413 - Gay and Polyamorous Representation with Frank Smith
Sex positivity and representation
Frank Arthur Smith, our guest this week, is a queer writer/director/actor/producer originally from Boston, Massachusetts. His LGBTQIA+ comedy series, Open To It, in which he stars, writes, directs, and Executive Produces, was an Official Selection of festivals including: Outfest, where it received two special encore screenings; Rio LGBTQIA+ Film Festival, where it was the opening night film; Wicked Queer: Boston’s LGBTQIA+ Film Festival, where it won the Audience Award for Best Comedy Short; as well as the inaugural Gay Binge Film Festival, where it won the Special Jury Prize for Best Performance.
Today, Frank discusses the following topics with us:
What led up to the creation of his web series, Open To It, including:
His approach to creating tension and conflict without using jealousy,
Non-monogamy in the gay community and how it factored into the project,
Surprising things he’s noticed about how the show has been received, and
How much of the show is for him, personally, motivated by normalizing non-monogamy versus sex positivity.
His opinion of the word “throuple.”
His personal evolution of being more sex positive.
What advice he has for the making of Multiamory: The Show (theoretically).
What it was like being on Marie Kondo’s Netflix Show.
Find the first three episodes of Open To It for free at www.opentoitseries.com, and check out Frank more at his Instagram @frank.arthur.smith, on YouTube and TikTok @phosphorusproductions, and on Twitter @FAS4US.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking about the journey to sex positivity, non-monogamy pride, and how all of this resulted in the creation of a queer comedy web series. We're joined today by a very special guest and friend of the Pleasure Podcast Network, Frank Arthur Smith. He is a queer writer, director, actor producer, originally from Boston. His LGBTQIA+ comedy series called Open To It, in which he stars, writes, directs and executive producers was an official selection of a bunch of festivals including Outfest where it got to special encore screenings, the Rio LGBTQIA+ Film Festival, where it was the opening night film, Wicked Queer, Boston's LGBTQIA Film Festival where it won the Audience Award for Best Comedy short, as well as the inaugural Gay Binge Film Festival, which I didn't even know that existed, but sounds great. Where it won the Special Jury Prize for Best Performance.
Frank, thank you so much for joining us.
Frank: Thank you. I don't know how you got wrong though, I'm not sex positive at all, my publicist is fired. That's yick.
Dedeker: You're right. Well, we are a famously very sexy negative show. You've actually come to the right place. It's okay.
Frank: Wonderful.
Dedeker: Those are so many wonderful accolades. I want to go way back, way, way back to before all of those accolades, before this was just like a little twinkle in your eye. What was happening there? How did you decide to create this web series?
Frank: This was definitely a twinkle. Well, how this started was, I was working for a showrunner, director, star who was doing a show loosely inspired by her own life. I was like, she's not doing a good enough job, I could do that. If she's listening, you know what you did. Anyway, I was inspired to think like, okay, what do I think is interesting about my life and what could I share with the world was my unique perspective? I was like, I have a lot of sex and the sex I have is often not good, but it is funny. Oh, I shouldn't have said often, that is such a self-own. When it is not good, which it mostly is, it is funny.
Actually, I was discussing this with someone the other day where when they first conceived of the idea I thought the show was going to be starting out in a monogamous place and moving to a polyamorous place because I guess I felt like that would be more palatable to people to like, oh, see him transition into that. Then I realized the funniest stories I wanted to tell were already in the polyamorous place, it took me a few years to find exactly what the right take was and go, no, we're just going balls to the wall, so to speak, and making the show what it is today.
Dedeker: I really appreciate that because I do think that of all the media that we've consumed over the years, especially someone trying to tell, I guess a fictionalized story via a movie or a TV show or a web series or whatever, I think it's right, but the most palatable version, or at least what we think is the most palatable version is, we got to make it so that our lead characters are instantly relatable to what's going to be probably a mostly monogamous audience. Which means that from a storytelling perspective, you have to go through the growing pains of opening up a not previously open relationship. You have to go through the awkward talks, you have to go through the stumble and all the obstacles right at the gate. Which is, it does reflect many people's experiences. Also, I think you're right, that there's a whole rich experiences, so many stories to be told by people who are on the other side of that.
Frank: Yes, and I think it felt like the most logical thing to me like, oh, they're exploring openness is the inciting incident as opposed to the original conception was that the character would move out to California and start dating. I was like, are we going to start from when his umbilical cord has snapped? Come on, let's keep the important part of the story.
Jase: That's something I actually had this to talk about later, but maybe we could talk about this right now. Something that I found really interesting about the show was that I've seen some content out there and we've talked a lot about different media and things like that, that portray non-monogamy on this show in the past. You have the one option, the most common one, which we were just talking about, is you have a couple who's opening up and it's all about their will, they want, are they going to figure this out, all the jealousy, whatever that comes up?
Then you have the other side where you have ones where it's more like, oh, these people have been polyamorous forever. They've been non-monogamous forever. It's more about, wow, look at their wild life, it's so different from yours. Or look at how this new person starts dating them and they have to learn all of this from this very experienced triad or a couple or whoever it is. I think your show is interesting because it's right in between those.
It's like you're starting the journey. The main couple on the show, they're starting that journey, but we're past all that will they, won't they. It's like, yes, we're doing this, we're ready to get going. I was curious, what other shows did you look at and try to not be like or to be similar to? How do you get to that?
Frank: What a dangerous question. I think we'll keep it positive. Some of the inspirations were like, please like me, I think is one of those. It was like one of the first gay comedies I saw really, because I think a lot of them strike a tone of being more dramedy or drama. Weirdly, it has a heavy logline of the main character comes out the same day as mom tries to commit suicide and yet, is very upbeat and quirky and sees like such. He's charmingly annoying, I would say, not annoyingly charming, that's a different thing. That was where I was like, "Oh, you can have gay comedy that weirdly explores serious things that isn't traumatic."
Then Bonding on Netflix, I love because that was all about BDSM, it's this very sexy comedy where a lot of the comedy came from the sex and eating out was one of my inspirations for the same reason. Just a series of gay movies that were very much like American Pie, but gay. I actually met the director of those and writer Alan Blanco the other day, and he was so wonderful and so warm. Just very affirming of what I'm trying to do here and I would say, most of the inspirations are that I think trending positive because being queer in this world can certainly come with its challenges as can being from any marginalized group.
I find the healing comes from doing more comedic takes. I think if we are leaning into the heaviness sometimes, it's just not the road I want to go down. Other people really enjoy doing that, especially in this time, post-COVID, more the Ted Lasso, world-affirming viewpoint is where I like to live.
Jase: Love that.
Dedeker: Speaking of gay media, I think something that we've talked about with other guests on this show before, is about how polyamory and non-monogamy generally can be treated differently within the gay community, than in most of the other more straight-leaning non-monogamy content out there. I'm talking both in journalism and in media for consumption. What's been your impression of that?
Frank: That's a great observation. I want to just start by agreeing with something Jase said earlier, Jase might not have said it, I'm sorry. I don't want to be part of the patriarchy problem here. Someone made a great observation.
Dedeker: Someone really smart, probably said that.
Frank: Really smart and beautiful, but they don't have to be beautiful, that's just aside. It was about how non-monogamy is usually viewed through a very scandalous lens of like, oh, look at their lives. That was what I didn't want to do here as well, just to normalize them and show like, they're just like you, they just have more sex. Not even always better sex. I think it really is a sexuality dependent thing, what your arrangement is going to be. If you have two heterosexual partners, then they are most likely not going to see people together. If you have a couple where like my partner and I are both gay for instance and we can see people together and that actually is more commonly what we do, it means different things to different people.
I wouldn't say I identify as polyamorous because we don't usually date people, especially not separately, but we will have friends that we have close relationships with together. That's the version that works for us because we are entirely co-dependent and can't spend a second apart, even when we're with other people.
Dedeker: There's plenty of straight couples that bring the co-dependency into dating or dating people together, stuff like that. It is different when you're coming from already a given that we're both attracted to the same type of person.
Frank: That's it, yes. Actually, that's something that you're absolutely right. We happen to have similar tastes. It is not often that we'll be like them. I think both are good at not browbeating someone into being like, come on, please. There are definitely quirks we acknowledge about one another. I think Matt has a little more a thing for beards whereas me, I like blondes a little more than he does. We can accept those goggles about one another and proceed anyway.
Jase: Right. That is interesting because it's almost for you, liking similar people, that's helpful and that's convenient for doing more of that together. It's just interesting when you take that into the world of-- it's funny that we would even use the term like, straight leaning polyamory, where it's like unless you're having totally separate unconnected relationships to each other, something's got to be not totally straight going on here. If we're going to do anything together, then something's got to be going on. That is often this weird piece of conflict that does bring in some patriarchy and stuff like that, where it's like, oh, the woman's expected to be a little more flexible on her sexuality and so there's going to be another woman involved. That's basically the premise of almost all the other fictional media out there about non-monogamy and polyamory is basically that setup. You have this sort of bi-curious female partner, the straight man and that's what they're seeking.
Emily: The free spirit who comes in to change their lives and hearts forever.
Frank: That's truly. Yes, you, me, her, yes, or even like the House of Cards where it's like, there're bisexuals who have threesomes with underlings and they're murderers, are you surprised those go together? It's like, okay, totally. It's like House of Cards, it's like, yes, sure, had it's other problems. Again, it's a villain being non-monogamous and so I guess we can let that slide, but at least, it was like, okay. It wasn't just with women, it wasn't just the unicorn hunting thing, but-
Jase: Better.
Frank: - I think something that's interesting in your show is that's not the dynamic that's there. There's not this weird, who of us in here is one more into this person than the other? I got to convince you like, come on, it'll be fine, but both partners right from the start. I don't think this is spoilers because it's literally the first 30 seconds of the thing is like, oh, my gosh, he's hot, we're excited for this guy to come over. A literal angel thing .
Emily: Did you use a lot of experience from your own life in the actual show when writing it and when creating it?
Frank: It's interesting, it's veered very quickly away from my own life. The character of Princeton who's the third played by Jason Caceres, he is a composite of three different people, actually. Each of the first three episodes is loosely based on something that happened with exaggerated details and as Blanche Devereaux would say, "Names change to protect the satisfied."
Then the actors really interpreted their characters in such a complete and comedic way that the story from episodes four on, just very much took off in a manner I didn't expect because I really liked who these people had become and wasn't my vision. Truthfully, I thought the show was going to be the main couple having a fling of the week, but Jason who plays Princeton ended up impressing me so much, that I was like, "Oh, I'm keeping him around and I want to see what happens to his character too." In a way he actually grows the most of anybody, so it's been a pleasure just letting the actors lead the story in that regard and sort of seeing like, "What do I want to see these people do next?" Not just going through my diary for like, "Fuck, did anything else interesting happen to me?"
Jase: I love that you've basically just set up mirroring how a lot of people end up in polyamory in the first place too, of like, "Oh, we had this threesome, we had some fun, but I actually like this person and want them to stick around, so how can we do that?" That's funny that you as a writer ended up basically in that situation there?
Frank: I caught feelings for my because it happened.
Jase: Yes, exactly.
Emily: Has there been anything surprising in the way that the show has been received?
Frank: Interesting choice of words with you. Yes, I actually thought I was going to have to be much more worried about heterosexual men's response to it that I was like, "I really--"
Emily: Really?
Frank: I don't know, just all my life people talked about things how Queer as Folk was such a popular show and women really loved it. Women loved Queer Eye. I just went in thinking, this is a show for women and gay men and that's it. The number of heterosexual people who have been not only receptive, but have said like, "Wow, this really opened my eyes into what that relationship could look like. I loved like learning and enjoy watching." I was like, that was very surprising and affirming to be like, yes, you don't have to look like the characters to enjoy the story, which I've always felt, but I know not everyone feels that way about what they consume, so it was just nice to experience.
Emily: I'm wondering why you think that is because I think you make a very valid point, but I think that with most queer content, especially queer male content, I think we do tend to have that assumption, it's going to be other gay guys and women, right? Like these are going to be the main consumers, and so not only it's for you to have that experience of such a wide spectrum of people enjoying the show so much, but also to have it be so lauded and so enjoyed.
I guess I'm wondering, do you feel like there's something going on culturally, that there's been a shift that's made it so that people feel more receptive to this or more positive about this?
Frank: Thank you. It probably helps that Jason who plays Princeton the third is straight bait. I think people look at him and they're like, "Oh, maybe I can understand what being gay would be like now, yes, that makes sense."
I agree more so than that, I feel like one of the reasons I wanted to do the show was that polyamory felt like a frontier we hadn't conquered in media yet, whereas we've talked about there's a very specific lens on it all the time. I think we're just living in a time where people are open to being more open-minded honestly, and so when they see a subculture or a lifestyle with which they're not familiar, I think they're just ready to take it in, instead of being judgmental.
Of course, that's not true across the board, but I see it more and more that I don't know, people are just ready for different kinds of shows and maybe it's just because there's such a glut of entertainment. Obviously, politics have become more progressive, but there's just more of an appetite for learning about the human experience, which I could not be more thrilled about.
Emily: I realized in that question I didn't want to be undermining the quality of it because it could also could be successful because it's really good as well at the same time, not just because of a cultural moment.
Frank: No, I think that's how I lured people in too because I really tried to make it pretty joke dense, like Veep is one of my inspirations. I truly, when I was writing the first draft was like, "Okay. I've gone half a page, there's not a joke, I need another one." It was just really trying to get on. I think the fact that it has a lot of one-liners makes people feel like it's safe watching it.
Emily: I've got to laugh. It's not about the-
Jase: Sure. This fits the formula.
Emily: Right. It's like it's going to be broken any minute now, it's okay. On your episode with Sex Talk With My Mom, which you recorded about a year ago, you mentioned you've grown a lot in terms of your own sex positivity and becoming more comfortable talking about sex publicly, things like the web series and being on podcasts. Can you tell us more about that evolution and even since then how you've continued to evolve in that way?
Frank: I would love to, thank you for helping me remember that. Something I said to them that remains true to this day is like, Cam and KarenLee were some of the main reasons I felt comfortable doing the show because it always felt like I don't act in everything I do, I'm definitely not right for every part, but this was one where I always felt like I needed to play the lead. At the same time, I was really nervous because I hadn't been on camera in a while, I also had not shown that much on camera in the past. I was really scared, but Cam and KarenLee and all of you inspire me because you are so vulnerable and honest on camera, on podcast.
I think what's been very rewarding is the people now see the show and then feel comfortable discussing what's going on in their sex lives and relationships with me because they see, oh, this is a show where like this person-- I don't think I would be getting the same result if I weren't acting in it, to be honest. I think it's because I'm willing to put my face on that people see, oh, he is willing to like look sexy, look silly, look stupid, so he is someone I can feel comfortable relating to. Obviously, if he's talking about this sort of thing, then he's all right. In most cases be like, "This is the show I'm making." Then be like, "Guys, I'm real sex negative."
That's the whole point. I want nothing more. I've said this before than for 10 years from now for open to it to be totally passé for people to be like, oh, that was on the cusp at one point, that seems so just vanilla at this point, because I saw a show-- oh, I should have said this earlier, one of the other inspirations and the creator of this show knows this, I've talked to him, he's very nice. Hunting Season was a gay Sex and the City web series basically and I was so rocked when I saw it. I was like, "I've never seen this before. It's like Sex and the City, but with dudes and you can make that," and it was very popular. Now, I think he himself has said it's great that there were other people who popped up as imitators and whatnot, and they're like, "Gay sex isn't something you can't portray anymore, so you just want to make it easier and easier, and get it forward."
Dedeker: You talked about people seeing the show, seeing you in the show and then feeling comfortable now discussing with you what's going on in their sex lives and relationship. Do you also get the failed threesome confessions because I feel that's been-- ever since I've been out, especially about being polyamorous is the minute that they know that I have a podcast or wrote a book, that immediately people launch into, oh, yes, this one time we invited this guy over and-- does that happen to you too?
Frank: Thus far, what I get is either people asking me questions about whether it's right for them or brags or they're like, "In college I did this thing," and they make it sound very glamorous and stuff and I'm like, "I bet if I were a fly on that wall, it wouldn't be that."
I'm happy they feel safe to speak of great times past.
Jase: Before we come back to talk more about this as well as some other interesting shows that you've been on, we're going to take a quick break to talk about some ways that you out there listening can help support this show. If this is content that you value and you like it being available to everybody out there for free, not behind a paywall, the best way you can do that is to take a moment, listen to our ads. If any of them seem interesting to you, go check them out, it does directly support our show. We really appreciate your help.
We're back. Frank, I've been curious about this since watching the show. For you, how much of the motivation for the show is about normalizing non-monogamy, versus normalizing just sex and talking openly about sex?
Frank: Both are very important to me and I think what I've come across talking to a few podcasts now, is that sometimes people you're wanting to talk about non-monogamy as something threatening, as though, oh, you must think monogamy is stupid. I'm like, "No not at all. The whole point of the show is to me that you could be totally monogamous, totally polyamorous, anywhere in between, and not only is that great, consenting adults can do what they want, but it can be really fun different for mutations for different people and affirming. Same with sex. It shouldn't be something you're afraid to talk about.
I'm not saying everyone has to talk about it and has to start a web series in order to be happy with where I'm at in this world, but if you want to do that much you shouldn't feel like you can't. That's really all I'm about, is I don't want you to feel like you can't do anything, but don't do whatever you don't want to and do do what you want to do.
Jase: Watching it was so interesting, content wise if you were just to turn the sound off and have it on in the background, you'd be like, oh, this is a show about sex, there's a lot of skin shown. It's like, oh yes, that's on the surface, that's what's going on, but I feel like we also have a few and there's only been a few so far in these first few episodes, these moments of your character Greg and his partner Cam, having these really nice touching and also very just mature and matter of fact conversations about the fact that they're going to have sex with someone else. Or that it didn't go well for some reason or going on a date separately. That there's just this--
I think I was just really impressed with the naturalness of those conversations, because they didn't have a lot of that artificial drama put into them. They had that feeling of, yes, this is a couple that's very comfortable with each other and very good at communicating with each other.
Frank: Thank you. That was one of the really important things for me to portray in the shows, that they are absolutely on the same team because that's what I've seen more often is that polyamorous couples, they're on the outs or there's some great miscommunication happening. In my relationship and a number of people's polyamorous relationships that I've seen, they are the most communicative, they are the most in touch. I'm glad you picked up on that aspect because that very much becomes a recurring theme.
I'm smiling because we're editing episode seven through nine right now and we have a very long scene between Greg and Cam at the end of seven, where I feel like we ask a question that's been on some people's minds of like, why did we even start doing this to begin with? Tim who plays my boyfriend, he wrote and directed that episode and it's very human and very affecting, where they both get vulnerable, but also are able to laugh a little bit about some of their insecurities and of course, it ends with them kissing and doing what they do.
It's nice to feel like you have the freedom to explore that many episodes in and just be like, yes, I want to just focus on them talking and having a real conversation because they do love one another and I never want the sexiness and silliness to take away from they're the main couple and they're going to be together. I'm not flirting with a breakup, that's not what the show's about.
Jase: The question I had, which was, where are we going to go with that, so that's awesome.
Dedeker: Which again I feel like from a writing perspective often having the main couple be in some crisis is such low hanging fruit. It's like the drama factory or the tension factory or the motivation factory. To not use that, on the one hand is refreshing, but also I imagine again from a writer perspective could be challenging, because it seems like it could be so easy to go there.
Frank: It's funny talking to executives about it sometimes because some people really get it right away and other people are like, well, if they're not fighting, where's the tension going to come from? I was like, "Lord, other-
Dedeker: There are other things.
Frank: If nothing else, they are fucking other people. Those other people can introduce tension. It doesn't have to come from them.
Emily: Any other surprising reactions, especially from the executive side on things?
Frank: Yes, let's see. One is I think this was more at the outset people misunderstanding what I wanted to do with it. One comment was like, "Ugh, I love seeing a couple at the beginning of the end like this, and I was like, No, no, no, wrong."
Dedeker: Wow. No, no. Geez.
Frank: I think people, I don't know, are used to rooting for polyamorous couples to fail, because somehow that validates their own relationship structure and I'm trying to present something different here of like not only will they not fail, but they're not failure, it's not your failure. As the show goes on we get to introduce other couples going through some similar, but different journeys. Like the two women Elsa and Reggie inspired by the men are like, "Ooh, should we try being open?"
At one point in episode nine, the Christmas episode, we meet Cam's parents and we eventually learn that they are trying out something of their own that they feel really ashamed of. When the guys catch wind of it, they're like, "That's nothing. That's what you were worried about?" Everyone has different standards for what being open means to them, but as long as you approach it with love and confidence, I think there's nothing you can't try and no relationship that can't thrive.
Dedeker: It's time for a little quiz, we'll see if you answer this quiz correctly or not. The word throuple. Is it a cool word or is it the worst word?
This is very crucial, you get this answer. right?
Emily: It's really going to be all either way, whatever you say. My goodness.
Jase: It's the worst word. Triad is so much cooler.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: What's your actual opinion?
Frank: I think if it works for you, it works for you. Actually, it's funny because Matt and I have these friends who they're a throuple, but sometimes their third I guess doesn't participate in the text exchanges because he's got a really busier job than they do. They'll be like, "Hey, it's us from the throuple couple." Sometimes they'll meet people without him, that's why they explain that. It's like, "You just met us, but there is one more." I like a good rhyme, so throuple couple works for me.
Dedeker: Nice. I don't know, we've had an interesting back and forth about that on our show. I feel like the three of us tend to personally dislike the word throuple. I think for me, it often tends to read as an outsider word because I feel like already with non-monogamy, we're already suffering from I think a lot of, especially journalism representation that tends to be like, "Oh, it's just like monogamy, but plus one. It's just like a couple, we'll make it a throuple. After expressing that on the show a couple times, we've gotten a lot of very ardent throuples out there, that love that label, love that term. I feel I'm a little bit less attached to the whole throuple versus triad debate.
Frank: I think some people just claim that word and have no compunction about it, but I do hear how some people would say like, no, that's trying to turn us into something you recognize, and to me, queer culture is about-- I used to say queer culture, it's queer culture before it's culture, but then one of my friends corrected me in a way of like, of queer culture is culture. We don't have to conform to something you recognize for it to work. You can have a triad, you can have a threesome, we can invent new words and that's totally fine.
Sometimes there are also too many words. Like when I learned the term, I think it was non-romantic polyqueer, and I was like, "That's friendship, why is there a word for that?" I'll let your listeners tell me I'm wrong. It's fine.
Emily: We got handed the words a few years-- no, not even a few, it was many many years ago, semi porous polyfidelitous commune, and that's just like it's just that's huge.
Frank: That's what you kill your grandparents with.
Emily: It's so many words together.
Dedeker: Yes, I think you make a good point though. We've been doing this show now for pretty soon in another year, so it's going to be a decade, which is a million years of broadcasting.
Frank: Wow, congratulations, that's huge.
Dedeker: We've seen the words change and the labels change so much, and a proliferation of maybe one could subjectively say too many labels too, as well. I do think that we've gotten to a place, or at least I have gotten to a place anyway of feeling like, gosh, maybe we need to be less hung up on the labels as it is.
Jase: I always come back to that, the tick for wolf comic, the Kimchi Cuddles comic about the person looking at the piece of paper being like, "Ah, this label? Oh, I hate someone is trying to label me," and crumples it up and throws it on the ground. Then another person walks by, picks it up and goes, "Ooh my gosh, finally a word that describes who I am." It just depends how it affects you.
Dedeker: Yes, because I think I'm like, Ohoh, this throuple gum-wrapper, ew," and someone else is like. "Oh, wow. This is the one."
Emily: I needed to put my gum in something and this is perfect.
Jase: Gosh.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: The fresh maker with throuple mint gum, now we've made our million dollar idea.
Emily: Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. I love that.
Jase: Wow. It comes in little three packs. Oh God, that's good.
Emily: It's not enough gum, but okay.
Jase: TM, TM, TM. This is trademarks no one can take this. This is ours, going to make our millions with it.
Emily: This is just a selfish question, but if we were to ever make multiamory the show, do you have any advice for that? What is your advice for creating a show, in general?
Jase: Like a TV show or a web series?
Emily: Or a web series, it seems like a humongous undertaking. This is hard enough as it is, creating a podcast, but that's even more intense.
Dedeker: Unscripted goes, basically we have an unscripted television producer that reaches out to us about twice a year on a seasonal basis, being like, "Hey, I was so interested. I want to get you on a call. Let's talk about making a show, seems that was so fascinating. We'd love to see you and both your partners, in your day-to-day lives." Then I'm like, "Actually, the three of us, we're not a triad, we're not a throuple. We don't all live together." Then they're like, "Oh, nevermind." That's been our unscripted experience.
Frank: I'm sorry you're not what they dreamed of. That's really too bad.
Emily: Yes it is. It definitely is.
Dedeker: I don't know. Maybe something scripted. I'm not sure.
Frank: Let's say it's scripted show, because that's your area here.
Jase: It says scripted show.
Frank: Come quick. Don't do it. I think it's just- .
Jase: That's what we tell people when they're like, "I want to create a podcast." No, you don't, you don't.
Frank: I would say the advice I have is, first off, celebrate small victories, even something as simple as like, "Oh, we hired a sound mixer today." That's big. There are definitely moments that are frustrating and moments where you're like, "Oh my gosh, this is so much," but you surround yourself with passionate people, like you found already. Then in making the show, it's even more people who believe in what you're doing. It just makes it all the easier for when little things go wrong, when the caterer delivers lunch like 30 minutes later and everyone's mad at you, like you're literally starving them.
Actually, when that did happen, everybody was very lovely about it, but I was worried they wouldn't be. Rightfully so, I love it. There's a lot of reward in it.
Then my friend told me a story that I like repeating to people of, it's okay to have moments where you're a little bummed out or frustrated. She told a story of when she was producing a documentary and she was doing it in Vegas. Her producer was asking her a question. She put down a briefcase containing $3,000 cash and the laptop with a bunch of footage on it, turned away for 90 seconds, turned back, laptop was gone. She contacted hotel security and they were like, "We're going to do what we can, but the person wasn't that visible on the camera. I think we're probably not be able to track them down."
She told her producer what had happened. They were like, just out of college making this documentary and were really, that was a loss. They went behind the slot machine, cried for a few minutes, then came back out and said, "Okay, what are we shooting next?" I like to say you were always allowed a good cry behind the slot machine, but then you come back out and you say, "Okay, what are we going to shoot next?"
Dedeker: Okay, but is it just don't shoot in Vegas?
Is that so that you don't even have to find a slot machine to cry behind?
Emily: A refrigerator works fine too.
Frank: The end of that story, by the way, is that documentary ended up on Netflix, Figures of speech. It's all about speech and debate. It turned out very well. It's funny looking back at the past few years and I'm really grateful for the friends I've made, the partnerships I've developed and just the person I've become making this, you're not going to emerge from making this theoretical show worse than you started off. It's only going to be better. There's going to be lots of laughs and love along the way and I will be the first person to sit at the premiere. I think it'll be great.
Jase: Thank you. That's great.
Dedeker: Lovely.
Jase: Before we start wrapping up, I did want to take a moment and ask about being on Marie Kondo's show Tidying Up on Netflix. We didn't mention this in the beginning, but you and your real life non-fictional partner, were on the Netflix show, Tidying Up with Marie Kondo. Dedeker and I big fans. I think Emily maybe is coming around as well to get on the condo train.
Frank: Marie Kondo has gotten off the train. She is not organized anymore as you know. There was an article published in Gizmodo being like, she's like, "I've given up, I have three kids, I can't be organized anymore." I'm sure her disorganized is still way better than our peak organization, but that is what you put on the record.
Emily: I get that though.
Jase: Tell us about that. What was that like? How did that happen?
Frank: Basically, the same as Open To It, Netflix was like, "Take your pants off." I was like, "Fine." It was very different, that was bearing myself emotionally because yes, it can be surprisingly thought-provoking when you're deciding what you want to keep and what you don't. We got brought onto the show very randomly. A producer reached out through Facebook and somehow we tricked several rounds of casting associates into thinking we had good personality. That's how that worked.
Matt was a little more, I think, closed off to the process at first. He doesn't I think have like that kind of reverence for, say, a shirt the way I do where I'm like, "Oh, I remember buying this shirt." I just have a lot of emotional memories and connections to things, as anybody who saw the episode would know, paper was a big one. Then when he was dealing with books, he definitely felt it a little more the contrary spirit. We still keep it up to this day. People ask us, if we keep our home very tidy. The lessons really stuck. Maybe we're more organized than she is. Almost definitely not.
I was really happy we got to go through that at a time where I think we were trying to level up a little bit and be more organized, more adult, less cluttered, less like crazed. It was very special because my parents had not visited me in California before and they were able to time their visit with me being on being on the show and to get them see me living well in a nice space. I think that honestly went a long way with making my parents feel very happy with where I was at in life because they had met Matt and liked him a lot already. To see us on our home turf together, thriving, was something really special for them and I'm really happy that got to happen. I'll always have that memory, just a click on Netflix.
Dedeker: Wonderful.
Frank: Until the bubble bursts and Netflix goes away. For now, it's there forever.
Dedeker: Right. That's lovely.
Emily: Wonderful. What a motivation to also keep it up because everyone's going to be asking you for the rest of your life or at least, the rest of however long Netflix is around if you're still organized or not.
Frank: I guess I too, maybe we'll have a Gizmodo headline one day where I'm like, "I gave up you guys. I'm sorry. Couldn't do it."
Emily: There you go. You're just like, I just started producing too many successful web series. You couldn't stay organized anymore.
Frank: If you use your home will definitely make less tidy. That would be the last piece I'll give is if you use your home as a set, just acknowledge that it will be a little bit of time to clean up the dirt, but you will eventually.
Dedeker: This has been a wonderful discussion. I'm curious to know what's next for you? You're still producing, still editing, still getting this web series out. Do you have anything else exciting on the horizon?
Frank: Do I have anything else exciting in my life? Yes, actually, so I got engaged to my fiance recently.
Emily: Congratulations.
Dedeker: Congratulations.
Frank: Thank you. We did that over Christmas, so I think we'll be getting married probably in the next few years. We're not super ready to plan a wedding yet because every friend tells us how laborious it is. I'm like, "Okay, maybe that could wait a second." If you're listening to this podcast totally scandalized and you're like, "Well, I could never watch Open To It, good news, I also write on a kids show called Ocean Explorers, which you can find on YouTube. That's just about creatures exploring the ocean and it's very cute and cuddly. They learn lessons about like colors and shapes, but also social emotional learning.
That being said, my parents and Matt's parents have seen Open to it and laughed at it. I truly do believe Open to it, fun for the whole family.
Dedeker: Wow, wonderful. Where can people watch and where can people find more of your work?
Frank: The first three episodes of Open to it are at opentoitseries.com. The third episode is paid for now. You have to click in the top right corner of it, where it says, "Buy for $3.33 cents." A portion of the proceeds go to charity, the TransLatina Coalition. Episodes four through nine will be out later this year. We'll probably be doing it in batches of three, like four through six and seven through nine. I'm especially excited about nine because each episode is titled like, Open to whatever, like open to threesomes, open to polyamory. Episode nine is the Christmas episode called open two xxxmas, so stay tuned.
Emily: Cute, adorable.
Jase: Very nice. All right, well thank you so much for joining us today, Frank. It's been a blast and we can't wait to watch the rest of the episodes when they come out.
Frank: Awesome. Thank you guys for doing what you do. I think sex positive people, we need to need to keep being friends and hanging out.