518 - Talking to Kids about Non-Monogamy (with Evolving Love)
Welcome, Abbey and Liam!
Today we’re joined by Abbey and Liam from the Evolving Love Project for their valuable perspective on some listener questions, particularly the ones asking about parenthood.
Abbey and Liam have been together for over twelve years and non-monogamous for over a decade. Together they started the Evolving Love Project which hosts monthly conversation nights for non-monogamous or curious folk in Canberra and Sydney, Australia and co-host the acclaimed podcast Evolving Love. Abbey also publishes weekly on Substack with her musings on non-monogamy, parenthood & sexuality. They believe that by removing the stigma from these topics, collectively we can push the culture in a positive, caring and more loving direction.
The questions from our listeners we’ll be discussing are:
“I am about a year into polyamory. I would love to find a local group of people to share resources and experiences (Yes, I did check the Patreon group! Sadly no one lives near me.) What are some good ways to go about this in terms of getting the word out, organizing the meetings, and keeping the meetings as safe as possible?
Building the Plane While Flying”
"What experiences or stories can y'all draw from where people were able to create polyamorous community where there wasn't a pre-existing community? What approaches seem to work best in informal social settings for bringing up the topic, gauging and creating interest in more freely loving ways of being, and more closely knit, collaborative lifestyles?
Bonus points if there are examples of how this has worked for people living in more sparsely populated areas, and areas with a conservative lean where caution is a necessity to avoid communal backlash or alienation.
Poly Community Cultivator”“After being monogamous for seven years, my partner and I decided to open our relationship. We discussed the possibility at the beginning of our relationship, but decided to revisit it in the future.
Fast forward seven years, I met someone and there was a definite spark. I discussed it with my partner before anything took place, and while they were nervous, they were not fully opposed. We talked for months, set parameters, and I was told to go for it. I've been incredibly happy in both relationships for just shy of a year.
My original partner and I agreed they are able to date others as well, but they have no desire to do so. They're not giving me any grief, but they're not the same person anymore. That spark is gone, and there always seems to be an underlying sadness, not just with me, but in her relationships with friends and family too. She also has generalized anxiety disorder, which was largely under control, but now, not as much.
I've discussed this with her and she insists it's fine. They're happy to see me so happy. But there is no denying, this is hurting her.
Some of my poly friends insist the best thing to do is end the relationship, stating mono/poly never works. My non-poly friends insist I need to break things off with my new partner if I truly love my original partner. My original partner is not asking for me to end my new relationship at all. I just hate seeing the change in her.
Can you offer any advice? Can this work or am I just living in constant guilt, even though my original partner is telling me that I have nothing to feel guilty about?
Naive in NY”“I live with my nesting partner, and my other partner (of approx 7 months) lives around a 45 minute drive away. I already drive a lot for work, my schedule is in general pretty full and so I usually see my non-NP once a week-ish. Whenever something major pops up (trips, work related things), this can be even less and I'm STRUGGLING with missing him. The NRE is still really strong, and I just want to be around him a lot more than I currently am. At the same time, I know both of our schedules don't really allow more than what we're getting now, so the issue becomes more - How do I deal with missing him? I love that I miss him, and I love that I'm so excited to see him, but it can also make me sad, preoccupied etc. when I let myself ruminate on the fact. I'm already "distracted" enough by work and hobbies, so that's also not really something I feel I can use to help me move my thoughts away from him(/us).
Yearning in Europe”
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're doing another listener Q&A all about parenting while being non-monogamous. Now, the keen-eyed or keen-eared listeners in the audience will remember that the three of us do not have any children of our own, even though I do love taking care of my friends' children when I can.
To answer these questions, we are joined by some special guests, Abbey and Liam from the Evolving Love Project. Abbey and Liam are the founders of the Evolving Love Project, which hosts monthly conversation nights for non-monogamous or curious folk in Canberra and Sydney, Australia, and co-host the acclaimed podcast, Evolving Love. Abbey also publishes weekly on Substack with her musings on non monogamy, parenthood, and sexuality. Abbey and Liam, thank you so much for joining us today.
Liam: It's great to be here.
Abbey: Thanks so much, guys.
Dedeker: What is the weirdest question or assumption that you've encountered about parenting while being non-monogamous?
Liam: Oh, that's a great question to kick it off.
Abbey: That's a good one. I think that one of the most interesting questions or assumptions that we are asked is like, "How do you have time for all of this?" Also, "What is your house like? Just because if you're non-monogamous, does that mean that there's always like a sex party at your house or there's so many people or it's like a party? Are you living out on a commune or something like that?"
I think that's the one that jars me, because it's like, no, not at all. We consider ourselves to be, I think, quite similar to many parents. We have like routine and structure and all of those things. When people think that perhaps there's some wild things happening in our house all of the time, that really does take me off guard.
Dedeker: What is your house like?
Liam: It is full of energy always. We have a six-year-old son and he's extremely active, so he's running around all the time. We're always playing sport together. We're going for bike rides. We're going hiking. We're doing all of those things. I think often people think, "Oh, if you're non-monogamous, there's a time where you both leave the house and your child is left to fend for themselves at home." I think that's a big misconception and a strange question that often gets inferred when people are asking us about being parents and also being non-monogamous. It's like, yes, for us, our son is at the center of our universe. Then, of course, all the non-monogamy happens around that.
Jase: Yes. That is so weird, those assumptions that people would make like that. I'm also just thinking about some monogamous friends I have who I'm surprised at how many parties they throw at their house, even though they've got two kids now. I'm just like, "How do you have the energy for it?" Not even that it's inappropriate or anything, but it's still just like I don't have energy to throw parties and I don't have a kid.
Emily: Six-year-old kid, does that mean that you two started non-monogamy before, during, or after the child entered the picture?
Abbey: We did. We started exploring non-monogamy 10 years ago. It's definitely been a journey, but it was one of those very interesting things where we were non-monogamous before we became parents and we were always curious about how that would then impact or change after we became parents. Would we become less interested in non-monogamy or would we still be interested and what would that look like? Obviously, when you become a parent, things do change. It is a big, big change in your life.
I think that it's been really fascinating in the sense that I think a lot of our experiences and discussions around non-monogamy has, in its own way, had its own impact on our parenting as well, as far as communication, and logistics, and being able to talk really openly about things with each other. Yes, it's definitely been interesting.
Dedeker: What do you folks-- I imagine that in the work that you do, since you created this podcast and this community that you've probably met many other non-monogamous parents as well. Do you find a unifying theme of what non-monogamous parents maybe tend to struggle with or what their primary concerns tend to be?
Liam: Yes, I think really one thing that we see often is just a sense of trying to deal with the logistics of it all, and also to deal with the emotional bandwidth of it all. I think certainly some parents definitely find it difficult to juggle other relationships and their primary relationship, if they have a primary relationship with the mother of their child or children. I think there is that constant tension with how much time you're spending in one particular part and it's something that people are very appropriately aware of.
That's something that we definitely see in our conversation nights when we're talking to parents who are going, "Maybe I feel really guilty because I'm going on a date with a partner and maybe I should be spending time with my kid." There is always that little bit of tension, I think, in those moments.
Dedeker: When you were heading into this, since you were exploring non-monogamy before becoming parents, I guess, were you surprised by anything that became different for you? Did you think that it was going to go one way and then it didn't match your expectations?
Abbey: That's a really good question. I think we had the mindset of, we're moving into this next chapter of parenting and we're not 100% sure of how that's going to look like and that's actually okay. That's almost similar to how it was when we were opening up and exploring non-monogamy. It's like, you can have these ideals, you can have all of these plans, you can be like, "We're already non-monogamous and having this type of relationship and this type of separate dating, and when we're parents, it'll be like two months and then we'll be back doing it again." It's like, that's just not really realistic.
I think the way that we approach things was like, "Parenthood is going to change and rock our world in intense ways, and amazing ways, and loving ways. We can't really put a script on how it's going to go, but let's really just be in the moment with everything and also appreciate the beautiful chapter that parenting is and not try and rush back into that non-monogamy headspace earlier than what felt right for us." Just like surrendering into that.
I think having that type of approach was really good for us and just not putting too many expectations of it. During the pregnancy as well, we actually were quite monogamous in that time, so we were open, and then we closed off during the pregnancy and then postpartum. I think it was until around six months after, yes, when our son was about six months, we started to explore non-monogamy again as it felt right.
Emily: I think a lot of criticism of a nuclear family tends to be that it is rather isolating and it's difficult for people to have any sort of identity outside of just the small insular configuration that that brings. Would you say being non-monogamous, has it been easier to break free of that? Is it more a situation where it takes a village and you have the opportunity to have bits of co-parenting with multiple people than just the two of you?
Liam: Yes. For me, I feel like being non-monogamous actually makes me a better parent in a way that I feel that it feeds into our relationship. Ultimately, it actually uplifts us as people and then that flows into the parenting. I think that is something actually that going back to your question, Dedeker, as well is that it really surprised me that I didn't really have a perception of that before becoming a parent, that there would be a relationship between being a good parent and also being happily non-monogamous, and how they can both really feed into each other.
For instance, often, if one of us are going on a date, for example, when we're separately dating, we have an amazing date, we come back home, we're feeling energized, we're feeling ready to get into the chaos of home life, and it does give us a sense of a little bit of escapism, I guess, in some ways. I think, certainly, Abbey and I have chatted a lot about for her as a mother, I think it's been amazing for her identity not to be just wrapped up in being a mother. There is this sense of, she can be celebrated as her own whole self on top of being an incredible mother as well.
Dedeker: This is getting ahead a little bit because I am remembering that we got a lot of questions in particular. I didn't include a specific question about this in this episode, but people really wonder, and I think sometimes struggle with, but how do you resolve the labor imbalance that can happen when it's like, "You're going out on a date and I'm at home with the kids"?
Especially for a lot of people, it's not always a very balanced situation where you have your outside partner and I have my outside partner, and so we can find a way to balance that equally. It might be, I have a long-established outside partner and you're just going on first dates, or you have very new relationships. Those require a different time commitment than the established partner. What have you discovered about what's worked for that balance when one of you is out of the house?
Abbey: Yes. I think when our son was a baby and I started-- when I felt ready to venture out and have this separate dating again, it was very much like connecting in with a partner who was a previous partner from when before I became a mom. It was really wonderful to connecting with him again, but I didn't feel like I wanted to go out and date too often or anything like that. It was very much sort of as I was able to because it's like, when you do have a baby, and you are in that stage, that newborn, that young infant stage, it's like, I was so drawn to being with my son. That's actually where I wanted to be, and for a long time.
I only had my first night away from our son when he was two and a half years old. That was completely great for me because I didn't want to be away from him. I wanted to be with him. For Liam to go out on a date and to see somebody is like, I'm happy for him to do that and for him to have that time because I'm also like, I actually wanted to be with our son. There are imbalances sometimes, but it's like, I think it really depends on how you're feeling with that and what you want. I was really happy with that.
Liam and I, we are non-monogamous and we have ongoing connections with people that can span for years and years and still do. We are not polyamorous in the sense that we have very intense regular partners who we would see multiple times a week, who would be really looking for this shared building of a life together. We are not that style of polyamory. For us, there also a flexibility in that, which feels quite just practical for how we are in our life. That's not something that comes up too much for us, I feel.
Liam: Yes. Ultimately, it just comes down to communication. I think that there's definitely times where, obviously, resentment can happen, and of course, that does happen. If you are going out on a date, I think being aware that your partner could obviously have these feelings of resentment, and they might start to rise, and to almost approach that before the date even happens.
Just ensuring good communication has really helped us, because there's definitely been times where we've had a really intense busy week logistically with our son, and then it comes Friday night, and the date has been on the calendar for quite a while, and we have to almost pre-chat about the feelings that we're going to feel after the date, because there is probably going to be a little bit of lingering resentment of, "I did all the drop-offs this week, and now you are off having this crazy date," but it's something that I think can be easily managed by just lots of communication, over-communicating.
Dedeker: Sure. Of course. With that, I'm going to transition us into our listener questions, but first, a quick disclaimer that we've spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but we're not perfect and we're not mind readers. The advice given here is based solely on the limited information sent into us. Please take it with a grain of salt. Everybody's situation is unique. We encourage you to use your own judgment, to seek professional help if needed.
These questions have been edited for time and clarity. Then also a quick note that some people sometimes submit their questions with just letters as a stand-in for somebody's name. We appreciate you making the effort to protect people's privacy. In an audio format, just using letters ends up being difficult to understand. I have subbed in some names for some of these questions. If I accidentally got the real name, please don't get mad at me. 100%, none of these names are meant to be identifying. I just picked them at random to make the question easier to understand. There, that's the end of the disclaimer.
Emily: These questions come from our wonderful subscribers and our community. This first question was the most popular question that we got. About 600 people asked this question. It is, "How do I talk to my kids about being non-monogamous?" The context for this question is, "I have been with my wife for 18 years, and we've been poly for 2 years. My wife Janice has dated some, but ultimately decided it's not what she needs right now. I met Shirley really quickly, and we've been dating for two years.
Initially, my motivation for opening up was about sex, but after about six months, Shirley and I fell in love. Janice and Shirley have met and it went well, but they don't hang out and we're not near kitchen tabling yet. Janice and I have a 12-year-old kiddo who knows that I have a friend named Shirley who she's met and we hang out about once a week.
If I sleep over at Shirley's, I'll tell kiddo we're going out late and I'm going to stay the night for safety, so I'm not driving home late. I don't know if we should come out to her now or later or if I want to, or if it would be good for her or, or, or. What are the considerations when coming out to kids? What should I be asking myself? What's a good way to do it? How do you keep your business from getting spread all over school without making your child keep a secret?" This is signed, Perplexed Parent.
Jase: Perplexed Parent uses they/them pronouns.
Emily: Yes, Perplexed Parent. A lot of people seem to be stuck at introducing a partner as like "mom's friend" and then not really sure where to go from there, or so-and-so's friend. Give us some insight here.
Abbey: Yes. This is something that we actually talk about often because we're not at this stage yet of sharing with our son that we are non-monogamous. He's six years old. What we're doing, and of course, everything is always at an age-appropriate time, but sharing with our son and discussing relationships that they can look many different ways. Like, our son has a queer auntie. We share about that. There's many different ways to have a relationship. They're in love. There are some people that they have different partners.
We recently had a guest on our podcast who has two husbands. After we had that chat with this person on our podcast, we were talking to our son and we said this, "This lady, she actually has two husbands." He said, "Wow, two husbands. That's so interesting." Just normalizing that. I think for 12 years of age, I think it would be very much what I would probably do is just let the child lead the questions if they have any questions. Just coming with those gentle answers in a way that actually still builds that sense of security in the relationship of the parents, because I think, as a child, you just want to know that everything's okay and there's not going to be a breakup.
I think around 12 years of age, probably, in the school environment, there would be other families that are going through breakups, and of course, there is all of the conditioning with, if there is somebody else on the scene, a new partner, that means a breakup must be coming. I think first and foremost, coming at that place of, "We are in a stable relationship, we're happy, we're a family. We're a together family. We also are open to special connections with other people that are a little bit different to a friendship. If you have any questions about that, you can always come and talk to me about it," but of course, I wouldn't go into talking about my sex life or anything like that because a child wouldn't want to hear about that.
Liam: I think there is also a difference in the way that we come out to adults and the way that we come out to children. I know when we talked to Eli Sheff about this, she made some really wonderful points that allowing the child to lead the coming out is a really great way to do it. Actually, almost asking the the child for consent in a way of like, "Would you be interested in hearing about our relationship?" It's not a question of, "Let's sit down at the dining room table and we're going to have this big revelation," and then this kid has to deal with this emotional landscape of everything.
I think it's a really generous thing to do, especially for a kid who's entering their teenage years and is extremely sensitive to the dynamics of everything, not just their parents' relationship, is to say, "Are you in a place where you feel like you want to receive this information, and how much of the information? Do you want to know everything? Do you want to know some of it? Do you just want to know a sprinkle?" I think the best thing to do if they do say, "I would actually like to know," is to say, "You can ask us anything. Obviously, if it's appropriate, we're not going to be oversharing with you, and we're going to share what we feel is appropriate as well, but if you do have questions, we are open to fielding them for you."
Dedeker: Do you have any anxieties about these ongoing conversations with your son? Do you have any questions that you dread that he's going to ask someday?
Liam: I think the biggest anxiety that we have with our son is not actually between his relationship with us and our relationship with him. We feel really strong in our connection with him. I think the anxiety actually comes from other people around him, within his life, particularly at school, and for the stigma around open relationships and the stigma around anything that looks different to heteronormative relationship.
I think that is where a lot of the anxiety when we talk about this together is we think, "Oh my goodness, wouldn't it be awful if one of his kids said, 'You can't come to my house because your parents are poly or your parents are non-monogamous'?" I think that is deeply sad, and it is sadly something that does happen. I think the importance of talking about open relationships and non-monogamy and all the work that you do and all the work that we try to do to normalize these conversations, I think, hopefully, that will filter down eventually to the parents of the kids at school and eventually from the parents to the kids.
Dedeker: That actually perfectly sets up our next question, which is literally about that.
Jase: Yes. The follow-up question, it was not actually a follow-up question, but it could have been, which is, "How do you approach having conversations with other parents? For example, other parents at school about non-monogamy. We have a lovely and inquisitive eight-year-old daughter who tends to pick up things pretty quickly. We have our vague cover stories about hanging out with friends, but we also suspect, at some point, she will realize what's going on. As we prepare for either telling her one day or having her find out, we've been a little bit hung up on one of the details.
One of our concerns is for any parents of her friends that find out through her. Other parents may not be as understanding and may forbid her from hanging out with their kids or worse. We want to teach her to be authentic and as transparent as she wants to be with people, but also advise her that this information may not be conducive to her social life at school. Is it just as easy as letting her know you probably don't want to share this with your friends, or how can we communicate that when the time comes?" This is from Prognosticating in Portland. We also got a very similar version of this from Incredulous in Indiana. Lots of good sign-off names.
Liam: Brilliant.
Abbey: Wow. Yes, I would say with a situation like this, when sharing with a daughter about this, she's curious, she's going to be picking up on things. They're having other partners around. She might be witnessing the affection that's happening. Children know. They do see, they do pick up on things. I would say with the conversation, not to instill any fear or anything, but just say, "Not everybody would understand the care that we have in our family for our partners or for our friends."
It is something to be aware of. If you are sharing with friends, they might have a bit of a reaction to it because they might not understand. They might not know many people that have relationships in this way. If you want to talk to me about it, please do. As Liam said, we can have the conversation and all of that. When it comes to the friends of parents, we're in a little bit of a different situation because we are out there, we're podcasting, people know. People know in our sons, in the school community.
Liam: At school drop-off, I'm pretty sure no parent doesn't know that we've been on national TV talking about open relations.
Dedeker: I wanted to ask about that, but this is another layer of coming out. It's not just, this is our personal life, but this is also a little bit of our vocation as well.
Liam: In a way, coming out in such a public way for us was actually easier than having really delicate discussions with your child, and then it feeds into this gossip mill that can sometimes happen in the schoolyard. All the parents looking. I know Abbey was at a coffee shop recently and there were some parents around from the school and she was like, "You became paranoid that they were looking over at you," and you were like, "Oh, I bet they're talking about the fact I'm in an open relationship."
Abbey: Yes, That did happen. I think, Liam and I, we've taken on this idea of we're really going to own the narrative. We don't feel like we have anything to be ashamed for about this. With other parents, if we're talking, just saying-- we're in a different spot, so I say, "Oh, we do have a podcast about this." "Oh, what's the podcast about?" That's where we're at. I think if we are thinking about normalizing it, but letting people know, it's not going on about it or it has to be a big announcement.
I was with my other partner this weekend and then waiting for someone to be like, "Oh, is that your other--" What does that mean, your other partner? Just mentioning it in that way, owning the narrative, because I think people can get very caught up when it's like a secret. That's when it's this gossipy thing, but when you're just standing in your truth with it, if you can, not everybody can, that's the thing. That can be very tricky.
I think as far as the daughter, just explaining that not everybody will connect and understand and that that's okay, doesn't mean that there's anything wrong that's happening. There's nothing wrong or unethical or hurtful or harmful. Really instill that. Even though it's not that way, people might still have a little reaction to it as well. That if to the friend, if the friend is saying different things, hurtful things to say to the daughter, "Your friend's parents, they can come and talk to me, or would you like me to reach out to them," and just let them know that everything's okay?
Liam: If I can jump off that, one thing that I think is really important, and maybe it's a more broader comment on parenting in general, but we have this tendency, and we often feel this pull as well, is to wrap our kids in bubble wrap and no negative thing can possibly be said around them. Then that runs the risk of actually not building resilience in your child. Our children are going to have difficult conversations with their friends, not about our relationship, but just in general.
I think if you come to accept that, at some point, our kids are going to have difficult conversations, we can give them all the tools, hopefully, that they can go into those conversations and communicate it beautifully and in good faith, I think they will be able to these conversations about if the parents are in the schoolyard talking about non-monogamous other parents, they can go, "Oh, everyone's different, and there's different ways to have relationships."
Emily: I think as adults, at least, and I understand that I'm coming at this from that lens, we can understand and recognize who is safe to speak about a certain thing and who isn't necessarily. I don't know if that's also something that children can perceive or understand from a young age that, "Oh, this person has two moms," for instance, and so they may be more open to the idea of something non-normative, and therefore, they are safer to come to or talk about more openly about this kind of thing.
That becomes challenging potentially because, of course, as adults, we do also have to navigate the fact that some people are safer than others. Some people, we do choose to be out towards, and others, we don't. It's just interesting having a young person potentially have to navigate that as well, but also what lessons can be learned from having to do that.
Liam: Yes, something that we found when we're coming out to other parents is that often the parents that you don't think would be receptive to something like this are actually the parents who are really receptive. Our compass for knowing that is probably as off as our child's compass. It's actually so difficult. We've come out to people who are deeply religious across all faiths, and they have been some of the most accepting people. These are the people that we are actually most afraid to talk to, in particular, parents of friends of our son.
If we can come out in those situations and then be received with love and kindness, it does make you question, even if you approach any conversation with anyone in the appropriate way, is everyone a safe person? Now, of course, obviously, there's people that are less safe than others, for sure. I think if you trust your intuition, potentially that's a good guiding mechanism, but ultimately, you might be surprised about who receives it wonderfully.
Jase: Definitely had that experience with my own coming out as well. Initially, I was surprised by some of the people I thought would be cool with it who were a little bit weird, not bad-bad, but just a little weird. Others that I thought would be weird were totally cool with it. Yes, not always what you expect.
Dedeker: I'm going to move us on to the next question, which is, "How do I be a mom and date? My wife and I have two kids, six, and," the way they've written it is less than one.
Jase: Six and less than one.
Dedeker: Six and less of one. "I label her description of herself as some kind of gray ace, and for the past five-ish years, we haven't had a sexual relationship. I'm an introverted demisexual with a high sex drive, which is tricky to begin with, but doesn't go great with a non-sexual anchor relationship. I adore our relationship as it is, but I also want to keep exploring sex somewhere in my life. We're both poly in theory, but neither of us has ever had much of a relationship with other people. I've been trying to get out and meet people, but it feels so hard. It's hard to find time, to find energy, and to get in the headspace.
I don't know how to get out of parent mode and go on a date. So much of dating involves texting and messaging, which I feel like I can't do from the couch while my kid is watching Mickey Mouse. My head is in the wrong place. Also, I'm breadwinner mom, and she's full-time mom, so any non-work time I spend not moming feels a bit unfair. How do you square things so you can be a parent and take time just for yourself without unfairly depending on a partner to carry your share of parenting for you?" That was sent in by Wanting More in Western Massachusetts.
Abbey: Wow. Yes. Okay, so I really connect with this. There is definitely, when you're a parent, you can feel you're so caught up, you're so busy, there's so much happening, and it's in your head, it's all over you. Also that feeling of being super touched out as well with kids. They're just constantly-- you're always tending to them, there's the hugs. Especially with a baby that is less than one, it's very, very full on.
I think, for me, I can only think back to my own experiences with this and how I navigated things. I remember, our baby, when he was one, around that time, just holding him so much and being so involved and so in that head space where it really is tunnel vision and you're very, very tired, and you're giving so much to your baby who you love so much and you want to be doing that.
There is that thing. It's very hard to switch zones and immediately come into this sexual place and all of that. I think something that was really important to me was trying to actually, instead of walking from putting on one outfit or persona of who you are as a parent, then stepping into the sexual space or the dating space, was actually really valuing some decompression time as well, if you can.
Actually, scheduling that in as if it were its own date, actually having a bit of that time for yourself, because it's like just going from that you're in that Narnia in the wardrobe, then straight into the other world and just having a bit of buffer in between, to center yourself and exhale. You have to have that time to exhale to then be able to step into the new space.
As far as navigating and balancing that with another partner as well, which has different needs and is coming from a really different place with this, I think, gosh, we say it all the time, but communicate so much about that. Also, what it means and how would this also be energizing to the relationship as well, and what would dating somebody else-- How could that look then coming back into the family life?
As Liam said earlier, being non-monogamous can be incredibly energizing and it's that beautiful energy of being seen as a person beyond in that family parenting role can bring such an aliveness and excitement that, when you then come back home into that space, you can be so much more energized and uplifted as well. Of course, it's that balance, because it's not always perfect and we're not always going to be feeling like it's that and there will be difficulties and resentments and things. I think there's definitely a way to navigate that.
Liam: There's also a way, as a supporting partner, as well, to really make sure that you can support the mother. Obviously in this situation, there's two mothers. I think especially with this particular question, there is that difference in desires for sexual connection, I think, which the question asker spoke to. I think, if you are the person who doesn't have that really high sex drive, and your partner does want to go out and date, there is a way as a partner that you can support that, I think. That's something certainly that I felt really strongly about when Abbey was starting to explore, again, as a mother, explore non-monogamy.
I really wanted her to feel supported and to alleviate any kind of shame that could potentially come up. I didn't want Abbey to feel, "Oh my goodness, I'm a bad mother now because I'm taking a moment for myself." Self-care can look different. It can look like going on a date. It can look like going to the movies by yourself. There's so many different ways to do it. I think, as a partner, to support that, and to try and alleviate any guilt that is probably going to come up for the mother, I think that's really important as well.
Jase: This is making me think about some experiences I had when my best friend and his wife had a kid, and this was during the pandemic as well. They had their kid the year before. Their childcare all disappeared, all of this happened all at once. I was trying to, one, get to see my godson a lot, then also to help out and realize they were in a tough situation and my work had been cut way back because of the pandemic. I was trying to go over there, but I remember that, especially the mom, she would really struggle sometimes to let herself relax.
I remember I was over there and we were playing with the baby together, then at one point, she was like, "I'm so sorry, but could you please watch him for just a second so I can go pee, because I haven't in six hours?" or whatever it is. I was just like, "Yes, of course. That's why I'm here, or that's part of why I'm here. Yes, absolutely." I think that there can be so much of that sense of guilt even in that short-term, stepping away for even a moment means I'm failing or I couldn't possibly foist this on somebody else to have to take care of this kid.
It's been an ongoing thing with them of needing to remind them both, like, "No, I'm good. I'm happy to stay here and watch him for a second if you need to just eat or drink some water or whatever it is."
Liam: Oh, yes. I remember, in the first year of our son's life, we were living in New York City. I'm a musician, I was playing a lot of gigs, and so often, I'd be away for the whole weekend basically out doing gigs. Abbey would have friends come over to look after our son just so she could have a shower, because it's just so intense. Especially if you have that balance where your partner's not around as much and unable to help all the time with the child-rearing, or it's in the pandemic, or whatever the circumstances might be, there is so much bandwidth that gets taken up by parenthood. Maybe that's something that did surprise us as well.
Everyone tells us like, "Oh, just you wait, when you have a kid, everything's going to change." You can conceptually think about that, looking forward, but until you are in the weeds and you're on a bouncing ball in the shower, you're running the shower, because that's the only way your kid will go to sleep and you're wearing them in the front pack. Then Abbey's trying to get half an hour sleep because she's got to get up in half an hour to do the breastfeeding. To then have the bandwidth on top to go, "Oh, let's be non-monogamous," it's a lot.
Dedeker: I have a question about that, because Abbey, you mentioned that, for you, after your baby was born, it was around six months that then you were like, "Okay. Now I think I'm ready to explore and get back into this." What was that moment like for you? How did you know?
Abbey: The timing worked out really well. The person who I went on a date with was somebody who I had previously been dating before we were pregnant and he had moved back overseas to London. He happened to be back in New York, he was visiting. It was sort of this he's in town, we'd love to catch up. Of course, we had a catch-up with him and he met our baby, we went to the park and all of that.
Then we were thinking, "Oh, it would be great to have a date." What would the logistics of that look like with a small baby who I'm breastfeeding on demand? All of attachment, wearing him, holding him skin to skin, all of this, I just wanted to be with him all of the time. Having the support of Liam was really fantastic, because as Liam was talking before about guilt and shame and concern that a parent can have to step away from their child. Liam said, "Everything will be fine. If you want to go on the date, I fully support you, but let's make this as anxiety-free as possible."
I didn't want to be too far away from my son in case something came up or he needed me, and just so that I could relax. This darling man who I was on the date with, he was very understanding of everything and was so flexible, "Whatever works for you, whatever." We're living in Brooklyn. Of course, there's an apartment, there's a bar very close by. I got ready and did my last breastfeeding.
Everything was very flexible timing-wise, because you don't know what might come up. My date, he was close by at the bar waiting for me. Then did the last breastfeed, handed our son to Liam, then went and enjoyed the date. Liam said, "Look, don't check your phone. If there's anything wrong, I will call you, and if I can't get through to you, I'm going to call your date, so you just don't have to worry. Just be in the moment, everything will be fine."
I went to the date, we had an amazing time, and it felt surreal. I was like, "Who am I?" I am dressed up, I've got makeup on, I'm nervous. I'm so excited to have this one-on-one time with him.
Dedeker: I don't have a baby on me.
Abbey: I don't have a baby on me. I was walking into the bar and I just had this connection to myself again. Not that I'm not myself as a mother, it's just I was having that taste of what it was like before. It was very empowering for me and it was a very exciting moment and I felt very nervous. Then I was able to relax into it, because I knew everything was fine and I also wasn't having to navigate any relationship issues around this with Liam. It was full encouragement, because if there had been one moment where Liam had said, "Have fun," or, "Okay, I guess, enjoy, we'll just be waiting," in no way would I have gone. It's like mothers or parent, you can already feel that guilt. There was none of that.
There was just like, "This is important for you. Go, I've got this." I went and had the date, and it was just amazing. Then darling Liam, so sweet, got the apartment already, then put our son in the front pack and took him for a walk. We lived near Prospect Park, so we took our son through a walk around the park and he messaged and said, "He's going to be asleep now for a few hours. If you do want to extend the date and go back up to the apartment, that's totally great."
It just meant so much to me, and it was really so wonderful to connect with my partner who I hadn't spent time with for a really long time. It was just a really beautiful moment. Having all of that support from Liam just made it feel really positive and was just like this remembrance, this awakening that it can be both things. I can be mothering and fully in that world, but actually, it's okay to go and have those moments because everything was fine. My child is totally well cared for by his parent. It was just really exciting.
Dedeker: Well, I feel like my first takeaway is to co-parent with a Liam. Find a Liam.
Jase: Yes, find a Liam.
Emily: Co-parent with someone freaking awesome.
Dedeker: That's the first piece of advice. Second thing, have the two of you dated anybody who hasn't been as flexible and understanding?
Liam: I would say no, but not in very obvious ways. I think the reality of people's circumstances when they go into dating, and sometimes it can be an age thing, but it's not necessarily tied to age, but often, if we're dating someone who is younger and doesn't have kids, or doesn't have many friends who have kids-- At one point, a few years ago, I was dating a 25-year-old and she was amazing but it's one of those things where it's just not in their consciousness to think about what your life is like as a parent.
It can be really simple. It can be like, "Hey, in two hours, I'm going to this bar. Do you want to come on a date? Let's hang out." We're thinking, "Of course, we can't do that." That's insanity. We have so many things. We have to get a babysitter. There's so many moving parts that we have to arrange into this perfect situation and scenario that we can get away. There's really subtle things, but thankfully, everyone has been so wonderful about us being parents and really supportive and understanding.
In reality, a partner who doesn't have kids, who's dating someone who does have kids, they have to be a little bit more flexible and they have to be open to things coming up at the last minute, like the kid is sick, and it might not be an excuse just to get out of a date. The kid could actually be sick and you have to just drop everything.
Abbey: I think, in those pre-conversations, if we are dating people, you can get a sense of where people are at and what their expectations are as well. That's also us seeing if we would be compatible with them and if they're compatible with us. If somebody is coming to us and they're saying, "Okay, well I'm polyamorous and this is what I really need and I really need to feel prioritized as much in the sense of how you are with Liam and your family, and that I can see you as much as often," or things like that, that would be not compatible for me.
Very early on, I would pick up on that and say, "I'm not really sure if we're the right fit, because I am very tied in with my family life and I would love to see you when we can." Also, you having your date, your other partners, and your things going on and an inner sense of a security within yourself that if something comes up and a cancellation does happen, that that's not going to impact you in a very upsetting way. Because as a parent, you can't promise that things won't come up, as Liam said, because they just do.
Jase: Absolutely. I think Dedeker and I have experienced this with a lot of our friends. We've recently suddenly have a lot of friends with kids.
Dedeker: It's that time of life. It's that chapter.
Jase: It's that thing of just, suddenly, we just always have to take our plans with a grain of salt because they could cancel last minute because of a kid being sick or a kid having to run to the hospital or any number of things. Then also at the same time, being a little flexible where it's like, I'll get a text. It's like, "Hey we actually ended up stopping at this pizza place that's near where you live. We'll be there in half an hour. Feel free to join us if you can." Being the more flexible one in that case, I was like, "Yes, sure, I could drive over there for that."
Needing to be a little more adaptable. That makes a lot of sense that that same thing would apply in dating. I did want to come back to this question here from Wanting Moore in Western Massachusetts, before we go on to our last question of the day, which was, in this case, the question asker was saying that she is the breadwinner mom and that her wife is the full-time mom.
For her, some of the guilt comes from that she's not already the one doing all of that. I wonder if there's maybe anything we could offer in that situation. Is there anything that you could be doing or trying to facilitate for your partner so that they also get that time to themself? They feel like they're also getting that even if they're not using that to go on a date and you are.
Abbey: Yes. With this situation, I think that breadwinner mom, even though her wife doesn't want to-- I think, if she doesn't want to date, it's a different type of situation, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that she wouldn't go and do something that was really special for herself. Go and take that time or go and spend some time with friends or have an activity or just have a day to have a rest in a park and read a book and all of these things that can seem very simple and not a big deal, but when you're a parent, it actually is a really big deal.
I think it's not so much whether it's a date or not a date, but it's like, "I value you and I value your time and I appreciate what you're doing. Raising children and being at home with the kids, that is work, and I want to give you also some reprieve from that to do something that's for you." The breadwinner mom is going to be going on a date and that is something that is for her.
It looks different. It's not the same because it's not the non-monogamous type situation, but it's like, it is self-care time. Maybe offering that and almost prioritizing that first. That was something that we did when we started dating again after we had our son. I started separate dating first again, and Liam really encouraged that for me because I'm in that different head space to him. He's out working, he's gigging, he's having social connections more so than I am. I am, but with other parent friends, but he's more out in the world. It was important for him to help encourage me to go out into the world before he went back into separate dating again.
Liam: I think that's fantastic, but also for the breadwinner mom to also realize that her role as winning all the bread is an important one too. She is still deserving of great, beautiful experiences. I guess it goes back to the way you view relationships, but certainly, in a relationship like Abbey and myself, we view everything as a team. We are working together as a team.
Of course, there's going to be times where someone's winning more bread or someone's doing more of the child-rearing or there's more housework being done by someone and just knowing that it is a push and pull, and there's always going to be some kind of disparity in all sorts of different things. Everyone is deserving. It's really just a way, as Abbey said, of figuring out a way that everyone can feel appreciated in their own way.
Dedeker: It makes me think of Eve Rodsky in her Fair Play book. She talks about this concept of the four-hour vacation and this idea of both partners/parents working together to make sure that we're able to carve out that each person has access to their own four-hour vacation, essentially, whether that happens once a week or once a month or something like that. This idea that you're both working together to make sure that each of you has access to this time, that's set aside, that's not just for catching up on the laundry and it's not for, "Oh, I got to drag myself to the gym," and it's not, "I got to sit down and get this paperwork together or whatever."
That it truly is this time to think about creative projects or do really good self-care or dive into an activity or go on a date or things like that. I think it's really important, even if you don't have kids, that you're in partnerships where people care about that for you and that you care about that for the other person. That just seems really fundamental.
Liam: I love that idea of the four-hour vacation. I feel like we should implement that. I think that's great for everyone to think about. It's fantastic.
Emily: Absolutely. All right, let's get into the final question of the day. How can we blend our families in a poly-friendly way? My partner and I have been single-parenting our kids in different states for a few years, and we're now living in the same state. As a queer and poly couple, we are comfortable doing things outside the norm. We're working on setting up non-traditional living situation where we'll be next door to each other, each with our respective kids.
We want to get married and share co-parenting responsibilities while also having our own spaces. Polyamory has been a great way to break out of default assumptions and build a life that meets our unique needs. However, both the mono-normative resources around blending families and the examples I've seen of polyamorous married folks raising kids, assume that both parents are living with all the kids.
The examples I've seen of polyamorous couples who are committed but have more separation and independence than the typical relationship escalator situation are almost never co-parenting together. We want the kids to feel the support of two parents. We want to be able to support each other in co-parenting decisions and tag team when things get tough, and we want to foster a positive relationship between all the step-siblings, but we also want to maintain some independence and autonomy in our relationship.
Aside from the logistical considerations, what suggestions do you have for facilitating this non-traditional blending of families? That signed, "We can share a life, but not a kitchen." It's very unique and specific.
Liam: Yes. Well, I think this particular person and the person who asked this question, I think they're actually doing a lot of the work already. Even in the question, it seems like they feel comfortable having this very non-traditional approach. Really, it might be a question of just making sure that they can remove as much stigma in their own mind from having this sense of a non-traditional approach and also prepare their children for this non-traditional approach in the best way possible.
Before going into this new living arrangement and that kind of thing, is having those conversations that their kids are fully aware of the approach that the parents are going to be taking and the approach in which these are how the practical arrangements are going to work. Even if we're not sharing a kitchen, we're going to all have lunches on Sundays or there's going to be ways in which things get brought together if that's what people want.
I think it is about having those conversations. I feel like a lot of the things shared in that question, this person is already doing so much fantastic work about figuring out what they really want within their parenting structure, because it sounds extremely intentional.
Abbey: I agree. Listening to that, I'm listening and I'm thinking, "I don't really hear what the issue is around this." It sounds actually really lovely and pleasant. As far as practicalities, I think they said something about they want to live next door from each other or something like that. My mind goes to that TV drama, Big Love, where they've got the houses all across, but they have the gates.
Liam: Shared backyard or something.
Abbey: Yes, they have the shared backyards and things like that. People often have asked us, "Oh, would you ever live with other partners?" or, "Would you ever want to live in some sort of group situation?" I've said I wouldn't want to do that but if we ever found ourselves in a situation where we were that close with other partners in this very ongoing commitment that's quite intense and perhaps lifelong, houses close by would be the ideal as people who feel very independent.
I think that actually this situation sounds really amazing for this setup as well, because, for the relationship, it's so lovely to have that space where they can come and go and not be fully in the domestication of each other's life and the domestication with each other's children as well. It's like they can come together and have those family times and have that sense of being together, but also having that distance and having that space. It's like, isn't that the perfect balance of desire and family life as well? I don't know. I think it sounds pretty good.
Jase: Yes. I remember, years ago, when I was a hairstylist, I had some clients that were a heterosexual couple and their daughter, they were all my clients. I learned, just through the conversations you have as a hairstylist, that they lived separate from each other down the street. It was that same, like the daughter-- The daughter was, I think, a young teenager or something, so old enough to be able to walk herself between the two houses.
I just remember, for me, at the time, this would've been back in 2008 or something like that, that it was this, "I've never heard of anyone doing something like that, and it sounds really nice. It sounds really cool. You guys have got something nice going on here." They were also very intentional about it. I don't know if non-monogamy was part of that equation or not. That was not something they shared with me.
I remember just being so struck by how interesting and cool of a setup that is, that they were both able to have their space that they wanted but still create this environment for their daughter where it's like, "Oh, but my family's all here." It's not quite like what I experienced as a child of divorce where it's like, "Oh, well, I'll spend these two months in the summer with dad across the country and then the school year with mom on the other side of the country." That, instead, it's like, oh, you've got the two houses but they feel more, I guess-
Dedeker: Connected.
Jase: -unified in a way, or more connected because they're so close to each other.
Dedeker: Yes. I find myself a little frustrated that I always wish that there were more resources specifically about the living apart together phenomenon. I think there's some reasons why there's not so many resources. One of them being that, depending on where you live, it's just not financially viable for some people to have two homes, which is unfortunate. That's a much bigger systemic issue because I really think that this is a really wonderful way for some people to do things.
Then I'm realizing there is a subreddit specifically for living apart together, but I'm realizing like many subredditors tend to go, it's a lot of people who it sounds like this has been imposed on them actually. One partner is really jazzed about living apart together, the other person's not. I'm seeing some parallels with the way that some non-monogamy subreddits can go.
Liam: Sure. Reddit is an exciting place with the best of times.
Dedeker: Exciting is a word for it, yes.
Emily: Indeed.
Liam: Yes, but it's also the way in which we view non-monogamous non-traditional relationships as well. I think, as you were saying, Jase, there's so many children of divorce and we're seeing this with our son's friends' parents. A lot of them are getting divorced now, and so they are actually in these arrangements where they're staying with one parent for a week and then another parent for another week.
It's like, from the outside, someone might look at this person who asked this question as, "This is crazy. They're non-monogamous and they've got separate houses and they're co-parenting and doing all these things," but actually that's a beautifully supportive way to do it when it's extremely intentional. The irony is, if you just flip this all around, there's actually so much strength that can come from, as all of us have been saying, from this particular situation, and so many beautiful things that this question asker might come across.
Emily: Many of us just didn't have the opportunity to constantly be around adults that enriched our lives at all times. I think the opportunity to not only get to see two people who are intentional about the ways in which they communicate, but also the fact that they can hold time for themselves and be autonomous and be independent individuals, I think a lot of people who are in family relationships don't get that either. They see everything as a unit. Having role models for that is also really extraordinary and something so unique and maybe something that we'll continue to see more of as time goes on.
Jase: In this situation, keeping in mind that each of these people has their own kids. I could also see this being great for those kids too, to be able to blend that family, but not like, "Oh, now I suddenly have this new sibling that's sharing a room with me," which I think is the typical story of people marrying and they both have kids. It's like, "Oh, great, now I have this sibling that I haven't spent my life getting to know and now suddenly they're living up in my space." Forcing that on your kids too. I could see, for them, this is the most amazing thing you could possibly do for them to keep their own space.
Liam: I think the most difficult part of this whole question actually comes in finding a place right next to another place that is both for sale.
Emily: Sure.
Jase: That's true.
Liam: That seems like such an-
Abbey: Pretty goldilocks.
Liam: -impossibility to me. As you were saying, Dedeker, it's like to have that living arrangement that's so inaccessible for so many people that if you do have the privilege to be able to have that arrangement, that's a beautiful thing in and of itself.
Dedeker: Well, as we wrap up here, first of all, to our listeners, if you're a non-monogamous parent and you're looking for more resources, we want to direct you to a couple of episodes in our back catalog as a place to start. If you go all the way back to Episode 171, that was when we first had a conversation with Dr. Eli Sheff. That was called Polyamory, Family, and Children.
You can go back to Episode 389. That was another listener Q&A. That one is called Struggling With Honesty and NRE. Our special guest for that one was Libby Sinback, who runs the Making Polyamory Work podcast, who is also a non-monogamous parent. They talk about that a lot in that episode. You can go check out our Episode 390, What It's Really Like to Be a Polyamorous Parent with Jessica Daylover from Remodeled Love. Abbey and Liam, can you tell our listeners how they can also find more of you and your work?
Liam: Wonderful. We have the Evolving Love podcast where we host lots of conversations with lots of fantastic people like yourselves who are recent guests on it as well. Then Abbey also has a substack where she publishes all of her writing. You can find that at evolvingloveproject.substack.com.
Abbey: Also have an Instagram page Evolving Love Project as well, for little shorter things that we share there. We also have a little meetup group in Canberra once a month and in Sydney as well, and different things going on too.
Dedeker: Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us for this and helping us out answering these questions that are really difficult for those of us without children to answer.
Liam: It was a pleasure to come and chat with you. Great as always.
Abbey: Thanks so much for having us on.
Emily: Thank you.