get. Do you still want to do that project? If so, yes, go for it, and if no, then don't do it. Do you think that that can also be applied to relationships? Now, profitable is weird to think about relationships.

Emily: That's a weird way to.

Dedeker: Yes, if I imagine this is actually going to take twice as much as my time and energy as I think it's going to-- and I'm going to get half as much what? Fulfillment, enjoyment out of it? As I think that I'm going to do. Do I still want this relationship? Do you think that's an oversimplification?

Jase: The twice as much time and energy part or you could say money or whatever, but to me, it's more like time and energy are the real obstacles more than money for dating. I know money can help with dating, but really it's the energy and time that at least in my experience are the ones that you're short on. I think assuming it's going to take twice as much of those as you expect is great advice actually.

Emily: Probably accurate, yes.

Jase: Yes. It's the profitability part. Even if you try to think of it metaphorically that one's hard.

Dedeker: Well, it's hard to measure.

Emily: It's hard to measure and it's hard to future plan for that in some way. I guess it's more just you're doing a thought experiment like "Well this may not go as well as I expect it to right now when I'm in the throes of NRE. Do I still want to do it?" I guess that's an interesting question to pose for yourself. I would probably say no in terms of-- But that I'm not in a polyamorous relationship. That's probably where my head goes.

Jase: One way to think of it, if it is more of that not that I'm considering whether or not I date this new person, but more I'm thinking about do I get out there and try to find a new relationship. You could do that of saying, Okay, it's going to take twice as much of your time and energy on an ongoing basis as what you think and it's going to take you twice as long to find someone to date or something like that. That also this, to find good matches is going to be twice as hard as you think it is or something like that, and then is it still interesting? That could be a starting point.

Dedeker: Okay. It sounds like what I'm hearing is maybe the first half of this of maybe just overestimate the amount of time, energy, resources it's going to take and then think about am I still interested, is it still worth it? Do I still feel like I want to dive into this?

Jase: Then maybe the second part would be, Okay, taking that into account, is there a different type of relationship or maybe even a different way of fulfilling this desire that would take less of those things? That maybe would get me close to as much reward or maybe even the same amount. What I mean by that is something like if maybe it's just physical touch and it's seeing if there's a cuddle party nearby or maybe just increasing physical touch with your existing partners or friends. Or it could be just, I want to feel like I'm being more social and I'm not just playing Fortnite all the time. Whatever it is for you. I'm not just-

Dedeker: You keep dunking on Fortnite.

Emily: I know Fortnite today is a thing.

Jase: Well, people put a lot of hours into this game, or binging YouTube videos or whatever it is, or TikTok or something. Of saying, "Okay, I'm doing this, but I'd rather be doing something more fulfilling to me." Maybe that's reaching out to your friends or finding a new tabletop gaming group or starting a D&D campaign. There could be something else. I mean D&D campaign's probably bad example of something that takes less time.

Emily: Yes, that takes a lot of time. A lot of so much.

Jase: Anyway, just something to consider that maybe there's another way to satisfy this need, or maybe it is just admitting to yourself, "Yes, I really just want friends with benefits," and maybe that'll be a little bit hard to find, but that's what fits my life and that's what I want, so great, and own that and be okay with that.

Emily: Wow, we did it. We got through some questions. Like you said Dedeker, I do really enjoy this. It's very interesting.

Dedeker: These are great questions.

Emily: Yes, these are great questions. It's interesting to see what's going on in people's lives and it's great for us also to be able to answer these questions for ourselves and look deeper into "Well, if I were in this position what would I do?" I love that. Thank you for yet again, another opportunity for us to learn right along with our listeners. We really appreciate it.

Dedeker: Yes, I love that.