503 - Normalizing Non-Monogamy: Bru + Mark
Featuring Normalizing Non-Monogamy, ep. 308
For this week's episode, the Multiamory crew is taking a much-needed break, and featuring episode 308 of Normalizing Non-Monogamy: Bru + Mark! Hosts Emma and Fin talk with Bru and Mark about their guests' relatively recent journey of opening up their long partnership.
For Emma and Fin, life is all about seeking out adventure, embracing the chaos, and meeting amazing people along the way. They are in their mid thirties, met in seventh grade, and have been together since their freshman year of college. A year or so into their relationship it was obvious that exploring everything life had to offer was part of who they were as individuals, and as a team. They were very young at the time and neither had really experienced the world of dating, so they created a way to explore aspects of the dating world without ending their relationship, through non-monogamy. Fast forward about 11 years and they decided to start a weekly podcast called Normalizing Non-Monogamy in 2018. They absolutely love meeting new people and hearing their stories and through this podcast they get to interview people from all over the world who are exploring non-monogamy on their own terms. The hope is that if they can get enough of those stories out into the world that it will provide a resource for anyone who is considering non-monogamy. They also want to show that non-monogamy is more common than most people think and that it can be done in an ethical and consensual way. Overall, the mission is to inspire people to embrace their true selves so that, together, we can open minds and live authentically without shame.
Find more about them and Normalizing Non-Monogamy at https://www.normalizingnonmonogamy.com/!
Transcript
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Dedeker: Hello, Multiamory listeners. Ooh, it's a ghostly time of year, and for Halloween, we're dressing up as the Normalizing Non-Monogamy Podcast. Emily, if you can insert a thunderclap noise for dramatic effect.
Dedeker: Thank you, Emily. That's right. This week, the rest of the crew and myself are taking a much-needed break, and so instead, we're very happy to offer you an episode of Normalizing Non-Monogamy, which is hosted by the precious, the lovely, the amazing Emma and Finn. On Normalizing Non-Monogamy, Emma and Finn spend each week interviewing people from all walks of life about their experiences in polyamory, swinging, and non-monogamy.
Their show truly has so much heart and so much curiosity, and I particularly love recommending their podcast to people who are new to non-monogamy. Pretty much none of us have mentors or role models when we're first starting out, and Normalizing Non-Monogamy offers this really wonderful, diverse volume of stories and experiences to turn to.
I really think it's important to expose yourself to a lot of different people's experiences and to not get stuck or hung up on what one person says is the right way to open your relationship. I think that Normalizing Non-Monogamy is a great way to get that exposure. They also have a private community, and they regularly hold workshops and live events in the San Francisco Bay Area. If that sounds exciting to you, definitely check out their private community, as well.
In the episode that I picked out to share with all of you, they're interviewing Bru and Mark. Bru and Mark are a couple in their mid-30s who were high school sweethearts, and they were raised in the Christian church. At the time of this interview, they are two years into a slow and intentional opening up of their relationship. They both share so beautifully and vulnerably about their experiences growing up Evangelical, about leaving the church, healing from complex PTSD, and finding and rebuilding a loving and supportive community around themselves. I really enjoyed listening to this episode, and I hope that you will, too.
Bru: That was like a year and a half ago that we first had those experiences. It was all in my mind about Mark's pleasure, doing the thing that's going to satisfy him, turn him on, get him excited because that feels good to me, right? We realized that that wasn't good enough. That my motivation to please him would not make this work, that that motivation needed to come from me to want this, as well.
That was a hard thing to come to terms with because I had to now dig in into myself and discover what I wanted to be able to truly be honest about whether I wanted to go into this journey with him or not, right? Initially, it was more like, "Okay, I'll do this for him," and then he was like, "Yes, that's not good enough. You need to know that you want this for you."
Emma: Welcome to Normalizing Non-Monogamy, the podcast where we interview incredible people from across the entire spectrum of non-monogamy to hear their fascinating stories. We strive to bring guests on the show who have a healthy approach to non-monogamy. However, it's essential to remember that everyone does it a little bit differently, and the views and opinions expressed by our guests do not necessarily reflect our own.
Finn: Additionally, we produce this show for entertainment purposes only. Please, be aware that we aren't doctors or therapists. Consult the medical professional for anything regarding your health that you might learn about on the show. Enjoy.
Emma: Welcome to Episode 308. We're Finn and Emma, and today, we have a beautiful conversation with Bru and Mark. They have been together over 18 years, married over 18 years, actually, but they're very new to non-monogamy, only the last few years, and have gone very slow. We just have a beautiful conversation around their experiences and undoing a lot of narratives that they're experiencing as they go through this process, and it's a powerful conversation.
Finn: Yes, I think my two cents on this is, as you listen, right, when we start these episodes, there's always a snippet of conversation that we grab from something that the guests say. It was damn near impossible to find one for this conversation because I had about 70 to choose from.
Emma: You could pick 'em all.
Finn: Literally, every single thing they said was, basically, I could have cut it and put it upfront. I had to pick one, and I picked one. I feel good about it, but just know that this conversation is full of incredible conversation.
Emma: Yes.
Finn: Yes. There's a few other things we need to tell you about that are important about this conversation. Number one is there is a trigger warning here. It happens about 50 minutes into the interview itself. Before that, there is a brief conversation where Mark asks Bru, "Hey, can I mention something around complex PTSD?" They touch on it, but they don't actually talk about anything that I would deem triggering at that point. Again, around 50 minutes, Bru shares a little bit about what her experience was, and so we wanted you to be aware that there is a short conversation about healing the childhood trauma that she experienced. We need you to be aware of that going forward.
Emma: Yes. We also wanted to clarify that we call her Brunella in the episode. We have consent to do that. That was discussed ahead of time. Just want to make that clear, too.
Finn: Well, actually, what happens is I screwed it up, and she was like, "No, no, it's totally fine." Then I edited it out, and then, as I was editing it later, Mark calls her Brunella like two or three more times, and I was like, "Okay, well, I can't take care of all of these. Some of them are tough." We got her permission to use her name. Just wanted you all to be aware.
Emma: With that--
Finn: Let's go talk to Mark and Bru.
Emma: Let's go.
Finn: Welcome, good morning. Welcome to the podcast, Mark and Bru. We are excited to have you here today. Before we get started, do you mind just introducing yourselves however you're comfortable, and we'll take it from there?
Bru: Sure, sure.
Mark: Yes, we could do that.
Bru: Thanks for having us.
Finn: Of course.
Mark: I'm Mark, 37 years old, born and raised in the Northeast of the US. We still live here, and this is my lovely wife, Bru.
Bru: Am I going now? Yes, Bru, same age, 37. I've lived in the US for about 22 years now. I'm originally from Uruguay, South America. We've been married for almost 18 years. In about 3 weeks, it will be 18 years. We're high school sweethearts. We have three children. We're in this adventure of non-monogamy very recently. Lots to learn and grow, and so we're excited to share with you, guys.
Finn: Wonderful. Well, we are excited. We don't often get to talk to people who are brand new, and so we're excited about that. Off-camera, we talked about there being some nerves, and we have a special way to get over nerves, and that is asking one of the hardest questions we ever ask on the show, which is, "When you make a grilled cheese sandwich, how do you cut your grilled cheese sandwich?"
Bru: I like diagonal. All my sandwiches have to go diagonal.
Mark: Why cut it?
Emma: Why cut it?
Finn: Mark said, "No cutter."
Mark: The whole thing. I don't like assumptive questions.
Finn: Well, Bru got the correct answer. It is diagonal, so you passed. The answer is, for optimal dunking into tomato soup.
Bru: Yes, yes. See?
Emma: However, there's also--
Finn: There is no right--
Emma: There's no right way.
Finn: I'm going to call bananas on that.
Emma: Everyone can do it their own way.
Finn: I suppose if people want to do it the wrong way.
Mark: It's really off-brand for you, Finn.
Finn: To dictate there is one right way to do something. Well, I'm serious about my grilled cheese. With that in mind, we'd love to hear about this adventure you're about to go on. Where are the two of you in the process of exploring and discovering non-monogamy?
Bru: I guess I'll be the talker twin. He's going to get to talk. No worry. He has no issues with that. We are very new, which is exciting. Likewise, we've been listening to your podcast forever. As soon as we found it, we fell in love with it, and we've listened to all the different stories. We love the diversity. One of the things we noticed is that a lot of people had a lot of experience, and we're like, "We love to go on because the newbies," right?
Very early in the stage. I think it helped us a lot to learn about the different things and to hear from people who were in similar positions. We want to share that as well with other people that may benefit from it. Where we are right now, we're about two years into exploring, and that exploration has been very slow. It's been a lot of initially researching, reading, talking,
lots of difficult conversations, crying, fighting, and then getting comfortable with the idea of dipping our toes in. Then that started with a little bit of hotwifing dynamic, which is what initially interested Mark more, the idea of me going out and that pleasure aspect of what turned him on. Then, as we progressed through that, had just a few experiences, then paused and talked more. Then realized we want to do things a different way. Now, where we are now is where we don't have titles. Our relationship doesn't have a hard definition. I think we're swinger-
Mark: -ish
Bru: -ish, and we're looking to just connect with like-minded people, mainly couples, to just be friends at first and then see where that takes us. There's no hard goal that things have to be sexual with anybody, but obviously, we want that, otherwise, we wouldn't be doing this. We just want to be able to make connections with people that we can be our true selves with and not have to hide that aspect of our lives. Nothing is very clear right now as to what we are and aren't. That's why we're very super how we do it.
Mark: I think we both realize that labels help. They help cut through some of the monogamous versus non-monogamous, helps you understand. I think we're monogamy-ish, swinger-ish. We're our building from scratch in terms of our friends and our community are our surrounding because we both come from-- we were evangelical Christian for pretty much since we got married. We were a couple who-- we waited to have sex before marriage.
I think I wasn't Christian when I first met her, she was. She would take me to church. Actually, at the time, when we met, many moons ago, I was a practicing Muslim. I was always looking for-- the people on the podcast could see "the truth." I would go to church with her, and I would bring my Quran and try to compare it. Anyway, I converted maybe two months-
Bru: Before we got married.
Mark: -before we got married.
Emma: Just for the context, this is all in your teenage years, early 20s, correct?
Mark: Yes. We got married when we were 19.
Emma: All in your teenage years.
Mark: Yes. Very, very young. Very, very young. I converted. Honestly, I didn't do it because-- she didn't give me an ultimatum or anything. Nobody really said, "Hey, if you don't convert, you can't do this." I did it 'cause I wanted to. It was genuine. From that point until-- for me, my process to deconstruct or move away from that faith started probably about 2017, 2018. For her, I think it happened maybe a couple years after that, maybe one or two years after that. Part of my deconstruction was looking at sex and relationships through a different light. Whereas, before, it was filled with shame and-- what's the other word? The G word?
Bru: Guilt.
Mark: Guilt. That's it. I felt really shitty for the things that turned me on for a long time. I started to be able to just look at that without the guilt and the shame. That led to us having a few conversations initially about, I guess, it would be more kink-related. It involved non-monogamy, but I didn't go into it saying," Hey, I'm non-monogamous, or I want to practice non-monogamy." I was like, "Hey, this idea really turns me on. What do you think about it?"
Bru: Me say, "What?"
Finn: I love that you said that, Bru, because that was going to be my question is, coming out of the construct that you two were in, and also having known each other all of your formative years, how do you have that conversation? Because that implies you've been hiding stuff. Also, it's probably completely against everything that you two are learning in church, unless what you mean by evangelical Christian is very different than what we've been hearing about in the past.
Mark: No. The churches that we went to, oddly enough, a lot of the stereotype stuff, it was more background than foreground. They weren't being ultra non-inclusive.
Finn: Sure.
Mark: It was more about loving people. Again, I don't look back on that-- I have a lot of nuanced views about my time as a Christian. I look back and see like, "Well, you know what? I was really, really insecure, and I was a teenager." What teenager isn't? I was a teenager, and I was incredibly insecure. I really didn't like myself. The idea of getting this unconditional love, that somebody would accept me as I'm, really, really spoke to me. It helped me. It helped me in that aspect to like myself and learn to love myself. It helped me there.
Unfortunately, as I've gotten older and learned about, it just comes with other things, the baggage that it comes with, the cost of admission. Again, I do a lot of air quotes. I'm sorry, podcasters. The cost of admission is not something that now I look back and say I'm comfortable with.
Finn: Sure.
Mark: Because I felt I had to be exclusionary once. Both of us, we were not just members. We were youth pastors. We were on leadership boards.
Emma: You were in it.
Mark: We were in it.
Finn: This isn't to shit on Christianity or religion, but it was-- Well, I guess, where I was going was, seemingly, the things you were interested in would not align with the values of the church you were a part of.
Mark: Not at all.
Bru: Then the hardest thing, for me-- a lot of it is hard, was hard, and it's still hard. There's different challenges today than there was two years ago. The hard thing was listening to Mark opening up about his kink and the things that turn him on and his different views, just on relationships as a whole, and taking it because of my own trauma and my own personal issues as like, "I'm failing. There's something wrong. Why would he want this? There must be a problem. Is he not satisfied? I'm not enough. There's something wrong with our relationship because why would you?"
That came from the idea that has been instilled in me through Christianity and also through my culture. As a Hispanic woman, I grew up with hearing, a lot of time, "You need to take care of your man. You need to take care of your man. You need to meet his needs because, otherwise, they'll find it somewhere else. Men are going to be men. It want to happen. I don't know. It's going to happen. You can't avoid it. If you don't satisfy him, he's going to need it. He's going to go get it somewhere else."
Then I hear that, I'm like, "Oh, my God, I'm failing. I'm not doing this thing. Obviously, there's something wrong. How do I fix it? I'm a fixer so I have to fix it." It was very shocking at the moment because, like he said, we were still in the church. Now, he had had time to process this in secret. He knew his heart, he knew his feelings, he knew his body. He, as he felt things coming up, he could process them quietly. Now, I'm hit with all this things all at once.
Mark: Yes. I backed up the dump truck and was like, "Here you go."
Bru: That was very overwhelming. My response was not positive. Not positive.
Emma: When was this approximately, how many years ago?
Mark: Yes, that was about two and change years ago.
Emma: Relatively recently as far as the amount of time you've been together.
Mark: Yes.
Bru: Yes.
Mark: Again, at that time, I didn't even know-- I've heard this a lot on your podcast and it resonates with me where people say they didn't have the language. They didn't know this was a thing. I didn't even know hotwifing, nevermind non-monogamy and all the other stuff, all the dynamics that happened there and the language that can help people define things but I didn't know hotwifing was a thing.
I started Googling it, and I Googled, but to be honest, although I had time to process it, and I definitely, looking back in the past, I wish I would've been more honest upfront. I wouldn't have had to do this by myself or in hiding. I looked up, I learned a lot of things about it after I shared it with her as well, because it was at that point where I felt like the people say, this weight had been lifted off my chest. I started to feel more like, "Oh, my God, I can be honest." Even though it was hard for her to take, I was like, "No. I'm just going to be honest." This isn't going to work. It doesn't make sense. It hit me. The light went off in my head and was like, "It doesn't make sense. Why not be honest?" Now Pandora's box is open, so let's just put all the variables out there and see how it goes.
Emma: Had you started backing away from the church before that?
Mark: Yes.
Emma: Okay. There was a little bit of a processing, too.
Mark: Well, this is 2020, end of 2021, 2022. We had already stopped going to church partially. Not because we were interested in non-monogamy, necessarily. It was because of things related to COVID, me starting, at that point, to have really fundamental beliefs and differences about things related to COVID, things related to politics, things related to, in my view, just the treatment of people. I said we were part of the leadership. There were things that were going on behind the scenes of the church that I was like, "I'm genuinely upset and uncomfortable about this, and I don't think I can be a part of it anymore." Because of COVID, not every state did this, but where we live,-
Bru: Because of where we live, the churches had to stop.
Mark: -they were shut down for a while, and we stopped going. We both shared this feeling of we don't really miss it. We're not like, "Oh, man, I can't wait for church to start up again. This is nice, actually."
Mark: That started us shying away, not really becoming active members, and simultaneously starting to question our core beliefs and the things that we followed. We were always more liberal, even when we were in it. I guess you could say politically, too, but I remember having arguments when the US Supreme Court "legalized same-sex marriages," and I was like, "Yes, I'm all for this. Why would you not be for this?" Even though at that time I didn't believe it was-- I feel so bad saying this but the right lifestyle.
Bru: We don't believe that anymore.
Mark: I feel bad saying it now, but at the point I was like, "But those people should be allowed to do the same thing. Why are you going to stop consenting adults?" I was shunned and people would gasp when I would share my views on that, as an example. COVID was really a breaking point for us when we started to shy away from actually going and being members of a church.
Emma: Thank you for expanding on that. I didn't mean to necessarily link leaving the church with non-monogamy, specifically.
Mark: No, no, no, I know.
Emma: It's an evolution, and that's a part of it, and there were lots of other reasons why you moved away from the church, too.
Bru: I believe it was very important in our process of exploring non-monogamy because things would have been different had we not also been leaving the church at the same time. We've talked about the hypothetical if Mark has shared this with me 10, 15 years ago. If we had known, I wouldn't have married him. It's horrible to think that way, but it is because-
Mark: That's where we were.
Bru: -we have to be honest, that's who we were. I was so into it and so against so many things that this was a big no, no. No way. You don't even think about this stuff. It's this, you get married, and it's forever and till death do us part.
Mark: Till death do us part.
Bru: We still love each other and are committed to each other tremendously, but not at the expense of our own selves. I think that was the big thing that we've learned through this whole process--
Mark: Learning.
Bru: We're still learning through the process, yes, is that we shouldn't burn ourselves to keep the other warm. We use that saying often. We shouldn't sacrifice our own needs and who we are in order to fit into this ideal scenario of what a marriage is supposed to be like, what a relationship should be like. Because then how could you ever be truly happy in it? Are you in it because this is good and this fulfills you, it makes you feel like you're enjoying life, or are you in it because you're supposed to? Because you signed a contract because somebody said-
Mark: These are the rules.
Bru: -"Let them be. Now they're husband and wife." I think, now, it's much more honest. The commitment was there then, but now, it's even more true, and more real because knowing everything, with everything on the table, we are still choosing each other. Where before, it's like you chose each other, but you didn't know. There's so much that was hidden.
Then you have to question, "Well, would I still be with this person if I have everything, if I know their best and their worst?" That's been a huge and continues to be a huge part of our exploration is that as we come up, and we're honest with what turns us on, with what turns us off, with what we want, with what we feel, are we still checking, you still want this, you still want me, you still want us? Then moving forward from that. I don't know if that makes sense.
Finn: No, it makes total sense. I just love how you framed all of that. I get nervous about asking these types of questions. The next question I'm going to ask, because I don't want to make it seem like one of you is the reason, or you are the one who wanted it.
Bru: I'm the reason.
Finn: You said something, Bru, that was really important, which was Mark knew these things and had a lot of time to sit and process them before he brought them. This is often the case, whichever person in the relationship is the person who's sitting and thinking, "There's this big thing that I've got to talk about. How do I do it?" You're processing and processing, and who knows? That could be weeks, that could be years that this happens. Or sometimes, we've talked to people, it's decades. Then you bring it, like you said, Mark, you back the truck up, then you dump it, and then you get to play a new game of while it's waiting to see if the other person-- what is their processing time like, but also what comes out of their processing. I'm curious, Bru, for you, once Mark dumped this on you, and it almost, in some ways, cracked open the worldview, did that give you any type of freedom to say, "Well, what is it that I actually want now?"
Bru: Yes. It was not instantaneous, the freedom for me to open up to what it meant for me. I think, initially, it was more about what does this even mean? Again, at first, it was almost like the stages of grief. I don't know the order, though, please, whoever's listening, this might not be accurate, but there's that aspect of you freak out. There's also some denial. There were so many emotions all at once of the shock of it.
It was also, that grief aspect did apply because as we've talked about it many times after that, there's been a process of what our relationship was and what it is. There was a grief in the sense of that the world as we knew it in monogamy, and in religion, it blew up.
Mark threw a bomb at it and it blew up. Then I think the best way that I've explained it afterwards is taking the pieces that we do want and then putting back together and adding new things to it. Then putting it back together to what we really want and what really fits us and who we are. There was this-- I don't know, ball, box, whatever you want to call it, that we fit into-
Mark: It's like a 3D puzzle.
Bru: -with all things that we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to be as husband and wife, as parents, as Christians, as human, as women, I don't know if I already repeated myself. This is how you have to fit this, you have to fit this, and then he's like, "No, this doesn't work. This is not good," and you just push on it and boom, it blew up. Now, it's like, "Okay. Well, which of those things I still want in my life? Which of those things still apply? Which of those things are still me and us?" Then putting that together, and like I said, adding what we learned along the way that is new and we wanted. We welcome this into our relationship and no, that we don't want. Get rid of it if it doesn't feel good. Then as we've progressed through it, even initially in the exploration, as I said, we started opening up a little bit with the how do I think? That was a year and a half ago that we first had those experiences.
It was all in my mind about Mark. Mark's pleasure doing the thing that's going to satisfy him, turn him on, get him excited because that feels good to me. We realized that that wasn't good enough, that my motivation to please him would not make this work, that the motivation needed to come from me to want this, as well. That was a hard thing to come to terms with because I had to now dig into myself and discover what I wanted to be able to truly be honest about whether I wanted to go into this journey with him or not.
Initially, it was more like, "Okay, I'll do this for him." Then he was like, "Yes, that's not good enough. You need to know that you want this for you." Then that's where it brings us to today, where it's like, "I want it, too." Do I still have difficulties? We can get into that if you want to, if you have time about trauma and issues that I had growing up and how it affects my processing versus his processing of it. I've also come to discover a lot, like you said, about me, after opening up to that idea, my own sexuality, realizing that I actually have curiosities, bi curiosities, and which then I was never.
I think back about my childhood, I can't think about a moment when I felt this or thought this, and it was because I was so suppressed, so inside the box that that was never even a thought that I could let happen. Now, breaking out of that, it's like, "What do you want? What do you like?" Really being honest, and I'm happy. As hard as it is, we're happy with how we've come to learn more about each other and our likes and dislikes, and the things that make us.
Mark: I think for both of us, there's two sides to it. There's one of the common things that happens in monogamy and definitely happened with us is in trying to break away from that norm is the codependency. Even in the beginning, it was still codependent. It was like her enjoyment was almost completely dependent on me, and then I didn't like that. I was like, "Oh, that doesn't feel great." I'm like, "I want you to want to make me happy. I don't want to be with somebody who's like, "How can I make my partner miserable today?" I don't want that, but I don't want them to do things because of me.
I was asking, "Do you like this? Do you want to do this? Is this something that," and her answer, most of the time would be, "No, I'm doing it for you, really." Then also, like she mentioned-- do you mind if I just share about the CPTSD? No, I won't go into detail, I'll say-- The reason why it was hard is because part of the reason why Brunelle may have some codependent tendencies is because she had suffered some childhood abuse and because it created that complex post-traumatic stress disorder, that it rewired her brain at that time, and then that's how she lived her life to always be thinking about others, to always put others first, to always make everybody else happy, to always be a people pleaser.
This, when we first started exploring it, was just another color of that. Like she said, we got to a point where we both were like, "I think we need to deal with some of the underlying issues before we move forward."
Emma: Yes. Thank you both for touching on that, and thank you for sharing that is the importance of wanting to go into non-monogamy or explore those types of relationships and whatever that means to you, it needs to be from both of you. Like you said, I understand the default of people pleasing, wanting to do things for other people. So many of us have those tendencies for a number of different reasons, plus society kind of often tells you that, too. There's all of that going on, but coming back to be, taking that time to really sit with, "What do I want? What do I want to do moving forward?" It is not that easy. I just appreciate both of you sharing that.
Mark: To answer your original question, Finn, our dynamic, really, is, I'm the gas and she's the brake, and that's okay. I want her to be excited about it, but one of our challenges is and where we've had to do a lot of hard work on not what I call like a downward spiral where we're just now just bouncing off of each other's tough emotions is like I'm looking for her to share in the excitement for herself, and she's looking for me sometimes to drop the bomb and another bomb, now the truth.
What that means and what the work that we've put in to do that is like I have to accept that even that she may get to being excited about something that she's not me, she's going to not always share in the excitement that I may have about some new adventure or some new person or a couple that maybe we're talking to, and I have to be not only okay with it, I have to validate it, and I have to be like, "Yes, this is okay." It's okay for her to process this differently than me.
In my mind, what tends to happen is, when I see her maybe approach something that she's not super excited about, I tend to, in my initial emotional reaction is, "She doesn't want this." That's not true, and I have to fight in my own mind to be like, "She's processing it differently. It's okay. It doesn't mean she doesn't want it necessarily, but it also doesn't mean that she's going to want it either. I have to let her process it at her own time, her own speed, and just check in with her and reassure it where necessary."
We just started this thing where we're going to start having regular check-ins, whereas before, it was like, it dominated our conversations because it was like, "What do you think? What do you think? What do you feel? What do you feel?" Now, we're like, "Okay, maybe we're going to save some of those conversations for a regular check-in." Then she has to be okay with me being excited, and with me being like-- but I think in a car, for a car to work, you use this analogy, a car without gas is pointless, and a car without brakes is dangerous.
I've gotten to the point now where I'm really thankful for that dynamic in us because it doesn't mean we don't get to explore, which I wouldn't want. It doesn't mean we don't get to be our authentic selves. It just means that we just need to go at a pace that makes everybody safe and makes everybody feel included.
Finn: That's such a hard balance to strike. How do we go fast enough that Mark doesn't feel held back, but slow enough that Bru doesn't feel like it's out of control, right?
Mark: Yes, we're not doing NASCAR Formula One, or worse, I'm not trying to break the land barrier speed record, it's dangerous that when you go too fast, right?
Finn: Yes.
Mark: Some people can be speed junkies. I'm not, but I can be if I'm not careful with my own-- I don't know what the word would be, my own tendencies.
Finn: Totally. It's very relatable.
Bru: Our favorite word, and you said it, is balance.
Mark: Balance and nuance are my two favorite things in the world.
Bru: In everything, not just the exploration of E&M, but in parenting, in our job, life, work-life balance. If it's too much, if you go too much towards one end or the other, then bad things happen. We want to be able to create balance in everything so that we're both comfortable. Now that is not always so perfect. There isn't a line. I think that the idea of the old balance in physics or something like that. I'm not a scientist, you think of balance that it will be equal. You put it on this side and this side, and they'll eventually be-
Mark: The scale will be flatter.
Bru: -equal, but the balance in the aspect of our relationship, I think it's not always equal. What he means is that it gives and takes in a way that neither one just gives out. There's going to be moments in which I have more energy and I'm more excited and then Mark is more low, but then my energy is able to pull him. There's going to be other moments when I'm down, and he's going to be up. We help each other, and there's that give and take. As long as he doesn't go too far to one side or the other, then we're okay. The idea of balance, so it's very, very important to us. We just keep on trying, just like where I think that balance and looking for that fairness in our relationship is what creates the space for growth, where we don't feel afraid of sharing or being our true selves, of saying how excited you are or of saying how scared you may be, because the other person is not going to react in a way that shuts you down, but still being able to express that this is hard for them, but it's okay. Processing, going through that process together, that's been huge.
It did not start that way. It started with a lot of triggering each other, that he will share his excitement, and my response will be to feel triggered and afraid, and oh, my God this means he's going to leave me, and oh, my God he's met somebody else, and oh, my God he's fallen in love right. Things like that. Jumping the gun, jumping ahead without--
Mark: Assumptions.
Bru: Yes, assuming things without really giving him the space to be honest and share calmly.
Mark: Then I would get triggered because I'm like, "I'm doing this "the right way," why doesn't she trust me? I'm not a liar. Why is she treating me like one?" Then I'd get defensive. That's where I said it created that downward spiral where we were just feeding off of each other's triggers. It is, it's a hard thing to do to stop that cycle and do the work and say, "Hold on, I'm not going to assume this, but I want to ask it. I would have to say, I'm feeling defensive to actually say how you feel, I'm feeling defensive, but I want to know, are you accusing me of this or do you feel that I'm doing this?
When you actually get to, instead of making those assumptive questions or statements, you get to the core of like, "Okay, this is how I'm feeling." I think both of us have been able to deal with that and say, "Okay, I can respect that. I'm okay with you feeling that way. You feeling X doesn't bother me. However, you reacting to that feeling and feeling defensive or acting accusatory, that does bother me. I'd appreciate if you didn't do that." That's a hard conversation thing to do. I don't think it's the way our brains are wired, us personally, naturally. It can be hard to break that wiring, to do that rewiring.
Emma: That's huge and it takes time, it takes intention and it takes effort. I think opening up a relationship that has been monogamous for many years, society shows us and teaches us to become so enmeshed and codependent and all of that. Then trying to break that open and change those patterns, change those habits, it is incredibly difficult. Ultimately, I know it can be beautiful, it is beautiful, but that work, you have to be wanting to do that work.
Mark: We just had this conversation.
Bru: We just had this conversation, actually, was it two nights ago? Two nights ago, I think-
Mark: Yes.
Bru: -which shows that we're still very new in the whole process, the conversation of this is not going to be easy. It's not going to be easy today, it's not going to be easy yesterday. If we stick with non-monogamy, if we stick with it-
Mark: With our relationship.
Bru: -and with our relationship, whether we go back to monogamy, relationships are hard and they take work and they take effort. Then there's either, wow, this is hard and yes, we're going to have days where you're just like, "Oh, I'm so tired. This is exhausting. Putting in the work is exhausting, but I want this," versus, "This is hard work, I don't want this anymore." To stop and I really came to Mark and I said, "Okay, my issues with healing from my trauma, the work that I'm putting in on myself and how it still affects our relationship is very difficult. It takes a lot of effort. There can be very hard days."
Me admitting that this isn't something that's going to happen overnight, and there's no guarantee that in a year or in 10 years, I will be all better. Actually, the likelihood is that as somebody who had childhood trauma, I will always carry this with me. There will always be effects of it. Then saying, "Are you in on this? Are you committed to staying with this? Can you handle the work that this is going to take, or do you want out?" Those are hard conversations, but necessary. If you do not make sure that this is what you really want, then you're going to put effort into putting all this to just then waste it.
Mark: Or do what so many people do where they just ignore it and bury it, and then it comes out in other unhealthy ways and we didn't want either of those things. Again, it's hard because my trigger is not being trusted. That's my issue. I try really hard. I have my whole life to do it the right way, again, using air quotes, people who are listening. When I try to do something the right way and then somebody comes and questions it, I'm indignant. I'm like, "How dare you? There's so many people out there who are just happily doing it the wrong way or the moral way, and here you are questioning me?"
I know that sounds stupid, but it's just the way my brain, or maybe-- Finn's shaking his head so he disagreed, but it's just the way my brain hears thinks. I know it could be sometimes egocentric, and I know sometimes it's not that thought process, is something that I struggle, and it's an ongoing thing to not listen to and let dictate my actions.
Emma: Yes.
Finn: I was shaking my head because it's a thought pattern that I share. I'm curious, just for curiosity's sake, are you a bit of a perfectionist, Mark?
Mark: No, she is. I'm not a perfectionist, but what I tend to do is I can disassociate very quickly. When I lose interest, I'm like, "I'm done. Don't bother me, leave me alone. I'm not a perfectionist. I'm happy in a mess, but what I do to do that is I go to my nothing box in my brain. I just don't think about it, which isn't healthy either. I'll just turn on the TV or I'll turn on my Xbox or I'll open my phone and I'll just veg out, which again isn't a healthy coping mechanism either. It can create just as much chaos as a perfectionist can. That's my thought process, is I'm working hard to do this, and I feel bad when somebody even insinuates that I'm not doing those things.
Finn: Got it.
Mark: I have to fight to not let those feelings dictate what I say and how I act. Just identifying them, I think for both of us was hard. Just to actually pause for a second and say, "Here's what I feel," was an incredibly breakthrough type thing, but it was really hard to do.
Finn: I appreciate that. I ask that question because I think you and I land in a very similar place when it comes to that, being a little bit indignant and I often tie mine. It's similar in the sense that you're questioning my integrity, you're questioning my trustworthiness and all of that, and there's also a part of me that says, "Look, I have been searching for a way to do this perfectly for a number of hours that you probably couldn't even fathom. Weeks, months, I've spent 15 hours a day thinking about this to come to the "right answer," and for you to then say, 'I don't know if that's the right answer.'"
It's very challenging for me to absorb because I'm like, "I've dedicated the last three weeks of my life to seeking out this solution, and you-
Bru: You're questioning that.
Finn: -seemingly have not."
Mark: You're just poo-pooing on it. You're just like, "Yes, I get it."
Finn: Yes, it seems like we're--
Mark: You're just dumping mud on it.
Bru: That was going to be my--
Mark: I could do that with my thoughts. I could do that with my opinions because I think a lot about the things that I believe. When I go to a topic, even though I work-- I work in construction, but one of my hobbies and in my former life I worked in finance, economics is really interesting to me. I think a lot about economics and I've gotten in some arguments or debates with people where they literally are like," I can't talk to you. I'm leaving this conversation," because I go into it sometimes trying to prove them wrong and show this beautiful idea or opinion that I have crafted with my own hands and made. Now I have to have you like dirty it? How dare you?
Bru: Disagree with it.
Finn: I think what you just said there is spot-on, which is the outcome of that for partners is just agree because if I question this idea, it's not going to go well. Then that's the work of, I might hold this so true and you can have a different truth but then how do you decouple it and say, "You go live yours, I'm going to live mine." That's partly the work we're doing right now is me being like, "Okay, yes, you think differently than me. You look at this problem and you see a different solution, you should follow your solution and I'm going to follow my solution. Then I hope we are both right and that your solution works for you and that mine works for me."
Mark: At the bare minimum, we can come together and say, "Even if one didn't work or one worked or one didn't, or maybe they both worked, wherever it falls it's like we still come together and say, 'I love you. I respect you. I want to be with you. It's okay if it's different or not.'" Be true to yourself and say, "This makes us in a way that's fundamentally incompatible. I have to love myself and let that guide my actions." It's hard.
Bru: I think there's been a huge part too of my difficulty with like I said, I am a perfectionist and failure is hard, hard, hard, hard. I've worked my whole life to excel. This was in school, in relationships, whatever I took on, I will try my hardest to be at the top, and again, because of my trauma, it was all about my value. Without these achievements, without these successes, I'm nothing.
I need to achieve these things. I need to have this success in order for others to love me and care for me. That's what attracts them towards me. Then if I don't have these things, then I'm nothing. Then I worked really hard. Then to come into non-monogamy and exploring to be like, "Oh my God, this is a great thing." There's so many stories of people who have been successful. There's so much growth to gain through it, but there's also a lot of suffering that can happen. There's a lot of failure that can happen as well. Then to come to terms with this can be amazing, and it could also destroy us.
Mark: It's even harder than that, I think. I think it's like you have to redefine failure and success. Again, it's a whole paradigm shift. To the outside world, if we were to divorce after nearly 18 years, or separate after 18 years of marriage, everyone that I know would look at that and say, "That's a failure. You guys, your marriage failed." Obviously I'm not going to be able to talk to every single person, but it's hard to just accept that. In our own lives, you have to define success and failure for yourself. When you do that, where you always look outside for that validation, it's really hard to do that.
Bru: Not that we're looking to separate. Some people are aware, but we are right now.
Finn: Totally but that is what you just said, Mark to me, it's a reword of what Bru said earlier, which is we can't burn ourselves to keep the other person warm. If you get to a place where you're both looking at the construct of your relationship or your marriage and saying, "If we both continue down this, we're just going to keep burning ourselves to warm each other up, where actually we need to redefine this in a way that allows us to both be warm without burning," then you haven't failed. You've succeeded at being yourself and supporting the other person in being themselves. That might mean an appearance of failure to the outside world.
Bru: Yes, to the world. That's true.
Mark: For some people, to get a C in a class is a success. It's true but look, she's thinking about it right now.
Finn: Oh, I know.
Mark: She's in class. What?
Finn: I really-
Mark: For me, I remember a lot of times being like, "I got to see."
Emma: What's coming to me too is what you're describing is almost like the-- Finn and I had this conversation just the other day of the things that are hard for each of you, almost fuel the other person and fit perfectly into this puzzle of if you aren't careful, you go down these paths of cycling and down the drain. You have to stop. You have to stop and be intentional and be like, "Wait, wait, wait. You're thinking about this different and all of the things in your life and the way you are and everything make you think that way and I'm thinking this way. Can we slow down and talk about this?"
Ultimately then make that decision of, at some point, do you want to keep doing the work? Do you want to keep working on that relationship or at some point, you don't want to? Then that's not necessarily a failure. It's reframing all of that.
Bru: Yes, but that's so hard. I think totally that that idea of-- it goes back to how he process things and how his personal feelings to us, we're exploring these things and how I come into it with my baggage. Especially when it comes to the distrust of how his intentions or what is it that he's thinking. Is he thinking of me? Is he considering me in this picture as we're still together? He can hear my questions and my assumptions and things like that, and feel like, how could you not see that I am trustworthy? How could you not see that I love you? How could you not see that I have your best interest in mind?
Then I have to explain to him because he's not in my brain or in my body. I have to explain, and--
Mark: I enjoy being in your body though.
Emma: A little comedic relief. Nice.
Bru: I've had to share a lot and help him almost get a picture into what I go through. That's happened through sharing articles, videos, podcasts, different things that talk about complex PTSD. Just so people understand who are listening and if you guys get a better picture, I don't have to go into great detail, but I was sexually abused by my step-grandfather when I was a child for more than one time.
I know there's a trigger warning there for people. That didn't come out to anybody else. I held this in me and buried it for almost 30 years. I shared it with Mark when I was pregnant with our youngest, who is five. That was a lot of years of my brain processing things in a way of carrying that trauma and not dealing with it. It affect every area of my life, including my relationships. Then we get into the whole dynamic today of my trust issues not being related to what Mark is doing, but being related to the past and the trauma. Then it being triggered because-- I actually shared an article with him recently that explained what C-PTSD is.
When you are a child versus as a grownup and how as a child and your brain is developing and you have this trauma that happens and it shatters your world as it is. Then you start seeing the world from a different perspective of, everybody's out to get me. I'm going to get hurt. People will say that they love me, but they don't because they're going to do something bad to me. You can't trust and waiting for the shoe to drop or the something bad to happen, living with that paranoia, always protecting myself, defending myself. Then as Mark will come to me with curiosities or sharing things about him, then I'm like, "I got to protect myself. I put up my walls.
I'm ready to fight because you are going to hurt me. This is what my body knows. This is what my brain knows." That's the mode that I go into. Then the process now has been, instead of doing, reacting, saying, "Whoa, I'm feeling triggered. This scares me. This is difficult for me. This is what I'm feeling. My brain is saying do this, but I'm rationally thinking through it. Is it fire or is it smoke? Do I need to react? Do I need to fight now or am I still safe?"
Then knowing the difference and then being able to communicate that to Mark so that he understands where I'm coming from is exhausting. It is so difficult but it's also so worth it. On hard days, it sucks. On good days, when I'm able to see the progress that we've made, the growth, the healing, it's so rewarding. We wouldn't be where we are right now if we hadn't done all that work because We could very easily be like, "No, this is scary. I'm not doing it. This triggers me. I'm not doing it and we're not doing that." We're saying, "This is scary, but it's necessary. It's worth it. We need to go through it."
Sorry, I'm making him emotional. I end up checking like you said, Emma, of are you still in it? This is hard, are we still on the same page? Do we still want this for each other and with each other? Okay, then let's keep going. It's okay if we come to a checking where that is not the answer. Where the answer is no, I'm done or I want something else. It will still be extremely difficult but I think part of the growth is understanding that we must love each ourselves and be true to ourselves even if that meant that we cannot be with each other. That it doesn't work for our relationship. Sorry.
Mark: It's okay.
Bru: I know there was a lot that I just shared all at once.
Mark: She backed up the dump truck. No.
Emma: No. I appreciate Bru you sharing all of that and giving context to your lived experience and your life. It's incredibly vulnerable. Just thank you for sharing because unfortunately, I know there's people out there that can relate and will relate, and putting that out there and just the way you did, thank you.
Mark: What I could say is her partner in all of this is if somebody's listening out there and they've been through maybe something similar as her and the reason why I was shedding a tear and you might hear the emotion in my voice is because as her husband, as her partner is I've seen that growth and it's so beautiful.
Bru: Now he's going to make me cry.
Emma: That's okay. Tears are okay. Tears are good.
Mark: It's worth it. It's been worth it. It's been something that's been just again, very beautiful and very worth it.
Emma: Make a joke, somebody.
.
Finn: Do you have a relationship blooper you'd like to tell?
Worst timing ever for that question.
Mark: podcast and Mark couldn't stop crying.
Finn: No, I will say this. Mark and Bru, we've cried on here before. There's an episode that we did about two years ago. We had to shut it off in the middle because I completely lost it so you're in good company.
Mark: The tears of joy because I look back on-- again, I used the analogy a few times. When we started transitioning to a more non-monogamous relationship, there was that grief. It was almost like you were leaving an old home that you grew up in but it doesn't suit you anymore. It doesn't fit you. After everything's been moved out, you walk through the halls, you look at it, shit, you remember all the memories, the good times, the bad times and then it's emotional. You know okay, in our case, at least we're not leaving this house again "because it's bad for us or it's just that we've outgrown it and it doesn't suit us anymore."
Now we're going to this other thing. When I look at that, I'm like, "Oh, wow." We didn't have a "bad marriage" when we were monogamous. We fell into some traps that when you're monogamous generally speaking, and I know it's a little bit of a stereotype, you just don't address. They just get swept under the rug. In almost independent of monogamy versus non-monogamy, I look at it and I'm like, "Wow, we're so much in such a better spot today and we happen to be exploring this great adventure of non-monogamy that's fun and exciting and scary but that's what adventure is."
Finn: I love that. I love your analogy or metaphor about the house and when you move out and I think to even build on that, you've left one and you move into the new one and it's move-in ready but at what point? Moving into non-monogamy, it's not move-ready. You've got to paint the walls. You probably redo the flooring. You might have to fix the foundation. That's a big one, right? You've got so much work for your new house to actually be livable and so there's a spell where you're like, "We're living with a tarp on the roof and plastic in the windows and we're cooking on a camp stove." That's what we're doing right now because we're rebuilding something that is a better-suited home for us.
Mark: Yes, definitely.
Finn: Fixing it while you're living in it is hell-hard.
Mark: Agreed. Yes.
Bru: Sometimes you wish it was all moving ready.
That process is so difficult and all the repairs can take so much time and effort and money in that sense that you may have days when you just wish you were on the other end past all that work, past all the repairs, past all that time. What is success without the process to get to it?
Mark: I'm a big hip hop, rap fan. One of my favorite artists is a guy by the name of Jay Cole and he has this song called Love Yours. In that song, he just says, there's beauty in the struggle. It's incredibly hard when you're in the struggle to recognize it. Again, we're on the other side. "We've done some stuff. " We have fixed the roof maybe, we've addressed some things and then you look at it. That's why I got emotional before because it's like, "Wow, look at it. There it is and it's beautiful and it's suiting and it fits us and we don't feel cramped or uncomfortable."
Emma: Uncomfortable.
Mark: It's like this is ours, we've made it and it's beautiful.
Finn: Which is also much more rewarding than moving into a house with a new roof already on it, right?
Mark: Yes.
Finn: The move-in ready is great but--
Emma: The work is-
Finn: -the work is the power. That's the thing that connects you. Then when you leave that one, you're like "That's our fucking roof. That's not the roof that came along with the house."
Mark: We built it with our blood, sweat, and tears.
Bru: I think my desire for the world, I have those idealistic views sometimes it's that every relationship is like that. That people don't feel like they are given a house. How nice is it when people, here's a down payment, go, "This is your house"? It's like, "Yes but what if once I'm in it, it doesn't fit, it doesn't feel good, I don't like it?
Mark: It leads to a sense of entitlement.
Bru: Oh, I got to live here now.
Mark: Where you feel crap.
Bru: Somebody gave it to me. They told me this is a house I have to be in but what if it's not good? The hope is that everybody will be able to make a house their home. That is what
Finn: Can we have you two back on sometime soon?
Emma: Thank you both for just such a beautiful conversation and deep conversation. I know there's a million more questions we could ask you. As Finn said, we'd love to have you both back on for another update and conversation just because there's so much here and we really appreciate everything you've shared today.
Mark: Thank you for doing this. We're huge fans. Part of our nervousness, I was like, "Oh, we're going to be talking to celebrities."
We're huge admirers of your work in the community that you guys-
Bru: Have created.
Mark: -have created. Thank you for having us and thank you for all your work.
Finn: Appreciate it. Thank you. Next time you'll be less nervous. We'll have to figure out a different sandwich to talk about.
We'll figure it out.
Emma: Before we go, is there anything else that either of you wanted to get out there on this episode? I know we covered a lot of ground and we're wrapping up because of time and we don't want this episode to be three hours long but we'll have to do part two.
Finn: It easily could be. It would be amazing.
Emma: It easily could be.
Finn: It would be an amazing three-hour podcast.
Emma: I feel like it's an abrupt ending but I also want to give you both an opportunity to share anything else.
Finn: They're called cliffhangers.
Emma: Okay. That's true.
Bru: Tune in for next--
Finn: That's right. To be continued.
Bru: I would say for anybody listening that seek to learn, reach out because doing this alone is harder than it needs to be. Sikh community, we found that in the beginning when we were doing it on our own and researching and listening, it helped but then once we started looking for community, joining your community on Mighty. Then also a local community that we recently found. It just helps us feel less lonely, helps us feel connected, it encourages us. When you hear about other people's success-
Mark: Or challenges.
Bru: -or challenges. Can you do it alone? Yes but if you could do it with support and help, it would be so much better. I will say that find a way to connect with others. I think we share information I think with the emails or things like that. We are on the Mighty app so if anybody that hears this feels that something that we said resonated with them, we're always willing to talk to people and we welcome that. We'd like to connect with others.
Finn: I love that. That's incredibly generous. I appreciate you mentioning that you're part of our community and have been for a while. I think for anybody out there who's ever wondering what are the people in that community like, this is what our community is like and you're not the only two in there who--
Mark: Bunch of large men who cry.
Finn: That's right.
I'm just very grateful that you two are part of our community and now part of the history of this thing we've created.
Emma: Podcast?
Finn: Yes.
Bru: Yes. That podcast.
Emma: We feel the same way.
Finn: Yes. We feel the same.
Emma: Mark, was there anything on your end that you wanted to say?
Mark: No, nothing off the top of my head. Like I said, we're thankful to be where we are and we're very thankful for the work you guys have done. That's it.
Finn: Thank you.
Emma: You had a blooper, we did think about a blooper.
Mark: We did think about a blooper but they didn't ask you yet.
Finn: Let's do it. It's actually blooper time now.
Mark: When we were doing the hotwifing thing, we met this guy and it was going to be our first threesome ever. I sometimes when I get excited, I told you that I'm the gas. I'm also the gas in my own head and mine could start spinning at a million revolutions per minute and I get overload. In the beginning, one of the things I did is that I used some medical help to help me stay in the moment and be able to perform. I usually would take a certain dose of that medicine that worked for me. For whatever reason, that night when we set it up, we were meeting at a hotel and we were going to do it and I'm like, "I'm going to be--
Bru: I want to be rock hard and will stay like this all night.
Mark: I am going to be the king of sex tonight. For whatever reason, I didn't take more than they tell you you can take but I took the max dose which was way too much for me. I then went on to experience massive headaches, the worst dry mouth I've ever had in my life. In the middle of it, I kept going to the bathroom because I'm like, "I want to drink some water." My tongue was glued and it had the opposite effect. I had a little bit of trouble performing because my head was pounding and my mouth was so dry. Afterwards I was like, "I don't think I'm going to do that again. I don't know what I was thinking."
I really got in my dumb male brain and just take more and it'll help you. It was funny afterwards and I handled it I think okay in the middle of it but just looking back, I'm like, "What was I thinking? Why would I take so much of this stuff that made me underperform I think pretty badly?" Anyway, that's our--
Finn: I love that.
Emma: Thank you for sharing that blooper.
Finn: A cautionary tale and I will say--
Emma: Very, very likely relatable to people out there or people here.
Finn: Or people in here.
.
Those performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals, I don't know all of the science but definitely for me, it's like I have an immediate sinus infection-
-if I take too much. My nose will be stuffed, my face turns bright red. She knows within a minute. She's like, "Did you?" I was like, "No." Then I can't breathe through my nose, so then I'm like a mouth breather. It's awesome. It's really good.
Bru: So flattering. I love to see it.
Finn: It's a good look. I don't want to brag.
Bru: Then we learn from it and then don't do it again.
Finn: That's right. The tip is balance. As in all things.
Bru: That's the word of the day.
Finn: Word of the day.
Emma: Balance.
Finn: Yes. I love it.
Emma: Thank you both, and thank you for sharing that too. We so appreciate both of you and love this conversation and can't wait to talk again soon.
Finn: Yes. Thank you so much.
Bru: Same, thanks for having us again.
Dedeker: I really hope that you enjoyed that episode. Please go and follow normalizing non-monogamy wherever you get your podcast. If you want to discuss this episode with other listeners, the best place to do that is in our episode discussion channel in our discord server or you can post about it in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our community by going to multiamory.com/join.