467 - "You're gonna need therapy until you die" - A Conversation with TherapyJeff
Welcome, Jeff!
We’re so excited to have TherapyJeff on our show today!
Jeff Guenther, aka TherapyJeff, is, according to him, the most handsome therapist on the internet and is an international treasure who made Portland Oregon cool when he moved there in 2005. Jeff dedicates his time to creating short videos for TikTok and Instagram, and hosting his weekly podcasts, 'Big Dating Energy' and Problem Solved.’
Some of the questions Jeff answers today are:
When did you first realize you had an interest in intimate relationships and why did you decide to become a therapist?
You’ve really mastered the art of creating imaginative, short, profound videos that are often in the form of lists! What inspired you to use the list format, and what is your goal with the information you provide to those who watch your videos?
How do you think up the content for your videos?
On August 21st, 2023 you came out with a video titled, “What is a monogamish relationship and why do I want to be in one.” It set the polyamorous world on fire and really excited a lot of the non-monogamous content creators because a big, mainstream therapist had the balls to talk about non-monogamy in a positive way. What was some of the feedback and/or backlash you received about that and can you talk more about where you are when it comes to any form of non-monogamous relationships?
Why do you think non-monogamy is having a moment and how can we continue to normalize alternative relationship styles? Why is it important to do so?
What is it about alternative relationship styles that is still so threatening to a lot of people? What, if anything can be done to change that paradigm?
What advice would you give to someone whose partner is interested in exploring alternative relationship structures, and wants to begin exploring it while already in an established relationship?
Why do we think polyamory is trending?
When was the first time you heard about polyamory and what was your reaction to it?
Why do we think some folks think polyamorous people are obnoxious?
We also discuss some of the common terrible tropes in romantic movies, like:
You’re no one until somebody loves you.
Jealousy means someone is really in love with you.
Notorious player meets “the one” and changes their ways.
Love will happen when you least expect it.
Visit Jeff’s website TherapyJeff.com to learn more about him and his upcoming book, “Big Dating Energy,” and follow him on TikTok and Instagram at @therapyjeff!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're talking with therapist Jeff Gunther, LPC, also known as Therapy Jeff from Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and the social media formerly known as Twitter. Jeff Gunther, aka Therapy Jeff, is the most handsome therapist on the internet and is an international treasure who made Portland, Oregon cool when he moved there in 2005. He dedicates his time to creating short videos for TikTok and Instagram and hosting his weekly podcasts, Big Dating Energy and Problem Solved. Honestly, I can't believe he's on our show. What a blessing. Learn more about him at therapyjeff.com. Also, he wrote this introduction for me.
Emily: It's a beautiful introduction. We love it.
Jase: Thank you for joining us today.
Jeff: It's funny. Whenever a podcast asks me to write my intro, I'm just like, "Oh, I'm going to write it and you're going to say it."
Dedeker: That's great.
Jeff: I cannot wait. I think you're actually the first podcasters who have blatantly said that I wrote that intro. You couldn't even stand behind it for a second. That was such an immediate line right after the intro so I was prepared.
Dedeker: Well, I appreciate it because honestly, most of the intros or bios that people do write for themselves and submit to this.
Emily: They're dry.
Dedeker: They're dry. They're like people's resume. We sometimes end up packing and slashing editing just to make it a little bit more punchy and easier for people to listen to so I can appreciate you breaking the mold.
Jeff: Yes, you're welcome. I love to break the mold. That's what I do. I'm happy to be here and I'm excited to talk to you all.
Emily: What is the origin-- You're Jeff but what is the origin of therapy, Jeff?
Jeff: Oh, God. I've been a practicing therapist since 2005, got my degree in marriage and family therapy down in LA at USC. Right when I was done with grad school, I moved up to Portland in 2005 and I focused mostly on kids and families when I first started out and I taught some parenting classes and then I got really just annoyed with parents. I mostly saw kids and kids in middle school and just their parents are just the worst. It was the parents who needed to come in for family therapy or for counseling but they were always like, it's like the kid is the problem. I was having so much what therapists say counter transference towards these parents. I just couldn't find empathy for them because of my own bullshit with my parents so I was like, "I'm going to avoid parents altogether and I'm just going to start seeing individuals and couples for couples counseling." I was like, I only want to see couples that are still in love, the couples that are new or have fun fights and I want the couples that haven't like fucked for 10 years, haven't talked for five years because just bad vibes, like get out of my office. I think I started I accidentally stumbled into specializing and working with people that felt really anxious in relationships. Which meant I focused on an anxious attachment styles. Attachment styles have been trending for a while but really a lot in the last few years. Did that for a while and then the pandemic happened and I took a step back and tried to have easier days and not see as many clients because I was seeing clients online like therapists do. I just wasn't-- It was energy sucking instead of energetic. I'd usually see my clients in person and I'd feel really excited at the end of the day but then seeing them online, I was just depleted and I got really into watching every single season of Survivor. Are you Survivor fans?
Emily: I was a big Survivor fan as a young person for sure. I definitely watched the very first season. I think I watched maybe at least the first 10 seasons with my mom.
Dedeker: I didn't know that about you.
Emily: Yes and she still watches it. It's incredible so no--
Jeff: It's an amazing show.
Emily: It's an impressive show.
Jase: I watched the first few and then I had a relationship for several years with a woman who dated a guy who was on Survivor.
Emily: Oh shit. Really?
Jeff: Which guy?
Jase: Well, I could not remember his name because I didn't watch it that much but what I remember was, one, she was like, "Nah, let's not watch Survivor. Not into it." One and then two, she was like, "Yes," he has complained since then sometimes about how the show made him out to be egotistical or whatever. She's like, "I think it was accurate." That's the gossip I have.
Emily: Rough.
Jeff: You're not naming names, I guess.
Jase: Honestly, I do not remember. I couldn't tell you. Even if you showed me all their pictures, I'd be like, "Maybe that one. I don't know."
Jeff: Well, when I started watching during the pandemic, there was 40 seasons and so I went through every single season with my girlfriend at the time. I had just gotten a new girlfriend in the pandemic and I think my opening line might have been, do you want to watch 40 seasons of Survivor? She's like, "Let's fucking do it."
Emily: Let's go.
Jeff: Survivor weirdly became our kink and it took about a year to get through that show. When I was done with Survivor, I felt bored and I was like, I need some creative challenge now and therapy and TikTok was trending and I was scrolling on TikTok just like everybody else and I was like, "Oh, this feels like a good creative challenge to see if I can create content that people might be interested in." It was also during the pandemic when Big Therapy was doing its thing. Like Talkspace and BetterHelp so Silicon Valley decided that they can make money off of therapy so they created all these campaigns to de-stigmatize therapy and it worked. I'm not a fan of Big Therapy but they did do good work in their annoying fucking ads.
Emily: Telling everyone it's okay.
Jeff: That it's okay and you're cool.
Dedeker: Well, also the influence of the pandemic where there's nothing to hide behind. There's no being able to hide behind, no, I'm totally okay. It's fine. That at least at the very least, there was at least this sense of collective suffering of this really freaking sucks.
Jeff: Collective suffering and we're all on our phones at home and I started making content about therapy and the fourth video went viral and that was that.
Emily: Here you are.
Jeff: Now I'm on your podcast.
Emily: There you go.
Jase: Now you've made it. You've reached the pinnacle.
Jeff: Exactly.
Emily: That's going to be in our intro when we go on your show eventually. We'll be lauding this day. You cover a lot of ground, talking about mental health, talking about relationship advice. For you, what's, I guess, what's the spark? What's the seed? Like when you're thinking about a topic that you really want to dive into, where does it come from for you? Does it come from your clients? Does it come from something you're pissed off about? Where do you find that?
Jeff: I've gone through phases. At first when I started making content, it was like, I have so many one liners as a therapist that are repeats my clients over and over again. That's probably going to connect with a lot of people. What was the first ones? It was like, you're not needy, you're just with a partner that can't meet your needs sort of thing and that feels very inspiring so I was like, "Oh, okay, well I'm going to go down the validation path" because I feel like there's not a lot of people historically, I guess, it's changed maybe a little bit now but there's not a lot of people validating your big feelings, vulnerability is weakness, that kind of bullshit. I was like, "Oh, I'll just rail against that a little bit." I got some critical or negative feedback when I started going too into your feelings matter with like, this guy is just a toxic validator. He'll validate anybody.
Dedeker: That's a new one.
Jase: I haven't heard that.
Dedeker: That's a new one. The internet is always going to find a way.
Emily: Yes, there's always something.
Jeff: He's not toxically positive. He's more of like a toxic validator and he shouldn't be and I was like, "I'll take that. I like being a toxic validator. I'll validate everyone's feelings and emotions."
Dedeker: Well, okay but I'm curious to drill into that a little bit. Do you think there could be such a thing as toxic validation or being a toxic validator?
Jeff: Maybe because I think the point that they were trying to make, which is not a bad point, I think is sometimes people need to be checked. There's a difference between feelings are, all feelings can be validated but behavior doesn't need to be validated. There's a difference between having feelings and having behavior. Behavior can be unethical or not moral or bad when feelings like, "They're just feelings." A lot of people, or some of the people that were watching were like, "I don't want you validating my ex who's watching your videos."
It also leans into this thing that comes up every now and then, which is there was just a video I made like a couple weeks where some TikToker was like, "The worst person you know is in therapy and their therapist is validating them and telling them that they're not selfish."
Dedeker: Their therapist is saying it's okay to be selfish every once in a while.
Jeff: It's okay to be selfish every once in a while when they're just like a horribly toxic piece of shit person that's a piece of shit to date or whatever. I think it comes from there and I get it. I think that the people that are watching it and they're like, "Jeff is a toxic validator." They're just not feeling validated by me, and I need to validate even more. I think.
Jase: Validate that. It is interesting, when you recognize this in yourself, it can be a little bit of a scary thing but that thing of, this person hurt me or has done something that I don't like, and so I want them to suffer and not being validated as part of that. That actually sucks. I think the feeling of wanting it, we can validate that perhaps but trying to put that into effect, I think most people would agree is immoral. Although often when they're doing it, they don't make that distinction when it's like, "I want to cut you off from all of your friends in support group by telling them they need to kick you out because you were mean to me, or something." That's a tough area for people to think about.
Jeff: It is. It's a tough area.
Jase: This is a lot of strong feelings.
Jeff: Oh my God. You hear about all the strong feelings on the internet. I think I was foolishly maybe like under the impression that I'm going to start making some content, and if it doesn't resonate with you, then you're just going to scroll on by. You don't have to--
Emily: Oh, you did. Did you?
Dedeker: That's so cute.
Jeff: I thought so, and I thought that like people were going to have their, be somewhat of like critical thinkers. Like, "Oh, what he's saying here applies to me. What he's saying here doesn't, and that's fine. It applies to other people." Obviously I made a mistake thinking that people might be like having their thinking cap on or something. Whatever, we all learn our lessons. I leaned into validating people's feelings and then I was like, "Well, here's some like, relationship tips. How can I get really practical and give people tools to feel more connected in their relationships?
Since I've talked about relationships and I've done couples counseling for 20 years, I know a lot about it." That was really easy to talk about. Then eventually I wrote this book that you can pre-order now called Big Dating Energy, and I'm continuing to make content. The problem is that like every now and then I get really burnt out.
Emily: Oh, it does. Sure.
Jeff: I feel like I've said it all and what the fuck else can I say here?
Dedeker: We can relate to that for sure. It's interesting to connect some dots here, particularly about the validation piece and also about relationships. I saw that post that you were talking about, the most selfish person, is getting validated by their therapist right now. I also initially had that knee jerk reaction of like, "Oh no, that sucks. Oh no, what a Gosh, is this the right industry to be in?" Then also from working with couples and going through couples therapy training, that something that's fundamental there is that you can't be checked unless you feel validated and understood.
That happens with couples all the time as well. It's like you cannot really talk about the things that maybe how your partner messed up over here, how you wish that they'd done something different or you wish that they were aligned with you in some way. They're not going to be able to hear that from you unless they feel like validated and understood and cared for and fundamentally loved. It is a little bit of this thing I can think, what Jase was talking about is we can't necessarily just throw someone in the garbage because, those reality checks can't happen unless the validation happens first. I would argue.
Jeff: Exactly. You have to create that rapport with them. They have to trust you. Then you start usually like subtly bumping up against bull shit and trying to challenge them and show different perspectives. It takes a long time to do that. Like I said in that video, sometimes people go to therapy, feel validated and then stop going to therapy once they start getting challenged. I think, and also like therapists are not as stupid as you fucking think they are. We know what we're doing and we also understand that the story we're getting from the client is incredibly biased. You are the fucking hero. I get it. I understand. We all think that about ourselves. We're taking that into consideration while you're telling us your story.
Emily: Can I ask, both of you from a couple's therapist standpoint, how do you parse out the bull shit from each individual? Because there are two people who are both the hero of their own story, giving you potentially two very different sides of the story. How do you meet in the middle, or what do you do there? That sounds just very challenging to me.
Jeff: Well, I want to know-- we're told as a therapist, like, "Don't take sides." Do you secretly take someone's side? Are you a human being in the office being obviously you're right, you're wrong.
Dedeker: I would say there's a certain percentage of the time where yes, I for sure secretly take sides.
Emily: I also feel like I've had a therapist when I've been in couples therapy who has absolutely taken my side, and then my partner didn't want to go back because he was pissed about it.
Dedeker: I would argue that sometimes someone can be really hypersensitive to, "Oh no, this person validated something that my partner shared, and like my heels are dug in on that being wrong." There's even the slightest hint that therapist is validating even a piece of what my partner is saying, I automatically interpret that as, "Oh, this therapist is taking a side." It's a really tricky dynamic.
Jeff: It's a tricky dynamic. I use a line in therapy that maybe you use or you can steal from me that I probably stole from somebody else. Which is when one of the clients say like, "Oh, you're taking their side." I usually say in a smarmy therapist way. Like, "I'm not taking your side, I'm taking the side of the relationship."
Dedeker: Oh, that's a good one.
Jeff: That's so good. It hits so hard. It's right. That's is actually what I'm trying to do here. Sometimes if one of the partners isn't speaking up and doesn't have a voice or isn't feeling understood, then I'm gonna try to pump them up a little bit and you're going to think that I'm taking their side but really I'm just trying to make it so. It's also another cliche couples counselor thing is that, this isn't true all the time but there is no objective truth. There's just like two or however many people are in there.
There's just like two or three or four valid subjective truths. All of your truths are valid. Here's me like being a toxic validator. We're not here to figure out who's right or who's wrong. Even if internally, I think one of you is being a suchfucking a turd, I have to make sure that's not how I'm behaving. It's not coming off.
Dedeker: I would agree with that. I really try to use that. I suppose as the moment to highlight the fact that there's competing narratives and the discomfort of that and sometimes the discomfort again, for even me listening to both of those competing narratives because I come up with my own narrative of what I think the truth was, which is also not 100% true. There is a tension there.
Jeff: Exactly.
Jase: Actually, this is something that has been on my mind just in general recently, in particularly in talking to men and working with men but often when it comes to couples counseling in a heterosexual relationship, there can often be a resistance from the male partner that comes from a sense of, I just don't have, and maybe they won't admit it like this. I don't have the skills to express myself emotionally as well as my female partner does. I'm at such a disadvantage that I don't want to go because I'm going to lose. Again, going back to like the taking sides and then also just a comfort with talking about emotions or not.
Jeff: Connected to that is this trend online or in dating apps or in our culture right now where we're asking them to get better at being emotionally intelligent and step up and it's hot if you go to therapy and you put that on your dating profile or something. I get these really weird fucked up messages every now and then from men who are saying, "It's because of you that my girlfriend broke up with me."
Emily: You're like, "How am I supposed to take that?" Why would they even say that? What are they referring to?
Jeff: If I ever get recognized in public, the most common thing that is said to me, well, 95% of the time, it's like a woman that recognizes me in public. They'll come up to me and they'll say, "It's because of you that I broke up with my boyfriend."
Jase: The guys are not wrong. The men are not wrong.
Jeff: Maybe the guys need to take some accountability or see this as a growth opportunity. I want to validate their experience, but I also don't care about them. They're not my demographic. I do care about them, but that's a trend.
Emily: Interesting.
Dedeker: Okay. Maybe this is something you can relate to, though, because yes, we also have gotten messages from people of, "Oh my God, you've helped either save my relationship," or, "Helped me end my relationship," or, "You saved my life," or, "You really helped me on this nonmonogamy journey," or things like that. Then we also sometimes get the weird messages or the messages that come filtered through about what I read as, "Yes, I took this particular episode you created, and I weaponized it against my partner to make sure they know how wrong they are about this thing."
Often on our show, we really come back to, please don't weaponize this shit. Please don't weaponize this tool. I wonder about that, where maybe the darker side of the coin is that it becomes easy to weaponize this. Therapy Jeff said this, and this is totally your problem.
Jeff: Yes, it's a real thing. It's funny because now we call this therapy speak. Have you heard that term?
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Yes.
Jeff: There's therapy speak, and people are learning therapy speak from whatever, TikTok, Instagram, whatever.
Emily: Let's unpack this or whatever.
Dedeker: This is a boundary for me.
Jase: I just don't feel like this is a safe space for me to express myself.
Dedeker: Oh God.
Jeff: The thing is, is that before the term therapy speak, there was another term for it in the '90s, I think, which was psychobabble, which is a lot worse. Therapy speak is an upgrade, honestly. Pychobabble was just really diminishing that if you ever talked in any emotional way or use psychological language, they're just like, "Shut the fuck up." You are demeaned and diminished or rolled eyes.
I think that it's trending in the right direction, but there are some-- I wonder, and I don't know what you all think about this, and maybe I'm just telling this to myself to make myself feel better, but I feel like the assholes out there that are going to manipulate people are going to use therapy speak or anything else to be a piece of shit. Right?
Emily: Absolutely.
Dedeker: For sure. Yes.
Jeff: We saw it happen with Jonah Hill. Do you remember?
Dedeker: Yes. It's the very famous-
Emily: Oh boy.
Dedeker: -Jonah Hill's boundaries.
Emily: A lot of people wanted us to talk on that, and we were like, "We're not touching that one. Sorry." Like, "We don't want to go there even. That's a rough one."
Jeff: That happened where Jonah Hill's texts were leaked by his ex-girlfriend, Sarah Brady, who's the surfer, right?
Emily: Yes.
Jeff: It happened on a Friday or something, and I saw it come across my feed, and I was like, "Oh, Jonah Hill is using the word boundaries in the wrong way, and he's being controlling and manipulative." I'm going to go ahead and make a video about here's a really great example of somebody using therapy speak in the wrong way. Then that video blew up and got millions of views in that afternoon or something. Then Sarah Brady DMed me.
Dedeker: Oh, wow.
Emily: Amazing.
Jeff: Slid into my DMs, and she was like, "I'm a big fan of you. I feel so validated that you're taking my side." I was like, "Oh, no, I'm in this weird--"
Emily: Now you're involved --
Dedeker: Now you're part of the conversation.
Jeff: Yes. Then I felt gross. I should have been more thoughtful because while I don't like what Jonah Hill put out there, and he was using therapy speak to manipulate his girlfriend, her ex-girlfriend now, it was private messages. It was private messages that he thought was going to stay private. I'm not defending Jonah Hill, just to be clear. I'm not blaming Sarah. That was a good display of-- That was an educational moment for everybody, and I think we're all fine now. I was in the middle of this really weird thing that I should have been more thoughtful, I think, about stepping into.
It was a good example of therapy speaking, people weaponizing it. If you're going to weaponize my content or your content, then you're a piece of shit and there's nothing I can do about it.
Jase: Yes. Well, instead, we just commissioned a song to be written about not weaponizing our tools.
Emily: That's true.
Jase: We each have our own techniques for getting that.
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: Before we go on, I want to give a quick shout-out to our amazing community members in our Discord and our Facebook group. These are all people who are part of our private discussion group tier on Patreon. These communities are such cool places where people are actually there to support each other and listen and have constructive conversations, which feels like it's a rarer and rarer thing to find on the internet these days.
It's just been an incredibly inspiring community to be able to be part of.Our Discord server is really cool because there are channels for all sorts of different topics, everything from work talk to crafts to parenting to being polyamorous when you're over 40. All sorts of different topics, as well as some channels where you can talk about games and just have fun with fellow Multiamory listeners. It's very, very cool, and most importantly, it helps us support this show and keep this going and make it available for free for everybody out there every week in the world.
This is also made possible by our sponsors on this show. If you take a moment, check them out. If they seem interesting to you, use our promo codes or use our links. Those are in our episode description as well. That will directly help support this show and keep it going as well. Thank you so much.
Emily: Speaking of another viral video of yours, on August 21st, 2023, you came out with this video called what is a monogamous relationship, and why do I want to be in one? The polyamorous community kind of blew up at this because first of all, somebody who is a really big deal on TikTok and on Instagram, who is more mainstream, maybe, or at least mainstream feeling in the eyes of those in the nonmonogamous community, and you're talking about nonmonogamy and that's really awesome.
I saw so many amazing comments and people reposting it and people were really excited about it, but then I also saw a lot of people were really upset with you and saying, "Okay, I'm not going to follow you anymore," things like that. At least from our standpoint, and I think a lot of the content creators in this space, in the nonmonogamous space, it was so great to see that. Why do you think that nonmonogamy is important to talk about? Can you just talk about why you even put that out there in the first place? Because it was surprising and it was really cool to see somebody who maybe is more mainstream doing that.
Jeff: I was honestly a little, I don't want to say disappointed, but surprised/disappointed. I was surprised that a lot of my core audience was upset about it. I thought that it wouldn't be as big of a deal as it was, but I felt really supported by the poly community and that felt really sweet.
Dedeker: Of course. I feel like we're watching all the layers peel away from you of on this journey to just jadedness about the internet, because we've been in this scene for 10 years now. We've been putting out content for 10 years. We're a little further along that jadedness journey.
Jeff: I don't get how you've done it this long, because I've--
Emily: We don't get how we have done it this long either. I think it's inertia. You just can't stop at some point.
Jeff: I don't know. I'm planning. I'm trying to get out. I don't want to do this forever.
Emily: I get that.
Jeff: I don't know where I saw this, but they were saying the average length of a content creator is three years. I remember seeing that when I first started creating content. I was like, "Babe, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life. What are you talking about?" Now I'm just like, "I need an exit plan. This is ridiculous." It's videos like that where I, again, wasn't understanding what the impact was going to be, and I wanted to just sort of-- I have monogamish relationships, and I was like, "Why aren't I talking about this more? I think this is really interesting, so maybe I'll just lean into it and create more different content that aligns with who I am anyways."
Then that happened, and I was like, "This doesn't really feel-- This feels supportive and also not safe." I backed off a little bit and it's still something that I think about and play around with. I usually only talk about non-monogamy or my monogamish relationships on podcasts that are long-form.
Dedeker: Sure. You can get more nuance.
Emily: Yes.
Jeff: Yes. That makes sense.
Jase: I did want to ask you a little bit more about some of the reactions and what you saw with your therapist hat on. Rather than your personal, this felt yucky, but more from your therapist, where now your client is all of your audience.
Emily: Millions and millions of followers.
Jase: This is something that we've encountered quite a bit, honestly, less now than we did when we first started this 10 years ago, but that when people have a negative reaction about even the suggestion of nonmonogamy, it's sometimes a very strong, very intense reaction. Even if you're not saying you should do this, you're just saying, some people do this, I do this. This is an okay thing to do.
The strength of that reaction at the time and even still sometimes surprises me, sometimes catches me by surprise. I'm just curious for you less being steeped in this world. What do you feel like is going on there in what you noticed in your audience?
Jeff: I think there's a fear of the unknown. I think they have this parasocial relationship with me where they really trust me and all of a sudden, I'm talking about non-monogamy and monogamish stuff and now they don't know if they can trust me. Now all of a sudden, they're let down and they're scared. Also, I can't repair the relationship with them one-on-one so they're just like left out there. There's also just misunderstanding about non-monogamy. I think that also people maybe they've been in relationships where there's been infidelity or cheating and then non-monogamy has been used as an excuse or something, or they've like asked to.
Jase: We do see that sometimes.
Jeff: Their partner wants to be non-monogamous and now they feel like they're being betrayed. Also, this is getting bigger, but I feel like non-monogamy or polyamory is a vocal minority and I think that some people get really annoyed or upset or think that polyamory, poly-people are obnoxious or something. I think that a lot of people thought that non-monogamy is not okay or not their vibe and they lost trust in me and they're really mad and disappointed that all of a sudden, they find the stuff out about me. I can try to understand where they're coming from, but it was weird. I didn't like it.
Dedeker: Well, I appreciate you taking the risk. I had a very similar experience a few years ago that the Gottman Institute commissioned me to write a couple of pieces for their website about non-monogamy. They published the first one that was a personal essay about my personal experiences and then when it was time to publish the second one, they were like, "Actually, never mind." Because I think that it courted just enough of those like very vitriolic reactions and especially from a behemoth like the Gottman Institute. They still paid me for the second piece, but they just never published it.
I think I've seen that from various mainstream outlets that this is what happens is they dip their toes in the water of like, "Let's expand our understanding of relationships," and then the reaction is so strong that it's like, "Never mind, we're never going to make that content again."
Jeff: Right. You hope that folks like the Gottmans will make more content like that to-
Jase: Absolutely.
Jeff: -more like talk about it even more. I want to start a rumor about the Gottmans. I am going to do it right here with you.
Jase: I love this.
Dedeker: This is great, okay.
Jeff: I just want to say I love the Gottmans, they do important research, they are like mommy and daddy therapists, and we love them.
Emily: Yes.
Jeff: We get it, they're legends, what the fuck ever. In my book that I wrote, I quote the Gottmans like four or five times.
Dedeker: As did we.
Jase: As did we.
Emily: As did we, yes.
Dedeker: It's like unavoidable to quote them.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: Yes.
Jeff: I plead for them to adopt me even they are very lovable people. However, you have to write out a book proposal first before you write your book. I wrote my book proposal, and I titled my book Date Great. That's not the title of the book anymore but at the time I was like, "I like it. It's two words, they're rhymey, and it's easy to remember." The title is Date Great and in this book proposal, I make a joke where I'm going to write my next book and it's going to be called Fight Right. It's like a funny joke, I'm very funny in my book, I'm a hilarious writer.
I take the book proposal, and I send it to like 10 different publishing companies and one of those publishers is the publishers for the Gottmans, all the Gottman books. They read my book proposal, but they pass. They read my book proposal and they saw that I made like a funny joke about wanting to write a book called Fight Right and then a month ago, these motherfucking Gottmans released a book called Fight Right.
Emily: Oh, shit.
Dedeker: Oh, oh.
Emily: Oh.
Jeff: I was like, "Did they name that?" Because my editor was just like, "It's not going to be called Date Great, here's 10 other titles that we think that you should choose from. I was like, "I bet their publisher and editor took my Fight Right so that's my book."
Jase: Okay, that's your gossip.
Dedeker: That's the rumor that we're going to start-
Jeff: That's the rumor that we're all going to be in.
Dedeker: -is that they're horrible plagiarists.
Emily: Oh my gosh.
Jeff: Gottmans are plagiarists.
Dedeker: All right.
Emily: Wow. Your name should be on the cover as a co-author of that.
Jeff: Yes.
Dedeker: There you go, the title.
Jeff: I co-authored that book.
Jase: Inspired by Therapy Jeff and so on.
Emily: Exactly. I love it. I just want to bring it back and ask why we all think that non-monogamy is having such a big moment right now? I mean, it has been on The New York Times, The New Yorker, that one book came out that was kind of controversial about non-monogamy and a very well-off white woman and her non-monogamous partners. Besides that, why do we think that so many people are so interested in it right now?
Jeff: I have no fucking idea but I'm really curious as to why. Eventually, I think that polyamory and non-monogamy has stuck around for a while, we've been talking about it for a long time, even if it hasn't been mainstreamed. I think that the kids these days are really starting to come around to it. I think that non-monogamy and polyamory, it's such a generous love it feels like so sweet. It's not possessive and there's something about just, monogamy is fine, I'm not going to knock monogamy you can choose monogamy, whatever but it can feel really possessive.
When there's non-monogamy, ethical non-monogamy, there's something that feels very generous about it and so that feels very sweet and maybe that's why some people are catching on to it because it feels nice. I don't know. It's like a fun topic to talk about maybe. I think that it can like create interesting conversations and you can get into debates and so maybe it's like the flavor of the week because it's a fun thing to fight about, I guess. I don’t know.
Dedeker: Yes. I have much more of a jaded take because I feel like at this point-
Emily: Of course.
Dedeker: -I've seen polyamory having a moment like five times now and all of those moments are maybe slightly different in flavor but to me I've seen it follow the same ebb and flow and up and down. I don't know. I've had a lot of people ask me that same question also of like, "Why is it having a moment right now?" It's the same. I'm like, "Yes, sure. You get two articles in The New York Times and The New Yorker it's going to have a moment. Is this moment very different from the moment that it had in 2018 or 2015 or, or 2011 when I was first starting to read about it? I don't know.
I guess history will tell maybe once I'm in my 80s and have gone through 50 more moments than I'll be able to tell.
Jeff: Yes, it does. It feels like Bitcoin. Every four years Bitcoin is trending.
Emily: Bitcoin is having a moment right now.
Dedeker: Yes, it's coming back around.
Jeff: All time high is right around the corner, I think, or I think it would have had.
Emily: Yes, apparently.
Dedeker: Does this mean we need to make some kind of polyamory related cryptocurrency?
Emily: Bitcoin. Oh, and just bring the two together. Wow.
Jase: I'm surprised we haven't yet. If we could keep track of our relationships in the blockchain, and then you get to know who you're connected to and have a currency out of it.
Emily: You’ve lost me but okay, got it.
Jeff: That's a good idea because that is a public ledger that cannot be changed and then you can see all the people that have been connected.
Dedeker: We're losing money if we don’t do it.
Jeff: That’s our coin. Just like Bitcoin at trends, it's very exciting. It feels like the newest trendy technology and then eventually it goes away again but every time it's trending like currently now, it feels like maybe Bitcoin will take over, maybe this is the time.
Dedeker: Right, maybe this is it. We're going to title this episode Polyamory is Bitcoin "Therapy Jeff", and then just see what happens.
Jase: See what happens.
Emily: Oh, boy. That'll be fun.
Jeff: Yes.
Emily: Well, why do we also think that non-monogamy is still so threatening to so many people even after all this time, and after I think we have sort of moved forward in terms of the way that we view alternative anything like alternative relationships, alternative people, alternative sexuality, alternative gender, all of those things I feel like has really moved in a direction of we are more aware of and also more accepting of and yet there are so many people who still see all that and want to just throw their hands up and say the world is ending. What's going on there?
Jeff: I feel like non-monogamy exposes your insecurities and you don't want to feel insecure and the best way to not feel insecure is to say that you're the asshole. There's nothing wrong with you, there's something wrong with everybody else. It's so that you don't have to grow, it's so that you don't have to evolve. It doesn't mean that you have to evolve into being polyamory it's just opening your fucking mind and being okay with shit. I think that a lot of people fight against evolution and growth and positive change, and it exposes what they fear the most and maybe that's why it's happening.
I know that whenever I'm in a new relationship, new-ish relationship, we started out as just sort of like monogamous and then becoming monogamish and then we're like, "Well, maybe we'll be poly." Instead of just having sex with each other and other people in the same room, we'll go out into different rooms, or we'll go on dates without each other or something. When you start to expand, all of a sudden there's these insecurities that come up that I thought I had gotten over, dealt with like I'm Therapy Jeff, I have a combined almost 4 million followers, I'm perfectly healthy. Yet still, there's all these things that I have to go through, and I had this reaction of just like, "Nope. I don't want to do any of this. Actually, I don't even know if this is for me anymore," which is not true. That's just what that came up for me.
Dedeker: Are you okay sharing? It doesn't have to be the juiciest deepest insecurity, but are you okay with sharing the stuff that came up for you?
Jeff: Yes. It's fine. I was thinking about it today. I was talking to my girlfriend about it. There's lots of times where I can feel a ton of compersion when I see her or a partner having pleasure, like, that is such a turn on, I love to see it, it's so sexy. Tell me all the details, I want to stare at you in not a creepy way, but a supportive, I'm turned on kind of way.
Then when we started thinking about doing other stuff and going on dates without each other, the feeling that I got, which I don't think I've felt in any other relationship was, again, this feels like a very generous love. I want you to go have all the orgasms. I can't give you all of the orgasms. I want us to have new novel experiences without each other. That sounds like a lot of fun. Really, what I think I actually wanted is to have new novel experiences with her.
I've slept with lots of people, and that's great. When you sleep with one person, you slept with them all, eventually. It feels like I know what this feels like, and I possessively almost wanted her to also have that with me. I was like, "This probably isn't true for the long run," it feels like right now, I'm oversleeping with other people without my partner. I want to have connective experiences with my person, but she wants to have other experiences maybe with other people, not me being there.
I was like, "Oh, no. We're not on the same wavelength." All of a sudden, we're seeing this differently, and now we have to compromise or figure it out or reign it in a little bit. Maybe we don't have the same definition of what our relationship or love or sex is going to look like. It's an uncomfortable conversation negotiating that sometimes. Also, what if we are not on the same page here?
Then, does the relationship end? Do I have to tolerate something that I don't like? Does she have to tolerate something that she doesn't like? I hate compromising. It's just a fucking lose-lose, it feels like. Compromising is essential for relationships, and maybe it's a good thing. There was the, "Oh my god. We're honeymooning. We're on the same page about everything." No. We're not. Fuck. That's what freaked me out and I'm currently working through.
Dedeker: I really appreciate you sharing because I'm sure that probably about 10,000 people listening are going to relate to that. Are going to be like, "Oh, yes. That's me. I'm going through some flavor of that, or I have gone through some flavor of that. That is so normal." Honestly, I think even for people who want a very traditional monogamous relationship, that moment of, "Oh, no. Wait. Actually, we're not on the same page about something about the structure of our relationship or how we define things, the spiral that comes through that and all the questions and then that layer of existential anxiety also." Of, "Oh, no. Is it all going to fall apart?"
Jeff: Oh, no, and also the grief of we were on the same page for six months and now we're not. We have to grieve that part of the relationship where we thought that everything was going to go swimmingly forever. She can change and I can change my mind whenever we want, and that's okay, but I secretly don't want us to change our minds at all. It's like, "Oh, no. Now I have to do this work." I'm pretty confident we're going to be able to work through this. It's that first thing that you have to really work through.
Dedeker: Well, it's so funny though, but I do think people in this space or people that have therapy training or people who've even been to a lot of therapy, it's I don't know why it's so easy to fall for that trap of, "Oh, but I did all the work. Oh, but I was over this thing." Then it's like, "Dang it. No. The work keeps on keeping on."
Jeff: I know. It does. Until you're dead. It's just you're always working on it.
Dedeker: Indeed.
Jase: Just in the past month, we had an amazing video discussion group. It's really more of a video processing group where people who are in our video discussion group member tier on Patreon get to come together and actually see each other's faces and hear each other's voices and bring whatever it is that they're going through, whatever it is they want some support with or help with.
Or honestly just a place where you can share something exciting or something hard you're going through with people who get it, that you don't have to do all the extra work of explaining the circumstances of your relationship type or your gender or things like that. It's just such a cool inspiring place, and being able to do that in an actual real time seeing people's facial expressions way is just a really neat way to connect.
Of course, all of those people also get to be part of our private Discord server and our Facebook group if they want to, where we have some amazing discussion on all sorts of topics, and people are just really there to support each other. Thank you to all of you who do that. If you want to check that out, go to multiamory.com/join, become one of our patrons there. Of course, that helps support this show and keep it coming every week to everyone in the world for free.
Of course, take a moment, check out our sponsors. If any seem interesting to you, use our promo codes and links, and that does directly help support our show, which also helps us to keep this show going and growing. As we're coming up toward the end of this episode, we wanted to play a little bit of a game here. We have done some episodes in the past where we've done reviews of portrayals of non-monogamy in media.
We've done some episodes where we just talk about, in various conversations, how these different tropes or stereotypes of how relationships should go and how those can negatively affect us. Then you did a video back in September of 2023 called what Disney Movies Taught Me About Relationships. I feel like we're on the same page with some of these things. Emily actually put together a list of some of these common tropes for us to go through and just chat about and react to for a second here.
Jeff: Let's do it.
Emily: Okay. Here's the first one. You're no one till somebody loves you. That classic song.
Jeff: I feel like you're leaning into a lot of codependency there. Right?
Dedeker: That's true. Absolutely.
Jase: Also, I was just going to say also like singalism too, this idea that if you wanted to be single, you're not even a person. You're nobody. That sucks. That sucks.
Jeff: Yes. It does suck, and there's no real gray area there. That feels very black and white. There's also that, whatever, message I feel like comes through in all the romcoms or Disney movies. There's something very exciting and dramatic about that. I can see why people can latch on to it, but it feels very limiting.
Dedeker: If it's okay for me to jump out of order on this list, I want to talk about this one. Jealousy means someone is really in love with you. This was a really big one for me, not because of Disney movies, but because of Moulin Rouge, honestly. That I really learned that jealous boyfriends, if they sing to you about it, are really hot.
Emily: Well, you just love Ewan McGregor.
Dedeker: I love Ewan McGregor. It was doomed from the start for me. There's something there about if a man is willing to sing to you about his jealousy, oh, God, he's yours.
Emily: He's the hottest. Wow.
Jeff: That goes into the possessiveness. Like monogamy, toxic monogamy, whatever, if you feel possessive about your person and you don't want anyone else to get them or have them, that means that you truly love them. You're being incredibly fucking controlling, actually.
Jase: I find that that one can happen on the opposite side too. Or because of that assumption, if you don't display possessiveness or jealousy of your partner, they might think you don't actually care that much. It's like we associate that with the casual dating style of, "Oh, whatever, man. I'm not so invested. I don't care so much." We associate caring with that possessiveness, that controlling jealousy.
We were just talking on a different episode about a research study looking at mate retention behaviors. One of the behaviors that they were looking at was provoking jealousy in your partner as a way to try to retain them as a mate basically to get them to want you more. It's so baked into a lot of our behavior because of that assumption.
Jeff: I know that I've done that in my 20s, when I was a kid and into my 20s and that feels connected to our parallel with nagging somebody, making them feel bad in order to want to get approval from me or something. Yes, it's gross.
Jase: A different kind of making them feel bad so they want you more. Yes. I've never made that connection before, but that makes sense.
Dedeker: I want to talk about this one. Sorry. I'm just jumping around-
Emily: No, go for it, go for it.
Dedeker: -to ones that are the most exciting to me, just taking the reins here. My apologies. I really like this, I mean, I don't really like it, but I'm intrigued by this trope of the notorious player meets the one and changes their ways. I think usually this is gender coded, usually it's gender coded that like-
Emily: For sure.
Dedeker: -the man is the notorious player and then he finds a way to become madly in love with the person who gets him to finally change his ways.
Jase: I feel like the version we have of this in our media with the genders flipped is that she's super focused on her job but meeting the one is what finally softens her to be a real woman who can love or something like that.
Dedeker: Interesting.
Jase: I feel like that's how we code those two-gender wise.
Jeff: Yes. If you love me, you'll change for me and you'll give up something really important to you, possibly if it's a woman giving up their job. Also, like the woman is going to tame the wild man.
Jase: Sort of like that trope.
Jeff: That kind of trope which is I think there's also guys that can believe in that too. They're trying to look for the woman that can tame them.
Dedeker: Totally.
Emily: Oh, yes. That's a good one.
Jase: Yes.
Jeff: When I see that happening or when that comes into my office with clients or people in relationships, there's this thing where they're looking at their wild times, whatever that means to them and they're trying to figure out how to let it go and grieve it. They're grieving their youth and they're choosing their partner who's taming them and they might not be aware of it but they're probably resenting the shit out of their partner who's "taming them" and now they're acting really different or something like settling down with this other person.
If you really lose yourself, leave yourself you're really setting yourself up for some long-term bullshit that you're going to have to deal with down the road.
Dedeker: Well, speaking of long-term bullshit, I think on the other side where I see this trope influencing women in particular, and especially women who date men is this internalized sense that if the guy that you're dating who's dating a bunch of other people and isn't giving you the attention that you want, isn't giving you the focus that you want, isn't initiating making plans, isn't texting you back at the frequency that you want that that's on you as the woman like you're not doing your job. That you need to be more appealing, you need to be more attractive or you need to find some way to manipulate him into chasing you instead of you being the one to chase him.
Where I feel like it doesn't come down to just straight up asking the person for the behavior that you want it becomes like there's something wrong with you, you're not performing your job because otherwise you would be able to be just so effortlessly charming and charismatic that he would want to be tamed by you.
Jeff: Yes, and then it becomes like a self-worth issue. I'm not good enough, if I was good enough then I would be able to tame him sort of thing and you wrap up your whole identity in these relationships sometimes.
Emily: True.
Jase: This is why every time when I'm in an airport and I walk by the bookstore and I see a copy of that Act Like a Lady Think Like a Man book-
Emily: Oh, God.
Jase: I want to take the 10 lighters or however many I'm able to bring through security and just light them all on fire right there in the airport.
Jeff: God, that's the worst.
Emily: This one, Demona Hoffman, who we've had on the show a couple of times said was one of her least favorite tropes period and it's that idea that love will happen when you least expect it. Now, I will say this does happen sometimes. Sometimes it just is out of the blue but her take on it was that you have to work at love and you have to work at sometimes finding love and that those who put effort into dating are actually going to be the ones who reap the rewards. Is that something that you all feel is the truth as well? Because I feel like sometimes that's the case but then sometimes it does just come and fall into your lap and that's cool.
Jeff: I really don't mind this one that much. Demona makes a good argument there, definitely but the reason I like it is that when you "stop looking for love" so let's say you're looking for love before you stop, a lot of times you get into this pattern of you're noticing the lack of love and you're scanning for all the fucking assholes out there. You talk to your friends about how everyone's like a piece of shit and yadda, yadda. Then you get into this sort of energy where you're just like nothing is working out for you. You're looking for love but you're expecting really poor results. When you let go of that, sometimes it just happens because you're not waiting for bad things to happen.
There's probably some sort of balance that needs to happen but that one doesn't bother me too much.
Dedeker: I like that reframe though because something that really gets under my skin sometimes when working with clients is I do think there's a particular flavor of, what's the term for it? Heteropessimism is what all the essays are that are going around or calling it that, yes, I suppose it's this assumption that I will be protected if I go into this situation expecting and looking for bad results. I don't want to layer in any kind of sense of like manifesting or that it's on you if you're getting bad results but I do think that sometimes that can hold people back.
Jeff: Yes. We can talk about manifesting if you want.
Dedeker: What have you got to say about manifesting?
Emily: Oh yes.
Jeff: I like to pick and choose things from manifesting that do work. I think that there's manifesting law of attraction stuff that can be really bad and toxic and not okay at all and very problematic but there is something to say about like changing what you're focusing on and expecting different results or hoping for different results that are creating a positive belief system or whatever. Who knows if you're actually magnetizing the thing into your life or whatever? It feels better and it feels more playful so go for it.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: Again, you heard it here first folks that therapy Jeff says, manifest the partner of your dreams. You can do it.
Dedeker: In direct quote.
Jeff: Certainly.
Emily: Good luck.
Jase: This has been fun. I feel like there's so many more tropes that we could go through but I think it's time for us to wrap this up. The way we love to do that is if our listeners have been having as good a time as we have, where can they find more of you and where can they pre-order your book?
Jeff: You can find me on Instagram and TikTok at Therapy Jeff. You can go to therapyjeff.com and you can order my book there through Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Powells.com. You can also listen to my podcasts called Big Dating Energy, same name as my book, and another podcast, a newer podcast called Problem Solved.
Jase: Nice.
Emily: Amazing.
Jase: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to have this pinnacle of your career here by being on our show.
Emily: God.
Jeff: Yes, I think that.
Jase: Sort of a thank you and your welcome is what I'm getting at here.
Jeff: This was really fun. You all are really good podcasters and easy to talk to so-
Emily: Oh, great.
Dedeker: Yes.
Jeff: -this was just one of those podcasts where I was just like, "I don't have to fucking prepare, this is a breeze. I'm going to have so much fun."
Emily: I’m so sorry.
Jeff: I really appreciate you having me.
Jase: Thank you.
Emily: Our question of the week which is going to be on our Instagram stories, is does practicing polyamory create insecurities or expose your insecurities? Really interested to see what you all have to say about that one and the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com/join.
In addition, you can share with us publicly on Facebook, TikTok, X or Instagram. Multiamory is created and produced by Jase Lindgren, Dedeker Winston, and me, Emily Matlack. Our production assistants are Rachel Shenerwork and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.