460 - Multiamory Presents: Navigating Jealousy in Non-Monogamy (Multiamory’s Interview on Better in Bed with Sara Sense)
Talking jealousy on Better in Bed
Today's episode is an interview we did with Sara Sense of the Better in Bed podcast. This discussion is all about jealousy and navigating jealousy within the context of relationships and non-monogamy. For a long time, the discourse around jealousy was always that if you felt, it meant something was wrong with your relationship or it was a problem that you alone had to deal with and fix. Those ideas are a little antiquated now, so we talk about that and more with Sara during this roundtable-style interview.
Sara Tang is a certified sexologist and coach based in Hong Kong. She believes that sex is a skill and everyone can learn how to get better in bed. She is most passionate about helping people who had a limited sex education or culturally conservative upbringing feel more connected and confident with their sexuality.
She started her platform Sarasense to provide tools and resources for people to get better educated about all aspects of sex and sexuality. Her podcast Better in Bed aims to normalize the conversations we have around sex, and reaches global audiences in over 88 countries. It was recently featured as one of the Best Sex Podcasts in Esquire and The Guardian. Find her on Instagram and Facebook @hellosarasense and check out her online course here.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Emily: Hello, listeners. Today, we're going to bring you an interview that we did back in December of 2022 with our friend Sara Sense of the Better in Bed Podcast. This discussion today is all about jealousy and navigating jealousy in the context of relationships and non-monogamy. I think for years, the discourse around jealousy was always that if you felt it, it meant that something was wrong with your relationship or that that's a problem that you alone have to deal with and fix, especially in non-monogamous relationships. I really think that those ideas are becoming a little antiquated and are really changing. We get into some of that and we just have a really fun discussion with Sara.
This discussion was unique because it was not remote like how we usually do all of our podcast episodes. We actually recorded it all together around this really tiny table in the same room when we were all in Hong Kong where Sara is based. It has more of a roundtable discussion feeling like friends at a dinner table talking to one another. I really like that about it. It's super interesting getting to go back and listen to this discussion that happened over a year ago, and getting this little time capsule of where we were then and see the differences to where we are now. I really love this discussion. We had so much fun with Sara when we were recording it and we really hope that you enjoyed the episode as well.
Sara: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Better in Bed, the podcast where we talk about sex and inspire you to get better at it. I'm Sara and I'm a certified sexologist and coach. I help people like you overcome shame, explore your sexuality, and communicate more meaningfully about sex. Now, if you're listening to this podcast and you love the tips and insights that we dish out regularly about sex, then you're really going to love my free audio guide called How To Get Better in Bed. Just go to my website sarasense.com and join my email community. You'll get the guide, as well as some other resources that I don't share anywhere else but on email.
A lot of you also ask me how you can support Better in Bed and I'm really proud to announce that Better in Bed is now on Patreon. If you sign up, you'll be able to access exclusive bonus content for our podcast episodes including this one. There's also fun polls, behind-the-scene stuff, and also the option to ask me a question if you like to.
Today, we're talking about dealing with jealousy. I feel jealousy is one of those really complex emotions that pretty much everyone has felt at some time or another. I definitely have. Sometimes jealousy is fleeting, but sometimes it can also make you feel pretty yuck and small inside. Jealousy is particularly prevalent in relationships, whether they're sexual or romantic.
I put up a poll on my Instagram account, @hellosarasense, on this topic and 11% of you said you felt jealousy often, 39% of you said sometimes, and 50% of you said rarely or never at all. I guess that's split pretty much down the middle. A few more points I found interesting, a majority of you, 60%, said jealousy was a red flag for you when you're dating someone. Only 13% of you said you'd ever broken up with someone because of jealousy, so it's a red flag but not a deal breaker. I guess that comes down to how you're dealing with jealousy in a relationship.
Our guests today are going to give us some tools and strategies to deal with jealousy in a healthy way. I'm so, so excited to welcome them on to the podcast because I have been a avid follower of their podcasts for quite a while and I often recommend this podcast to my friends as well. I want to introduce Jase, Dedeker, and Emily from the Multiamory Podcast. Multiamory offers support and advice for modern relationships such as polyamory and other non-traditional relationships. Their podcast has over 400 episodes including some great episodes on managing jealousy. I think they now also have a book with the same name.
Sara: Jase, Dedeker, and Emily, welcome to Better in Bed.
Dedeker: Oh, thank you so much for having us. It's so great to be here. It's so great to be recording in person in Hong Kong with you.
Sara: Absolutely.
Dedeker: It's such a rarity in this day and age.
Emily: Yes, in Hong Kong. It's so wonderful.
Sara: I feel so lucky to have you guys here. Maybe you could introduce yourselves a little to everyone listening and maybe say a little bit more about your relationship dynamic, why you started the Multiamory Podcast.
Jase: We've been doing the podcast now for about a little over eight years now. When we started the podcast, it was because the three of us were polyamorous, all three of us were in a relationship with each other, as well as other people. I had this brilliant idea of-
Emily: So brilliant.
Jase: -let's make a podcast about this, because at the time, there really weren't a lot of podcasts out there. There was really only one polyamory podcast out there at the time which was Polyamory Weekly. We just thought that there was a need for more of this information and content, especially for people who were a little bit younger than those other podcasts were at the time. It's funny now, eight years later, that there's a lot of other polyamory podcasts and non-monogamy podcasts out there.
At the same time, our relationship dynamics have changed and our show has broadened to include more than just polyamory, that we talk a lot about monogamy as well if it's intentional and conscious, or about asexual relationships or various other ways relationships can look like queerplatonic friendships or things like that.
Dedeker: That has been a really funny thing about running the podcasts is in 2014 when we first started, it felt like such a different landscape, online in particular. It did feel well like, "Well, we're going to be the one other non-monogamy podcast." I do feel like, at least what I saw around 2015, 2016, there was this big explosion of other content creators, of people, even just regular people feeling comfortable to say in their social media profiles, "Yes, I'm non-monogamous," or "I'm polyamorous," or "I'm a swinger," or whatever it is.
I don't know. Funnily enough, there's this incidentally app that Jase and I both use called Coral where now this app is like, "Have you considered opening up your relationship? We're going to teach you about what you should talk about." I'm just like, "Wow." It's really gotten into the culture, at least into American culture in a particular way that's so different from when we first started.
Emily: I think our relationship in general as it stands now is super non-traditional as well because you soul date each other and that was non-traditional in and of itself. Yet now, I'm no longer in a relationship with the two of them, but they're still in a relationship with one another. We run a business together and are best friends and really close, and I think in a lot of ways, an emotional triad. That is super unique simply because I don't think very many people out there really want to hang out with their exes and want to be around them as much anymore and stuff like that. We decided like, "Let's create a business together and do that."
Jase: Yes.
Emily: It's unique in and of itself.
Dedeker: Within the first year of the podcast, we went through this big relationship collapse because we were initially in a quad together. There was a fourth partner who was involved and all of us were also dating other people. Within a year, there was this huge upset of our relationships and multiple breakups happened and lots of drama and we still were like, "I guess we'll keep recording this podcast together even in the midst of some extremely difficult things happening and difficult emotions." Still sitting down to record even when some relationship has broken up a week before. A lot of really, really intense stuff. Somehow we got through it and I think came out the other side of that just much better and stronger and closer than I think any of us-
Emily: For sure.
Dedeker: -were even when we were dating.
Emily: It's definitely the most unique dynamic of my life, but I could not imagine my life without it for sure.
Jase: There's something to be said for working your way through your relationships by researching and then talking about relationships every week for eight years.
Emily: Yes, correct.
Jase: Definitely, it's helpful.
Sara: Yes, but also very vulnerable in some ways because you're also experiencing the things that you need the tools for in some ways.
Emily: Often, it's a "do what I say, not what I do" scenario. You realize there's a practical application versus just reading about something or researching it. The difference is huge, and actually being able to go out and do that thing that you're been talking about for that particular week or talking about for years even, it's more challenging than it may seem.
Sara: Oh, absolutely.
Dedeker: It's also the kind of thing that I've run into with newer partners, partners who I'm not podcasting with.
Emily: That's difficult too.
Sara: Can they be part of the podcast as well?
Emily: Sometimes you wish they were.
Dedeker: It's the thing where, to me, this feels like a chosen family relationship. That is really important because we end up spending a lot of time together just working. When new people, I think, come into the scene, new people that we're dating, sometimes that can be challenging to explain how important this working relationship is and how sometimes that even takes priority.
Jase: Which is a good segue back to jealousy, which is the topic of this episode.
Sara: Oh, my goodness. Yes. Let's talk about that.
Dedeker: Sure.
Jase: Yes.
Sara: Kudos for you by the way, that the entire journey that you've been on and to where you are. I'm sure there must have been some difficult bits.
Emily: Absolutely.
Sara: Maybe you can share with people if you did feel jealous, and your own personal experiences as well. I'm sure people would love to hear about them. Let's just start basics. What is jealousy to start with?
Emily: You have a very specific, I think, idea of what jealousy is versus envy and things along those lines. I think that's evolved over the years.
Jase: When we first started talking about this, we focused more on that difference between jealousy and envy. Just to recap that real quick, basically it's that envy is, I want something that someone else has, and jealousy is this, I'm afraid of losing something that I have because it's going to get taken away from me. We focus more on that at first and I still see some people really focus on that when they post online.
Really, when it comes down to it, what matters is how we actually use the word and think about the concept. We tend to use now just jealousy to describe all of that because actually, in the definitions for jealousy, it does actually include both. It's something that we've loosened up a little bit on that distinction at least.
Dedeker: I rope in a slightly different nuance to it, especially since I'm working with clients. I see jealousy as it's something that shows up and it's trying to show you something or it's trying to tell you something. I think it's the first maybe red flag that comes up, or it's really more like a sign pointing you in a different direction. It's pointing you towards something. Either something that I'm not getting in my relationship, something that I'm longing for from a partner or from my life. Some insecurity that I've been holding or some wound or some trauma that needs healing.
With my clients, when jealousy comes up, a lot of our work is actually getting underneath, what's actually underneath here? I find it's very rarely just as simple as like, "Oh, you're just jealous," or "You're just a jealous person," and that's it. It's pointing you toward something. I think in more recent years, I come to see jealousy as-- maybe the most positive thing I could say about it is, it's your benevolent protector just trying to tell you.
Emily: It's a data point if nothing else.
Dedeker: Yes. If nothing else, it's a data point. It's trying to give you some information. Your work, I think, is figuring out, what is the information that it's highlighting, and then what do I do with that information.
Sara: Don't you feel like sometimes jealousy is also-- there's so much in jealousy. Sometimes it's hard for me as well to even define what is jealousy because there's fear, there's anger, there's disappointment, there's just so many faces to it.
Jase: That's a great way to put it. There's something we've talked about a lot before is that jealousy is this word that we use for this whole group of feelings. Like you're saying, all these different things. There's fear, there's insecurity, there's sometimes just anger or there's desire, or there's all sorts of things. The thing we usually ask people when they talk to us about jealousy is, "Okay, tell me more about what you're feeling. What's actually going on? What's really here?" Just saying jealousy is not helpful. It's the starting point. Like Dedeker said, it's that, "Oh, here's a little indicator that something's going on." Then the question is, well, what's actually the thing that's going on?
Emily: I feel like so often it's less about the thing that's externally occurring and more about what's internally happening within you. That can mean a variety of things. If I'm non-monogamous and I see a partner going out and doing a fun new thing with my metamour with another partner, that may trigger something within me. Is it actually the acts that they're doing, or rather something that I'm longing for, that I'm hoping for instead?
I would love to be able to have new experiences with my partner. I feel like we've gotten into mundane where I'm going to hang out on the couch with you and do the same thing every single night. It feels triggering in some way to watch my partner have a fun new time with their other partner. That more is an internal thing. I think that's so often the thing that we have to look at.
That's the challenging part because we would rather blame it on someone else or say, "You're the problem," not, I'm the one who needs to really look inward and ask myself, what is it that I'm really wanting here and that I really want to change potentially about something that's occurring.
Sara: What I'm noticing already is that the way you guys are talking about jealousy is that it sounds like you're just accepting it and normalizing it as a very healthy part of a relationship. However, I don't know if a lot of people feel that way about jealousy. I think if you told them, "Oh, have you ever felt jealousy?" They would feel, "Oh, God," and it's bad and painful and feels awful and I don't want it. It's generally negative actually. What's your take on that and how have you reframed it?
Dedeker: I think that is apt because I do think that if anything that being non-monogamous has taught me, I think it is reducing the fear of feeling jealous. I do think there is a normalizing process going on. I think that in very traditional relationships, the expectation is, to feel romantic jealousy is such a bad feeling that we both need to go through every possible strategy we can to avoid any exposure to romantic jealousy.
Emily: Read all the books to do all the things.
Jase: You can't even look at someone else, you can't even think about someone else.
Dedeker: Don't look at someone else, don't compliment someone else. Maybe even don't even have friends of the gender that is the most threatening to me. I will say, it's not that I'm into feeling jealousy, it doesn't feel good. I don't look forward to feeling it, but I know that when I'm feeling it, there's not those same alarm bells going off of like, "Oh, God. This means it's a bad relationship if you're feeling any jealousy whatsoever," or the alarm bells that are saying, "Oh, God. If you're feeling jealousy, it must be telling you the truth about a relationship." I guess there is that particular flavor there.
Jase: I think one distinction worth making is the difference between feeling some kind of jealousy and what I would call doing jealousy.
Emily: Acting upon it.
Jase: When we think about all of the terrible things associated with jealousy, at least in my opinion, it's less about just the feeling itself, and it's more about all the suffering that's caused--
Emily: Or the restrictions upon another person potentially.
Jase: Right. All the results of people feeling jealousy and trying not to. It's like killing someone in a jealous rage at the extreme end, or that like, "You can't talk to that person. I'm going to monitor everything you do because I'm jealous." That's what people see and go, yikes, jealousy equals bad, but it's the behavior that's bad. I would maybe say one way to think about it is feeling jealousy is okay, but doing jealousy or--
Sara: That's okay.
Jase: -acting out on the jealousy is not okay. That's why people go, "No."
Dedeker: Something I've noticed in recent years is I do think when I was much younger, and especially when I was first trying out non-monogamy, I was very much in that camp of, "Oh my God, if someone I'm dating displays jealousy, they're out. That's a red flag. Don't want to deal with that."
Emily: For all you polyamorous people out there, newer polyamorous people, yes, it's going to be okay. Jealousy is going to happen and that's fine.
Dedeker: What I've noticed in recent years is I actually feel more open to having partners who express their jealousy to me because I think I've had more experiences with partners who can express jealousy, but it doesn't automatically mean they're going to act jealous and restrict me. They can be vulnerable to say, "Hey, this is really challenging," or "Hey, I want to be the best at sex." That's my thing, but it doesn't automatically translate to, and therefore that means you better not have sex with anybody else or you better not talk to anybody or other partners.
Jase: Right, or I'm saying this to you to try to get you to stop doing that effectively
Emily: To restrict you in some way.
Dedeker: I do think in recent years, my relationship to my partner's jealousy has become almost more positive of like, "Oh, geez. Well, shucks."
Emily: Interesting.
Dedeker: Almost cute because I think it's uncoupled from the behavior and the restrictions.
Jase: It's more about being vulnerable and admitting some fear.
Sara: Very interesting. I think many people assume that if you're in some open or poly arrangement, you just don't ever feel jealous. Whereas clearly, you guys are saying that, no, you do.
Emily: Yes, I'm probably.
Sara: Maybe that's a misconception, but again, I think there are lots of people who are maybe in more traditional relationships where they're like, "Oh, okay. These people in poly relationshi-- they've Zen mastered jealousy.
Emily: I'm sure a lot of polyamorous people like to think that way about themselves as well, but yes.
Sara: Sure. It's not an issue. I guess what are your personal experiences with feeling jealous, and has it ever impacted any of your relationships?
Dedeker: Gosh, who's going to go first?
Emily: I'll go first. I'm not in a polyamorous relationship right now. I'm with a partner that I've been with for about eight years. We met around the time that this podcast was becoming a thing.
Jase: You started out polyamorous with them.
Emily: Correct. During that time, I was shocked and surprised at the amount of jealousy that I felt. Usually, it manifested in I saw women that he was dating that I felt perhaps intellectually inferior to, for instance. They would read poetry together maybe, for instance. That definitely was really difficult for me and surprising in that way that-- I just didn't expect to feel that because I had done this show for a number of years and really thought that I had mastered that side of myself.
Dedeker: You thought you mastered it.
Emily: For sure, yes. It was shocking to realize that that wasn't necessarily the case. I think I definitely did not always handle it in the best way, especially when that might have been six years ago or something now, and I would cry and be upset, and then eventually be like, "Well, you also have some good qualities," and just calm the fuck down.
That was the challenging thing from time to time to realize, yes, I'm going to feel things because it's human to feel things, and we're allowed to do that, but if we act upon it, if we can calm our physiological response and be able to move in a direction of what am I learning from this, what am I feeling internally that's going to get me perhaps to a better place eventually, instead of acting upon it in an irrational way. Oh, yes, I felt it.
I felt it with the two of them too. I mean, the two of you rather, yes. That's a whole other thing, but you can talk first if you want.
Jase: No, I would just say simply that, yes, it comes up now and again. I would say, for me in recent years, I would say in the last, I don't know, six years or so, it's hasn't come up strongly. I think starting out. Also, we were just in a more tumultuous time in our own relationships being a little bit newer, so they're a little less safe feeling yet. I think there's feeling more secure in your relationship helps alleviate some of that jealousy.
I would say in the last probably six years or so, it's been-- I haven't had any experiences of it being really intense, that intense freak out feeling of it, but it'll be hints of it that'll show up, or it's like, I feel this weird threat or something from maybe some other relationship that Dedeker had. Then it would be that question of, "Okay, what is it really? Is it that I wish I was dating more? Hmm?" "No, I don't think it's that." Just as an example. It's just, "Okay, no, maybe it's not that. Is it that I feel like she's having more sex than I am? Is it that I want to be having more sex?" I'm like, "Yes, maybe that's it." It's like, "Well, maybe it's not that."
It's kind of that questioning of what is it actually that I'm not getting enough of or that I'm wishing I had more of, or like Emily was saying, "Is it just that I'm feeling like I'm not good enough?" Then it's like, "Okay, maybe I should think about that."
Emily: This is a big one.
Jase: For me, it tends to show up that way of, as soon as I start to feel that feeling, it's like, "Okay, what is it that I'm actually wishing I had more of?" Actually, one other thing I did want to throw out there that was a big revelation for me a few years ago is about sex actually. It's about jealousy about your partner seeming like they're having more or maybe better sex than you. You can never really know that. If you're not the one having the sex, you can't--
Dedeker: If you're not witnessing it.
Jase: Right. You can't really know that. In terms of how much it is, often you don't really know all the details of that either. It's complicated. The thing I discovered for me was that there was also this piece of feeling. I think for me, part of this is being a man and being socialized with that. It's that if I'm not having as much sex as my partner or I'm not having what I consider a lot of it, then I'm failing somehow.
Dedeker: Failing as a man in particular.
Jase: Right. That there's this social idea that, as a man, if I'm having more sex, that means I'm also worth more and I'm more desirable, and all of this stuff that we get from that. When I gave that example before of really getting down to, "Is it actually that I want to be having more sex?" I started seeing, "No, actually I feel pretty good on that front." There are some times, like recently, where it's like, "Yes, actually having some more sex with some new people would be fun," but a lot of the times, I realized it was actually just my pride or my socializing that--
Emily: Your internal socializing.
Jase: That made me feel like I should be doing this more, and if I'm not, I'm failing somehow. That's just something I want to throw out there in case that's helpful to someone else who might be listening.
Sara: Is jealousy a sign of love?
Dedeker: I love that question. A few years ago when we were doing the research for our Attachment Styles episode, we found that the mainstream school of thought is that jealousy is a sign of a secure attachment, which is so interesting. Most of the research on Attachment Styles has been done either on parents and children. That was the foundation of creating attachment theory, or on mostly monogamous couples. I remember first reading this and us being like, "What? That's bullshit. Really? That can't be true." I think that my thought has changed a lot on that over the years.
Initially, it was like, "Yes, but I know all of these non-monogamous people in relationship who don't feel jealousy and clearly are very secure." It's not that jealousy has to be present in order to indicate that there's a secure relationship. Now I think I've realized that it's not that people in loving, secure, attached relationships never feel jealous, but I do think there is something about feeling safe enough to be vulnerable about that jealousy.
Emily: To even know that it's occurring.
Dedeker: Yes. Is it a sign of love? I will say, I think it's a sign that there's some stakes here for you in the relationship. I don't think that this applies to necessarily 100% of relationships because I do think there can be horrible, pathological jealousy. There can be jealousy that's very abusive, that's very controlling. I think there can be people with unresolved issues that manifest as extreme terrible jealousy in a relationship. If I exclude that, and I would say, most people's garden variety everyday jealousy.
Again, to go back to my whole thing of jealousy is pointing towards something. I think often it's pointing towards like, this relationship is important to you in some way. Whether it's important as in, "This is the person I've been with for 20 years and I want to be with them for 20 years more and I'm scared that they're not going to be there," and so that's what the jealousy is pointing you towards, or if it's like, "This is my hookup and I really enjoy the sex and I'm just scared that maybe they'll think someone else is sexier than I am and not want to have sex with me." I don't know if I would say that it's automatically a sign of love. I think for most people to sign, there's something important here for you. That's my take.
Emily: I do want to just say, though, that there is this romanticization of jealousy in a way that we should potentially caution against. That is a very mainstream view in my mind, that people tend to say jealousy equals love, that I want somebody who is so into me that if I look at another person, they're going to be super jealous of that.
Jase: Right. I'm going to try to make them mad with jealousy to show that they care.
Emily: Exactly, or I'm going to play some games to make them jealous in some form or fashion, and that's not what we're talking about. I would hope. Yes. I think it's more along the lines of, if you feel jealousy, how are we going to act upon it? What are we going to do internally? What kind of work are we going to look at in terms of, am I upset about this thing? Is this triggering a feeling that I had back when I was a kid because my father withheld emotion from me or whatever it might be?
I think those things, as we've said, are the things to really look at. That's okay within a relationship, but true jealousy equals love is probably not where I would go.
Dedeker: It's not that simple.
Emily: No, it's not that simple, and that's reducing it to something that's maybe not healthy.
Jase: One other piece that we haven't quite mentioned yet is that when jealousy is coming up, it might be a sign that something is wrong.
Emily: That's true.
Dedeker: Yes, 100%.
Jase: Right? In that example of that, "I want my partner to feel jealous because that's how I know they care." Maybe you're doing shitty stuff to them to make them feel bad. If they're feeling that jealousy on their side, it's like--
Emily: Maybe you are just doing something bad.
Jase: Right, exactly. That on their side, it might be like, "Yes, I'm feeling jealous. I don't feel like I should, but I'm feeling jealous." There is also the possibility that it's telling you, "Yes, my partner is not being cool. My partner is either intentionally hurting me or just being negligent of my feelings."
Dedeker: You're not giving me what I need.
Emily: Withholding information, any of the above.
Jase: Right. Again, to go back to this idea, that it’s pointing you towards something.
Dedeker: It's pointing you towards something. See?
Emily: That's true.
Dedeker: It's something.
Emily: It still is information.
Dedeker: It's information.
Emily: That is a good thing because--
Jase: It's very possible that the thing it's pointing you toward is, yes, this relationship actually isn't safe, and that's why you feel threatened in this relationship. That's also a possibility.
Dedeker: I will say that I think in what I consider to be my first actually polyamorous relationship, as in the first relationship I was in where it was very emotionally attached and my partner had another emotionally important relationship, I felt so much jealousy. Again, it was after I'd already been in open relationships for several years. I was like, "What is wrong with me? Why is this happening?" I really beat myself up a lot in that relationship over feeling jealous, when the reality is that partner was being super shitty, was lying to both people, was really not being ethical, really not being honest, really not meeting the things that I needed.
At least the jealous feelings were completely justified. Some of my behavior maybe was not the greatest, but the feelings, I think, again, were pointing me towards, "Hey, there's something not right in this relationship. There's a way that your needs are not being met."
Jase: Before we get back to the discussion, we want to take a quick break to talk about how you can support this show. Honestly, the biggest way you can help this show is by becoming a patron, and our patrons are the best. They're amazing. I love our community. Our Discord server is-- Now, I will tell you, I'm a member of probably 30 different discord servers, but the one that by far has the best community, the most supportive, the most interesting different channels of discussion that are being updated every day is the Multiamory Discord. Sure, maybe I'm a little bit biased, but it really is amazing.
It's a fantastic community to be part of, and you can do that by becoming a patron at patreon.com/multiamory, or you can go to multiamory.com/join to get redirected there. You can learn about all the different tiers and all the really cool benefits that we have for people who help support this show.
In addition to that, we do have sponsors on this show because it's important to us that this show is also available to everybody out there for free so that they can get this information if it's helpful to them. To do that, just take a moment, listen to our sponsors. If any are interesting to you, check them out. That really does directly help support our show to help us keep this show going and spreading out into the universe.
Sara: Okay, guys. Well, one of the things actually I really love about the Multiamory podcast is that you guys give so many practical tools and frameworks to people. I'm going to ask you, what are some of your top tools to help deal with jealousy in a healthy way?
Dedeker: Well, I'm so glad you asked. We did just record two episodes. It was a two-parter, 50 Different Ways to Handle Jealousy. If people want to go check that out, that's Multiamory episodes 394 and 395. It's hard to pick my favorites from that list, but I will say the first things that come to mind, if I was just suddenly to have a jealousy spike right now in this moment, probably the first tool I would whip out is what's known as mind mapping, which is sitting down with a piece of paper. You can get as many art supplies as you like. What I like to do is literally just artistically draw out a map of everything that's going through my mind in that moment.
It can be things like, "Oh, it's bringing up this memory of this time in my relationship, and that's like a spiky storm cloud or whatever, and I'm going to write in what the memories are and the feelings, but then also it's bringing up, weirdly, some feelings of compersion and actually joy that my partner is having a good time, and so this is like a pink, fluffy cloud over here, but then it's bringing up all these questions that I have about the situation in the future. These are the anxiety questions that are coming up."
I really like that, just to get all my thoughts outside of myself and to have a sense of all the different moving pieces that are happening there. I would say that would probably be the first thing I would reach for if it was right now.
Sara: What does that do? It just helps you deconstruct all of the complexities and the many different things that are encompassed within jealousy.
Dedeker: Then it gives me a starting point for a conversation with my partner, potentially, if it feels appropriate to share it with my partner, where I can be like, "Yes. So I had these feelings that came up, and it reminded me of this time, but then also I had these questions, but then also I also feel actually joyful and happy, that I get to more accurately express what my inner life is instead of just in the moment. As soon as the jealousy spike comes up, it's just like the first thing that pops into my brain comes out my mouth.
Sara: I love that.
Emily: One that I found on our long, long list. I was a therapist dump, which I really love because I actually started therapy not too terribly long ago, after many years of trying to figure out, "Am I going to do this? Am I not?"
If you have the privilege to be able to meet with a therapist or even a very, very trusted friend in some way, to be able to speak with them about what's going on internally, before and maybe in place of dumping all of this on your partner and getting it out in the open in a way, and maybe getting some feedback, I think is really powerful and a really great tool to do, especially because when we're in the midst of maybe an intense moment of jealousy, we may not act or speak in a manner that is as appropriate as it should be, especially towards our partner. I think if we can do that first with somebody who is trusted and who may even be able to help in a really productive way, then that's ideal.
Sara: That's so interesting because I think, intuitively, you would just think, "Oh, my partner needs to know this."
Emily: A third party, I think, can be really helpful.
Sara: Absolutely.
Jase: I'm going to give a couple. One is if you're someone who likes to really logic your way through things and do-- If the idea of doing some worksheets sounds fun and nice to you--
Emily: Which you like.
Dedeker: That's true.
Jase: Sometimes, right? It depends on how I'm feeling, but there's one by Kathy Labriola called The Jealousy Workbook, and then also one by Kitty Chambliss called The Jealousy Workbook. If you look for that, both of those are nice structured ways that you could go through it. Then for something totally different, the big thing for me is sleeping more. So many of the times when I'm just feeling like I can't handle these feelings, I'm overwhelmed, I'm feeling sad and I don't know why, or I'm feeling threatened and I don't know why, I've learned it comes down to that I'm not getting enough sleep.
It's just so important for our mental health. I know it's not always easy to do, especially right now while we're in Hong Kong. I'm getting up at 4:30 a.m. every day for my work because it's in the US, and so I have to overlap with that time zone. It's hard to do that, but just last night, I think, I said to Dedeker, I'm like, "I'm feeling sad." She's like, "Why is that?" I was like, "I think it's because I'm tired." She said, "Yes, it is." Just self-care, I would say, is part of that.
It's not just, "Am I sleeping enough?" Also, it's, "Am I getting exercise if that's something that makes me feel better? Am I having fun? Am I doing something besides working all the time or besides going on dates all the time? Am I doing other things that are relaxing and fun and make me feel good about myself?" I'd say self-care with an emphasis on sleep.
Emily: Well, that reminds me of this moment in time for me right now that I am on this contract. The reason I'm in Hong Kong is that I get to be on a performance contract at Hong Kong Disneyland. I definitely internally feel some of the best that I felt about myself in a really long time, and I think that's huge because there were times when we were so vulnerable and wounded, and internally not at our best just because of our external circumstance. I think that's so true that it can be something as small and slight as like, I'm not getting enough sleep, I'm not working out as much as I maybe want to be, or whatever, I didn't get enough food today. Things along those lines, but I think it can be bigger and more global that maybe our circumstance needs to change in a larger way.
Definitely, right now, my faculties emotionally, I think are really high because I feel good about myself, and that's not always the case. I have the potential to lash out more at a partner or be in a worse mood just simply because I don't feel as good about myself. I think that's a big thing to really look at at a global level.
Sara: Yes. The same incident that can trigger jealousy, if you're in a good place, it--
Emily: Yes, 100%.
Sara: You slept well, you've eaten well, you're not tired, you can just handle it, you're going to see time rushing up.
Jase: It's like, "Yes, no problem."
Sara: Yes, that's cool, but when you're worn down and you're drained, then--
Emily: I love that because it takes it more down to a granular level. I realizes it's a fleeting moment in time. It's not something that's going to be forever, and it's not something that's even "true." It just is, in that particular seconds of your life, or whatever. Maybe it lasts for a while, but it doesn't always have to be because in another moment, you may be feeling better and you may be able to handle it better.
Sara: Let's say I am feeling jealous and I want to talk to my partner about it, what are the dos and don'ts with regards to starting this conversation?
Emily: Oh, that's a good one.
Dedeker: I always recommend that people use I-statements.
Sara: Okay.
Dedeker: This is a very couples' therapist thing to do. I think that's fundamental where it lands very differently if you approach your partner saying, "I'm having some really difficult feelings coming up about the fact that you went and had tea with this other person," versus "You went and had tea, and you made me jealous, and you completely disregarded my feelings, and you didn't think about me at all," and you may be feeling that way. It doesn't mean that if you feel that way that that's wrong, but it's really about what you're needing in that moment.
Most likely what you're needing is to be heard and to be received and to be comforted by your partner. If you can at least shift to using statements that describe you and describe your needs and your actions, it's going to increase the chances that your partner's going to be able to hear you and receive you in that moment instead of just hearing criticism and attack, which is most likely to result in a defensive response right away.
Jase: I would say another thing to think about for that is communicating at times when you're not feeling the jealousy as much. For a lot of people, we only bring something up that's maybe a little uncomfortable with our partner when we're right in the heat of it. It's right as you're about to go out on a date, or it's as we're trying to get to bed tonight and you have to work tomorrow because you were on a date yesterday, and it's on my mind now and I'm upset right now so I need to talk about it now.
While there is some value in addressing things as they come up, having some time set aside in advance-- and we're big advocates of having a regular check-in for your relationships, but having that time to talk about it when you're not right in the heat of being upset is helpful for two big reasons.
One is just you have more of your faculties about you, but two is that having it set in advance means that-- like for me, when stuff comes up, sometimes I go, "Oh." I'm like, "I'm annoyed about this. I'm frustrated about this, but you know what? I know that we have our time set aside in a couple of weeks, so this isn't so bad that I need to talk about it right this second. I'll wait a couple of weeks. Maybe I'll even make a note for myself or write in my journal, on my phone, or on paper, or whatever, and say, "Okay, this is what I'm feeling. I'm so mad that she did this thing or whatever.""
Really often I'll get to that a week or two weeks later, or whenever it is that we have that time set aside and I'll read back through my notes. I'm like, "I mean, hmm, yes, we'll talk about it but I don't feel like I did then." It also helps you know I'm going to get to this so I don't need to stress about talking about it right now when I'm the most upset.
Emily: Yes. I just do want to throw out the acronym HALTS which we talk about in a lot, Hungry, Angry, Lonely and Tired, and we also threw in Drunk into that one, or Drugs, or--
Dedeker: Sick.
Emily: Exactly, Sick is in there. Just if you were any of those things, potentially, you're not going to be feeling at your best, so perhaps, stop the conversation and deal with those things before you come back to them. I think that applies in jealous situations as well, not just fights or whatever, but whatever it's about, especially if you are feeling super jealous, maybe take a minute like calm your physiological response and then come back to the issue at hand.
Sara: What about some tips for the receiving partner of this conversation? Because I'm going to tell you my own personal experiences, I think very similar to you, Dedeker. I used to have a lot of issues with partners who were jealous who would come and tell me about it, and I'd get so annoyed and frustrated with them. I'd be like, "Why aren't you over this? Why aren't you more involved than this?" Tips for the receiving partner of this conversation.
Dedeker: I would say, this isn't just on the receiving partner. First of all, anything that you can do to just listen openly and compassionately, listen first without rushing to being defensive, really bring your curiosity. I think your curiosity needs to be your first foot forward of just really trying to understand where your partner is coming from and what they're feeling. That's not always easy to do. Again, it helps if you're not hungry, angry, lonely, tired, drunk.
Emily: Drugs.
Dedeker: Drugs, sick, any of those things. Then, I think, the next most important part of the conversation is, again, bringing that curiosity about what's the purpose in your partner telling you about this? Is it just that they just want you to know? They just want to be heard. It's just important for you to know that they're feeling this way. Is it that they just want reassurance and comfort and love? Is it they just want you to tell them that you still think they're hot? Are they asking for something specific? Are they asking you to not hang out with this person anymore? Are they asking, "Hey, I would like for you to flirt with me in that same way," or "Hey, I would like us to also go on this particular type of date"?
I think that's the best thing that I can offer to the receiving end. Of course, if your partner comes in like a wrecking ball, really aggressive and really critical, it can be really hard to do that and be compassionate. If you're with a partner who's constantly coming in that way, there may be some other issues to address. If that's not the case, I think lead with curiosity, I would say.
Emily: I think that's great. I think there's not a lot more than one can ask for. If you are also feeling super energized, anxious, and intense in that moment because of this information, then perhaps, give yourself a moment once you hear it because so many of us just react immediately upon hearing something. We don't give ourselves time to process, and it's important to do that if we can.
Dedeker: Yes. If you have a lot of past experience and relationships of "my partner expresses jealousy," and that means they're asking me to do something, that means they're trying to control me in some way-- Definitely, I know this is true about myself, this is true about a lot of people that I've worked with that can preload that response to not want to listen.
Emily: We're all individual and we need to realize that our relationships are as well, as difficult as that is.
Dedeker: Yes.
Sara: On the Instagram poll that I actually put up about this jealousy topic, I did ask my followers the question, "Can feeling some jealousy be erotic for you?" 62% of people said, "Yes."
Emily: Wow.
Sara:
Emily: Sure, sure.
Dedeker: It's actually a slight majority.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Yes.
Sara: This leads me into my next question, "Why am I turned on by jealousy?"
Dedeker: Why are you, Sara, turned on by jealousy?
Sara: It could be me. I would like to know the answer to this as well, but this question is from one of my followers. "Why am I turned on by jealousy? Sometimes, I fantasize about my partner sleeping with other women, and it's hot because I feel mildly jealous, but I'm not sure I would really like this to happen in real life."
Jase: Yes.
Sara: Response.
Jase: Gosh, I mean, there's so much there and it's awesome. I love that the listener is able to even see that and say that and understand what's going on. There's a bunch of pieces there.
Emily: What is going on?
Sara: Why is it such a turn-on?
Jase: First of all, this is something that, who is it, Dr. Ryan, what's his first name?
Sara: Oh, Ryan Witherspoon.
Jase: No.
Sara: Oh, Christopher Ryan.
Jase: Christopher Ryan.
Sara: Christopher Ryan. Yes.
Emily: Two verse names in one name.
Jase: Two different Dr. Ryans. Yes. Dr. Christopher Ryan loves to talk about this a lot about studies where one of the most popular searches for porn for men is gang bangs or multiple men with one woman, which in our normal day-to-day relationships, most men don't want other men with the woman that they're dating. Again, I'm assuming heterosexual men here because that's who this data was about. He likes to bring that up a lot to talk about how there's this kind of maybe competitiveness or jealousness that feeds into getting turned on.
Dedeker: Testosterone production. Testosterone production.
Jase: Right. Testosterone production. It's like, "Oh, yes, but I'm going to do her so much better and put so many more babies in her or whatever."
Emily: Oh, I see. Ew, ew. All of a sudden the women are like, "What?"
Jase: Yes, I know. Yes, totally. I think that this is not actually something that's unique to heterosexual men at all, that there is something there about this thing's great because I know other people want it and so now I want it. It's the same reason why we buy the newest iPhone or whatever.
Emily: Yes, or why people are like, you said this earlier that, "Oh, you're a little jealous of me. Oh, that's cute. Oh, I kind of like that." Then it happens in that fashion. Interesting.
Dedeker: Yes, I think about the work of Esther Perel, she talks a lot about how, particularly in long-term relationship, what feeds desire is we do want to feel close and we want to feel safe, but also we need distance as well in order to feel desire.
Emily: Yes, there's sexiness to that.
Dedeker: Yes. It doesn't necessarily have to be I want my partner to be gang banged or it doesn't necessarily have to be I want my partner to have sex with other people, but it could be my partner just having a separate social life, having other hobbies, having other passions. The way that I think about it is it's almost like we like having a runway that we can pursue along because the pursuit is sexy. The sense of distance is sexy. I suspect it may be some of that.
Again, normalizing the fact that we can fantasize about things and get turned on by things that we just don't actually want in real life, and that's totally fine. That's a very common part of the human experience, I think.
Jase: Yes, and that's the piece I wanted to come back to.
Emily: Sure, sure.
Jase: I think it's really astute of your listener to realize, "I'm not sure that I would actually like this in real life, in practice." That's why humans are so cool, because we have imaginations and we can role play, and that this could be something to explore.
Emily: In a safe way.
Jase: Yes, in a safe way that's like, "I just want to think about this and maybe let's play with that."
Emily: Let's role play. Let's talk about it.
Jase: You tell me as if that had happened.
Emily: Or I can be the sexy stranger that I can feel jealous of later.
Jase: Right. You could be on the other side.
Emily: Or something. I don't know.
Jase: No. Absolutely. That's a great idea right there. You get to be both sides of it. You go to the store and buy a wig or some different clothes or do something different. I'm like, "I'm this new person that we're just hooking up with." Then later you can be you being jealous of that, and then getting turned on by it.
Emily: Amazing.
Jase: I love just being able to explore those options without it having to be, "I want you to go do that," if I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with that. The worst thing you could do would say, "I think this is hot." Your partner goes, "Cool, check. I will go do that."
Dedeker: Bye.
Jase: Then it's actually super upsetting to you and damaging to your relationship. You don't want that, but there's a whole world of other things you could try that could be super hot.
Sara: Yes. I think for me, my personal experience is that sometimes when I see other people desire my partner, it makes me-- it reminds me, I think, sometimes about how desirable they are. Sometimes, especially when you've been in a relationship for a while, sometimes you may get so familiar with a partner that you're seeing their dirty laundry, you're seeing all of that clutter that they've left on the table and stuff like that. Sometimes you forget that. I think that switch in perspective sometimes can be very erotic, at least from my personal experience.
Jase: For sure. Absolutely.
Dedeker: Hit the nail on the head.
Emily: Totally.
Sara: Last bit is a speed round.
Emily: Oh, boy.
Sara: It's actually called our Quickie, but Goodie. It happens in all of the podcast episodes that I do. It's a trademark. All of you guys have about just two seconds to spontaneously--
Jase: Two seconds?
Sara: Yes, spontaneously respond to my prompts here.
Emily: Amazing.
Jase: Do we each do it?
Dedeker: We all do it at the same time? No, don't do it at
Sara: You each do it. You each do it. I can sense the nerves already.
Dedeker: We just got to start. We're going to start with you.
Emily: We're all drama people. We can fricking improv.
Dedeker: We can zip, zap, zap. We can zip--
Emily: Zip, zap, zap. Okay.
Dedeker: You got to start.
Sara: Hold on. Hold on. Today, what we're going to do for Quickie by Goodie is a Never Have I Ever, the jealousy edition.
Emily: Oh, okay.
Jase: Wow.
Sara: I'm going to lead you each with a statement and I'm going to say, "Never have I ever, whatever, whatever." You guys just spontaneously say, "I have," or, "I've never."
Emily: Oh, gosh.
Sara: If you want to quickly, obviously, if you have and you quickly want to tell a story, that's cool. If you don't want to, it's fine. We'll go on to the next one.
Jase: Okay. I have or I've never.
Emily: I've never. Okay.
Sara: You know how to play “I’ve Never,” you've played this. You've played this.
Emily: Yes.
Sara: It's good that we've gotten enough alcohol in you guys by now.
Dedeker: That was all a plan all along.
Emily: You ply them with alcohol. Yes. Okay.
Sara: This is an easy one. Never have I ever felt jealous of a famous celebrity.
Emily: I have.
Jase: I have? I don't know. I don't know. That's a hard one.
Dedeker: I have.
Emily: I definitely have.
Sara: Anyone ?
Emily: I was just thinking, I saw recently The Menu. I saw Anya Taylor-Joy and I was like, "That bitch is so hot and she's so hot right now. I want to meet her." Also, my partner and I call her a "hot fish" because her eyes are over here. She's a really hot fish.
Jase: No, I am remembering now. I did feel so jealous when I found out back in middle school that Gavin Rossedale and Gwen Stefani got together. I was jealous of both of them because I liked both of them.
Dedeker: I was jealous of Evan Rachel Wood when I found out we have the same exact birthday, the same year. We're the same exact age and being like, "Oh, she's so much more successful."
Sara: Oh, really?
Jase: That's rough.
Emily: Yes. Got it.
Sara: Never have I ever experienced social media envy. You've seen somebody's life on social media.
Emily: I certainly have.
Jase: Isn't that what social media is for?
Emily: Yes. I didn't think there was any other option on social media. There's so many beautiful pictures of people in Hong Kong. Also, everyone is taking gorgeous pictures of themselves at Hong Kong Disneyland and I'm like--
Sara: How are they all so perfect?
Emily: I don't know. We did a special media day with Kayenne. I don't know if you know who that is.
Sara: I don't. She a singer?
Emily: Yes.
Sara: She's a singer. Okay.
Emily: She's super hot. We're seeing her all over the subway, the Metro, and she's super hot everywhere. I'm super jealous of her. She got a Prada bag yesterday, a Burberry bag and a Disneyland tree.
Sara: Oh my god.
Emily: A Christmas tree.
Sara: How dare she?
Emily: We have to pay for it and she doesn't have it. Anyways, that wasn't five seconds. I'm sorry.
Sara: How dare she? Never have I ever been a jerk to someone because I was jealous.
Dedeker: Oh, god-
Jase: Totally.
Dedeker: -times 2,000%.
Emily: Come on.
Jase: I think we've all talked about this already.
Dedeker: I threw away a metamour's toothbrush once.
Emily: Oh shit.
Jase: A metamour's toothbrush?
Emily: Oh, shit, . It wasn't mine.
Jase: Was it yours?
Dedeker: No, no, no. It wasn't yours. It wasn't yours.
Emily: It was not mine.
Dedeker: I can't say her name.
Jase: Okay. Yes, no, that's fine.
Dedeker: It's a girl.
Emily: I know who it is.
Jase: Hey, shh. We'll talk about it later.
Emily: Okay. Bye.
Sara: Never have I ever known something would make a partner jealous, but still went ahead and did it anyway.
Dedeker: Oh, yes. Definitely have.
Emily: Yikes.
Jase: I have. I can't think of an example, but I'm sure that I have.
Dedeker: I've done it from that place that you were mentioning of like, "Why can't they be more evolved? Why can't they get over it? I'm just going to do it."
Emily: Whoa.
Jase: Oh, I see. Okay. Yes.
Dedeker: They're being immature.
Jase: out of frustration.
Dedeker: Yes, it's out of frustration.
Emily: I'm sure I've done it, but I can't think of any either, but I bet I have because I'm petty, or at least I was once upon a time. Yes, yikes.
Sara: Okay. Never have I ever stalked an ex on social media.
Emily: Oh, Jesus.
Dedeker: Emily is the worst at this. Emily is like a professional--
Emily: I'm sorry, but I stalk our mutual ex, okay?
Dedeker: Emily stalks my exes that I don't stalk anymore.
Emily: I have stalked your exes as well, just because I'm interested in seeing what's happening with them because we're young. I don't know.
Sara: A deep interest.
Dedeker: Wait, but, Jase, have you? I don't think you have, really.
Sara: Never?
Jase: I'm going to say no, even though, sure, I've looked to see what an ex is up to, but there's a different feeling when it's like that, "I'm stalking because I want to know," versus just--
Emily: No. I'm stalking my ex because I'm angry at them.
Jase: Right. That's what I mean. It's different.
Sara: You feel worse, though, because their life looks perfect on social media.
Dedeker: Yes, you always feel worse.
Jase: That's never a good idea.
Emily: It does look perfect.
Dedeker: My therapist called it digital self-harm.
Emily: It is digital self-harm.
Jase: Wow.
Dedeker: Yes.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: I'm glad that you guys chastise me about it every single time. Correct.
Sara: That's it, guys.
Emily: Okay.
Jase: Oh, wow.
Sara: It's over.
Emily: I'm not mad, though. Wow.
Sara: You guys can breathe now.
Emily: Oh, boy.
Sara: I know you so much better.
Emily: Yes, I bet you do.
Dedeker: Well, I hope this is helpful, though, because I do think on our podcast, many people do perceive like, "Oh, you've been doing this whole non-monogamy thing for so long and you're so great at it and you're so perfect at it. You know all the right things to do in a relationship," but we struggle the same way. We're petty. We have weird stuff that comes up. Hopefully, it's more humanizing than anything.
Sara: For sure. It's very human. It's very normal. It's very common.
Emily: Definitely, yes.
Sara: Anyway, thanks so much, Jase, Dedeker, and Emily-
Emily: This was a blast.
Dedeker: This is so great.
Sara: -for joining me today. This was a great discussion, and-
Emily: It really was.
Sara: -lots of valuable tips, I think, for the people listening and great tools, great strategies. Guys, I hope you found it helpful. Listeners, I will love to hear from you. What did you take away from today's episode around managing jealousy? Find me @hellosarasense on Instagram or drop me a line at sarasense.com. I would love to hear from you, and if you want to support me and my work to build a more sex-positive world, I would appreciate it if you hit the subscribe button, if you shared this podcast, or if you wrote me a review. All of those things help me a lot, and thanks for listening, and see you on the next episode of Better In Bed.