499 - Post-Nonmonogamy: Navigating Life After Polyamory with Andrea Zanin
Welcome, Andrea!
We’re excited to welcome Andrea Zanin to the show! Andrea Zanin, MA, is a white, nonbinary, middle-aged queer whose writing focuses on queer sex, nonmonogamy and BDSM/Leather. They have written for the Globe and Mail, The Tyee, Bitch, Ms., Xtra, IN Magazine, Outlooks Magazine and the Montreal Mirror. Their scholarly work, fiction and essays appear in a variety of collections, and they are the author of Post-Nonmonogamy and Beyond and, with Eve Rickert, the co-author of More Than Two, Second Edition: Cultivating Nonmonogamous Relationships with Kindness and Integrity. Andrea blogs sporadically at sexgeek.wordpress.com, where they created the ten rules for happy nonmonogamy and coined the term “polynormativity.”
Some of the questions Andrea addresses in this episode are:
When you were in your twenties, you were a blogger primarily writing about non-monogamy and kink. Cut to today when you’re in your 40s, and you’re writing about what life is like after one has moved on from non-monogamy. If we were to invite Andrea in their 20s onto the show, what would their opinion be about “Post-nonmonogamy and Beyond?”
The most often quoted figure on non-monogamy in the US and Canada is that 4-5% of the population is currently practicing some form of non-monogamy, and that up to 20% of the population has practiced some kind of non-monogamy in their lives. You extrapolate from this that at any given time, there are about three times as many former nonmonogamists as current ones. We’ll get to your theories about pathways to post-nonmonogamy a little bit later, but someone more traditional who has never experimented with any kind of alternative relationship might jump to the conclusion - clearly this must not work very well. People try it, get burned, and retreat back to monogamy. Do you think there is any credence to that?
What are the three main pathways that you think lead people into post-nonmonogamy life
You write about the idea of "compulsory sexuality" and how it relates to the "relationship escalator." How do you think compulsory sexuality impacts people's choices around nonmonogamy specifically?
You mention that sometimes going through repeated or intensive heartbreak can create a need for rest and recovery that may take someone away from non-monogamy. How can we distinguish between needing a healthy recovery period and retreating into unhealthy isolation or closed-heartedness?
You discuss how nonmonogamous experiences can shape a person's worldview even after they stop practicing. What are some of the lasting impacts you've seen nonmonogamy have on people's lives and relationships.
The book touches on the joys of solitude and how some people find contentment in being alone. How can listeners cultivate a positive relationship with solitude, whether they’re partnered or not?
Find more from Andrea on Twitter/X @sexsgeekAZ and BlueSky @andreazanin.bsky.social, or check out their blog at sexgeek.wordpress.com
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're discussing life after non-monogamy and how that might not always mean what you think it means. To do that, we are talking with author Andrea Zanin. Andrea Zanin is the author of Post-Nonmonogamy and Beyond and the co-author of More Than Two, Second Edition, which both just recently came out this year. Their writing focuses on queer sex, non-monogamy, and BDSM and the leather. They have written for several publications, including for the Globe and Mail, Bitch, Extra, IN Magazine, and the Montreal Mirror. You can find more of their writing at sexgeek.wordpress.com, where they created the 10 rules for happy non-monogamy and coined the term polynormativity.
Emily: I've never heard that one.
Jase: Andrea, thank you so much for joining us today.
Andrea: Thanks for having me.
Dedeker: Andrea, when you were in your 20s, you were a blogger, primarily writing about non-monogamy, kink, sexual education, and cut to today, when you're in your 40s and you're writing about what life is like after one has moved on from non-monogamy. If we were to invite Andrea in their 20s onto the show, what would their opinion be about this book Post-Nonmonogamy and Beyond?
Andrea: Well, I think past Andrea would be really excited to know that they'd finally made a book happen. That would be--
Dedeker: That would be a good thing. Very exciting. Yes.
Andrea: One of these lifelong goals that took a while to get to. There's that. Post-nonmonogamy was definitely not on my mind in my 20s. It was pre-enduring, and there were a lot of things have happened that I didn't see coming.
Dedeker: It's funny how life does that.
Andrea: Sure is.
Dedeker: Do you think your younger self would be shocked and appalled? Would it be, no, this is how I was going to be for the rest of my life or what do you think?
Andrea: No, I don't think that past me would be shocked and appalled. I think past me would be shocked about all of the things that got me there, if that makes sense. I don't think that-- because even in my 20s when I was writing about non-monogamy then, I was never a hardcore proselytizer in the sense of like this is what everyone should be doing, and it's the best and it's the most enlightened. That was never the line I took in the first place. To see that life happened and I came to a different place with it I don't think I would be upset. Also, it's important to say that post-nonmonogamy is not anti-nonmonogamy. It's not like a major mindset shift where suddenly I think non-monogamy is bad and no one should do it. That's not it at all. That would be shocking to past Andrea.
Dedeker: We've done like a complete 180 somehow.
Andrea: No 180 here. It's, actually, weirdly a pretty logical extension, really, of past Andreas thinking on this. Consistency over time, I think.
Emily: Can you define what post-nonmonogamy means to you then? Because I do think to the layperson, they may hear that term and say, "Okay, well, that must mean that this person doesn't love non-monogamy anymore or just isn't very interested in it anymore or maybe even wants to go back to more of a monogamous paradigm. What does it actually mean to you?
Andrea: Well, the book opens that up pretty widely, and I think that the answer would be a little different for each person who gets there. For me, the key is it's not about changing your mind that non-monogamy is okay. It's just recognizing that there is a point in your life where you're not doing it anymore and you don't want to. That to me, at least, is a very different thing than changing your mind about non-monogamy and going like "back to monogamy” or something else. It's really more about acknowledging where we are and the path that took us there and the decisions we made along the way and owning it.
Like saying, this is where I'm at, and acknowledging that being in a place where you're not doing non-monogamy anymore, whether you got there by accident or on purpose, you are choosing it now because it's the best choice in this moment of your life and recognizing that you're still a different person because of having done it in the first place than you would have been if you'd never done it at all. You carry something of that experience with you. This book opens up the question of what is that like for you? Because it's going to be different for each person depending on what their journey's been like.
It's also worth saying it's not a permanent state, right? Or it doesn't have to be. Maybe it will be if you choose, but it's possible to move from post-nonmonogamy back into non-monogamy. It open the question of what would that look like? What would it take to make you decide to give it another shot? Or is that just now, this is permanently you and it's going to be not at all forever.
Emily: I feel like I just went through my own post-nonmonogamy back into monogamy stage, which is very interesting. I was choosing to be monogamous with a partner for a while, but then in the back of my head all of the, I think, non-monogamous teachings and everything that I've learned continually over the last 10 years of doing this show was always there. That is a really fascinating place to be to be able to hold both in your mind at once and know I've had these experiences on either side, and I'm definitely not going to say like, “This is not okay,” now that I may be doing something else.
Andrea: Well that and also, that can be true if you're choosing to be in a monogamous relationship or an exclusive relationship. It's also post-nonmonogamy also applies to people who might be choosing to be single. It's just an afterstate about what it is that you're seeking in that moment or choosing not to seek and why. I do think there's a qualitative difference. You don't just forget everything you learned. Whatever you're doing now, you're building on who you were before and what you did before. It's going to be different. Again, I think that's different for everybody, certainly depending on what your experience has been like and what communities you've moved in and how you got there in the first place. Whatever your big paradigm shifts were when you moved into non-monogamy are going to have some effect on shaping who you are when you come out of it if you come out of it.
Jase: It's so interesting. I feel like we've all been talking quite a bit with each other and also on some of our episodes about these life changes or just how things can evolve over time. Like Emily mentioned, she was in this monogamous relationship for seven years and is now getting back into non-monogamy. It's in the post-post-nonmonogamy
Emily: Just expressionism part of my life. Yes.
Dedeker: Very postmodern also, post-post-nonmonogamous.
Jase: Yes. Then for myself, we've talked about how since the end of 2019, I haven't really dated anyone at all besides Dedeker. Through some lenses, you could look at that as, oh, well, basically, I'm de facto monogamous now. For me, at least, it has not at all been a sense of I'm not non-monogamous. Instead, it's just I don't happen to be dating anyone else, but I still feel like I'm in that part of my life. Just have time or availability or whatever's been different. It hasn't quite been like, "Well, I don't quite have this identity anymore, or I'm intentionally moving away. It's more like circumstantially moving away. I think there's a little bit of a qualitative difference there.
Andrea: I think you're right.
Jase: Depending how you think about it, how you approach it.
Andrea: Well, and this is it. It's so self-defined. I'm not going to tell you that you're post-nonmonogamous, even if you're not actively non-monogamous. You could take that word on or not. It's not like a hard and fast. The book explores questions of how do we make identity in the first place and how important is it and how much of it is how we think versus how much we do. You know what I mean? I really don't think it's up to anyone else to impose that on anyone.
Dedeker: Oh, well, I'm sorry to keep being obsessed with your younger self, but I want to keep inviting them back into--
Andrea: Sure.
Dedeker: Well, because you talk about it. There's quite a lot in the book, a lot of the book you share your own personal journey and the things that did bring you to this place. I think that's very present for me. Your younger self, did they identify as non-monogamy is an inherent part of me, it's very much rooted in these immutable aspects of my identity, or did your younger self identify as this is just something that I'm doing right now?
Andrea: I think my younger self would have said that it was more akin to
an orientation than it was to a hobby. I would still say that now in the sense that because it's so much about mindset, it wasn't something that I was just doing for fun for a little while. It was really an outpouring or an out-- what would you call it? It was built on a life philosophy in general of openness, of generosity, of honesty, of clear communication, of all of these things and none of that's changed. Nor is my ability to, I don't know, find more than one person interesting at the same time or something like that.
For me, it's really just about choosing not to do anything like that about it. Does that make sense? It's really what am I ready to bring into my life, what am I seeking, what am I open to? Right now, a lot of those answers are not much. You never know. It's not impossible and if circumstances shifted, then sure. When it's gone on long enough, to me it was like, okay, I'm qualitatively in a different place here and that merit's exploration. I think it would be different if you were someone who was only ever doing it, I don't know, to please a partner or as a thing that you already recognized was maybe a phase or an exploration or something like that, which I think is totally valid, but that wasn't how I approached it.
Dedeker: The most often quoted statistical figure on non-monogamy in the US and Canada is that your 4% to 5% of the population is currently practicing some form of non-monogamy. These are numbers we have as of what, like 2017, 2019, or something like that?
Jase: Something like that, yes.
Dedeker: Yes, and that up to 20% of the population has previously practiced some kind of non-monogamy at some point in their lives. From that, you extrapolate that. At any given time, there are about three times as many former non-monogamists as current non-monogamists. We're going to get to your theories about pathways to post-nonmonogamy a little bit later. To invite in maybe a more mainstream interpretation or a more "norm-y view" or the view of someone who's maybe more traditional who's never experimented with any kind of alternative relationship, they might see these statistics and jump to the conclusion, "Oh, well, if there's three times as many former non-monogamous as current ones, clearly this must not work very well. People try it and it falls apart and they get burned and they retreat back to normalcy and monogamy.” Do you think there's any credence to that take on things?
Andrea: How many people have been monogamous and broken up with someone?
Dedeker: Yes, a lot.
Andrea: I don't think that's because all of them, I think you're right. I think some people will probably look at it that way. I think it's quite silly and that's just–I don't know. If that's where you're going in your mind about this, probably you weren't thinking that it was okay in the first place.
Jase: I see. You're not going to be convinced anyway, so why just–
Andrea: Exactly. I think that there is a cultural narrative that tells us there's one way to do this stuff and the people who are most wedded to it are often the most afraid that it won't work. There's like a deep fear I think attached to that. Anything that gets that rigid, to me that it's almost always about fear, right? Some kind of fear. If you're so rigid about your belief about how relationships should work that you're trying to impose that on people who you don't even know, I mean to me that says a whole lot more about the internal state of whoever's holding that view than it does about what these statistics actually mean.
Dedeker: That's interesting that you talk about the rigidity because I do think we can also see a somewhat similar rigidity pop up in non-monogamy subcultures where I can also see another person's viewpoint seeing a book like this or seeing even the concept of post-nonmonogamy and seeing that as threatening, right? Of like, how dare you imply that maybe someone might stop being non-monogamous of their own volition? Or how dare you imply that someone may decide to just like not act on these feelings, right? Yes, I could see that through line it being tied to fear that, "Oh no, what if this doesn't work out?" That validates all my fears about my own insecurities or my own insecurities about being non-monogamous or things like that.
Andrea: Anytime you're marginalized, this public discourse comes with a defensiveness and it's not wrong exactly. I understand. I'm not immune to it, right? I'm very much like queer, fuck yeah, right? There’s definitely I don't mind being in your face because this is who I am and I feel a real pride in that and a real-- Defensiveness not so much about fear, but just because there's attack, right? I think anytime you get a community that's really vilified or a group of people that's really vilified for their practices particularly when that has something to do with sexuality or gender, then you're certainly going to get one of the maneuvers that you see is people going, "No, not only is this amazing, but also it's the best and the rest of you are awful."
It's just that level of opposition you have to come up with in order to shore up against attack. You see it happen in king communities, you see it happen among queers. Again, it's not wrong and I understand it. It's just sometimes doesn't serve us when it traps people in boxes or identities or situations that don't suit anymore. It’s tender and difficult when you're marginalized to go, like, what if you have a super strong queer identity, then you end up in a monogamous marriage that looks heterosexual and then everyone sees you as a traitor or whatever, that happens, right? If that's the thing that's going to make you happy, you should still do that. It's your life and you've only got one, but they're hard to talk about and they're hard to talk about in a way that makes space both to defend in a needful way and all to leave that softness or flexibility for people to shift over time.
Dedeker: This feels like these are the roots of everybody's fears about not being queer enough and also not being poly enough or non-monogamous enough.
Jase: Yes.
Andrea: Yes. All of the above.
Emily: Have you received any backlash at all for writing this book or for talking about this subject?
Andrea: Not yet.
Emily: Well, that's good.
Andrea: Give it time.
Jase: There's still time. Yes.
Dedeker: There’s still time, yes.
Emily: That's true. It just came out, so.
Andrea: Yes. It's not impossible. I think so far that the feedback I've gotten is mostly just the people are like, "Oh, I'm so glad this conversation is happening."
Emily: That's great.
Andrea: I didn't have a word for this or I've always felt a little weird about ending up where I am. I think it's just opening conversation, and so far that's been positive. Cross our fingers it stays that way.
Jase: If we want to switch to actually talking about this shift into post-nonmonogamy life, what are the three main pathways that you identified for how people get there?
Andrea: I tried to make them quite broad in the sense that I can see people going along any one of them or maybe more than one. I'm aware that people might want to add to that. I think I've made them broad enough that they could probably encompass a lot of people's journeys at least to a point. The three that I set out the first one in the book is lack of sex drive or low sex drive. That's not in any way to suggest that you must have a sex drive in order to be non-monogamous. There's plenty of people out there who are ace or aromantic and who have lots of interesting relationship configurations, and that's completely valid. Statistically speaking, so many people go into partnership by means of sexual attraction-
Jase: Sexual attraction, yes.
Andrea: -and then turns into having feelings and then you partner up, right? If that's not happening for you and that is the way that you normally enter relationships, you might just not enter any, whether you're alone at the time that that begins to happen or whether you're partnered with one person and the nature of that relationship shifts a little bit or you've got a little room for a sexual connection with that person but you don't have an appetite to go seek it with anyone else, whatever that looks like. That I think is one pathway, and it's in a way encompassed within the larger second pathway, which to me is all about stress and trauma. That covers a lot of ground, right?
Everything from just everyday life stress of surviving in late capitalism all the way up to like major trump accidents, illnesses, assaults. Whatever terrible thing might happen to a person that really just shifts their priorities hardcore and possibly for a long time to deal with whatever that is, do whatever healing they need to do, and sometimes when you need to center that in your life, you're prioritizing of other relationships can fall away. You can end up having a smaller life on purpose because you need to, and that might take you two weeks or it might take you years and years, or it might be permanent. That covers a lot of ground, and that loss of or lack of sex drive is often, not always, but often because of one of those things. They do talk to each other a bit and then the third one that I posit is contentment and solitude.
Jase: What do you attribute that change to? Because this is something I've thought about a lot over the last few years as well. All of us went through some more solitude than we were used to. I think some people found there was stuff they really liked about that and want to keep and others didn't. I'm just curious when you look at a bigger picture looking at different people's journeys, where do you think that contentment in solitude comes from? Is it like a maturing thing? Is it self-development? Where do you see that coming from?
Andrea: In the book, I talk about eight different axes that you can engage with solitude from. Some of it's innate, right? How much of an introvert are you? How much do you enjoy being alone, et cetera, et cetera? Some of it's going to be circumstance, some of it's going to be what you discover about yourself over time. For some people, solitude is terrifying and sometimes it's really hard to get to a point where it isn't. If you do that work, I think that most people in the world can begin to find a richness there. I think for some people, pandemic lockdowns were that opportunity where they were like, "Okay, I'm stuck alone in my room. What am I going to do? Oh my God, it's been months. What am I going to do?
How do you manage that?
For some people, I think they were just like, "Cool, this is my everyday life, no big." For other people, it was a drastic change. I think for a lot of people, it was just when you're forced to face it for a good period of time, you figure it out and maybe it doesn't get so scary anymore.
Dedeker: Yes, what I appreciate about the different axes that you laid out is that ,I think that when we talk about contentment in solitude, it tends to get very flattened into either this very binary of, do you enjoy being alone or do you not? Are you an introvert or are you an extrovert? Are you a healthy person who loves yourself and can love yourself when you're by yourself? Or are you an unhealthy person who's completely dependent on being around a partner?
Andrea: Yes.
Dedeker: It can be so black and white, and the fact that you bring up things like your general mental health status is going to affect how well you do with solitude or not, how intensely social your work life is or not is going to affect that, right? Whether you're currently single or you're partnered and still want solitude. There are a lot of different factors that go into it. I appreciate it did add this depth and richness into thinking about solitude.
Andrea: It was probably the topic that I enjoyed researching the most when I was reading for this book, so much so that I ended up continuing. I now have a huge collection of books about-- because it's like you can come at it from so many different angles. Are we talking about being alone, just the fact of being alone? Are we talking about being single? Are we talking about living alone? Are we talking about introversion? Are we talking about loneliness?
Even the concept of silence. I read a bunch about silence because, obviously, that's hard to achieve when there's lots of people around. It's almost like this really amorphous, porous concept that I'm not even sure what to call in the middle, like what's the thing in the middle of all that? There is a thing, and the reading that I did really opened up a lot of thinking for me, like, what about celibacy? There's just so many, then what's your reason for getting there and how did-- it really does, you're seeing me get all sparkly in the brain here. I really find it fascinating because it's a tough topic to nail down, which makes it really interesting.
Emily: I think about my mother who had a series of non-consensually, non-monogamous relationships, one of which I came out of. Eventually, she just decided, I'm not going to do relationships anymore. I don't think I'm particularly good at them. I don't want somebody coming into my life and screwing it up. I'd rather just be alone.
She's been single by choice for the majority of my life, and she really, really thrives on that model. She has her friends. She has people that she goes out to lunch with and family members that she calls, and then me who we talk all the time, but she really feels that she's much happier in this place of solitude. She lives alone, paints every day, things like that.
She's very much my model of exactly what you're describing, that solitude can be a very beautiful thing. That singleness can be something that is done by choice, because that's what you truly want for your life and not something else, what society tells us, we're not going to be happy unless we're partnered. Yes, I love all of this and just this exploration that you're talking about and that there are so many different ways to reach that specific point
Andrea: Amazing for you that you have a model of that. A lot of people don't. That's pretty cool.
Emily: I have a big old model, not for sure in my life.
Jase: Most of us don't. Yes.
Emily: It is interesting because I think it has shaped my way of looking at relationships in general, that it doesn't need to be something that makes me intrinsically happier that I have to find that happiness from within ideally, and that relationships can just enhance my life and it's not a thing that's going to define my life necessarily.
Dedeker: I also want to clarify to any listeners that, again, it's not like we're setting up another binary of either you're actively non-monogamous or you're just sad and alone and you need to learn how to deal with that. In the book, you lay out about how there are certain ways that we can cultivate a positive relationship with solitude even if you're partnered. It doesn't necessarily mean, oh, you don't have anyone around, you never have sex, you don't have any hobbies, you just stay in a dark room all the time. Yes, I just wanted to make sure that that's rather.
Andrea: Yes, all of that. That's important to note, but also I think this is probably as close to prescriptive as I'm going to get. I really think that almost everybody should figure out how to be alone and how to embrace solitude, because there are willy times where you don't have the choice, where it comes at you and you didn't see it coming. It's nice to build a skillset, but it also just enriches your life. I think it changes how you make decisions.
If you omit the factor of I'm scared to be alone from the way that you choose what you then do, whether it's partnering or picking up hobbies or whatever else you're doing, I think that it changes the kinds of things that you bring into your life. It's not just to fill an empty space like you fill that space. It just changes the angle of decision-making.
Jase: Yes. I was very much the person who was terrified of being alone for I'd say the first half of my life, maybe a little more than that. The one time that I lived alone was a really horrible semester at school, I was really depressed a lot of that. Just not having a good time. My takeaway was I can never live alone and never going to do that. I'm always going to have roommates, something.
Then without even really intentionally changing it, but just through my own various, I guess, personal growth things or whatever, eventually got to this point where I really enjoyed it and would seek out that solitude, but it was many years between those two different states. It definitely took a while to get there.
Dedeker: No, I think it's so funny, because as we're having this conversation and remembering very early on in our relationship, maybe a year or two in us having a lot of conflict around that topic around you not wanting to be alone and me being fiercely independent and loving being alone for the most part and you really campaigning hard for like, no, it's okay, it's okay for me to not want to be alone, which is true and was true at the time. Then now fast forward to 10 years later when you're like, "Yes, please, please go."
Emily: Get out of here.
Andrea: I have some aloning to do.
Dedeker: Yes, like please.
Andrea: That's good, that's good.
Dedeker: I want to shift focus talking about the stress and trauma portion of it. Like as you said that this is quite broad, I want to specifically talk about sometimes if somebody's gone through repeated heartbreak or intensive heartbreak, and I think as we all know, when you're non-monogamous, sometimes heartbreak is magnified either by quantity and frequency. Maybe you're dating more people, you're putting yourself in relationships more often, you're taking more emotional risks more often and that brings with it the more potential for heartbreak.
Either it's intensified by frequency or sometimes can be intensified by magnitude as anyone who's gone through some horrible poly-hell can attest that multiple relationships can be falling apart at once and it can be really intense, but going through a situation like that or repeated situations like that can create a need for rest and recovery that may take someone away from non-monogamy that maybe this pathway into post-nonmonogamy. I guess I was curious about how do you think that we can distinguish, or do you think it's possible to distinguish between needing a healthy recovery period versus retreating into some unhealthy isolation or closed heartedness, or feeling like, "Ah, I'm just never going to open myself up again to anybody"?
Andrea: Well, I'll let you know when I figure it out.
I don't know if there is a clear answer to that, because I think sometimes one can look like the other. Does that make sense? For a period of time, or maybe you have to go through one to get to the other. I think there's sometimes a mix. Particularly if you've cultivated your ability to be joyful or happy in solitude, and you also had a bad relationship experience, and you could be like, "Well, screw that. I'm actually doing really well over here. I'm actually doing really well over here and there"
I don't know if there's an outside standard that we could find to apply to that. I think so much of it is just about looking inward and being like, 'What's the outcome here? How am I actually feeling what's going on in my life? Is this bringing me joy or is it a decision I'm making from fear and I'm actually sitting here crying all the time?" It's really qualitative, I would say, yes.
Dedeker: Yes, those clarifying questions help. I'm realizing, I think something that's creeping into my line of questioning is maybe some of this mainstream assumption that, oh, if someone has waited too long before dating again, that means there must be something wrong and there must be something unhealthy here. I realize probably that anti-single bias is even creeping in to thinking about that.
Andrea: Well, I can't say what's going on with you, but certainly I could imagine people going there quite quickly. Whether sort of like, "Okay you've had your morning period, let's move it to--” because they want to impose as agenda on how long it's okay to stay single for whatever, which I think, again, comes from fear, but also that it ties into anti-single bias. Also some of that also just comes from I'm trying to think of, I don't know if there's like a word for it, but you know that feeling when you care about somebody and you know they have a lot to offer, they're a good friend, or someone in your family and they're single and you're like, "I don't really get why, because
they would be so great in partnership, and I'd love to see their lives be enriched by that.”
I think some of it is projection, but I think some of it is also just like, I want the people I care about to be loved. I think it can be a genuine kind thing to want that for the people around us. I think we just have to be careful to walk the line of not being like, "You better hurry up, or you're going to dry up and die."
Emily: Not projecting her own baggage onto the situation.
Andrea: Exactly. Like when you know someone's a total catch, and you're just like, "The right person just needs to find you."
Jase: Right.
Dedeker: Sometimes I project onto I love my friends so much that I'm like, I want to share them with somebody. I want to be like, oh, my God. I feel like I have this treasure of a human being that no one's found yet somehow.
Andrea: It's very polyamorous of you.
This is what I mean about mindset, because I totally hear exactly that. Yes, absolutely, I want the people I love to be loved by all the other people because they're so great.
Jase: It is, but it does bring about that bias we have toward romantic relationships being meaningful and everything else being less so, because it is that thing of it is harder to look at those friends or those people we're like, "They're amazing. Someone should really appreciate them," and to see our friendship with them and their other friends as being that people that love them and recognize them, because that's also just so ingrained, that idea that we like to really be seen or to really be appreciated. It's got to be like this.
Andrea: Yes. Fair. You're right. I think you're quite right. We do have to watch for that creating a mental hierarchy of what counts and what doesn't. There's some super interesting reading out there these days about exactly that topic. You must have heard of The Other Significant Others.
Emily: We had a show.
Dedeker: We had Rhaina Cohen on.
Andrea: Oh.
Emily: It's life-changing. I love that book so much. It's such a great book and great interview.
Andrea: Well, and particularly because not everyone in it is super alternative, right? It's just people figuring out how to have a different life than they were told without necessarily being like, and, no, I'm going to join these communities. Anyway, I think that that's-- it's real, it's valid. It's worth deconstructing. It's worth poking at that, like, why do we think it has to be sexual or romantic?
At the same time, I also think it's worth acknowledging that the nature of a sexual and romantic relationship and/or romantic relationship, it's a different beast. It is. The kinds of feelings that you can experience there and the kinds of physical pleasure that you can experience there and so on and so forth. Not that everybody wants those things, but if you are someone who's built in such a way that you do, your pals aren't doing that for you.
It's not that it's better necessarily, but it is unique and particular. It's okay to want that particular happiness or joy for-- I'm trying to think of another analogy that would do it. It's hard. I don't know the difference between recording in a studio or being on stage. There must be a different vibe there for a musician, let's say.
Jase: For sure. Yes.
Andrea: If your friend always plays in your living room and you're like, "Oh, my God, I want an auditorium to hear this." Is it better? No, but it's sure is powerful.
Jase: For sure. Yes.
Andrea: Maybe that's a bad analogy. I don't know.
Jase: No, I think it works. It's just that I want them to have this bigger experience. I think wanting our friends to be successful or your friend that you think is hilarious, you're like, "I wish everyone could experience how hilarious this person is."
Andrea: You should do standup.
Jase: Right. Yes. Whatever it is, wishing that horrible life on someone-
Andrea: Oh, God, no.
Jase: -is maybe not as nice as we think, but--
Andrea: Shows what I
Emily: The standup life.
Jase: Yes. It's not a life I would wish on anyone.
Emily: Can we talk about some of the ways that non-monogamous experiences shape the worldview that we have in general, even in post-nonmonogamy, because I think for myself, over the last seven to nine years that I was in my relationship, that was constantly butting up against my partner really wanting to be monogamous and really wanting me to embrace all the ideals of monogamy when I couldn't quite. Even though I tried hard, it just wasn't going to happen because I still had this knowledge of non-monogamy in my head and in my heart and in my experiences and I couldn't just like say no to that. Can you talk about for yourself what this looks like now and how non-monogamy is still shaping and changing your life?
Andrea: It's interesting because that makes me want to ask you that question. It makes me want to ask each of you that question because it is so-- I think we would each have our own examples of if I were single at this moment or if I were monogamously or exclusively partnered at this moment, how would that be different? I think what you bring into non-monogamy or what you learn in non-monogamy is going to shape very much what it is that you are on the other side of it. Whether that's a particular flavor of sex positivity or whether that's a communal mindset around, I don't know how you do meals or plan a vacation or whatever, there's just like so many aspects of what your non-monogamy taught you that you would then potentially bring into whatever you might be doing that's not that anymore.
well, one probably prime example is that I have two people in my life that I call my best exes. We were in triad together for many, many years, and they live down the street from me, and they're not partnered anymore either, but they're now roommates and I live up the street and we have a weekly, we go to the farmer's market together, and then we make dinner. I'm having surgery in the fall, and who's going to take me in? Of course, it's going to be one of them. Who's going to make me food? We function as this completely not romantic, but anchored in polyamory triad, but it's platonic.
I don't think that kind of relationship is possible among three people in quite that way without this sort of minds. Friends recognize that we're still really close with each other. We know each other's families, you know what I mean? If someone's going to throw me a surprise party, my brothers are going to call my best exes. That's the baseline unit. There's that, but also I really want them to date people, and I'm excited when they have hot dates or there's a sense of, "Bring the new person. We all got to vet the new person."
Jase: Right, right.
Andrea: Right? That's one of the big things that it looks like in my life. I finished writing this book while I was on a vacation with them. Right?
Jase: Nice.
Andrea: Also if I were to partner with somebody new, that person's going to have to be cool with those people in my life. That's not negotiable. It takes a certain pseudo-polyamorous mindset to even consider partnering with me, even if I'm not dating anyone else.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: That's what I say about these two, so yes, I get completely, like you got to be okay with the fact that these two are my best exes also.
Andrea: There we go.
Emily: I love that by the way. I'm stealing that.
Andrea: Oh, please steal it. Just spread it around. We operate with generosity around here.
Emily: I know. Love it.
Dedeker: I like this section in the book where you're talking about it. I wrote in the subtitle that this is like the list of transferable skills from your former non-monogamy courier that you can then apply-
Andrea: Yes. Totally.
Dedeker: -to future relationships. I just wanted to share some of the examples that you gave. Things like maybe your experience of non-monogamy left you much more sex positive. That means when a friend comes to you for advice around relationships or sex, you may handle them differently or give them different advice than you would before. Or if you're trying to work out things with your roommates or at work, maybe you're a little bit more conscious of how do we come up with win-win solutions for everyone involved here instead of zero-sum solutions, or the more practical ones you mentioned like having your exes live down the street, or a former partner who still drops by for tea, or you exchange gifts or things like that.
It is really interesting once you got into the nitty-gritty of just like, wow, there's potentially a lot of little paradigm shifts and little skills that do stick with you and potentially permanently change the way that you approach relationships, even if you're never non-monogamous again, never have another partner again or if you're choosing monogamy or exclusivity in some shape.
Andrea: I think that that starts while you're non-monogamous for a lot of people anyhow. You start to notice, oh, that conversation format that we tried with the group of us, God, that would really work super well with my work team or whatever. You start to see that the bleed, and it's similar. We haven't talked a lot about kink here, but I think a lot of kinky people have the same experience where they have this exposure to consciously choosing power and responsibility and surrender or experiencing pain for whatever because they choose to and it's in a controlled container. Then suddenly they start to realize that all those things apply elsewhere too, where you can start to call your boss at work as being a bad top or you're going to go to the doctor and you're going to use your masochism breathing skills or whatever.
There's these places where these things that we learn in these intimate contexts translate all over the place. Of course, they're not the same. When you learn them in this way, suddenly you've got a language or frameworks in your head that you start to realize, well, it's not really just about-- there are some skills that aren't transferable at all, but these ones are about humans, so they're obviously going to translate to other humans a lot of the time, at least in the vague sense, right?
Jase: Yes. Absolutely.
All of that you were saying about those different ways of thinking about things ties into with our book that just came out last year. This whole idea of these communication tools that we've developed with relationships and non-monogamy in mind, but that apply to so many other types of relationships. That's the whole point we're trying to make in that book and put that out there. I was just thinking about this hypothetical that you put out there of, if you imagined yourself in a situation like if I were single and what would be different, what skills would I bring with me?
I think that the one that came to mind for me was just communicating a lot more explicitly and not assuming that everyone else has the same assumptions about things or that if they don't get them, there's nothing I can do. I'm thinking about a conversation I had with my mom at one point about Dedeker's role in my life after my brother getting married and my mom getting remarried and being like, "Hey, so I've actually been in this relationship longer than either of your relationships." I didn't put it that way.
Dedeker: Not that it's a contest or anything.
Jase: Not that it's a contest. If it were, I'd be winning, but it's not a contest.
Andrea: Nice. Nicely done.
Jase: To put that and just say like, "Hey, what would I need to do so that you took this relationship seriously too?" My mom's answer was, "You just had to tell me, I didn't know. You just needed to tell me that.” “Okay, great. I'll think of it differently now." That did very much change that, and just realizing that if I were single and it were something like, "Hey, I want to be able to bring my best friend as my plus one to something," explicitly stating that instead of hoping someone assumes or offers that, or just that asking more clearly. Giving people the opportunity to give you what you want, as well as asking more explicitly what they want, that was a big game changer for me in non-monogamy. I'm like, yes, that applies everywhere else. I use that at work all the time. I'm like, "Let's get clear on what it is you're actually looking for, what I'm looking for here."
Andrea: Yet, fits in so many different categories for sure. You're the only one who hasn't told us, Dedeker, what's your lesson? I'm flipping. Sorry. I'm interviewing you now.
Jase: transferable skills.
Dedeker: What are my transferable skills? Let me sit and think. If I were just like suddenly single. Gosh, is it stealing Jase's answer? It's not just about clearly communicating or explicitly communicating, but I think for me, it's definitely something about getting to the heart of what are we both seeking here in this type of relationship that we're coming together to form? If I'm going to form any type of relationship with a new person. Also, I think what I've been chewing on in more recent years is really opening up to the fluidity that's in any relationship, particularly between friends, lovers, exes.
I suppose this idea of we can make this be whatever we want as long as we're both feeling good about it. It's okay if it doesn't look a particular way or what somebody else would say that it's supposed to look like. I think it's that. It's maybe a little bit of the relationship anarchist stuff would come along with me. That and probably the time management skills, the calendaring skills.
Andrea: Getting very concrete here, but totally.
Dedeker: Yes.
Andrea: Yes, for sure. It's funny you should mention, because now I'm thinking about work, but I'm also thinking about other things. It's funny. I'll say it and you can tell me if it connects with non-monogamy, but in my world, in my brain, it kind of does. I went to the farmer's market. I bought some vegetables. I came home and half the vegetables were bad. I was like, "Oh, no." The next time I went to the farmer's market, I went to the same stall and I looked around and I made sure that there were no other customers around.
I mentioned it to the person. I was like, "Listen, this is awkward and I'm going to do it anyway, not because I'm trying to get compensation from you, but because I don't know if your other customers would tell you, and I don't want you to lose sales because nobody's telling you that your vegetables were bad. They're just not going to come back to you. I'm just going to take that chance and hope that this lands okay with you, that now you know if there's a storage thing you need to figure out or whatever it is that you need to do, there you go." It's like that facility of having like, let's go. We've got to put shit on the table. We have to have awkward conversations.
Jase: A comfort with uncomfortable conversations.
Andrea: Comfort with uncomfortable conversations. I'm not trying to win here. I'm not trying to get something out of you, but it's a farmer's market. There's a certain community ethos going on here already. I might not bother doing that with the local supermarket, but here. It was just an interesting-- She was like, "Thank you for letting me know." She was very quiet. She looked around. She was like, "Thank you for letting me know." I could tell that she meant with nobody around. Then she was like, "Take this bag of lettuce." I was like, "That's all I need. I'm not looking for something. Thank you. We're good." The relationship building ethos, does that make sense? Take the opportunity to build trust.
I'm not trying to make myself look like a good guy here, but it was just this moment where I was like, if I hadn't had to address some really tough things, I don't know. That instinct to want to be honest and also want to help someone save face and not shame or I don't know. There's just like so much going on there. I'm like, this is not about sex or relationships at all. It's about lettuce or whatever, but sure.
Jase: It feels similar.
Andrea: There was something. There was something in there. Anyway.
Dedeker: How did you know that it was time to write a book like this? Because this is a very niche topic. Non-monogamy is already arguably from certain viewpoints a niche topic. Then this also is even like a niche within a niche. I guess really what I'm trying to ask is why did you feel that it was important to write a book like this?
Andrea: I have two answers for you. The first is to say, I'm not sure it's a niche in a niche. I think because of those numbers, it actually might be bigger than--
Dedeker: That's fair.
Andrea: Right? Maybe this is just me wanting to sell a lot of books. I don't know, but--
Jase: Sure.
Andrea: Numbers-wise, at least it looks like it's less of an-- I didn't go in realizing that. That was something I learned as I was researching. I was like, "Oh, wow. That's dramatic, that difference between how many." Anyway. There's that. To be honest with you, I was blogging and writing quite frequently up until I was dealing with a lot of health problems in the 2012, '13-ish range. I think the world started to fall apart in a lot of ways that maybe just became more visible to me or I became more aware of.
Things measurably got worse in terms of climate change and housing crisis and just all these things that they made me feel like I didn't have much to offer as a writer. I was like, "What the hell?" First of all, I'm not really having a lot of sex or relationships. That's what I used to write about. Also, I don't know if this is really what the world needs to hear. I don't know if my voice has much to add to the conversation right now. I became very quiet for quite a long time around my writing and my teaching. I used to tour and teach in all kinds of places and that just really fell off for me. I created a much smaller life for myself and did a lot of reading and learning and listening.
I'm not, to be honest with you, sure. I have been writing. I have other writing projects that have not yet seen the light of day. Among other things, a memoir about chronic pain, which is a whole other thing. It was really because people started badgering me. I've worked for a long time doing editing work and substantive editing work for Thornapple Press. I worked with a lot of the authors that are published through that.
As an editor, it's been such an honor and joy to get to work with all these brilliant people and all their neat ideas. People like the press, people from the press, even other people at the press started being like, "When are you going to write a book for More Than Two and Essential series?" I was just like, "I got nothing to say, leave me alone." By the time it was three or four different people, I was like, "I don't know. I haven’t done this. I'm not doing it. I'm sort of past it all. What do I have to offer?" Then I was like, "Well, maybe that's exactly what I have to offer."
Jase: Maybe that's it. Yes.
Andrea: Maybe that's it right there. It was honestly because other people poked me off.
Emily: Maybe that's what it takes.
Andrea: Then it did happen.
Jase: It happens to push you a little bit like that, yes.
Andrea: It happened all in one shot. In my brain, I was just like, "Wait a minute, that's what it's going to be. I literally sat down and 12 hours wrote a first draft.” I was just like, "There it is." Then I pitched it. Then the research and the reading to flesh that out took quite a lot longer than that. The frame of it and the--
Jase: The initial concept.
Andrea: It was Valentine’s Day.
Emily: Wow.
Andrea: I know, weird.
Jase:
Andrea: Which is why I thank people in this book and in More Than Two for encouraging me, because I don't think it would have happened if I wasn't getting poked by people who were like, "No, no, come on. You got to write a thing.” I think there's also just a sense, I really don't like the term post-pandemic because it is not over, but post the initial scary phase of the pandemic where lots of society was doing a whole lot of different things we weren't used to. I think that that led to then a resurgence of certain kinds of things afterwards. The world opened up again is the kind of phrase that you often hear.
I think in that context, people have had appetite or have begun to have appetite for things. They might have turned towards knitting and sourdough for a little while and then they've turned back towards, "No, no, no, let's gather, let's talk about these topic." I think that the interest level in these topics has also shifted a bit just in the more recent couple of years.
Jase: Definitely.
Dedeker: Yes, for sure.
Yes, well, I know. As soon as I read the concept of your book, I was so excited to read it and to tell other people about it because-- yes, I agree it's like there's this gap in the conversation. You said people said to you that it's like I didn't even have a word for this particular chapter of my life, and I love that now there's a word and there's a spotlight on it, so I highly recommend that people check out the book. Where can our listeners find more of you, Andrea, and your work?
Andrea: Well, my home on the internet is-- I call it shitter these days, so you could find me there if you went to @sexgeekaz. The books you can get through Thornapple Press, so morethantwo.ca and thornapplepress.ca, but you can also order them wherever you order books. Please support your local independent bookshop. I always encourage people to shop small, and I love that people are buying physical books a lot these days and that's really great, but it's also available as an eBook and I narrated my own audiobook.
Dedeker: Wow.
Andrea: If you like the sound of my voice, you can get that too. I'm on BlueSky if you want to find me there, Andrea Zanin on BlueSky.
Dedeker: Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us.
Andrea: Thank you for having me.